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Will old formats Apple in the future?

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Clint Wardlow
Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 25, 2011 at 7:38:54 pm

I did a fast and dirty music video for some friends not to long ago. Now the editing itself is quite doable in FCPX I'm pretty positive (though it's music video nature I would have had to set the audio track as a primary story I think).

What concerns me is the medium I was using. The video was sourced from an old VHS dub of an unreleased film I worked as a boom operator in the 90s. It was originally shot on Betacam.

I tweaked the rather raty video even more in Motion to give it the look of a bad smeary public domain print.







Now what concerns me about Apple's direction is the ability to work in old formats (which I do a lot for aesthetic reasons)will disappear or become increasingly harder. Maybe not. I don't know.

There are thousands of bad VHS or BETA tapes or 8mm & Super8 film lying around unclaimed that are a goldmine for someone like myself that loves to work with found footage. Currently it isn't that tough to transfer such material to digital (for analog video I use various decks and my old Sony FX1 camcorder).

However, with Apples move to tapeless in FCPX are such things going to be more difficult or perhaps (hope-hope) the new technology will make it easier. I'd really like to know.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 25, 2011 at 7:52:31 pm

Using a capture card and the proper drivers, you can can capture video without any NLE at all. You will need a capture card from AJA, Balackmagic, Matrox, etc, and the proper video deck.


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Clint Wardlow
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 25, 2011 at 8:04:53 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Using a capture card and the proper drivers, you can can capture video without any NLE at all. You will need a capture card from AJA, Balackmagic, Matrox, etc, and the proper video deck."

Thanks Jeremy. This is an area I really need to increase my knowledge. I have basically been using vintage decks and inputting them into my Sony camcorder to create DV tapes. Being able to capture directly onto my computer would be a big help. You think I would know more about this considering I shoot in many old formats from pixelvision to betacam.

So as long as companies like AJA and Blackmagic are around and I can dig up the hardware (which is becoming increasingly more difficult with stuff like Betamax decks) I am still okay.

Apple and FCPX has nothing to do with it.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 25, 2011 at 8:13:31 pm

[Clint Wardlow] "I have basically been using vintage decks and inputting them into my Sony camcorder to create DV tapes. "

Direct capture would save you having to go to DV first. You will need the deck, and you might need a Timebase Corrector depending ont he footage, but it's possible.

[Clint Wardlow] "Apple and FCPX has nothing to do with it."

I am sure in a few minutes, you will get someone on here that says you won't be able to capture tape into FCPX driectly, which is true, you will have to import after capturing. All capture companies now give away free software that will capture video without an NLE. Hopefully, the capture card companies with be able to hook right in to FCPX once "video monitoring" is available.

Jeremy


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Bill Davis
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 25, 2011 at 9:01:09 pm

Black Magic Design makes a little $150 dongle called the Video Recorder that takes analog composite video and audio via RCA and transcodes it directly to H-264 desktop files in a single step via any USB port.

Use any legacy deck with it you like.

Works great.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Kevin Patrick
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 25, 2011 at 11:14:00 pm

I haven't tried it myself, but ...

Doesn't FCP X support importing from tape based cameras/decks? Over firewire. Won't that work for you? Obviously you need to run your analog device through a firewire deck or camera. For VHS, I use a full size DV deck.

I think another issue is what to do when all your old stuff stops working. VHS, Video 8, Hi8. Back in the day, I made "movies" with my friends on 8mm sound film. A few years ago we got together, I pulled out my old Elmo projector and the drive belt broke. Melted a few frames. I couldn't find a replacement, but I'm not sure I would even risk it again. I finally got around to having them digitized. Shortly after that, I purchased one of Sony's Hi8 portable decks. It takes both Hi8 and 8 and has firewire. You can still buy them, but I wonder for how long. I started capturing my old family videos (which I've put off for years), shot on those formats. Now that I have over 3TB of that stuff on a RAID 5 array, I wonder how long that will last?

Perhaps I missed the point to your post. Are you concerned that Apple might drop the existing firewire capture capability that FCP X currently has? Making it much more difficult to capture your old analog stuff?

I don't think you have anything to worry about. Apple would never drop something like that. It's too import, to too many of their customers. Just imagine if they did. You'd be hosed.

Surely Apple would never do such a thing.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 25, 2011 at 11:44:29 pm

[Kevin Patrick] "Apple would never drop something like that. It's too import, to too many of their customers."

Famous last words...

George Armstrong Custer said something similar to his cavalry troops too, and look what happened to them.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Brian Mulligan
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 26, 2011 at 1:40:21 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "[Kevin Patrick] "Apple would never drop something like that. It's too import, to too many of their customers."

Famous last words...

George Armstrong Custer said something similar to his cavalry troops too, and look what happened to them.
"


I ask you to please explain, how exactly does your post "further" the ongoing discussion in any way other than to add unwanted or unneeded noise and distraction?

Brian Mulligan
Senior Editor - Autodesk Smoke
WTHR-TV Indianapolis,IN, USA
Twitter: @bkmeditor


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 26, 2011 at 5:36:39 pm

[Brian Mulligan] "I ask you to please explain, how exactly does your post "further" the ongoing discussion in any way other than to add unwanted or unneeded noise and distraction?"

Certainly Brian, I'd be happy to answer

Since it's crystal clear that Kevin's assumption is false (the EOL of Apple Color is just one of many examples that proves the point), it's only right to warn any unsuspecting readers that they should tread cautiously. Or would you wish even more unsuspecting customers blindly invest and wind up like Custer's cavalry?

BTW, I can always use the lemming metaphor next time if you prefer. Or, do I have to explain that one to you as well?

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Kevin Patrick
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 26, 2011 at 7:58:15 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "Kevin's assumption is false"

I probably shouldn't correct you, but ...

I believe my assumption was actually sarcastic.

(perhaps no better than being false)


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 26, 2011 at 9:58:30 pm

[Kevin Patrick] "I probably shouldn't correct you, but ...

I believe my assumption was actually sarcastic.

(perhaps no better than being false)"


Actually Kevin, I was going to write that, even if you were being sarcastic, I felt it necessary to alert unwary readers, just in case. I was actually hoping you were being sarcastic... :)

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Brian Mulligan
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 26, 2011 at 8:04:07 pm

You missed the subtlety. My post is a direct quote of your own words from a previous post aimed at me. I was simply trying got be difficult, as you seem to think that your words are the only words that deserve to be heard.

If I had posted a comment as yours, I am sure your holier-than-thou response would be, again, scolding me for adding nothing significant to the conversation.

I could really careless what your response to this post might be, as I doubt I will ever look at it or anything else with your name attached.

Brian Mulligan
Senior Editor - Autodesk Smoke
WTHR-TV Indianapolis,IN, USA
Twitter: @bkmeditor


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 26, 2011 at 10:05:39 pm

[Brian Mulligan] "You missed the subtlety."

Not at all Brian. I'm actually way ahead of you. If you think of something today, I probably thought of it last week.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Clint Wardlow
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 25, 2011 at 11:53:38 pm

[Kevin Patrick] "Perhaps I missed the point to your post. Are you concerned that Apple might drop the existing firewire capture capability that FCP X currently has? Making it much more difficult to capture your old analog stuff?"

I think my fear, assuaged somewhat by Jeremy, is that in the move to embrace all new and shiny technology, the rush towards a "tapeless" environment will make it impossible for folks like me that still embrace old technology as part of our palate. I consider myself an experimental filmmaker. I am not worried about loss of old analog tapes shot in the deep dark past, but stuff I create currently using old technology.

I still shoot using VHS or Betacam sometimes. I recently purchased a refurbished Mattel Pixelvision camera (but to be fair it was modified so it can record to another video source than the audio cassette originally used). I'll even occasionally shoot using my Beauleau 4008 super8 film camera. It is not necessarily all about visual clarity with me. I like the feel you can get with old video and film cameras. Each format has a distinctive look that often creates a mood I seek.

I realize that this kind of puts me as the odd man out here as I am not usually shooting or cutting for a "client." I create a lot of projection pieces for art openings and live band performances. Or I make many films that are not traditional or linear in nature. So I realize my needs are kind of specialized.

Sometimes I feel like one of those photographers that purposely works in large film formats and prints using wet collodion plates.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 26, 2011 at 1:09:04 am

You'll have to get a capture card. The good thing is, most capture cards will work on macs or windows, fcp legacy or PPro, even Avid, but less options on Avid, today, surely to change in the future. As has been mentioned, you can lay everything off to dv and use fcpx now.


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Greg Andonian
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 26, 2011 at 7:51:01 am

[Kevin Patrick]

"Perhaps I missed the point to your post. Are you concerned that Apple might drop the existing firewire capture capability that FCP X currently has? Making it much more difficult to capture your old analog stuff?

I don't think you have anything to worry about. Apple would never drop something like that. It's too important, to too many of their customers. Just imagine if they did. You'd be hosed.

Surely Apple would never do such a thing."



While I agree that firewire isn't going away anytime soon, I wouldn't be surprised if it did come to an abrupt, unwelcome end at some point, and much sooner than a lot of people would like.

If you don't believe that, just read that same quote above and replace firewire with Final Cut Pro 7 projects:


"Perhaps I missed the point to your post. Are you concerned that Apple might drop FCP7 project support entirely when FCPX comes out? Making it much more difficult to work with your old edited stuff?

I don't think you have anything to worry about. Apple would never drop something like that. It's too important, to too many of their customers. Just imagine if they did. You'd be hosed.

Surely Apple would never do such a thing."

______________________________________________
"THAT'S our fail-safe point. Up until here, we still have enough track to stop the locomotive before it plunges into the ravine... But after this windmill it's the future or bust."


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Chris Harlan
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 26, 2011 at 3:40:28 pm

Greg, I suspect that that was actually Kevin's point. At least, I took it to be. A bit of the old sarcasm, there, don't ya know.


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Rodney Clarke
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 11, 2012 at 12:13:21 am

To Kevin Patrick,
Sorry for the delay.I have been looking at Sony Hi8 digital 8 players and your article came up. Like you I have miles of Hi8 video to transfer to digital + 8mm/16mm film. Did your machine (GV-D800 or similar)do a transfer from Hi8 to digital without producing pixelation? I have transfered many Hi8 tapes using a little digital8 camera which converted to digital but unfortunately produced some sort of pixel oscilation,perhaps due to different field scanning. I did have a professional Hi8 deck but would not play some of the Hi8 tapes which sadly became problematical to play...and had no firewire.They became sticky to my horror. The little digital camera was the only machine which would even attemprt to play these tapes.At the time I was unaware of the Hi8/digital deck.I would love to overcome the pixelation/noise issue.

Another question which may not have an answer is the possibility of correcting the Hi8 colour shift on playback?

Rod Clarke
Scenografic Studio
Sydney.


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Kevin Patrick
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 11, 2012 at 12:18:49 pm

[Rodney Clarke] "Did your machine (GV-D800 or similar)do a transfer from Hi8 to digital without producing pixelation?"

The capture over firewire works fine. The digitized video looks the same as what I see when I playback the video from the deck to a TV. I get the same, original, low quality SD video, shot by someone who didn't know what they were doing at the time. (me)

I'm not sure if you can still get any of those Sony 8mm or Hi8 decks any more. If you can, they are a worth while investment.


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Rodney Clarke
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 11, 2012 at 9:51:42 pm

Thanks Kevin for your response.....a year and many letters later!
I was not sure if anyone would see this.

I think I am making some progress second time round.I dragged out my Sony EVO 9850P and apart from being a bit smelly it worked.I linked this to a little Sony DCR TRV460E handycam for the digital transfer.Sadly I can't get Final Cut to respond to the handycam even via Firewire for some reason,perhaps too old now. I will copy the tapes to a small DVCAM deck first. I bought the Hi8 deck second hand without a manual and cannot find any reference to Tracking switching. The menu button doesn't seem to do anything.

I had to laugh at your comment about your tape quality.Some of my 8mm film is excruciatingly bad to watch.I am going to have to rely on Final Cut to make it watchable!

Rod Clarke
Sydney


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Kevin Patrick
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 12, 2012 at 12:15:25 pm

Even capture now won't work over firewire?


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Rodney Clarke
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 12, 2012 at 11:50:20 pm

Final Cut said I could use capture now but there was no response.Perhaps I should have waited a bit? FC looked as if it knew there was something there.I will go back through my settings. The initiallising device band came up but did not move. I would have thought that a Sony firewire camera should have worked.Must be me.
I think my big Hi8 deck is getting too worn now but the picture does look marginally sharper played on this than in the Digital8 analogue/DV conversion camera.Tracking is an issue on my old deck and perhaps I should consider a more modern Hi8 player.

Rod


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James Culbertson
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 26, 2011 at 6:33:42 am

[Clint Wardlow] "Now what concerns me about Apple's direction is the ability to work in old formats (which I do a lot for aesthetic reasons)will disappear or become increasingly harder. Maybe not. I don't know."

Software support is the least of your worries.

I'd be more concerned about the gradual disappearance of decks and particularly the shelf life of tapes. Similarly, at some point the i/o device makers will stop supporting analog i/o I would assume.

Get them into a digital format now, because I doubt you will have a usable tape in 10-20 years.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 26, 2011 at 7:30:30 am

[James Culbertson] "I'd be more concerned about the gradual disappearance of decks and particularly the shelf life of tapes. Similarly, at some point the i/o device makers will stop supporting analog i/o I would assume.
"


Actually, I think you will find--if you take the time to consult vault managers--that tape has a far better shelf life than mechanical hard disks, and is still prized as the leading archival format, at least pre-Tsunami.


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Kevin Patrick
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 26, 2011 at 12:48:02 pm

I had a 25 year old VHS tape that I had to capture last year. I stuck it in a VCR hit rewind and it snapped.

I opened up the cassette, trimmed and tapped the tape back together, closed up the cassette and captured it.

Try that with a bad hard drive.


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James Culbertson
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 26, 2011 at 4:33:30 pm

[Chris Harlan] "Actually, I think you will find--if you take the time to consult vault managers--that tape has a far better shelf life than mechanical hard disks, and is still prized as the leading archival format, at least pre-Tsunami."

I was talking about magnetic tape. I assume you are talking about film? And if not, what magnetic tape format (including LTO) isn't toast after 20-30 years or so?

And yes, I know that HD's can die at any time, but what alternative other than HD archive redundancy do we have at this time other than converting back to film stock?


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Chris Harlan
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 26, 2011 at 7:42:40 pm

[James Culbertson] "I was talking about magnetic tape. I assume you are talking about film? And if not, what magnetic tape format (including LTO) isn't toast after 20-30 years or so?
"


So was I. Magnetic tape has a much longer average shelf life than a hard drive, which I think you will find, most vault managers will warn you will potentially fail within in a few years (as few as two) just sitting, unmoved, on a shelf. This observation is made without even factoring events like earthquakes, which, here in LA, are a common occurrence. I invite you to contact any major entertainment storage facility or studio vault and see if you get a different recommendation. I doubt you will. You will also find this opinion greatly seconded by many corporate IT leaders, who routinely backup and archive their networks on magnetic tape. I find, when it comes to program masters, that it is SOP with nearly all of my clients. Generally, everybody keeps both, with the tape as the safety. This may all change when/if EEPROM based SSD is ever as cheap as either tape or traditional hard drives.


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Kevin Patrick
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 26, 2011 at 7:53:43 pm

[Chris Harlan] "EEPROM"

Now there's a term I haven't heard in a while.

It seems to me, people assume SSDs are better. Better than HDDs.

But is that really the case? Does anyone know what the shelf life is of an SSD? Sitting untouched, without power for years?


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Chris Harlan
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 26, 2011 at 8:11:05 pm

[Kevin Patrick] "Now there's a term I haven't heard in a while.

It seems to me, people assume SSDs are better. Better than HDDs.

But is that really the case? Does anyone know what the shelf life is of an SSD? Sitting untouched, without power for years?
"


No moving parts, so probably. Huge accent on probably. No moving parts is a big plus, but diodes and transistors aplenty, all of which have shelf lives of their own. Here's an interesting bit on SSD drives:

http://dfarq.homeip.net/2010/10/ssd-myths/


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Jason Jenkins
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 27, 2011 at 4:18:22 pm

[Kevin Patrick] "It seems to me, people assume SSDs are better. Better than HDDs.

But is that really the case? Does anyone know what the shelf life is of an SSD? Sitting untouched, without power for years?"


I don't know about shelf-life, but the new & expensive SSD I put in my Mac Pro as a system drive only lasted 10 months before dying. Up 'til then, I had never lost a hard drive during my 11 years in this business.

Jason Jenkins
Flowmotion Media
Video production... with style!


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Chris Harlan
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 26, 2011 at 7:57:54 pm

As a side note for those who are curious, Sony's Tagajyo plant is back in production. If you never saw the damage, TVTechnology hosts a link to a good video report of it here:

http://tvtechnology.com/article/119938


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 26, 2011 at 7:58:24 pm

[James Culbertson] "And if not, what magnetic tape format (including LTO) isn't toast after 20-30 years or so?"

Yeah, it will be toast.

A good thing (and what I think is rather unique) about LTO is that an archive standard of two generations is built right in to the spec. This means an LTO 5 drive must read an LTO 3 tape. This allows leap-frogging of different LTO versions, but it does mean that every few tape generations, you will need to update your whole tape library.

Still 20-30 years on the shelf is better than 2-5.


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Clint Wardlow
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 26, 2011 at 3:47:38 pm

[James Culbertson] "I'd be more concerned about the gradual disappearance of decks and particularly the shelf life of tapes. Similarly, at some point the i/o device makers will stop supporting analog i/o I would assume.

Get them into a digital format now, because I doubt you will have a usable tape in 10-20 years."


This brings up a bigger issue (not one I am sure belongs in a FCPX Forum). The issue of archiving. With our move to digital and tapeless, how well is this going to bode for future preservation.

To illustrate my point--if you find a box of Grandma's 50-year-old negatives or 8mm films in a drawer, you still have the ability to print or play them.

In the future, if our grandchildren find a 50-year-old USB thumbdrive with a bunch of .jpg or .mov files are they going to be able to extract them. I hope so, but have a feeling all but the most important digital images will be lost in the ether over time.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 26, 2011 at 4:02:04 pm

[Clint Wardlow] "In the future, if our grandchildren find a 50-year-old USB thumbdrive with a bunch of .jpg or .mov files are they going to be able to extract them. I hope so, but have a feeling all but the most important digital images will be lost in the ether over time."

Ironically, we archive all of our digital formats back to tape (LTO).

What you are describing is a problem with digital formats in general (not just image formats, but all files). A format is only as good as the operating system/application that can read it. If you need specialized software to read a format and that software isn't around anymore, or perhaps the format is encrypted/encoded and the decoder has vanished, it might not be possible to retrieve that material.

I can pretty much guarantee that this world will not be going back to analog. Eventually it seems, all the film scanners will be busted and broken, and we won't be able to restore those as easily either.

Here's an awesome article about a huge media source that is having this very discussion right out in the open:

http://magazine.creativecow.net/article/hbos-digital-transition

And the state of film:

http://magazine.creativecow.net/article/film-fading-to-black

Jeremy


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Ian Bailey
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 26, 2011 at 8:26:28 am

Our Canopus ADVC-300 works fine with FCPX. Connected the box to the Mac via firewire and plugged a VHS deck into the box. In the Camera Import window, FCPX correctly identified the Canopus and knew it was an uncontrollable device that supplied DV pictures.


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Rafael Amador
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 26, 2011 at 9:14:55 am

The problem of all those formats won't be Apple, but finding desks to play the stuff.

Time to start to put things in HDs. I've already started with my more than 200 MiniDV tapes.

[Kevin Patrick] "Over firewire. Won't that work for you? Obviously you need to run your analog device through a firewire deck or camera. For VHS, I use a full size DV deck. "
That's OK for DV stuff,but you will only ad DV compression to any other format.

[Ian Bailey] "Our Canopus ADVC-300 works fine with FCPX. Connected the box to the Mac via firewire and plugged a VHS deck into the box. In the Camera Import window, FCPX correctly identified the Canopus and knew it was an uncontrollable device that supplied DV pictures."
The same.
That means to crunch to DV everything.
VHS and Betacam are compressed analog. Capture that as DV and you kill them.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Ian Bailey
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 26, 2011 at 12:32:09 pm

[Rafael Amador] "VHS and Betacam are compressed analog. Capture that as DV and you kill them."

I'll certainly breathe a sigh of relief when Blackmagic releases a Decklink plugin for FCPX. For our purposes importing VHS as DV is not an issue; importing Betacam and DigiBeta is however an entirely different matter.


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Rafael Amador
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 26, 2011 at 1:33:57 pm

[Ian Bailey] " For our purposes importing VHS as DV is not an issue; "
If is not an issue is OK, but people tends to think that because is already very compressed a bit of more compression won't hurt.
VHS is already a mistreated signal; Low horizontal resolution, Reduced Luma, "Color Under" and all that "composite".
The signal can even be improved on capturing with a good IO card (Resampling + using the "Pro Amp).
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Clint Wardlow
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 26, 2011 at 3:39:03 pm

[Rafael Amador] "VHS is already a mistreated signal; Low horizontal resolution, Reduced Luma, "Color Under" and all that "composite".
The signal can even be improved on capturing with a good IO card (Resampling + using the "Pro Amp).
rafael"


For my purposes DV works fine for right now. I'm am not really looking for clean video, but for that smeary tape feel. However, I think a good IO card is in my future, just as it increases my options.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 26, 2011 at 3:40:28 pm

[Clint Wardlow] "I think a good IO card is in my future, just as it increases my options."

And will also allow you to build a digital archive of all the legacy footage.


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Kevin Patrick
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 26, 2011 at 10:28:51 pm

[Rafael Amador] "The signal can even be improved"

Really? How can you improve on a VHS format? I was always under the impression that you can't get more than what's there.

I can understand how a compression algorithm can affect something that was never compressed. As with capturing via DV.

But are you saying you can get improvement? Or are you saying using a capture device (for uncompressed analog) will be better than the DV capture approach?


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James Culbertson
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 26, 2011 at 10:50:30 pm

[Kevin Patrick] "Really? How can you improve on a VHS format? I was always under the impression that you can't get more than what's there."

You can't improve VHS quality (except perhaps via a bit of color corrections once it is digital). But you can avoid adding insult to injury when you capture (any analog format) to ProRes or equivalent rather than firewire/DV-codec.


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Bill Davis
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 27, 2011 at 6:11:04 am

While you can't correct "resolution" other than by line doubling etc, you can correct time base errors.

Good analog decks should have a built in TBC, that will strip and re-lay sync. So if you're dealing with chroma smear - that process will actually improve the quality of the playback of an old tape.

FWIW.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Clint Wardlow
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 26, 2011 at 4:53:24 pm

[Rafael Amador] "Time to start to put things in HDs. I've already started with my more than 200 MiniDV tapes."

The problem I have with relying solely on hard drives is, that with the amount of data that they store, a hard drive crash could be a total disaster. With tape, it really sucks when one goes bad, but it is only an hour of footage.

As it stands now I try to keep my my files on at least two hard drives. A 1TB hard drive failure could eliminate hours of footage.


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Rafael Amador
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 27, 2011 at 4:39:35 am

[Kevin Patrick] "Really? How can you improve on a VHS format? I was always under the impression that you can't get more than what's there. "

same that you can improve DV stuff (420/411) going to 422 or even 444: Using an intelligent algorithm to refill the lost color samples.
You get that when you capture DV stuff with a good IO card and using a 422 codec (8b Unc would be perfect), or in any application able to apply some chroma filtering.
I do it in FC with the Nattress "ChromaSmooth/Sharpen" . Just to start, all the blockiness disappear, and all those saturated reds that expands out of whatever red object, goes back where they should be.

[Kevin Patrick] "I can understand how a compression algorithm can affect something that was never compressed. As with capturing via DV. ?"
What means not compressed?
A DV camera Video Out gives you a full broadcast signal that could be captured even at 10b/444.
What you get in tape is a 8b YUV downsampled (411/420) AND with a hard DTC compression added.

So in both cases from the Video Out (Composite or even better S-Video) or from tape, the picture can be improved.
Same for VHS, same for Betacam.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about being able to make a Chroma-Key from a VHS tape.
Is about cosmetic, make-up.
Is like a beauty parlor. We make grandma look better; we don't try her to run the marathon.

[James Culbertson] "You can't improve VHS quality (except perhaps via a bit of color corrections once it is digital). But you can avoid adding insult to injury when you capture (any analog format) to ProRes or equivalent rather than firewire/DV-codec."
The AJAS applying chroma Smoothing on capture.
Any 420/411 would be improved when capturing to 8/10b Unc or Prores.
NLEs render 444 so any 411/420 (DV, AVCHD, XDCAM-420) stuff can be "improved".

About VHS (Wikipedia: VHS is roughly equivalent to 333x480 pixels luma and 40x480 chroma resolutions), when you map that to 720x480 (720x576 in PAL) can be a huge difference on how you re-fill those holes. of course you can get a VHS to show 250 vertical lines, but you can make to look sharper the 180 or so that can hold.
You don't need to digital to get that, the very analog signal can be strengthen through a proc-amp.
VHS desk don't have it; Betacam players does.
when you work with Betacam you always touch those knobs (adjust with proper Color Bars and a the Oscilloscope).
The desk you use is very important too (adjustable RF).

[Clint Wardlow] "The problem I have with relying solely on hard drives is, that with the amount of data that they store, a hard drive crash could be a total disaster"
Clint, always two HDs, or as I'm doing, on one HD and in Data Blu-ray disks.
SONY XDCAM disks are supposed to have a 50 years warranty.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Kevin Patrick
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 27, 2011 at 12:16:27 pm

[Rafael Amador] "you can improve DV stuff (420/411) going to 422"

I had this discussion several years ago, different forum, with someone who I felt understood this more than I did. It was in that discussion that I came (or was brought) to the conclusion that you can't get something from material when it's not there. (or something like that)

If it was sampled at 4:1:1, you're not going to benefit from capturing it at 4:2:2. The detail simply isn't there.

Interesting.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 27, 2011 at 1:48:16 pm

The Mythbusters have proven that you can get a shine when polishing poop:

http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/mythbusters-polishing-a-turd.html

The process Rafa is talking about makes a very subtle difference in normal video. It will help you out in areas like keying, chroma key or lums key for cc, as it can bring back a bit of the edges.

You can put a shine it, but it's still poop.


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Rafael Amador
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 27, 2011 at 4:02:29 pm

[Kevin Patrick] "I had this discussion several years ago, different forum, with someone who I felt understood this more than I did. It was in that discussion that I came (or was brought) to the conclusion that you can't get something from material when it's not there. (or something like that)

If it was sampled at 4:1:1, you're not going to benefit from capturing it at 4:2:2. The detail simply isn't there.

Interesting."


This is the plain DV picture:



This one with the filter and rendered in 10b:



Enlarge the picture a little and look at the silhouettes.
There is difference at first sight, and will be shows up even more when you have to apply more filters, make a Secondary CC and of course when you have to re-compress that again to MPEG-2 or the web.
You can do that look better tweaking the filter (I've applied the default) and with a good de-interlacer.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Clint Wardlow
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 27, 2011 at 2:09:42 pm

[Rafael Amador] "SONY XDCAM disks are supposed to have a 50 years warranty."

Provided in 50 years any software to open one still exists.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 27, 2011 at 2:25:24 pm

[Clint Wardlow] "[Rafael Amador] "SONY XDCAM disks are supposed to have a 50 years warranty."

Provided in 50 years any software to open one still exists."


Now you're getting it. Or hardware for that matter.

LTO isn't perfect, it's a relatively temporary solution when talking about preserving history.

The nice thing about it is that it's relatively ubiquitous.

Financial and data centers have been relying on LTO much longer than the video industry.

And as I mentioned, backwards compatibility is built in. Smart!


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Rafael Amador
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 27, 2011 at 4:56:31 pm

[Clint Wardlow] "Provided in 50 years any software to open one still exists."
Provided in 50 years you will still be here to open it.
Do you expect to find an archiving format forever and ever?

[Jeremy Garchow] "The Mythbusters have proven that you can get a shine when polishing poop:

http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/mythbusters-polishing-a-turd.html

You can put a shine it, but it's still poop."

You can sell shit better with a shine.
But to get that done you have to know how to do it.
To correct downsampling, you have to know first what is downsampling Jeremy.
I'm sure that you never have tried that (in 5 years I don't remember you saying you were working in DV).

Anyway, if I would have a boss who buys me every toy I fancy (10b cameras, Konas3s and 10b monitoring), I wouldn't bother in trying to make to shine a shit.
Unfortunately I have to pay all my gear by my self and believe it or not, polishings poops I've been able to fraise a family (tree dogs included).
About the Discovery program, I will ask my five year daughter if she saw it.
Normally I have no time to watch things for kids :-)
rafa

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 27, 2011 at 5:08:10 pm

[Rafael Amador] "You can sell shit better with a shine."

Exactly my point.

[Rafael Amador] "I'm sure that you never have tried that (in 5 years I don't remember you saying you were working in DV)."

It's been a long while, you are right. I still have to polish shit, it's still shit. I capture dv to 8bit (or 10 depending on the program) via hardware. I never work in a dv timeline even if it's a dv program.

It's DV no matter how you slice it. Sorry. Yes you can massage it and spruce it up, but it's still dv.

I wouldn't call Mythbusters a kid's show, but hey, if you're daughter and I like the same show, I'm cool with that. Great minds think alike.

Relax, Rafa, I wasn't talking about your or your skills. Sheesh.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 27, 2011 at 5:17:21 pm

[Rafael Amador] "Anyway, if I would have a boss who buys me every toy I fancy (10b cameras, Konas3s and 10b monitoring), I wouldn't bother in trying to make to shine a shit. "

By the way, I don't know what you're trying to say here. Did you mean something by this?

How do you know who buys what where I work? Do you really want to talk about my employment arrangement? Seriously dude. Lay off on that shit. You have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to this.

Sorry everyone.


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Rafael Amador
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 27, 2011 at 6:33:22 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "By the way, I don't know what you're trying to say here. Did you mean something by this?

How do you know who buys what where I work? Do you really want to talk about my employment arrangement? Seriously dude. Lay off on that shit. You have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to this.

Sorry everyone."

No Jeremy, nothing related with you or your company. Don't take me wrong.
Is about you taking the piss of a format and a workflow that you recognize you know very little.

If you would have been forced to work -long time- with plain DV capturing through FW and monitoring in a TV, probably you would have learn how polish that crap in in a FC time line and you wouldn't be saying with that superiority "DV is DV".

In this thread i've just tried to help somebody else with something that has helped me.
10 years ago I have, as you have now, the best gear at my disposition.
When I had to start by my self in this country the only way was to go DV.
Believe it or not I had to squeeze my brain and I've learned more going down in resources and technology than if I would have kept going up.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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James Culbertson
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 27, 2011 at 8:02:35 pm

[Rafael Amador] "If you would have been forced to work -long time- with plain DV capturing through FW and monitoring in a TV, probably you would have learn how polish that crap in in a FC time line and you wouldn't be saying with that superiority "DV is DV"."

DV isn't "poop," but DV is still DV, and not Digibeta, much less HD. I worked with it extensively in the past. And yes you can improve it very slightly in post (or if your I/O box has the same kinds of chroma filtering and line interpolation, etc.). But as I found out repeatedly, most consumers don't notice the difference that a post-professional can. So, it may not be polishing a turd, but it is pretty irrelevant in the real world of actual viewer perception.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 27, 2011 at 8:25:46 pm

[James Culbertson] "DV isn't "poop,""

Challenge!


I'm kidding. Seriously, I'm kidding.


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Rafael Amador
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 28, 2011 at 12:04:36 pm

[James Culbertson] "DV isn't "poop," but DV is still DV, and not Digibeta, much less HD"
If we were working in DigiBeta we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[James Culbertson] "And yes you can improve it very slightly in post (or if your I/O box has the same kinds of chroma filtering and line interpolation, etc.). But as I found out repeatedly, most consumers don't notice the difference that a post-professional can. "
That's what makes the difference between a professional and a consumer or an amateur.
But it's happens that I'm a professional and I can see the difference and I know that will helps me to get a better product.
Little things that end up making a difference like the avoiding further re-compression, de-noising, using something better than Compressor to make an MPEG-2, etc.
Consumers would see the that too if you put the two images side by side.

If you are working for some body else and the "good enough" is the way to go, all that is a waist of time.
If you are making your own product and you try to get the best from your means and skills, this may be a path to explore.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Clint Wardlow
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 27, 2011 at 6:31:47 pm

[Rafael Amador] "[Clint Wardlow] "Provided in 50 years any software to open one still exists."
Provided in 50 years you will still be here to open it.
Do you expect to find an archiving format forever and ever?"


The point I am making is that archiving for future generations may disappear. Do you want everything you have ever worked on to simply vanish? Is all your hard work that disposable?

Like I pointed out earlier, if you find a box of 50-year-old negatives and 8mm films in a drawer, you can still use them to make prints or show the movies.

In fifty years if someone finds your disc are they going to be able to do anything with it?

Yes, I would like an archiving format that lasts past the current generation. I mean we can still look at a 1,000-year-old painting or read a book that was printed 500 years ago.

With all of our technology, have we become the disposable generation? Is everything we create just going to vanish once technology passes us by?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 27, 2011 at 6:54:20 pm

[Clint Wardlow] "The point I am making is that archiving for future generations may disappear. Do you want everything you have ever worked on to simply vanish? Is all your hard work that disposable?

Like I pointed out earlier, if you find a box of 50-year-old negatives and 8mm films in a drawer, you can still use them to make prints or show the movies.

In fifty years if someone finds your disc are they going to be able to do anything with it?

Yes, I would like an archiving format that lasts past the current generation. I mean we can still look at a 1,000-year-old painting or read a book that was printed 500 years ago.

With all of our technology, have we become the disposable generation? Is everything we create just going to vanish once technology passes us by?"


Clint. I appreciate your long term thinking. Rest assured, there's someone out there who wishes they had the technology to last 1,000 years. I know I wish I did.

I don't think that this is a new problem.

The art that has survived has been lovingly cared for and stored, and perhaps a bit of luck. Think of all the art that didn't make it. It was unlucky, or put in a place that wasn't conducive to long term storage. A lot of great art pieces have been professionally restored as well.

For now, you have to pick a medium, know it's limitations and take care of it. It is part of maintaining an archive. You also have to update it. Film is still around, but it won't be forever.

And frankly, yes, most of the work I do is seen for a limited time and disappears. It is not deserving of lasting 1,000 years.

Jeremy


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Clint Wardlow
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 27, 2011 at 7:45:03 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "The art that has survived has been lovingly cared for and stored, and perhaps a bit of luck. Think of all the art that didn't make it. It was unlucky, or put in a place that wasn't conducive to long term storage. A lot of great art pieces have been professionally restored as well."

Actually this is only true to a certain extent. Read about Vivian Maier, an "amateur" photographer whose negatives were discovered after her death.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivian_Maier

If she were a photographer living today, using digital technology, would someone in the future be able to publish and appraise her work if they came upon it stored on a thumb drive.

Historians are always searching for artifacts to dig up, art, or bits of manuscripts, broken pottery, clay tablets and such like. Maybe it is just the historian in me (I was a history minor in college), but it seems we may be the first generation that makes such things inaccessible for future people. That the culture of our time may be wrapped up so tightly in a case of technology that it will be uncrackable for future generations. I hope not.

[Jeremy Garchow] "And frankly, yes, most of the work I do is seen for a limited time and disappears. It is not deserving of lasting 1,000 years."

I'm not so sure that is true. Even the most banal corporate video (not to say you make banal corporate videos) could provide future historians with valuable information about the way we lived.

But as I said before, I am just waxing philosophical. Maybe the FCPX board is not the place for it.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 27, 2011 at 8:20:45 pm

[Clint Wardlow] "Actually this is only true to a certain extent. Read about Vivian Maier, an "amateur" photographer whose negatives were discovered after her death.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivian_Maier"


Yeah, but her work is "only" 60 years old at the most. I thought we are talking 1,000 years.

While a lot has changed in 60 years, you can still buy film developing tools. How long will that last? Not too much longer in the grand scheme of history. I believe we are standing in the middle of great change. History will look back on this time as they did the Industrial Revolution, and as they would when man discovered fire if recorded history went back that far. The world is changing every single day because of technology, same as it always has.

[Clint Wardlow] "If she were a photographer living today, using digital technology, would someone in the future be able to publish and appraise her work if they came upon it stored on a thumb drive."

Maybe, maybe not. History will tell us. If the data is there (in "analog" terms, if the negs are still good) it might be able to be extracted. Who knows. We'll be dead.

[Clint Wardlow] "e it is just the historian in me (I was a history minor in college), but it seems we may be the first generation that makes such things inaccessible for future people."

I think we should put this in context a bit. When Vivian Maier took pictures, was she thinking "I am using this because film will be around for at least 200 more years!" or do you think she was simply using the technology of her time? What were her options? Did she have other recording options?

If you want something to last, you have to make it last. That means taking care of it, and passing it down to someone who will take care of it, including repair it if need be. It's the same with digital technology today.

JPEGs have been around since 1990ish, making them 20ish years old. Do you think that are going to go anywhere soon?

As far as Vivian Maeir's work being found, this is what I was referring to about a bit of luck. Check it out: "Maloof bought 30,000 prints and negatives from an auction house that had acquired the photographs from a storage locker that had been sold off when Maier was no longer able to pay her fees. After purchasing the first collection of Maier photographs in 2007, Maloof acquired more from another buyer at the same auction."

So her material was fortunately stored in a dark, relatively climate friendly location. Think if those prints would have been out in the sun, or got water on them, or buried in someone's backyard. Because they weren't exposed to any elements except time and perhaps air, they survived.

Technology will have the chance to survive if kept in such conditions. the more ubiquitous, probably the better chance of survival. Specialization will probably have less chance of survival.

[Clint Wardlow] "I'm not so sure that is true. Even the most banal corporate video (not to say you make banal corporate videos) could provide future historians with valuable information about the way we lived."

I hear you, and yes, I will be the first to tell you that I do make some banal corporate videos, among other things. I agree with you that anything, given the distance of history, will provide information. There is no way to currently historically value anything that I do. Earlier this year, we shot some footage for a local sports team that had to do with driving around the city and shooting. In 100 years from now, even 50 years from now, think of the information one might be able to get from that. I am sure during the Renaissance, there were many artists, we only know about a select "few". I am sure there was work that simply did not survive, or was very rare, or no one card about it at the time. The stuff that survived was because someone cared for it, and a bit of luck.

[Clint Wardlow] "But as I said before, I am just waxing philosophical. Maybe the FCPX board is not the place for it."

It's nice to change up the pace instead of talking about "I hate tracklessness and magnets!". I also think it's very relevant, so good on ya.


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Clint Wardlow
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 27, 2011 at 9:24:06 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "While a lot has changed in 60 years, you can still buy film developing tools. How long will that last? Not too much longer in the grand scheme of history. I believe we are standing in the middle of great change."

Actually creating your own photo chemicals or light sensitive paper is very doable (I have a friend who creates his own emulsion for printing from plates he shoots with his Graflex). Using the negative itself is pretty much a very basic process. All you really need is a dark room, something to shine light through the negative and onto coated paper, and the chemicals to process it. I'm sure an enterprising type could probably construct a rudimentary enlarger (although with really large format negatives all you need is something to press the negative between the paper and light source.

Film is a little more problematic. Years ago I purchased a bunch of 16mm projectors and films from my local high school which was switching to video for very little cash (the films were a goldmine...including an anti-drug movie starring Sonny Bono!) I currently use most of the projectors as parts to keep two of the projectors in running condition. However, I think it would be nigh unto impossible for almost anyone but the most skilled shade-tree engineer to construct a working film projector.

Still, someone with a very rudimentary skill set in mechanics can keep such things up and running if they can get their hands on the parts (at least for now).

With digital media, no mater your skill set, creating the media and hardware you need to run such media is almost an impossibility without lots of support. Of course this could change. Maybe some future artists will specialize in building the hardware and working in outdated digital media just the same way modern artists work with large plate cameras and wet collodian film processing.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 27, 2011 at 9:35:23 pm

[Clint Wardlow] "With digital media, no mater your skill set, creating the media and hardware you need to run such media is almost an impossibility without lots of support. Of course this could change. Maybe some future artists will specialize in building the hardware and working in outdated digital media just the same way modern artists work with large plate cameras and wet collodian film processing."

I whole heartedly agree. The talent will shift from a more mechanical working background to digital mechanics. You will need someone to reverse engineer the encode/decode, or perhaps software will be smart enough to do it for us. With hardware, it will be a different story, but who knows, maybe in the future making your own computer boards/transistors will be easier than today wile scrounging up spare parts from the graveyard.


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Rafael Amador
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 27, 2011 at 6:55:05 pm

[Clint Wardlow] "The point I am making is that archiving for future generations may disappear. Do you want everything you have ever worked on to simply vanish? Is all your hard work that disposable?

Like I pointed out earlier, if you find a box of 50-year-old negatives and 8mm films in a drawer, you can still use them to make prints or show the movies.

In fifty years if someone finds your disc are they going to be able to do anything with it?

Yes, I would like an archiving format that lasts past the current generation. I mean we can still look at a 1,000-year-old painting or read a book that was printed 500 years ago."


Sure not, but archiving is not about putting something some where and forget it till somebody will discover it.
Archiving need is people to take care.
if all these books, movies or painting has survived, is because there are been always people paying attention.
Archiving doesn't just cost money and means, but time and dedication.
I archive in HDs and BR disks (no the SONY disks that needs expensive hardware) till I find something better and affordable.
I know that if I wan't that my little archive survive, is not just about to finding the best format or media, but finding somebody interested in keeping it.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Clint Wardlow
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 27, 2011 at 7:59:28 pm

[Rafael Amador] "Sure not, but archiving is not about putting something some where and forget it till somebody will discover it.
Archiving need is people to take care.
if all these books, movies or painting has survived, is because there are been always people paying attention.
Archiving doesn't just cost money and means, but time and dedication.
I archive in HDs and BR disks (no the SONY disks that needs expensive hardware) till I find something better and affordable.
I know that if I wan't that my little archive survive, is not just about to finding the best format or media, but finding somebody interested in keeping it.
rafael"


Things aren't always preserved because they are meticulously cared for. They are discovered centuries after they were written. Read about the Nag Hammadi Library.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nag_Hammadi

If they had been written today, outlawed and stored on a thumb drive, would someone digging them up 1,500 years from now be able to do a thing with them? (To be honest, even if they were written on today's acid-based papers the probably still would,'t survive the centuries.)

But once again this is just me being philosophical and really has little to do with FCPX


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Bill Davis
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 27, 2011 at 10:49:41 pm

Nah, this thread is t'totally practical.

And for anyone interested in archiving their work in a near permanent state, I have a perfectly functioning WIRE RECORDER on my shelf that plays back the audio spools recorded 30 years before I was born.

(just don't come over with a pocket full of magnets, OK?)

I bet the shelf life of DVDs is going to be at least that good.

Physical tape based stuff, even digital data tapes - I'm not so sure of.

I had a fling with DC-2000 cart storage in the 1990s that left a REALLY bad taste in my mouth.

FWIW

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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James Culbertson
Re: Will old formats Apple in the future?
on Oct 27, 2011 at 11:56:24 pm

[Bill Davis] "
I bet the shelf life of DVDs is going to be at least that good."


Except a small percentage of my DVD-R archive is beginning to fail after less than 10 years. So, while some DVDs may last that long if you are lucky, I would definitely recommend redundancy, and even then assume you will lose a certain random percentage of your content.

Fortunately, I have most of this content on HD's which I redundantly back up to other HDs.


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