FORUMS: list search recent posts

A few clues

COW Forums : Apple Final Cut Pro X Debates

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
tony west
A few clues
on Oct 25, 2011 at 6:50:14 am

Much of the debate here has been on rather or not apple with X has given up on the pro market.

A few clues lead me to believe they haven't.

1. This thing defaults to surround sound. If you want to edit in just stereo you have to go in there and change it.

Now think about this for a minute, in order to keyframe and mix surround sound you have to HEAR the mix.
That would mean that you have to have a surround sound system hooked up to your computer or suite you are working in. (like big time sound editors have?)

Let's keep it real fellas, amateurs don't have that kind of hook up. Heck, I would venture to say most high end editors still have just stereo in their ears.

2. The new roles feature. That makes it easy for you to send out different languages.
Why would you do that? Foreign distribution maybe? So what, somebody is thinking they need to get oversees with their kid's 4th grade soccer game? Nope.

3. Motion. Why add it? It just intimidates newbees.

4. Some of the Audio tools. So, somebody is going to breakout the ringshifter in their wedding video?
It doesn't seem like it would fit, and if it did they wouldn't know what that was or how to use it.
The ringshifter was big in film in the 70's (these youtube teeny bobbers are up on that right?) Uh Uh

5. Steve Jobs' ego. I never met the man, but everything about the guy said "cocky" to me. No hate there, Ali was cocky, that's how you get great sometimes. I think he got a big kick out of Oscar award wining film makers talking up his products.

6. Imovie. They already got one, no need to make two : )


Tony West


Return to posts index

Shane Ross
Re: A few clues
on Oct 25, 2011 at 2:18:23 pm

[tony west] "1. This thing defaults to surround sound. If you want to edit in just stereo you have to go in there and change it."

I don't edit in surround...I edit in stereo. Professional VIDEO editors do not edit surround. Surround is left to the audio professionals who can ACTUALLY do a proper surround mix, not some fake surround that consumer apps claim to do. I mean, there are consumer video cameras that say they shoot in surround...and all they have is that one little microphone on the top.

Show of hands...how many people here actually know how to do a proper surround mix? I sure don't.

[tony west] "That would mean that you have to have a surround sound system hooked up to your computer or suite you are working in. (like big time sound editors have?)
"


Sorry, we don't have surround sound systems in our edit bays. We have a mixer and two speakers. Some might have surround sound setups, but those are rare. Feature film editors, network TV editors...mixer and two speakers.

[tony west] "Heck, I would venture to say most high end editors still have just stereo in their ears."

That's right...we do. Surround mixing is the realm of audio mixers, or the occasional video professional who understands how. Most professional bays have stereo outputs.

[tony west] "2. The new roles feature. "

It's a step, but not exactly what we need. Maybe for the semi-pro, but pros need audio tracks. ASSIGNABLE audio tracks.

[tony west] "3. Motion. Why add it? It just intimidates newbees."

They didn't add it. It is a separate app. OH, and talk about intimidating the newbies...they killed COLOR. THAT app intimidated many many newbies. And is primarily used by professionals. OH, but not anymore, it was killed. SHAKE, also a high end app...compositing app used in features! Bought, and killed, by Apple. DVD Studio Pro...PRO DVD authoring app...killed.

[tony west] "6. Imovie. They already got one, no need to make two : )"

The iMovie people always wanted more. They always go, "I've done work in iMovie, but now I feel like I need more! So I moved to FCP, and now I'm confused!!" So Apple made an app that was more than iMovie, yet not confusing for them when they move up.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


Return to posts index

Kevin Patrick
Re: A few clues
on Oct 25, 2011 at 3:02:28 pm

[Shane Ross] " DVD Studio Pro...PRO DVD authoring app...killed."

Wasn't that another Apple acquisition? I think the name of the company was Spruce. As I recall, it was one of the better authoring packages out there at that time. PC users lost out on that one.

It's one thing to back out of a market segment. It's another to buy up companies and kill their products too. Not only am I taking my toys and going home, but I'm taking other kids toys with me too.


Return to posts index


Shawn Miller
Re: A few clues
on Oct 25, 2011 at 6:43:44 pm

"PC users lost out on that one."

Yup, along with Shake and Logic. I almost bought the former six months before the aqusition.
It was interesting to watch the recations... for the most part, Mac users loved it and thought it was a great opportunity for Wndows users to "switch". I think most PC users switched to Sonar or Cubase out of protest.

Shawn



Return to posts index

Bill Davis
Re: A few clues
on Oct 25, 2011 at 6:32:19 pm

[Shane Ross] "Most professional bays have stereo outputs.
"


Uh, for broadcast yes. But Stereo is actually a really POOR choice in most other work.

I haven't delivered anything but MONO mixes for the past 20 years for professional use.

You learn that the first time somebody screws up and sums your soundtrack and you get snapped by nasty phase problems.

Dual mono rules.

FWIW.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


Return to posts index

Shane Ross
Re: A few clues
on Oct 25, 2011 at 7:11:04 pm

[Bill Davis] "Dual mono rules."

For EDITING...yes. I use Mono tracks for most everything, except Music and sound effects. But everything else is mono.

But I deliver STEREO...and sometimes a 5.1 mix (when done by a pro mixer). When I mix on my own, which is happening more and more lately, I deliver a stereo mix. Broadcast, and non-broadcast.

Whatever. Delivering dual mono just shows what level of productions you are working on. Ones that give little notice to production value, especially audio. Which is more important than picture, BTW.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


Return to posts index


Jeremy Garchow
Re: A few clues
on Oct 25, 2011 at 7:23:10 pm

[Shane Ross] "Whatever. Delivering dual mono just shows what level of productions you are working on. Ones that give little notice to production value, especially audio"

Err, last I checked, some MXF deliverables are mono as that's how the files work, your stereo HAS to go dual mono, otherwise you can't make the file.


Return to posts index

Shane Ross
Re: A few clues
on Oct 25, 2011 at 7:32:55 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Err, last I checked, some MXF deliverables are mono as that's how the files work, your stereo HAS to go dual mono, otherwise you can't make the file."

Ah...different deliverable than I do. OK then...different deliverables have different requirements.

But yeah, I send out a STEREO LEFT and STEREO RIGHT as Dual Mono...but it is a stereo mix. Discreet audio channels...but a stereo mix.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


Return to posts index

tony west
Re: A few clues
on Oct 25, 2011 at 7:11:04 pm

" Surround is left to the audio professionals who can ACTUALLY do a proper surround mix"

That assumes everybody has the money to take it to them and pay for that.

I think that independent film makers on a small budget will use this if they can't get the cash.
That's an opinion, we will see if I'm right.

""3. Motion. Why add it? It just intimidates newbees."

"They didn't add it. It is a separate app"

I guess I didn't spell this out.

Add it......in the sense of the the drawing board.
Like.......don't make it...........like.......don't offer it....at all. This new version of Motion.....don't bother to MAKE it. Get me?

If you are marketing to skateboarders they won't use it anyway right?

"So Apple made an app that was more than iMovie, yet not confusing for them when they move up."

Move up to what?

To the "pro" level?

I'm just looking at it from what I have seen in the business world in the past.
When companies want to get out of something they get out.

I'm from St. Louis, and when AB got taken over the new folk said they were OUT of the theme park
biz.
And they sold all that stuff off.

They didn't keep a few animals or parks.

OUT. PERIOD.

I agree that they want people to move up.

What we are debating is, to what end?

Tony West


Return to posts index


Shane Ross
Re: A few clues
on Oct 25, 2011 at 7:28:24 pm

[tony west] "If you are marketing to skateboarders they won't use it anyway right?"

Wrong. They will. Or they use After Effects. Have you SEEN a skateboarding video recently? They are FULL of effects and things done in Motion or After Effects.

I know a lot of skateboarders.

[tony west] "Move up to what?

To the "pro" level?"


YUP! Almost daily I'd see some post on some forum from some person who says that they have used iMovie before, but want to step up to a more "pro" app...they want to have more tools than iMovie provides. And then they get to FCP and EVERYTHING is different to what they used before. And they are lost. THIS is who Apple is listening to, and catering to now. Which is why FCX is iMovie Pro.

[tony west] "What we are debating is, to what end?"

You said that you see proof that Apple is making a Pro app...and presenting your proof. I can present a bunch of counter points if you like, but those points only serve my Professional market...broadcast TV...and feature film. For those markets, Apple stopped providing a lot of tools we use, saying "those are old and outdated...no one uses them." when, in fact, we are using them daily. They just aren't looking at us anymore, they are looking at a lower end market.

Which is fine. I've moved on to apps that work for me. Just don't try to say that they are making a product that will suit my needs. Well, I guess you aren't. You are saying how it fits YOUR needs. And your pro market is perfectly valid. Apple is going for a pro market, just not the same one it aimed at for many many years.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


Return to posts index

tony west
Re: A few clues
on Oct 26, 2011 at 11:29:40 am

Shane, I hear what you are saying about what you need and I think you hear what I need in Sports/News.

As a person who works on some of the most watched events on Television I know what I need also.

You point out that many people still use tape. I know that, because ESPN and FOX that are MY clients are in that mode to.

The difference seems to be that I'm in their face telling them to move away from tape everyday.

As a shooter I HATE tape. As an Editor I HATE tape. I don't want to work with it anymore.

I work on many sports round table shows as a shooter and our AVID editor always says "make sure you jam timecode on those cameras" (we may have five on a small show)

With X you don't have to worry about that because it syncs with sound.

As a PRO shooter I would rather not worry about jamming TC. It just slows me down in the field.

When News is breaking and there is a press conference I don't WANT to worry about TC.

I don't want to go through tape libraries looking for shots of Stan the Man.

Get what I am saying? I don't WANT to work like that anymore. It's old.

I have worked on the biggest stages in the world, and I don't care about labels.

I care about doing good work and getting paid.

The faster I can move your stuff out the door the more stuff I can work on and get paid more.

We just need different things.

I don't know about other people on here, but in the world I work in it's all about them looking at their watches thinking "I hope I don't have to pay you overtime."

We both get paid and work on big shows. We are just focused on different things.

Doesn't make either of us bad or good. Just different.


Tony West


Return to posts index

Shane Ross
Re: A few clues
on Oct 27, 2011 at 12:35:16 am

[tony west] "As a PRO shooter I would rather not worry about jamming TC. It just slows me down in the field."

Well, as an editor, without jamming TC, a lot of time is used dealing with this issue. A lot. What takes you a few minutes to do, saves hours, if not a day, in post.

ALL ROADS LEAD TO POST. Gotta remember that. Everything you shoot, all the audio that is recorded...all winds up in one place...post production. That is where things are assembled. Don't take a few minutes to do things right in the field, and we are then slowed down by having to fix it in post. Fixing it in post, a lot of times, is more expensive than fixing it in the field. People don't realize that.

[tony west] "When News is breaking and there is a press conference I don't WANT to worry about TC."

Well, you shouldn't. That's a single camera thing...that's NEWS. That's different. Jam synching timecode doesn't happen with ON THE SCENE news does it? Dunno, not my area.

[tony west] "I care about doing good work and getting paid."

Then please take care to give post everything we need. Make things smoother for post, and producers remember you...want to use you again. Cause problems for post, you won't get hired again.

[tony west] "The faster I can move your stuff out the door the more stuff I can work on and get paid more."

The BETTER stuff is prepared and given to us, the more money you save the production.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


Return to posts index


tony west
Re: A few clues
on Oct 27, 2011 at 9:19:13 am

"Well, as an editor, without jamming TC, a lot of time is used dealing with this issue"

That's my point, (I edit also) with X you can sync WITHOUT TC. You highlight both clips and the hit sync and done. That's how I would rather do it.


"Well, you shouldn't. That's a single camera thing...that's NEWS. That's different. Jam synching timecode doesn't happen with ON THE SCENE news does it? Dunno, not my area."

But it is my area and I can explain how it works.
FSN and Fox 2 news are both FOX. One is sports, and the other is news but we share footage because we are the same company. We could both have shooters there. Happens all the time.

Also we have more than one shooter at FSN. Depending on what is happening we could have many shooters.

Shane, our team is in the World Series tonight. How many people do you think we will have down there?
I can tell you it's not going to be ONE. It's the World Series.

"Then please take care to give post everything we need."

But I'm post also Shane, I'm a shooter AND an editor and finding shots by name with X is what I need.
It's just not what you need.

We do different stuff man.

Remember I'm not telling YOU to use this app, I'm telling others how I use it or could use it in the future.

"The BETTER stuff is prepared and given to us, the more money you save the production."

CORRECT they are wasting money by looking for shots the "old" way.
The "BETTER stuff" for me is stuff that is ORGANIZED the way I want to use it.

Tony West


Return to posts index

Daniel Frome
Re: A few clues
on Oct 25, 2011 at 7:52:39 pm

+1


Return to posts index

Christian Schumacher
Re: A few clues
on Oct 25, 2011 at 5:41:26 pm

I believe they kept some features and Apps due to the transition.

By doing so, they can keep some of their users base as well
They are still selling Mac Pros, iMacs and Minis for that matter.

But once the transition to iOS and iPad is complete, they will drop them.
Or more likely, adapt some of them for that upcoming scenario.

Apple taking a lead onto this emerging computer market is what Jobs wanted.
He had a prototype of the tablet/iOS more than ten years ago.

They know what they are doing.


Return to posts index


Jeremy Garchow
Re: A few clues
on Oct 25, 2011 at 6:17:00 pm

[Christian Schumacher] "They know what they are doing."

Huh. Interesting comment. They might just know what they are doing.

And do you think that PC makers are going to make PCs forever?

If a quad core MacBookPro (or perhaps a mac mini whenever they go quad core) and a Thunderbolt port can get you really close to what you need, why wouldn't people use it? If you can get a breakout box that has PCIe and connects to your computer with Thunderbolt (say you want to stick two graphics cards in it to run Resolve) why wouldn't people use it? MacBook Pros are cheaper than MacPros. They are quiet, efficient, portable, powerful and expandable.

Look here: http://barefeats.com/fcpx01.html

here:
http://www.macrumors.com/2011/09/07/magma-introduces-thunderbolt-pcie-expan...
http://www.sonnettech.com/product/thunderbolt/ (CLICK ON "EXPANSION" TAB)

3G-SDI, 444, capture available (soon) here:
http://www.aja.com/products/io/io-xt.php

I think you are writing things off a bit too soon. Traditional computers aren'y going anywhere, they are just getting smaller and more powerful. You seem to paint this picture in a very bad light. I think it's pretty awesome.


Return to posts index

Mark Dobson
Re: A few clues
on Oct 25, 2011 at 6:47:01 pm

There is a detailed breakdown of all the FCPX audio effects in theApple Help Library.

http://help.apple.com/finalcutpro-logiceffects/mac/4.0/en/finalcutprox/logi...

Mark Dobson
Producer and Director
Alembic TV
http://www.alembic.tv


Return to posts index

Christian Schumacher
Re: A few clues
on Oct 25, 2011 at 6:47:35 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] " You seem to paint this picture in a very bad light."

I think that 'cos Apple is gonna prioritize their own gear in the future.
If then your camera is shooting some kind of MOV envelope it'll be fine.
If not...Better have an iThing camera instead? That can't be good.

I may be writing things off a bit too soon, and I grant you that.
But I see a pattern developing here. And it may take a lot of time, indeed.

Portability is great at Apple, hence their laptop line shining golden sparks.
In the next few years, I believe FCPX and Apple gear will do cool stuff, yes.
But how will this same portability logic hold for "pro-use" further in time?

How are we gonna use an iPad for all situations is beyond me.
(Assuming that Apple eventually drops computers and focus only on iPads.)


Return to posts index


Jeremy Garchow
Re: A few clues
on Oct 25, 2011 at 6:56:21 pm

[Christian Schumacher] "How are we gonna use an iPad for all situations is beyond me."

This is also projecting in to an unforeseen future, but theoretically, If it's expandable and fast, how wouldn't we? That's why we use MacPros now, right? Expandability and speed. If I can have that in the palm of my hand, why do I need a MacPro?

Let's not forget that thunderbolt is a DISPLAY protocol too. Of course, iPads would have to get intel processors at that point.


Return to posts index

Christian Schumacher
Re: A few clues
on Oct 25, 2011 at 7:15:18 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] " If I can have that in the palm of my hand, why do I need a MacPro?"

Great, I see where you are getting at.
If we can hook everything up to this thing, it will behave as a computer.
Fine for me.

The main problem is going to be Apple's claustrophobic inclination.
And how this will play out with its iOS+AppStore+hardware development.

That's what is actually worrying me.


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: A few clues
on Oct 25, 2011 at 7:22:47 pm

[Christian Schumacher] "The main problem is going to be Apple's claustrophobic inclination.
And how this will play out with its iOS+AppStore+hardware development.

That's what is actually worrying me."


Explain, please.


Return to posts index

Christian Schumacher
Re: A few clues
on Oct 25, 2011 at 7:35:11 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Explain, please."

Speaking of a supposed future's scenario, my hunch is

-You will only run iOS onto their machines.
-You will only buy Apps at their store.
-You will only use very, very selected gear.

It is a claustrophobic ecosystem, isn't it ?


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: A few clues
on Oct 25, 2011 at 7:47:58 pm

[Christian Schumacher] "Speaking of a supposed future's scenario, my hunch is

-You will only run iOS onto their machines.
-You will only buy Apps at their store.
-You will only use very, very selected gear.

It is a claustrophobic ecosystem, isn't it ?"


Yes. It is their system, sure, but it's not happening quite yet. As far as gear, Apple has always been selective, that is nothing new. iOS doesn't run on computers, just mobile devices.

Did you see this posted by Bill Davis the other day? It brings up a lot that you mention:

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2011/10/the-iconstitution-how-to-pr...

Jeremy


Return to posts index

Christian Schumacher
Re: A few clues
on Oct 25, 2011 at 8:10:16 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "but it's not happening quite yet."

You are talking about its current state while I am speculating on its future state.

[Jeremy Garchow]
As far as gear, Apple has always been selective, that is nothing new."


Well, things can worsen a lot if hardware and software are created to be more closed.

[Jeremy Garchow] " iOS doesn't run on computers, just mobile devices."

I know that. Again, I'm talking about their future hardware consolidation.
Which will require a solo operational system.


Return to posts index

Steve Connor
Re: A few clues
on Oct 25, 2011 at 7:23:13 pm

Next iPad rumored to have Thunderbolt, that might be the start of the change

"My Name is Steve and I'm an FCPX user"


Return to posts index

Shawn Miller
Re: A few clues
on Oct 25, 2011 at 7:05:18 pm

"And do you think that PC makers are going to make PCs forever?"

Some just might, you're talking about an industry, not a single company. Obviously, some if not most PC intergrators will continue to cater to consumers. But not all of them.

Shawn



Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: A few clues
on Oct 25, 2011 at 7:08:41 pm

[Shawn Miller] "Some just might, you're talking about an industry, not a single company."

Absolutely right. Do you see manufacturers coming out with huge new desktops? Would you say they are producing more portables, or more desktops?

As I said, it's theoretical. No one knows but it will be obvious when we get there.

[Shawn Miller] "Obviously, some if not most PC intergrators will continue to cater to consumers. But not all of them. "

Again, absolutely right. As far as I can tell, I can still buy a MacPro, can't I?


Return to posts index

Shawn Miller
Re: A few clues
on Oct 25, 2011 at 7:31:21 pm

"Do you see manufacturers coming out with huge new desktops? Would you say htey are producing more portables, or more desktops?"

AFAIK, SuperMicro and Boxx are still selling more dual processor (Xeon) workstations than smaller i7/5 desktops or laptops.. although, I understand that Boxx' new smaller renderPros are popular.

"I can still buy a MacPro, can't I?"

Sure, I didn't mean to imply otherwise. I'm just saying that there will most likely always be a market for bigger more powerful computers. It seems like a lot of folks see Apple trending toward the smaller, single CPU connected to many peripheral via Thunderbolt - and a discontinuation of the MacPro. I'm just not convinced that all PC intergrators will go in the same direction.

Shawn



Return to posts index

moody glasgow
Re: A few clues
on Oct 25, 2011 at 7:34:10 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Look here: http://barefeats.com/fcpx01.html"

Yeah, I've read that before. One thing it show is the realiance on the GPU.

3. GPU - We observed 300+MB of VRAM in use while rendering blur effects. And according to OpenGL Driver Monitor, the CPU had to constantly wait for the GPU. To better illustrate the GPU effect, we plan to render the Blur Effects using various Mac Pro GPUs like we did with our Motion 5 testing. Stay tuned for those results.

moody glasgow
smoke/flame


Return to posts index

Michael Gissing
Re: A few clues
on Oct 25, 2011 at 10:13:36 pm

My hand is up Shane. I mix for broadcast, some cinema and everything ends up on the web as well. Few editors need to monitor 5.1 and almost no edit suites I have seen have a proper 5.1 speaker setup. Both my suites have 5.1, plus stereo and mono fold downs so I can monitor all variations. Studio A is for grading, online and playout to HDCam (yes folks most broadcasters and international distributors still demand a tape out regardless of what Apple think). Studio B is the main sound post room but both have identical speakers and amps.

Minimum requirement for an editing app that is a feed in to a professional world where grading, onlining and sound post are normal requires export functionality that is slowly becoming part of FCP X. The fact that it was missing in action and is expected to be a third party developer fix says louder than anything else that FCPX was not targeting a professional broadcast or cinema market.

Trick things like 5.1 monitoring are gimmicks I expect in wannabe software and shows how little about a professional workflow that the software team behind FCPX actually have. When export in and out pipelines are working robustly and I can see an image on a professional monitor via a card like AJA, then I will tell editors that they can start to play with FCPX as a viable editor in my workflow.


Return to posts index

Bill Davis
Re: A few clues
on Oct 28, 2011 at 12:17:21 am

These threads continue to be so ODD in my opinion.

It's like we're living in CLANS here. If you're in one clan, you MUST dismiss what he other is saying. Your clan reality is the ONLY perspective your willing to shoehorn the entire discussion into. In that sense, I guess it is like the politics of this era. Defaulting to "inflexible" no matter the sense of anything outside our personal predilections.

A few brave souls on EACH side willing to listen to what the other is saying, but everybody else stuck in their world view come hell or high water.

I honestly didn't feel FCP-X was getting a particularly fair hearing at the beginning because it was so unusual, but now I'm confident that the software is finally being more accurately understood since there are now enough voices who know what it is, rather than exclusively what they originally "wished" it to be. So I'm feeling personally less defensive or antagonistic about the whole thing.

It isn't worthy of "doom and gloom" and it currently isn't perfect manna from the software gods. It's a fresh, new working tool with a tremendous amount of as yet unrealized potential - still in early development.

That's good enough for me.

Just musing of an evening.

YMM (and very likely will) V.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


Return to posts index

tony west
Re: A few clues
on Oct 28, 2011 at 3:35:46 pm

Well said, Bill



Tony West


Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2017 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]