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Is FCPX really worth it?

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David Roth Weiss
Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 19, 2011 at 6:12:45 pm

Since the April 13th "sneak," FCP users have experienced upheaval and turmoil that I liken to a "civil war," with brothers fighting brothers and editors quarreling among themselves, because lives and careers and businesses are on the line.

The "big" question I'd like to pose to all FCPX debaters at this point in time is this, is FCPX really worth all the "high drama" that Apple set in motion throughout the industry since it took over the big SuperMeet at NAB in April?

I think it's clear that almost everyone on all sides of the "debate" would agree, there are several very cool things the developers have done with FCP X. However, as time goes by and all things are considered, I would suggest that we need to question whether the "improvements" constitute such a significant "breakthrough" they can ever justify Apple's radical approach that it forced upon the industry (i.e forced on users, manufacturers, and vendors)?

Is the magnetic timeline really worth the "crisis" that Apple created? Is FCPX really important enough to justify Apple's decision to essentially throw away everything that came before it? And, will the tangible benefits of X really prove valuable enough over time to justify forcing hundreds of thousands of editors to retrain and possibly retool?

Please, before you rush to answer, think about it... Was creating this tumultuous situation really necessary?

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Neil Goodman
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 19, 2011 at 6:24:52 pm

i think not, the only innovation they made to me which is obvious is the keywording, which i think is a better way to subclip, essentially its the same thing but then they contradict themselves by not being able to save your in and outs if you go to a different window.

Everyone will say, but what about the background rendering ? well imo its lame because you still have to wait for it to finish and in fact its not doing anything in thr background at all.

A far as the magnetic timeline, i feel its counter intuitive to the whole scope of editing. Its really just a mess and i cn edit in it, i just dont want to.

It seems like every cool thing they introduced is married to some lame way of deterring you to use it. Fr example the scopes. There awesome, full color, real time, but why cant i open them in a new window, why do i have to make a choice wether to either have my record monitor so small in order to share the space that color corrections are barely visible or have the scopes so small i cant even see the fine points?

We all asked for impovements but they ignored so much and decided to do there own thing anyways, which i think is gonna continue to the future. They dont care.

Avid and Adobe are and have been listening to see what WE really want, and albeit slowly, there are responding and you cant ignore the strides these companies have made to build upon thee NLE legacy, not completely change it.

The thing that irks me the most is that everyone is making excuses, saying they had to change it to accommodate the new 64 bit architecture. Well i call bullshit. The Logic team was able to implement w/o changing a damn thing. In fact you wouldnt notice it unless you read the readme with the fix's and changes. I think they could of kept everything exactly the same and just made it 64 bit, added background (even tho its not background) etc etc wtihout doing anything to the look and feel of the program. We all know that this was possible. They chose to ignore us.


Neil Goodman: Editor of New Media Production - NBC/Universal


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Shane Ross
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 19, 2011 at 6:56:06 pm

Is the DRAMA worth it? Or the editing application? Or...is the editing application worth all the drama associated with it?

Well..not quite sure how to answer this. Apple had an editing application that reached a broad spectrum of users. From hobbyists to independent filmmakers to very high end post work for broadcast TV and feature film. It covered the gamut. But then when FCX came out, it pretty much decapitated itself...cutting itself off from the high end market that got FCP the market share it enjoys today. People bought FCP because it was used on COLD MOUNTAIN and ZODIAK. Because Bunim/Murray had 100+ seats on all the reality shows it worked on. Because it was used in Scrubs...because it was the first to really work with RED. People wanted the NLE that professionals used, on professional projects.

And, in fact, FCP was poised to DOMINATE the high end post market. Avid was struggling to stay alive, even though it had a wide user base in features and TV. It was losing ground, and shedding people, and losing money. FCP was ready to take over.

Then FCX came out and cut itself loose from that market. It was like a fantastic gift to Avid..."here, have your users back. We don't want them anymore." And it left a HUGE hole to be filled that Avid couldn't fill. A potential hole, that is. When FCP 7 stops being useful, people need a replacement...and Adobe has a toolset very similar to FCS...and will fill that remaining gap.

But the drama of the release....is it worth it? Yes. Because of this the OTHER NLE makers will work harder to please the end user. Avid working hard and listening to people's needs. Adobe also reaching out and really listening to what people want, and striving to meet their needs. We haven't seen this much "listening" in a long long time. Not since Avid first started out. Now these companies know how much they need to actually cater to our needs. That WE are in charge, because we have several NLEs to choose from. So if they want our business, they'd better give us what we need, or we will use the other guy.

It shows how much power us editors have...how much we can affect the NLE market. And that is a GOOD thing. Now it isn't limited to those of us with the bigger voices, but open to everyone.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Tom Wolsky
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 19, 2011 at 7:08:22 pm

If a market has reached or is nearing saturation, it becomes necessary to change the market. FCP probably exceeded the number of "professional" editors in the world. It was clear there was really no room for growth.

Apple is a mobile device company, laptops, tablets, phones. It's hardware and software is designed primarily for that market space. A common application base that supports media from mobile devices on tablets and laptops and on to larger hardware was needed. This is were Apple decided it had to go. If these devices or similar devices are going to be used for content creation by professionals then Apple hardware and software will support them; if not, then it won't. The market space that uses portable devices from phones on up is the market space Apple has chosen to support. Steve Jobs said it a number of years ago. This is what they are and where they're going. If you're not going down that road Apple can only offer you limited support. They are not a computer company. They stopped being a computer company years ago. Their interest in software for computers is pretty limited.

When looked at it from this point of view their decision process is pretty inevitable, however poorly the execution of that process was delivered.

All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Coming in 2011 "Complete Training for FCPX" from Class on Demand
"Final Cut Pro X for iMovie and Final Cut Express Users" from Focal Press


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Garrett Evans
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 19, 2011 at 7:51:34 pm

I agree with Tom...Apple is following the dollars.

Now, that's not to say the professional community might have been deserving of a better roll out, explaination, or just straight talk from Apple...

MacPro OSX 10.6.8 2x2.26 QCIX 10GB 1066MHz DDR3 FCP7.0.3/FCS3
FCSvr1.5 Xsan2.2 DotHill 24TB QlogicSANbox 8GB ATTO 8GB


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 19, 2011 at 8:07:24 pm

[Garrett Evans] "I agree with Tom...Apple is following the dollars."

That's a given, Apple is a business after all.

[Garrett Evans] "Now, that's not to say the professional community might have been deserving of a better roll out, explaination, or just straight talk from Apple..."

This more in line with my question, which is really asking if what FCP X offers is really in line with the drama Apple has chosen to create around it?

The world is in a tumultuous state of upheaval, and this industry was in a state of upheaval before FCPX was released; the question comes down to, does FCPX really deliver enough to justify all the drama? Would Apple have done better to choose an entirely different approach that would not have generated as much turmoil and civil unrest/dispute?

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Garrett Evans
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 19, 2011 at 8:16:01 pm

Well, if we're going back in time, to do it all over again...I (Apple) would never had thrown the kind of weight they did at NAB, hijacking a stage and holding our community hostage for a few days or weeks, only to essentially pee down our necks and tell us it's just rain.

That's a little strong I admit. But jeeze...at the time there wasn't much debate about FCP7 riding the top of the heap, so perhaps a bit of professional restraint and tact we're in order.

So, to answer in my opinion...no, the drama was definity not needed or worth it. We're pros, for crying out loud...tell us straight the way it is, thank us for our loyalty, and leave us with choices.

MacPro OSX 10.6.8 2x2.26 QCIX 10GB 1066MHz DDR3 FCP7.0.3/FCS3
FCSvr1.5 Xsan2.2 DotHill 24TB QlogicSANbox 8GB ATTO 8GB


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John Christie
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 19, 2011 at 8:20:25 pm

David

Apple could have saved themselves a lot of grief by calling the program what it really is: iMovie Pro. This would have given them the opportunity to test the waters before hand and get us all used to the ideas being presented. Instead, Apple decided to create all the drama by EOLing FCP 7 and Colour. Is the drama worth it? Well it's been great fun to watch and read about. Apple decided to choose a new path that doesn't meet my companies needs, therefore I will have to change editing applications.

Cheers

John C


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Tom Wolsky
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 19, 2011 at 8:53:37 pm

I think the disruption and unrest was/is in such a marginal community of users in relation to the whole community of Apple product users that Apple, however much they may care, simply preferred to shrug and accept the damage. The pro apps developers were clearly aware that the the reaction was going to be very negative; they perhaps underestimated the users ability to energize that unrest and sustain it. So, was it worth it for Apple? I believe in the long term, yes it was. It was a necessary evil. Given there was going to be a serious push back against the product, was the release well handled? Absolutely not at all. It was mismanaged from NAB on, and further compounded with the actual release. The primary mismanagement was the refusal or reluctance to address what they knew was coming. Ignoring it, pretending nothing was going to happen, all was going to be rosy was just silly, and a case of marketing hopes and dreams overruling common sense and competent management.

All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Coming in 2011 "Complete Training for FCPX" from Class on Demand
"Final Cut Pro X for iMovie and Final Cut Express Users" from Focal Press


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James Culbertson
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 21, 2011 at 5:11:13 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "This more in line with my question, which is really asking if what FCP X offers is really in line with the drama Apple has chosen to create around it?"

Apple created software. A small group of vocal FCP users created drama around it. Most editors, producers, directors,... have barely noticed (if they have noticed at all). Some have started to use FCPX along with other editing tools, others are waiting until it develops a bit more. Same as it ever was.

Personally, I continue to follow this kind of thread because I am fascinated by the psychology of it...

But it's starting to feel a bit pathological, like there is a need for an intervention of some kind. Have any of you considered therapy?


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Clint Wardlow
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 21, 2011 at 5:28:42 pm

[James Culbertson] "Apple created software. A small group of vocal FCP users created drama around it. Most editors, producers, directors,... have barely noticed (if they have noticed at all)."

I am kind of curious where you got this information. Did you take a survey? Though it is only anecdotal, most of the editors I personally know are talking up a storm about FCPX and its implications.



[James Culbertson] "Have any of you considered therapy?"

Nope. Have you?


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 21, 2011 at 5:44:20 pm

[James Culbertson] "Apple created software. A small group of vocal FCP users created drama around it."

So, you're suggesting that taking over the SuperMeet in Vegas at the last minute, booting out Avid and Adobe and all scheduled vendors, then waiting two months to spring the EOL of FCS on the same day as the release of FCPX, do not constitute drama created by Apple?

[James Culbertson] "Personally, I continue to follow this kind of thread because I am fascinated by the psychology of it..."

As am I, hence the reason I posed the initial question. Go back and read my initial post again and you'll see I called this a tempest in a teapot that has become blown out of proportion, especially given what Apple actually delivered.

However, to suggest that users created the drama is just patently false. Yes, users are continuing to react to the drama Apple created, but given that many businesses have been "dramatically" impacted by Apple's move, it's probably to be expected that many are still discussing it around the proverbial water cooler.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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James Culbertson
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 21, 2011 at 10:23:08 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "However, to suggest that users created the drama is just patently false. Yes, users are continuing to react to the drama Apple created, but given that many businesses have been "dramatically" impacted by Apple's move,..."

We cannot always control how we are impacted by life, but we can control (if we are aware) how we respond or react to that impact. This is the root of personal responsibility and freedom.

Apple created an impact (as any major change would), but did not create any drama, because the drama you speak of is in the response of (some) users. Human response is stimulus-based not causal; otherwise we would all react the same way, and we obviously don't.

Another major piece of this is the ability to remember history (in this case, the historical updake of new editing and graphics tools reaching back to the advent of the Moviola). To the extent that our thinking becomes a-historical, we lose perspective, and lose control over our response-ability.


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Les Kaye
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 19, 2011 at 8:03:25 pm

[Tom Wolsky] "Their interest in software for computers is pretty limited."

Astute comment Tom. Still, there's a (very small) part of me that thinks perhaps Tim Cook won't be as rigid about these decisions as Steve Jobs, and that perhaps he might make things right.

I'm of mixed feeling about the rollout: I can understand the change in architecture, and I can even understand a change in UI. Let's face it, the editing workflow is basically one that goes back 40 years. It's the wholesale dropping of features and dismissal of FCP's core customer base that's head-scratching. It's never really a good idea to tell your users that you're dropping features. Something Netflix has also just discovered.

IMHO, since FCP is basically a rounding error to Apple these days, what would be the best thing at this point for its users would be for Apple to simply sell the Pro-App division. Which I also know will never happen.

So yes, while there needed to be a change. it was a debacle on all levels: technical, PR, etc. Apple did NOT come out smelling like a rose.

http://www.leskaye.net


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Clint Wardlow
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 19, 2011 at 8:20:14 pm

On a personal level, it was worth it in someways because it put the Adobe Production Suite in my price range. Admittedly I am not "professional" on the same level as some on this forum. I consider myself an experimental filmmaker. I don't really make a lot of money on my projects.

I've lusted after the CS5 production suite since it was announced, if only to get my hands on Photoshop Extended and AfterEffects. But the $1,600 price tag was daunting at best. I snapped it up at $850.

On the downside, the EOL of Color was a blow. I was hoping for many years of upgrades. I tried free DaVinchi Lite--and frankly it just doesn't get the job done with its myriad of restrictions. To purchase DaVinchi Resolve and the associated hardware to make it work at its best, I would have to hemorrhage cash.

Was it worth it? Strictly on a personal level, I would say yes and no. Yes 'cause of the temporary price drop in Adobe....no because of the EOL of affordable color grading.

No matter how the FCPX thingy plays out in the future, the shake up it stirred did open up some purchasing opportunities that were priced out of range for a filmmaker on a budget like myself.


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Jim Giberti
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 19, 2011 at 9:01:20 pm

I'm just in my first week of really knee deep work with it. I've been at it and nothing else for a few days. With that in mind, It would be presumptuous to do an honest comparison of my experience vs 7

However I will say this - nothing I've experienced so far was worth the drama they created. In order for this much upheaval and confusion to have been "worth it" the program would have had to have immediately apparent advantages to the professional community for one simple reason - the "P" in FCP.

Given the funding available to them, there should have been an integration team working along side the development team for the last year or so to guarantee that the things that make it not "P" were there upon release. And for gawds sake hire a communications firm to teach you how to talk to your customers.

And I like the program.
But as an 11 year FCP user, I should respect Apple more not less as a company.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 19, 2011 at 9:14:50 pm

[Jim Giberti] "nothing I've experienced so far was worth the drama they created. In order for this much upheaval and confusion to have been "worth it" the program would have had to have immediately apparent advantages to the professional community for one simple reason - the "P" in FCP."

I honestly expected more answers like yours Jim, even among those unwavering fans of what X has managed to deliver.

In all sincerity, when I look at quantity and quality of what has actually been delivered, vs. the quantity and quality of the drama Apple chose to create around the delivery, I'm absolutely flabbergasted, and I'm really surprised we seem to be among the minority in that regard.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Bill Davis
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 19, 2011 at 9:01:28 pm

The hallmark of great change is, in a word - disruption.

We're in yet another era where fundamental disruption is everywhere.
Heck the whole idea of a "virtual community" like this one is largely disruptive in and of itself. Just ask the trade mags who've seen their ad revenue disappear toward the banners over there on the sides of this screen!

FCP-X is also disruption writ large.

Some here have little tolerance for disruption, others embrace it. (as it has ever been throughout human history)

So David, to directly address your question, the tumult wasn't just necessary - it was inevitable. Without regular disruption things remain the same. And in a rapidly transformational world - staying the same Is actually falling behind.

That Apple video that famously started "Here's to the crazy one's..." was a pretty good clue to the company's appetite for disruption.

That anyone was truly surprised by FCP-X was just an indication that we'd forgotton to listen for a while to what they were saying all along.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Jim Giberti
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 19, 2011 at 9:18:20 pm

[Bill Davis] "So David, to directly address your question, the tumult wasn't just necessary - it was inevitable. Without regular disruption things remain the same. And in a rapidly transformational world - staying the same Is actually falling behind."

I have to disagree Bill, organizations, businesses, and governments all have one thing in common- at their best they exist to serve their members/customers/citizens. Ask any average person what they want in their life and "tumult" and "disruption" will fall at the very bottom of anyone's list - business or individual.

A good business or organization should be judged on how they manage important change - not simply their ability to create it.


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Clint Wardlow
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 19, 2011 at 9:34:32 pm

[Jim Giberti] "A good business or organization should be judged on how they manage important change - not simply their ability to create it."

In fact the business world is full of massive failures that involved changes that were considered "too" radical or disruptive. Just look at the "New" Coke. Or if you want movie examples, look at "Halloween 3: Season of the Witch."

No matter how FCPX plays out as a viable NLE, the manner in which Apple released it was a massive PR failure. And despite its defense by many on this forum, FCPX is going to have to go a long way to win back a lot of folks in the editing community. The brand name may already be too tainted.

Frankly, I think it was a huge miscalculation on Apple's part. And it fostered a lot of mistrust (deserved or not) of their motives and future goals when it comes to professional software and hardware.


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Rick Dupea
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Dec 4, 2011 at 4:12:59 am

I'm pretty sure the mistrust is deserved. I hope they can change course and recover, because I love FCP7, and wish X had feature parity. That would be worth it all.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 19, 2011 at 9:41:14 pm

[Jim Giberti] "I have to disagree Bill, organizations, businesses, and governments all have one thing in common- at their best they exist to serve their members/customers/citizens. Ask any average person what they want in their life and "tumult" and "disruption" will fall at the very bottom of anyone's list - business or individual."

I wholeheartedly agree with you Jim, and in this case I've always believed the drama involved vs. the payoff have been a total disconnect.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Tom Wolsky
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 12:02:53 am

"businesses .....- at their best they exist to serve their ..... customers"

This is an early 20th century/early capitalism view. Businesses exist to serve their owners, shareholders, or other investors for their profit. What's good for them is good for business. The customer is of minimal concern. Especially a small group of customers.

All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Coming in 2011 "Complete Training for FCPX" from Class on Demand
"Final Cut Pro X for iMovie and Final Cut Express Users" from Focal Press


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 12:10:42 am

[Tom Wolsky] ""businesses .....- at their best they exist to serve their ..... customers"

This is an early 20th century/early capitalism view. Businesses exist to serve their owners, shareholders, or other investors for their profit. What's good for them is good for business. The customer is of minimal concern. Especially a small group of customers."


Gosh, for the fist time in months I finally get to play the baby-faced, disagreeable, brat.

Tom, without customers a business is only a hobby.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Tom Wolsky
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 2:39:49 am

Steve Jobs' hobby is doing quite well precisely because it's willing to give up some customers for the potential of a great many more. That potential market in a marginal portion of their business made the risk, however great, well worthwhile. If it fails not much is lost to Apple; if it succeeds it's a nice revenue stream. Either pro apps turns some good numbers, make sales, and develops new customers, or it fails and not much is lost by Apple in the larger scheme of things. It's a classic strategic gambit that almost never has a down side. Throw out an expendable part of your force if it has a chance to create major disruption and have more impact that it should warrant. The usual result is a minor victory without much consequence to the overall plan. Sometimes however it creates tipping points, not that I think this is going to be one of them.

All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Coming in 2011 "Complete Training for FCPX" from Class on Demand
"Final Cut Pro X for iMovie and Final Cut Express Users" from Focal Press


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Gerald Baria
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 7:55:06 am

I read somewhere how Apple is unique in its ways that they are actually happy when an older product of them gets cannibalized by a new one. Like how the iPad is cannibalizing the Mac, and the iPhone cannibalizing the iPod. Just as Steve told in his Stanford speech, that "death is the greatest invention of life. For it eliminates the old, to make way for the new. "

I think the mental process going on with FCPX is to be as future proof as possible. To leave old standards or languages or workflow behind and completely design a new NLE from the ground up prioritizing the new and emerging technologies that will come. To reel in the ever increasing users of all digital workflow and independent production.

They choose to have this market and in a way, they are also leaving all the people who are so held up in their old ways and are not anymore capable of learning anything new behind. THEY ARE SACRIFICING THE OLD, TO MAKE WAY FOR THE NEW. They're giving that small group up to Adobe, Avid..cause they know eventually when those people die and their younger new gen execs take their place, they will switch back to the future prooof NLE that is FCPX anyway. And dont even think it will require a whole new hardware overhaul cause it wont. FCPX is designed to be as processor efficient as possible so that even laptops can run it well.

Quobetah
New=Better


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Dominic Deacon
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 21, 2011 at 1:39:55 am

Why is FCPX more future proof than the competition? It's all very well to throw out the past but if you're not bringing something that is superior then why will people pick it up?

[Gerald Baria] " And dont even think it will require a whole new hardware overhaul cause it wont. FCPX is designed to be as processor efficient as possible so that even laptops can run it well."

Compared to FCP7 it might be efficent and fast. But not necessarily compared to the competition. Check out the speed and effeciency of Edius. I can chuck files of any format, high or standard definition on the same timeline, colour grade, then watch the results back in before/after split screen in real time all without any rendering at any point. On a laptop. Plus I've got all the export options, viewers, multi-cam, options for external monitors etc that you expect from a professional piece of software.

Why is this less future proof than FCPX? More importantly why would you purchase your professional editing gear from a company who has shown they are happy to EOL professional software overnight and damn the consequences?


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Walter Soyka
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 19, 2011 at 9:33:05 pm

[Bill Davis] "The hallmark of great change is, in a word - disruption."

This seems tautological.

I'd argue that while disruption is a form of change, and progress requires change, disruption is neither necessary nor sufficient for progress.

I disagree with Gerald Baria when he claims "newer=better" in his signature. Newer is newer, and newer may be different, but newer is quantitative and better is qualitative, so they strike me as tough to equate.

DRW's question acknowledges that FCPX has been disruptive -- but the question is, are the benefits of that disruption worth its cost?

You may say the answer to that question is yes, but then I'd ask another: could similar benefits have been realized with less disruption?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 19, 2011 at 9:39:15 pm

[Walter Soyka] "DRW's question acknowledges that FCPX has been disruptive -- but the question is, are the benefits of that disruption worth its cost?"

yes. Its a very good and simple question.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 19, 2011 at 10:01:14 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "yes. Its a very good and simple question.
"


Yes! Thanks for mentioning that Aindreas.

I very carefully crafted the question, because I do see this a simple matter of disproportionate action and reaction, that should make little sense to anyone. Or so I thought.

I see this entire overly dramatic debacle as a tempest in a teapot that has unnecessarily become something of monolithic proportions, far out of keeping with the reality of the issues at hand and completely out of whack with what has actually been delivered.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 19, 2011 at 10:09:33 pm

yes. no matter what way you cut it - apple is a strange brew - our adherence to them, and our various reactions to what they have done here to the editing application we all used.

if this was a discussion about such an unimaginable change to any other industry standard application outside of the apple shell, the conversation, I think, would be different and simpler.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Chris Harlan
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 19, 2011 at 11:57:07 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "if this was a discussion about such an unimaginable change to any other industry standard application outside of the apple shell, the conversation, I think, would be different and simpler.
"


No question.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 19, 2011 at 9:46:38 pm

[Walter Soyka] "DRW's question acknowledges that FCPX has been disruptive -- but the question is, are the benefits of that disruption worth its cost?

You may say the answer to that question is yes, but then I'd ask another: could similar benefits have been realized with less disruption?"


I'd suggest that the benefits might have been vastly superior if Apple had chosen an entirely different and less disruptive path.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Jim Giberti
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 19, 2011 at 10:32:50 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "I'd suggest that the benefits might have been vastly superior if Apple had chosen an entirely different and less disruptive path."

That's not only your question David, but the $64,000 question - why'd ya do that?


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Andy Neil
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 12:55:01 am

[David Roth Weiss] "I'd suggest that the benefits might have been vastly superior if Apple had chosen an entirely different and less disruptive path."

I guess my question would be, what should they have done? And would the reaction be all that different?

If you assume that Apple made the decision at some point to completely redesign FCP when they did the 64bit rewrite, and that those making the decisions fully believed that the paradigm shift was ultimately going to be a much better way to work, how then do you bring this program to market?

Many people have suggested that they shouldn't have used the name Final Cut, and instead should have called it iMovie Pro. But really, would the backlash have been any different? After all, FCP users have waited 2 years for a major update to FCP. Would they not be up in arms to find that all this time, Apple was working on iMovie Pro instead of updating FCP?

What about if Apple hadn't stopped selling FCS3 to coincide with the launch? Sure, some of the ire directed at FCPX might have been lessened in the short term, but anyone looking at the situation in a position to buy new NLE seats would have to be asking themselves if this didn't just signify the end of FCS even if it was not announced as EOL. Would anyone actually think that FCS and FCPX would both continue to be updated?

Is there any circumstance where bringing this app to market doesn't result in this very aptly named "civil war"? I have a hard time imagining any set of choices where this would have been a PR win.

Andy

http://www.timesavertutorials.com


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 1:25:53 am

[Andy Neil] "Is there any circumstance where bringing this app to market doesn't result in this very aptly named "civil war"? I have a hard time imagining any set of choices where this would have been a PR win."

I respectfully disagree with you on this Andy, and I assure you, no one at Apple is standing-up proudly at their Monday morning marketing conferences to take responsibility for the FCPX launch.

Timing is everything, and in PR that most certainly holds true. The entire NAB SuperMeet thing was an incredibly stupid blunder that put Apple in a hugely defensive position from day 1. Making a last-second grab at NAB with all the histrionics and drama they drummed-up for their vapid 45-minute sneak was completely unnecessary, likely ego driven, and very foolish. And then springing the EOL of FCS3 on everyone two months later without any warning was just the icing on the cake that made the whole mess unpalatable.

If Apple truly had a hard time imagining their set of choices, they could have and should have waited.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Andy Neil
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 1:52:20 am

Forgive me if I'm mis-reading you David, but are you saying that if Apple had not shown up at NAB, or EOL'd FCS3 at the product launch, it would have prevented or suppressed the backlash they're currently getting?

BTW, I don't disagree that the launch was a PR disaster for all the reasons you stated, but even without those mis-steps, you would still have a radically different piece of software, a closed system (initially) sprung on people with no warning.

Andy

http://www.timesavertutorials.com


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 2:21:17 am

[Andy Neil] "Forgive me if I'm mis-reading you David, but are you saying that if Apple had not shown up at NAB, or EOL'd FCS3 at the product launch, it would have prevented or suppressed the backlash they're currently getting?"

If I had all the answers I'd probably be working at Apple.

I don't have them all and I'm not working at Apple, but I do know that drawing lots of attention to FCPX at the sneak was Apple's primary mistake, that indeed setup the perfect conditions for what ultimately has become this "civil war." Even worse, it was not done to show off Apple's still-in-alpha software, rather it was simply a ploy to try one-up Avid, making it an absolutely unnecessary ego-driven error in judgement. Perhaps someday we'll find out more about the process when somebody spills...

[Andy Neil] "even without those mis-steps, you would still have a radically different piece of software, a closed system (initially) sprung on people with no warning."

Then why spring it without warning?

People can handle all kinds things in this world if they are properly prepped in advance and if the product shown holds great promise. The problem with X was improper audience prep, and a product that was being shown way too early in its life-cycle.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Bill Davis
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 5:19:40 am

[David Roth Weiss] "The entire NAB SuperMeet thing was an incredibly stupid blunder that put Apple in a hugely defensive position from day 1. Making a last-second grab at NAB with all the histrionics and drama they drummed-up for their vapid 45-minute sneak was completely unnecessary, likely ego driven, and very foolish. And then springing the EOL of FCS3 on everyone two months later without any warning was just the icing on the cake that made the whole mess unpalatable.

If Apple truly had a hard time imagining their set of choices, they could have and should have waited."


I'm sorry David but what you wrote above is almost totally revisionist history.

Were you even at the Supermeet? You couldn't have been - unless you had some kind of terrible cold that made you functionally blind and deaf.

I was one of the guys helping Michael Horton and Dan Berube run the SuperMeet and your description is so disconnected from reality as to be LAUGHABLE.

I was the guy managing the admission line, I was tstanding with the team from Apple and the Security guard who finally took down the rope and let people in. I don't work for Apple, I'm just one of the guys who helped Mike start the LAFCPUG at their first meeting.

The attendees applauded, gasped, and even CHEERED regularly throughout the meeting as feature after feature was unveiled.

It was only AFTER THE FACT when the "pros" started picking at it days later in forums like this one that the "story" started to focus on what it lacked rather than what it what it was at that introduction.

And above, sorry, but in my view you're continuinga history of SPIN in the face of FACTS.

What everyone there saw was Randy unveil feature after feature. The Magnetic Timeline, Clip Collisions, etc. etc, etc, and the crowd LOVED every darn second of it.

Don't believe me? Go search out the Video Clips of the meeting. They're on the web.

VAPID? Not by any stretch of the human imagination.

I'd welcome anyone else who was actually in the audience to weigh in here.

But let's keep things real. OK?

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Mike Jeffs
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 2:29:25 pm

[Bill Davis] "Were you even at the Supermeet? You couldn't have been - unless you had some kind of terrible cold that made you functionally blind and deaf."

I was there too, I was sitting close to the front on stage right. Yes people were cheering and gasping, but i wasn't and neither were some of the more seasoned people around me. We understand Marketing hype (Heck we are responsible for Making most of it right), from everything I notice the majority of the cheers gasps and other were from the FCPX Target Market. What I will affectionately call the DSLR market, Those that are trying to start out in the business. But from the majority of the longtime editors as soon as it was done we all starting saying well what about Multicam, What about exports, what about this, what about that, ultimately everything that we currently say we can't live without.

So yes the NAB meet worked and didn't work at the same time. it work to get those apple sees at the target Market hyped up, but those of us who go to NAB not to be WOWED but to actually do work and research I think it utterly ended up back firing. before the Meet I kinda was hoping the presentation would be more Akin to a Large scale "Whisper room" that we see all over NAB, but in the end it was just another Apple Marketing gimmick.

So for me the Drama it created was definitely not worth it. I the college environment i have to have budget plans 1 to 2 years out. this whole FCPX has become a major headache because i am now forced to try and figure out what will be the best for our students all while trying to be a fortune teller.

Mike Jeffs
Video Coordinator
BYU-Idaho


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 10:22:12 pm

[Bill Davis] "Were you even at the Supermeet? You couldn't have been - unless you had some kind of terrible cold that made you functionally blind and deaf.

I was one of the guys helping Michael Horton and Dan Berube run the SuperMeet and your description is so disconnected from reality as to be LAUGHABLE.
"


you know bill, I remember you writing a reaaaally long whining post there a while back about people being mean and calling people names, calling you names even, complaining to Cow management came up, all this kind of stuff, you made a real stink as I recall, and then I read that stuff up above and remember that you are generally a hair away from blowhard condescending and contemptuous of your fellow forum members.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions. Unless your first name is Bill, in which case go half caps and just hose on people with really long condescending overblown posts whenever you feel like it"-Justice O'Connor


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Bill Davis
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 22, 2011 at 10:15:37 pm

Aindreas.

Fairly pointed out.

I apologize for my tone.

I was just SHOCKED to see someone characterize an event that I worked very hard to help present for the SuperMeet team characterized as something so totally ALIEN to what I remember it to be.

As I clearly mentioned, I spent the night working the event. So I didn't have the luxury of assessing any "real time" web posting. So I had no recollection that a part of the audience was leaping to trash FCP-X since as I noted, I didn't here a SINGLE voice express that from the crowd.

But with the benefit of hindsight, I'm still not convinced that whatever "trashing" that took place was more actual assessment of real weaknesses, or more "I don't understand this, so I'm going to call it CRAP before everyone else does."

People are STILL spreading the word that it's a "failure." And is it really? By what standard? Can't one cut video on it? That's FALSE, it does that quite well. Can't one do "professional" work on it? Again, FALSE. I have and continue to. Is the "Magnetic Timeline" such a poor design that it stops people from getting their work done? Again, FALSE. It's simply different.

People can and will argue whether these are the "best" methods of interface design. But they are functional and robust and they also, arguably, would meet the needs of the VAST majority of working video editors out there today outside the "big shop" pros.

So excuse my hyperbole.

(It's a debate tool that both of us possibly rely on a bit overmuch, no?)

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Jim Giberti
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 19, 2011 at 10:29:34 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I disagree with Gerald Baria when he claims "newer=better" in his signature. Newer is newer, and newer may be different, but newer is quantitative and better is qualitative, so they strike me as tough to equate.
"


To that broader philosophical point Walter, with the unprecedented industrial and technological change that our age is experiencing, I think it's fair to say that there is more and more evidence that "older" is often better.
We are, and will be for a long time to come, dealing with big new directions for mankind that have proven far from "better" for countless people.

Considering every new idea to be better is classic human hubris. "Forget about what those old folks used to do this is the new way" is counter intuitive. It's ignorant to disregard invaluable, accumulated experience, which is why it's so valued in so many cultures. Definitely not in the newest of the new, the US.

Back to Apple. If they were full of conviction as to the revolutionary nature of X, they should have been armed to the teeth with arguments, presentations and lots and lot's of information regarding their vision long before 6/21. The way they handled the Super Meet, for instance and in retrospect, was handled far more like a typical American political event than an interaction between visionaries and their creative client base.

I can't think of anyone, from the existing user base, to the third party developers, to the people who were working with NDAs while developing the training products, that are happy with the way Apple handled this.

How could that happen?


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 19, 2011 at 9:37:29 pm

I do think bill, that the crazy ones here were the Ubillos lead software engineers in apple.

crazy isn't always judicious or good. not with a standing industry mainstay. Hubris is crazy and people really seem not to be taking the apple medicine here?
Its chugging away on the appstore, as niche pages might, but as an editing platform, this thing feels more than a tad dead in the water.
Its a dodo with a bitter vengeance in soho.

outside of mythical unicorn age of aquarius single new adopters, do we have any signature adoption of this editing system that anyone can call to? at any scale?

why should anyone entering into editing invest real training time in what is starting to look, at least to me, as a bit of a weird apple curio?

Does anyone remember the Edius judgement editor with the 3D timeline?


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Steve Connor
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 19, 2011 at 9:50:25 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "outside of mythical unicorn age of aquarius single new adopters"

Still with the insults then?

"My Name is Steve and I'm an FCPX user"


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 19, 2011 at 10:00:07 pm

no hey steve -

I'm making a broad generalisation about the future market - not any professional individual here and now - there's a meme that this product is going to gain such adoption from an as yet unseen new base that it will wash back into the broader professional milieu in a few years time - I'm only calling *that* into question - not a single person here. there are indeed people like yourself putting real time into this application and fair ball.
..was genuinely making a different point about the supposed product trajectory.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Steve Connor
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 19, 2011 at 10:07:07 pm

Fair point, I'm putting the time in because I can and if it goes wrong I can always switch to PPro. Apple completely blew the launch, I just wish they would make the effort and give us a proper roadmap.

The .1 release will tell us all we need to know

"My Name is Steve and I'm an FCPX user"


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 19, 2011 at 10:12:09 pm

yep


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 19, 2011 at 11:49:58 pm

Permission to speak freely, sir?

I guess, I am one of those unicorn fan boy thingys that's been mentioned. I'm comfortable with my perceived fanuality, and I give credit where credit is due. In my tiny corner of this existence, Apple deserves credit for what they have accomplished up until this point with Final Cut Studio.

There's no question, the NAB 2011 release show was a total disaster. So what... Everybody makes mistakes, and luckily for everyone involved, the public has a short memory when and if they get what they want. Part of being a production professional/human being is rolling with the punches, and to know that perfection is a myth. Hence, gaffer tape.

Truthfully, it's not ready to be worth much yet and who knows if and when it will be.

I guess I see more of a future here at the "FCPX Test Labs" then at an Adobe Rainn Wilson ADR presentation, or an Avid pump-up video that starts off with legal copy saying that the stuff I am about to watch might never happen. Or going full bore to Windows because the GPUs have 1200 processors instead of a lowly 500, or whatever that metric is.

Whatever. It's all marketing, it needs to be done. Create the excitement.

The next FCPX release will tell us if it's going to grow up or not. At that point, external monitoring will be "complete" which means that AV Foundation must be or will be in an acceptable state for something other than iOS to use it. Capture card companies will show us how they interact with the NLE, or not. This will give us a bit of insight as to just how far behind the curtain we are allowed to see. The new FCPXML will hopefully have what it needs to at least send more data than what's available now.

In the mean time, there's always the now instantaneously legendary "XML v5" to get my FCP Legacy projects to other platforms.

Deep down, I do appreciate what's happening. I really do. I was getting really sick of sitting still, but there weren't many companies that really seemed poised to make a move. More credit to Apple, they are the ONLY company that designs NLEs that could attempt even 1/16 of the shit they pulled and survive. I also know that software development is really hard. I am not a developer, but I have worked with some, and it is really hard, resources aside. The stakes keeping getting raised, people (us) expect simplicity of really confusing and complicated tasks, and if it doesn't work quite right we get frustrated because they simply don't have the capability to fix it. When the door handle breaks, we go get a screw driver, when XML doesn't work, we lose money and confidence.

On the bright side, there's things to be excited about. AV Foundation with Color Sync, Thunderbolt, XSan built in to Lion, SAN Support built in to FCPX which indicates some sort of real sharing environment and not a bolt on option, really fast/small/efficient/powerful computers, a whole hearted attempt at a modern organizational structure that acknowledges that video is now data, cryptic patterns, crystal balls and of course, unicorns. There's also the fact that Apple has spoken and told us what is coming, when it's coming, and then delivered on time in true "Broadcast News" fashion.

Good for us, but it's up to them and some of us won't know until it's obvious. Right now, it's not very obvious to me whether or not to stay or to go. That means I'll wait for a while more. No matter what happens, when it does become obvious, I will have Apple to thank and it probably will have been worth it.


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Tom Wolsky
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 19, 2011 at 11:37:18 pm

"do we have any signature adoption of this editing system that anyone can call to?"

Not sure why you see this as of being of any importance. What's the signature adoption of iMovie? Signature adoption of Premiere for that matter.

I just don't think this is relevant to anything but a very small portion of a potential user base. Frankly I think Apple has realized the market space is an irrelevancy to them. Clearly you think the application is a complete failure. We'll see. I think it's doing well. The App Store is selling a lot of product. FCP is high in the App Store. Seems logical to me.

All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Coming in 2011 "Complete Training for FCPX" from Class on Demand
"Final Cut Pro X for iMovie and Final Cut Express Users" from Focal Press


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Jim Glickert
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 19, 2011 at 9:38:03 pm

Is FCP X really worth it? Not to me. I didn't buy it, and instead jumped on the Premiere Pro bandwagon. FCP worked fine for me for the last four years, and I was eagerly anticipating something awesome after patiently waiting two years for a major update. With FCP being EOL'd, and having seen other Apple software I own get thrown on the junk pile, Apple has taught me that they're simply not reliable. In that sense, I guess FCP X was indeed worth it to me.

I just can't help but think of how different the current situation would be had Apple delivered an awesome FCP 8 that had those features we were hoping for, and perhaps more.


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Jamie Franklin
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 12:39:22 am

I don't know if it's worth all the drama, but my one reflection on this might answer that.

I have never been so thoroughly baffled by a product before (and I bought WME). Since NAB my expectations lowered, but I thought there would be no way in brimstone that I wouldn't be going full steam in X at this point. From the amount of rendering I've done in the last few years, this couldn't come soon enough. Especially when you get strong-armed into using FC7 on certain projects. I never imagined it would be this drastically unusable.

I would give it so much latitude if Color saw an upgrade and it kept the fundamentals we all took for granted in 7. From the glorious sequence matrix to it's canvas.

I am still shock and awed by what a bungle this was, and NAB, try as I might to erase it, still lingers as a complete con job.

I don't think it's because of Apple and it's pedestal, although that is arguable, I think it's more dramatic because of the legacy it ignored and left behind on so many levels it's cosmic in it's absurdity.

:D


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 2:12:53 am

In some ways we may be viewing the metrics entirely incorrectly. There seems to be pretty good anecdotal indication that the majority of the "2 million FC users" are actually FCE and not FCP/FCS owners/users. If that's true then, in fact, FCP X is a very worthwhile replacement for FCE. So the reality may be that FCP is really dead without any replacement suitable for advanced workflows. From that frame of mind, the uproar Apple started is probably good PR to get the FCE base interested. The old adage of "just make sure you spell the name right."

Killing a truly advanced-feature NLE is simply one more step in Apple's extraction from the enterprise world.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 2:28:22 am

[Oliver Peters] "There seems to be pretty good anecdotal indication that the majority of the "2 million FC users" are actually FCE and not FCP/FCS owners/users. If that's true then, in fact, FCP X is a very worthwhile replacement for FCE. So the reality may be that FCP is really dead without any replacement suitable for advanced workflows. From that frame of mind, the uproar Apple started is probably good PR to get the FCE base interested."

Well, that certainly does not seem to jive with few things Apple has published about their intent, so I find this rather confusing Oliver. But, this entire episode in NLE history is totally confusing, so adding additional confusion is only fitting.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 2:30:50 am

[David Roth Weiss] "Well, that certainly does not seem to jive with few things Apple has published about their intent,"

I think their intent is simply to merge the two products and err on the side of the broader market, which is the less demanding customer base.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 2:36:40 am

DRW-

What are your future NLE plans?

Oliver?

Anyone else? Has anyone made 'the decision' to switch?


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 2:52:48 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "What are your future NLE plans?"

Since I freelance, the decision is up to my clients and most are hanging onto FCP7 as long as possible. Some were also burned by the EOL of Xserve and FC Server, so they aren't really happy with Apple, yet at the same time, many of them - like some on this forum - are holding out hope that Apple will still change the app. At least one has put out a corporate edict of no more Apple products, period. I think that's a bit extreme, but this customer has also had less-than-satisfactory support with an Xsan system. Where I have influence I am advising against FCP X because it simply doesn't fit their workflows. I am recommending Premiere Pro or Media Composer depending in their comfort zone.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 3:05:29 am

[Oliver Peters] "Since I freelance"

Well, I'm sure you mean expensivelance.

[Oliver Peters] "Some were also burned by the EOL of Xserve and FC Server"

This is the underrated dark horse of the whole debacle, if you ask me. Lots and lots of money was lost to expensive FCServer installs with the associate network, much more than a few iMacs and fcstudio, with truly no replacement. That would be maddening for sure. (On a side note, metaSAN is pretty kick-ass by the way. Sorta crazy, but amazing).

Thanks for your answer.

Jeremy


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 3:01:07 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "DRW-

What are your future NLE plans?"


I've been pretty openly courting Avid. We're fooling around a lot, but not sleeping together just yet, primarily because my clients haven't green-lighted that move for now.

While there are many things I prefer about the Adobe suite, unless Hollyweird gets in bed with Premiere I'll have to go with Avid, like it or not. It's strictly business...

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 3:58:35 am

[David Roth Weiss] "While there are many things I prefer about the Adobe suite, unless Hollyweird gets in bed with Premiere I'll have to go with Avid, like it or not. It's strictly business..."

Thanks, DRW.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 6:05:40 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Anyone else? Has anyone made 'the decision' to switch?
"


Like Oliver, I'm partially dependent on client equipment, and many of my clients are heavily into FCS. As, for that matter, am I. On studio work that I cut on my own bench--when no pressing deadline looms--I've started to integrate Avid by cutting select reels and rough cuts and then transferring them over to FCS for tightening and finishing. I will probably be comfortable finishing on Avid by next Spring. I will be editing on FCS for as long as there are seats to do so, which I expect will be the next several years. I believe fairly firmly that Avid will retain its dominance here in Los Angeles, and that FCS attrition seats will mostly go back to them. I would be very happy to explore PPro more deeply, if I thought anyone here would take it seriously, and I do not discount that a heavy campaign by Adobe could change my disposition.

Finally, I would be absolutely delighted to be wrong about my assessment of FCP X's future, though I think the writing is pretty firmly on the wall, and was written with a Sharpie.


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Tom Wolsky
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 2:47:37 am

"There seems to be pretty good anecdotal indication that the majority of the "2 million FC users" are actually FCE and not FCP/FCS owners/users."

I've seen this suggested before but I'm not sure what it's based on. One statistic I can offer is the that traffic on the Apple forums was about three larger for FCP than for FCE.

All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Coming in 2011 "Complete Training for FCPX" from Class on Demand
"Final Cut Pro X for iMovie and Final Cut Express Users" from Focal Press


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 2:55:54 am

[Tom Wolsky] "but I'm not sure what it's based on"

In my case, it's a statistic given to me informally by a number of plug-in developers based on their perception from sales. No hard and fast numbers, though.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Rafael Amador
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 2:58:37 am

[Tom Wolsky] "If a market has reached or is nearing saturation, it becomes necessary to change the market. FCP probably exceeded the number of "professional" editors in the world. It was clear there was really no room for growth. "
I understand that you can't see what is going on out of the USA, but the room for FCP growth was simply HUGE.
The USA will always a key market for Apple because is their natural market (they can't try to bring nowhere else what doesn't work at home), but in terms of money and users, the USA market represents a fraction of Apple market.

[Oliver Peters] "In some ways we may be viewing the metrics entirely incorrectly. There seems to be pretty good anecdotal indication that the majority of the "2 million FC users" are actually FCE and not FCP/FCS owners/users."
I don't know where this idea comes from.
Up to the posting in the COW FCP forums i would say that for every FCE user there are at least 10 FCP users and up to what I know about the video community in tree or four country FCE haven't had no penetration at all.
rafael

[Jeremy Garchow] "What are your future NLE plans?

Anyone else? Has anyone made 'the decision' to switch?"

At the moment no rush, but when needed I guess I'll go to PP.
In the past I've been long complaining about the crazy Adobe prices politics (in many places more than a 50% over the USA prices). Now they are much more reasonable.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Shane Ross
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 4:20:42 am

This being an Avid town, and I too being Expensive-lance, I use what is put in front of me. And that will more and more be Avid. For side projects I will be exploring Premiere Pro. The current job I am doing with it is a winner thus far. Working natively with a consumer cameras avi files. No rendering, background or otherwise.

But it still lacks features I need in Hollywood bays. So Avi will be the mainstay. But I do see it poised to take over the FCP 7 market here. If they do things right

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Neil Goodman
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 4:41:03 am

The switch was a no brainer for me. Im still cleaning up a few straggling projects in FCP 7 but since at my day job, its been all avid from the get go the decision was pretty easy. I already knew it, and I know i can still get freelance work with it. The only struggle i had was jumping to version 4 to 5.5 but once i changed a few settings i was cruising

When a client asks for PPRO, then ill pick it up. Ive always been up to date with the adobe suites so it will cost nothing to set up, just a couple days i imagine to get comfy with the shortcuts.

Out of curiosity, What is PPRO missing for you Shane thats in your opinion is keeping it out of Hollywood bays? I only ask, cause ive never come across it in LA and on paper its feature sets seems inline with FCP7. Up until know i thought it was based solely on reputation.

Neil Goodman: Editor of New Media Production - NBC/Universal


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Shane Ross
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 6:09:29 am

[Neil Goodman] "What is PPRO missing for you Shane thats in your opinion is keeping it out of Hollywood bays?"

- Shared project workflows. Multiple editors working with the same projects and media.

- Weak Multicam

- Weak support for IO cards (I'm using the AJA Kona LHi, and Adobe is sluggish with it)

- Media management. Because it works with media natively, there's no way to import only what you need...yet.

- Trim tool. Doesn't really have one that I see.

There are small things here and there. But I'm sure with CS6 we'll see something to contend with. But yeah, Avid will be the main staple in this town.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Neil Goodman
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 2:34:15 pm

Cool, Thank Shane.

Neil Goodman: Editor of New Media Production - NBC/Universal


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Daniel Frome
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 5:35:13 am

No, the drama hasn't been worthwhile.

Apple often creates genuinely "disruptive" products, and some people here are giving this same terminology to FCPX. They're wrong though, because this product is not disruptive in a good way and I guarantee it is only increasing the sales of their competitors - both on the lower end (Adobe) and the higher end (Avid). I highly doubt that FCPX is even making strong inroads to the consumer community we think it's marketed towards. It's probably (just a guess) one of Apple's worst selling software packages.

What surprises me nowadays is that people are still even talking about FCPX in this "debate" sort of way. I visit this FCPX forum because it's become a venting place (ie. a place where editors are actually 'talking' and not just shouting tech-specs, which we do too often) - but I honestly don't care about what actually happens to FCPX. There's too much to love about Premiere CS5 and Avid.


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Tom Wolsky
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 7:08:48 am

"It's probably (just a guess) one of Apple's worst selling software packages."

I'm curious on what you base that assessment. Until recently it was the second highest grossing app on the App Store, second only to the Lion OS.

All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Coming in 2011 "Complete Training for FCPX" from Class on Demand
"Final Cut Pro X for iMovie and Final Cut Express Users" from Focal Press


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Shane Ross
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 7:44:28 am

[Tom Wolsky] "Until recently it was the second highest grossing app on the App Store, second only to the Lion OS."

Well, it does cost $300, and the other apps range from $.99 to $4.99 on average. So that has to be taken into account. Oh, and does that take into account the refunds issued?

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Tom Wolsky
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 7:51:57 am

I still don't see it as the loser app others are making it out to be simply because it has a higher price than average. The refund rate was well below 10%. And these numbers are only sales without any account of how ridiculously easy it is to pirate.

All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Coming in 2011 "Complete Training for FCPX" from Class on Demand
"Final Cut Pro X for iMovie and Final Cut Express Users" from Focal Press


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Michael Gissing
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 7:15:23 am

In my small market, FCP X has made no impact. In an FCP town, no-one has switched from FCP 7 to X, although a few have gone to CS5.5. I know there are suburbs in New York that have more people than Tasmania but the lesson is the same. A lot of effort has gone into a turkey that one day may become a thanks giving dinner. Meanwhile we, like Apple, must make pragmatic business decisions. Unlike Apple we are happy to openly discuss ours.

Like most here, I watched the videos and the Tweets of the NAB supermeet. I recognised the herd mentality with the oohhs and ahhs and appreciated the wise views on that day from people like Walt Biscardi who started asking the questions that were ultimately answered in the negative with the release of FCP X.


And finally to answer DRW's question. No - FCP X has not been worth it. Overhyped and under done on release, along with the EOL of FCS3 has spooked the horses. The modern world runs on consumer confidence. This forum is a typical litmus of the loss of confidence in Apple for professional editing.


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Jaap Verdenius
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 10:40:44 am

The drama is in the EOL. Without it, most editors would have been curious and look forward to the day that FCX would catch up with FCP.

I think there was no need for drama. Can't companies like Apple afford to develop two editing applications simultaneously?
Look at Autodesk keeping three 3D packages alive that do the same thing (3D Studio Max, Maya, Softimage), slowly merging three customer groups. Apple could have done the same.



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James Mortner
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 11:40:35 am

I think if you have to ask the question, its probably not worth it. We're not using it here at our facility anyway, FCPX does not do what we need so we wont be investing.

Same for ITV ( large UK broadcast channel ) , same for Turner television. Same story amongst our Engineers, bosses and purchasers coming back from NAB . They're totally uninterested in it, it's not disdain or fear.


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Mark Morache
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 3:26:25 pm

Finally getting around to reading today's posts. This was a very good question David, even if it's a bit loaded.

[David Roth Weiss] "Is the magnetic timeline really worth the "crisis" that Apple created?"

Not at all. It's certainly an interesting idea. If you're trying to take the process of non-linear editing back to the drawing board, I can see the appeal of this, but in the end, if it doesn't make it easier to get the desired result, what good is it except as an intellectual exercise? I can make my visual edits fairly quickly and easily in X, but I'm taking much longer to finesse the audio, which is ironic because Apple doesn't want me to farm that out to protools, but do it all in the app. So why isn't it easier?

[David Roth Weiss] "Is FCPX really important enough to justify Apple's decision to essentially throw away everything that came before it?"

Apple is certainly a master in the game-changing business. Time after time, they make big bold moves, and they've changee the world as we know it. Final Cut Pro was certainly one of those things. It changed the face of editing, making it affordable and functional.

Final Cut X is not even close. It's like they re-invented the car with an innovative new engine and classy styling, but they didn't know when to stop re-tooling things, and they put the controls in different places so nobody could drive the thing without a great deal of difficulty.

Apple has certainly had mis-steps, but has it ever had quite the same liability for their user base? Apple deserves all the hate aimed their way.

[David Roth Weiss] "And, will the tangible benefits of X really prove valuable enough over time to justify forcing hundreds of thousands of editors to retrain and possibly retool?"

Not at all. I'm intrigued by the new interface and I've tried hard to make it work. You've all read my posts. I can't understand why they took all of these great, innovative tools, and basically cut the balls out of the thing by putting it in this awkward interface. I figure they will find ways to make it better, but only by creating more tools that would never be necessary if they never went with the magnetic timeline.

Best case scenario... Apple will give us back our ability to use a professional monitor and multi-clips. We will be given back our ability to round-trip for audio and color correcting. Someone will figure out how to use xml to go back and forth between 7 and X. One by one, Apple will address every little missing thing.

Finally, some genius will figure out how to get their new parent/child timeline paradigm to look and act like the good old track based editing that still works so much better for us, so that we will be able to make it work either way.

Everyone keeps talking about what a small share of their business are the pros like us. I'll tell you that they can sell all of the ipods and ipads they want, but there's value in having such a high-end user base that uses their tools. I consider the $2k plus that I paid for my MBP to be an investment in an awesomeness that gives me some of the same creative power as the people that inspire me. I'm editing on the same program that Walter Murch used to edit Cold Mountain (or did). Even Final Cut Express users knew that what they've learned to do on their stripped-down application would translate should they ever decide to upgrade to the pro app.

That's all gone, and I'm sad because of what FCP8 could have been.

I'll continue to use X, but I'll mutter dozens of little curses while I do it, wondering when they'll finally fix this or that. Eventually I'll make the jump and start trying to use Premiere, which I got for a very good price... thank you Apple. I'd still rather have FCP8.

---------
FCX. She tempts me, abuses me, beats me up, makes me feel worthless, then in the end she comes around, helps me get my work done, gives me hope and I can't stop thinking about her.

Mark Morache
Avid/Xpri/FCP7/FCX
Evening Magazine,Seattle, WA
http://fcpx.wordpress.com


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Clint Wardlow
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 3:54:37 pm

[Mark Morache] "Everyone keeps talking about what a small share of their business are the pros like us. I'll tell you that they can sell all of the ipods and ipads they want, but there's value in having such a high-end user base that uses their tools."

Absolutely. A friend of mine (who has little experience in editing)is getting into short docs shot on her Nikon D7000. When I suggested using FCPX (which I felt would be perfect for what she was doing), she vehemently opposed the idea. All the negative reaction from pro editors had tainted her view. Even though she wouldn't know EDL or OMF from a a hole in the wall, she was determined to use what "the pros use" and as far as she was concerned FCPX wasn't it.

And I couldn't convince her otherwise, even though I thought FCPX was perfect for what she was doing, DSLR documentaries loaded to the web. I guess all of us, no matter our film-making level, dream of playing with the big boys...and that is where Pro Editors are so important to the Final Cut brand.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 4:23:20 pm

[Clint Wardlow] "And I couldn't convince her otherwise, even though I thought FCPX was perfect for what she was doing, DSLR documentaries loaded to the web. I guess all of us, no matter our film-making level, dream of playing with the big boys...and that is where Pro Editors are so important to the Final Cut brand."

This isn't an entirely unrealistic reaction. I frequently work on projects started by non-editors. Having FCP on both ends made it easy to take their project and continue the edit. In her situation, starting with FCP X would make it much more difficult to hand it off to a professional editor down the line if she wanted or needed to do that.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 5:08:12 pm

[Clint Wardlow] "A friend of mine (who has little experience in editing)is getting into short docs shot on her Nikon D7000. When I suggested using FCPX (which I felt would be perfect for what she was doing), she vehemently opposed the idea. All the negative reaction from pro editors had tainted her view. Even though she wouldn't know EDL or OMF from a a hole in the wall, she was determined to use what "the pros use" and as far as she was concerned FCPX wasn't it."

I am not undermining the talents of your friend and I'm totally just throwing this out there, but there's a dichotomy here.

Are "the Pros" using DSLRs to make movies? Yes, they have been used in movies and TV, but don't you think there's a similarity here? From a production standpoint, DSLRs are completely hobbled, and to make them not so hobbled, you have to bolt on a bunch of third party do dads to make them work sort of like a digital video or film camera, and even then they are still not really up to par. Yet, they are all the rage and obviously good enough for some. Don't get me wrong, we use them as we have to. They are in demand. Also, we don't make movies.

Also, nary 30 days after the release of a brand new "interchange language" there's already applications that can translate to XML The Elder including this one released yesterday:

http://assistedediting.intelligentassistance.com/ProjectXto7/

Is it really about the tools, or is it just perceived attitudes about those tools?


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Clint Wardlow
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 5:26:05 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Are "the Pros" using DSLRs to make movies? Yes, they have been used in movies and TV, but don't you think there's a similarity here? From a production standpoint, DSLRs are completely hobbled, and to make them not so hobbled, you have to bolt on a bunch of third party do dads to make them work sort of like a digital video or film camera, and even then they are still not really up to par. Yet, they are all the rage and obviously good enough for some. Don't get me wrong, we use them as we have to. They are in demand. Also, we don't make movies."

The issue here isn't whether Pros use DSLRs or (even FCPX), but her perception of FCPX. Frankly, I think most of her stuff will go directly to the web. But like a lot of filmmakers (maybe even myself if I am honest about it), I think she dreams of a showing at Sundance and being hoisted to Hollywood on the shoulders of Miramax execs. And she feels FCPX isn't consistent with these lofty best-case-scenario goals. (However, even though I'm not sure about studio practices, I'm pretty sure they would want to reconstruct the film from original elements, making the choice of NLE somewhat moot.)


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Clint Wardlow
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 5:33:19 pm

Actually, now that I think about it, the one thing she would need would be EDL which FCPX doesn't have.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 5:46:25 pm

[Clint Wardlow] "Actually, now that I think about it, the one thing she would need would be EDL which FCPX doesn't have."

Nope, but there's a program that will translate the FCPx timeline to FCP7 which can give an EDL. $50.


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Clint Wardlow
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 6:17:41 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Nope, but there's a program that will translate the FCPx timeline to FCP7 which can give an EDL. $50."

Unfortunately, she doesn't have FCP7 (or really any editing system beyond imovie which came on her mac).

Confession time: one of the reasons I was aiming her towards FCPX is personal. I am sure her movie-making enterprise is going to involve me. Unlike most folks on this forum who make their living editing for hire, editing other people's stuff generally bores me to tears.

But she is my friend, and I do want to help her. I don't own FCPX and by convincing her to buy it, I could get a chance to play around in it on her imac while I teach her how to edit. Now I am afraid it is going to be me doing the editing on my system in either Premiere or FCP7 while she watches (I don't think she is willing to lay out the bucks to purchase the Adobe software and I am not even sure she can get a copy of FCS anymore).


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Tom Wolsky
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 6:23:52 pm

You might suggest she use the trial version and see if it works for her.

All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Coming in 2011 "Complete Training for FCPX" from Class on Demand
"Final Cut Pro X for iMovie and Final Cut Express Users" from Focal Press


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 6:00:23 pm

[Clint Wardlow] "The issue here isn't whether Pros use DSLRs or (even FCPX), but her perception of FCPX. Frankly, I think most of her stuff will go directly to the web. But like a lot of filmmakers (maybe even myself if I am honest about it), I think she dreams of a showing at Sundance and being hoisted to Hollywood on the shoulders of Miramax execs. And she feels FCPX isn't consistent with these lofty best-case-scenario goals."

That's right on the money. What you're saying here Clint is what I said from the beginning when I wrote, "YouTubers don't aspire to remain YouTubers."

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 6:26:40 pm

[David Roth Weiss] ""YouTubers don't aspire to remain YouTubers.""

Why not? Some of them actually get paid:

http://www.businessinsider.com/meet-the-richest-independent-youtube-stars-2...

Jeremy


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 6:33:25 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Why not? Some of them actually get paid:"

Sorry Jeremy, but that's simply not a good argument. If given half a chance, there's hardly a filmmaker anywhere who doesn't want to see their work on the big screen.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Steve Connor
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 6:49:34 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "Sorry Jeremy, but that's simply not a good argument. If given half a chance, there's hardly a filmmaker anywhere who doesn't want to see their work on the big screen.
"


Most of the larger earners on YouTube aren't making movies and a lot of what they do wouldn't translate to film or possibly even Network TV. They are playing to a generation who's viewing habits most of us don't understand or can even hope to predict.

I'm not saying FCPX is for them, it's just there is an emergence going on in YT that will pass most of us by.

"My Name is Steve and I'm an FCPX user"


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Mike Jeffs
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 6:57:20 pm

[Steve Connor] "Most of the larger earners on YouTube aren't making movies and a lot of what they do wouldn't translate to film or possibly even Network TV. They are playing to a generation who's viewing habits most of us don't understand or can even hope to predict.

I'm not saying FCPX is for them, it's just there is an emergence going on in YT that will pass most of us by."



Again i'm going to say that perception plays a huge part in this. Youtube for how many millions of people watch a video doesn't not have the same prestiage as being on Primetime TV of a Feature Film. (it might some day but now not so much)

the perception is Youtube is 15minutes of fame, where TV and Cinema = celebrity. This is why some of the top youtube people try and make the jump to tv. Rett and Link are great examples, they had one of the most popular youtube channels but they jump over to IFC which definitly has less viewership but heck there on TV

Mike Jeffs
Video Coordinator
BYU-Idaho


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 6:50:05 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "Sorry Jeremy, but that's simply not a good argument. If given half a chance, there's hardly a filmmaker anywhere who doesn't want to see their work on the big screen."

I am sure people love to see their name is lights (LED lights, of course).

I am playing devil's advocate (go figure).

Do you want to play to a few big screens, or do you want the chance at 100-433 million little screens?

Is it the size of the screen, or the quantity when it comes to the movie business? What would Miramax say?


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 7:28:02 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "I am playing devil's advocate (go figure)."

Of course... But this is probably one of those times when the devil for whom you're advocating is fighting a silly uphill battle. Even the most successful indies on Youtube aspire to make movies, and when Hollywood calls and asks them to "take a meeting," the vast majority will be on the next plane to the coast.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 7:52:10 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "Even the most successful indies on Youtube aspire to make movies, and when Hollywood calls and asks them to "take a meeting," the vast majority will be on the next plane to the coast."

And it started with a DSLR (or whatever) a laptop and a $299 editing program that had a "Send to YouTube" button. So here we are back at perception! Maybe it's Inception.


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Mike Jeffs
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 6:02:27 pm

[Clint Wardlow] "The issue here isn't whether Pros use DSLRs or (even FCPX), but her perception of FCPX"

Not just her perception of FCPX but it is of DSLRs. I don't know how many DSLR kids i have met that constently say the Canon was use to shoot this movie or that movie. why do they say that becasue they want to believe that pros do use DSLRs then in turn they can feel like that are just like them. Perception is a poweful thing. FCPX has the perception that it isn't High end. while "some" DSLR people have the perception that what they are using is High End.

this is why the perception is that AVID is the king. is it a suprior NLE to all others in the world. i would say no its got its strengths and weakness but the perception is

AVID = Hollywood
DSLR= almost hollywood
FCPX= Not hollywood at all

Mike Jeffs
Video Coordinator
BYU-Idaho


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 5:31:48 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "From a production standpoint, DSLRs are completely hobbled, and to make them not so hobbled, you have to bolt on a bunch of third party do dads to make them work sort of like a digital video or film camera, and even then they are still not really up to par. Yet, they are all the rage and obviously good enough for some."

I'm not sure that's an apt analogy. HDSLRs didn't violate the tried and true concepts and working practices of good cinematography - lighting, lenses, exposure, focus, slow camera moves, etc. They merely brought down the price with many limitations. FCP X deviated from the accepted norms of editing in addition to reducing the price and stripping out features.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 5:45:22 pm

It wasn't meant to be a perfect match, it was more about the psychology of the whole situation as DRW brought up.

[Oliver Peters] "I'm not sure that's an apt analogy. HDSLRs didn't violate the tried and true concepts and working practices of good cinematography - lighting, lenses, exposure, focus, slow camera moves, etc. "

FCPx has audio, video, titles, color correction, the basics of any NLE. You can cut, dissolve and lay things out in time. It does not prevent you from editing anymore than a DSLR doesn't prevent you from composing a shot.

DSLRs don't have exposure check (zebras or anything useful besides taking a still and checking a histogram), audio connections, timecode or uncompressed video out.

FCPX does not have video out, industry standard interchange languages or audio tracks.

I think it's a pretty decent analogy if I do say so myself. :)


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Daniel Frome
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 9:38:19 pm

The difference here is that DSLRs, despite the many shortcomings, have some strengths that are so irresistible that there ends up being a net-gain to using them.

FCPX, however, does not have this irresistible "gotta have it" item. I think that's what they were hoping the magnetic timeline to be.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 21, 2011 at 3:40:16 am

[Daniel Frome] "The difference here is that DSLRs, despite the many shortcomings, have some strengths that are so irresistible that there ends up being a net-gain to using them.
"


Net gain to who? To which aspect of the production from buyer, to labor, to seller, to distributor?

[Daniel Frome] "FCPX, however, does not have this irresistible "gotta have it" item. I think that's what they were hoping the magnetic timeline to be."

I have no idea what "they" were hoping the magnetic timeline to be in the greater sense, except for a tool to use that supported a method of editing that fcp users are unfamiliar with. After having a decent go at fcpx recently for educational fun, and having waves of changes come back to current fcp7 projects over the past few days, I kept laughing at myself when realizing how much easier my edits would have been in the x format. This is a project that has been slowly crawling along for the better part of a year. It's been a while since I revisisted it and I had to refamiliarize myself with it. I have no less then 12 sequences of selects (so I had 13 tabs open at a timeactor a total of 18 sequences as I had 6 programs to update). The problem is, my string of selects is half used, 1/4 useless/rejected, 1/8 not used and 1/8 questionable across all sequences. There is no question fcpx organization capabilities would have helped me focus on where I need to be with less of a re-ramp-up. When untangling the 6 programs I had to update, I noticed how much easier, faster and less mechanical the process would have been in x. Truthfully.

Also, the timeline index would have helped help a lot.

So to me (the labor) the organization qualities of fcpx help me go home earlier, and more importantly, keep me more organized at a glance when the clients decide it's go time.

The timeline is a flexible idea that will change. The organizational structure of fcpx is a very welcome notion of a back bone. Something to rely on. I don't know if I "gotta have it", but it is certainly way more valuable to me than overtly compressed footage with disconnected double system sound requiring third party sync and a decent gamma curve that only holds up until asked to move.


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Tim Wilson
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 4:16:45 pm

The idea that there was "immediate strong negative reaction" to the FCPX launch from the people in the room is revisionist history -- THAT's revisionist history.

The thread that launched this forum came DURING the presentation, moment by moment ("now they're letting us in, now the Apple logo is on the screen, Walter Biscardi just walked by," etc.). There was unquestionably positive reaction, but quite a bit that was not. Here are some sample quotes:

  • I maybe speaking too soon but if this is all there is to FCP X then i am extremely disappointed.
  • Looks like the new iMovie to me. I have been editing for almost 15 years, I can edit with Final Cut Pro as it is fine, like a DEMON. It needs finishing tools, not a bunch of iMovie like sh*t. The new stuff in Final Cut is silly foo foo stuff for ProSumers.
  • Color? That's for professionals mate, has nothing to do with Final cut (any more) :) Why'd you need Color, when it's Color Corrected (or Balanced) on ingestion :)
  • I'm calling LAME DUCK. Sounds like a ProSumer Gimmick So far.
  • This one is going to be a tough one for apple to pull off from here on.
  • Hmmmm.... I am sure senior members will chime in soon but for me, apple has not been very convincing.
  • For people upgrading for iMOVIE, this is jaw-dropping. For people having to DOWNGRADE from Final Cut Studio, this is a Nightmare. Steve Jobbs can suck it. At least it might bring the industry back up to a better wage since Apple isn't going to mess with the Pro Market anymore.
  • I can do without everything I have seen so far.
  • Anything Automatic sounds like a nightmare!!! Hopefully it will be able to be disabled.
  • they are DEEED. So glad we invested in AVID last year. So Glad..
  • Holy crap!!! Premiere/After Effects here I come
  • [Dropping Color, STP, etc] would be just consistent with their recent moves. Shake dropped, DVD Studio Pro on deathbed for years. We can't say we couldn't see it coming....


That was from the very first thread, driven by people in the room.

I spoke to people that night and the next morning who had been part of Apple's previews in February who were HORRIFIED by what they saw...but reserved judgement until they saw the shipping product...and were even MORE horrified.

The explosion didn't happen until people started using it. But the fuse was lit for some people as early as February. This is all easy enough to find online from some of those folks.

Not that the largest response to the original presentation wasn't positive. It was, no question. But the facts are that many people in that room weren't convinced.

The fact is also that many of the people cheering in that room stopped cheering when they saw the product.

You can look it up.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 6:21:29 pm

[Tim Wilson] "Not that the largest response to the original presentation wasn't positive. It was, no question. But the facts are that many people in that room weren't convinced.

The fact is also that many of the people cheering in that room stopped cheering when they saw the product. "


Exactly Tim! And, the key thing to remember about the sneak in Las Vegas is that Apple left out some rather vital information; had they revealed the fact that they were going to EOL FCS3 on the very day of their release of FCPX, wouldn't that have changed the tone of even the most rabidly excited in attendance?

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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David Lawrence
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 6:57:24 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "had they revealed the fact that they were going to EOL FCS3 on the very day of their release of FCPX, wouldn't that have changed the tone of even the most rabidly excited in attendance?"

I'm pretty sure if Peter Steinauer revealed the fact that FCPX would import iMovie projects but not FCP legacy projects, he would have been booed offstage by that crowd.

_______________________
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David Roth Weiss
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 7:05:25 pm

[David Lawrence] "I'm pretty sure if Peter Steinauer revealed the fact that FCPX would import iMovie projects but not FCP legacy projects, he would have been booed offstage by that crowd."

I think violence may have ensued.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Bill Davis
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 6:53:59 pm

OK Tim,

I'll stand corrected.

It's doomed.

Only those who didn't have a clue missed that the FCP-X release was the end of FCP as a workable editing tool for human beings. ; )

But you know, I still have that pesky feeling that this is going to be just like DV-25, Digital audio, DSLR's, H4n's and SURELY FCP 1.0 where the "it's just toy stuff" evolved UP into daily working tools used by people making a lot of money in video production.

It's gonna take a few years, but I'm still betting that big and monolithic is going to eventually fall to smaller and more agile.

Happened with music playback, telephones, and computers - and it's GOING to happen with video production at all but the highest end. It's inevitable.

And I think the NAB folks cheering at the release understood that completely.

And if the ADOBE clan (who, BTW were the ones pre-empted at the eleventh hour that night) ended up a bit pissed and that gave them any extra impetus look gleefully on any narrative that FCP-X is deeply flawed OVERALL rather than in a very narrow range at the top end of the user base - well, it's a competitive world - and that's how business has always been played at a certain level.

FWIW.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Clint Wardlow
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 8:59:09 pm

[Bill Davis] "It's gonna take a few years, but I'm still betting that big and monolithic is going to eventually fall to smaller and more agile.

Happened with music playback, telephones, and computers - and it's GOING to happen with video production at all but the highest end. It's inevitable."


While this may be true to a certain extent, the "small and agile" then transforms into the "big and monolithic."

In all these transformative movements, the window for the little guy to make real money is brief and it is large corporate entities that really benefit.

A prime example would be Jeremy's list of top youtube earners. Not one of them makes a fraction of what Leonardo DiCaprio gets for a movie appearance or Hugh Laurie gets for a season of House or Lady Gaga gets in her record contract.

Whatever the outcome of FCPX, I think history has proven that the "big and monolithic" reap the windfall. The little guy may be able to cut himself a very small piece of the pie (or transform himself into one of the big and monolithic if his timing is right) and maybe FCPX can aid that process. But to think that is going to change because of any innovations is a tad starry-eyed IMHO.


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Michael Gissing
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 9:57:16 pm

Why so black & white Bill? I admire your enthusiasm for what FCPX may become, but we are currently debating where Apple has left many of us and how to move past a poor strategic release and a company attitude that doesn't deserve to be rewarded.

When an innovative company stuffs up, no reason not to call it. If, when and how they fix the mess then many of us might support this app. In your comparison to DSLRs and Zoom recorders however you maybe are not taking into account that DSLRs and small digital audio recorders came into a market place with very little comparative products based on quality versus price versus features. DSLRs are short on features that need third party help but price versus quality is the appeal. I see nothing in FCPX that has two out of three going for it compared to rivals. Price seems the main advantage which is not relevant to working professionals, when all editing software is relatively cheap.

FCPX landed at a time when Apple needed to catch up to two strong offerings from traditional rivals. In that market, dropping in an unfinished paradigm shift was a mistake.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 10:18:30 pm

[Michael Gissing] " however you maybe are not taking into account that DSLRs and small digital audio recorders came into a market place with very little comparative products based on quality versus price versus features"

A big difference, too, is that Zoom, Canon and Nikon never promoted these as professional video products for film and TV. Canon specifically developed the 5D video features in reponse to requests by the AP and other photojournalists to have one camera that could do both stills and video for the web. Inventive folks like Vincent Laforet, Philip Bloom, Stu Maschqitz and others took the concept much further.

The key ingredient is that Canon was RESPONDING to customers' feature requests. This the single most glaring missing ingredient in Apple's approach.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 21, 2011 at 4:07:21 am

[Oliver Peters] "A big difference, too, is that Zoom, Canon and Nikon never promoted these as professional video products for film and TV."

I love you man, but I call bullsh*t. (Or B*llocks)

What was this shot(s) heard around the world supposed to be?: http://www.learn.usa.canon.com/galleries/galleries/sample_videos/reverie.sh...

Read this whole thing: http://www.slashgear.com/canon-5d-mark-ii-video-capture-is-comparable-to-50...

Seems to be pretty much a promotional effort to me. I haven't seen an AP story like that anywhere. Ever!


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 21, 2011 at 4:16:07 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Seems to be pretty much a promotional effort to me. I haven't seen an AP story like that anywhere. Ever"

This is PR after the camera was out and after Laforet did Reverie. Remember he was first and foremost a photojournalist at that time. The AP story has been pretty well mentioned all along and has been stated publicly a number of times by Canon officials. Once Reverie was out, the situation changed, because everyone had a clear idea of the possibilities.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 21, 2011 at 4:47:01 am

I understand that Canon was listening to the dwindling photojournalism segment. Good on them, they kept trying to sell still cameras and subsequent lenses in an increasingly motionful world. I guess that worked.

[Oliver Peters] "This is PR after the camera was out and after Laforet did Reverie."

So they only lent it to him for 72 hours to take some pictures? Come on....

Oh wait, crap. Sorry, here's what you said:

[Oliver Peters] "This is PR after the camera was out and after Laforet did Reverie. Remember he was first and foremost a photojournalist at that time. The AP story has been pretty well mentioned all along and has been stated publicly a number of times by Canon officials. Once Reverie was out, the situation changed, because everyone had a clear idea of the possibilities."


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 21, 2011 at 4:55:16 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "So they only lent it to him for 72 hours to take some pictures? Come on...."

What's your point? And did you watch the video I just linked? I think it explains it pretty clearly. Also the events as discussed - the design for AP and then Laforet testing out a beta version of the camera - were also personally reiterated to me by both Laforet and Maschwitz in interviews. So I take them at their word.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 21, 2011 at 5:13:08 am

[Oliver Peters] "[Jeremy Garchow] "So they only lent it to him for 72 hours to take some pictures? Come on...."

What's your point? And did you watch the video I just linked? I think it explains it pretty clearly. Also the events as discussed - the design for AP and then Laforet testing out a beta version of the camera - were also personally reiterated to me by both Laforet and Maschwitz in interviews. So I take them at their word.

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com
"


Yeah, within 10 seconds they were talking about making films. I do not disbelieve anything here. Im not discounting laforet and maschwitz or their accomplishments.

This video even further describes what the naysayers have been saying about FCPX. "Mainstream filmmaking".


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David Lawrence
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 21, 2011 at 4:16:30 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "[Oliver Peters] "A big difference, too, is that Zoom, Canon and Nikon never promoted these as professional video products for film and TV."

I love you man, but I call bullsh*t. (Or B*llocks)"


I love you man, but I call selective quoting :P

[Oliver Peters] "A big difference, too, is that Zoom, Canon and Nikon never promoted these as professional video products for film and TV. Canon specifically developed the 5D video features in reponse to requests by the AP and other photojournalists to have one camera that could do both stills and video for the web. Inventive folks like Vincent Laforet, Philip Bloom, Stu Maschqitz and others took the concept much further."

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
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Oliver Peters
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 21, 2011 at 4:36:19 am

Regarding Canon and the AP, how about this?

http://photocinenews.com/2009/12/07/more-info-on-canon-5d-mk2-firmware/

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 21, 2011 at 4:57:35 am

[Oliver Peters] "Regarding Canon and the AP, how about this?

http://photocinenews.com/2009/12/07/more-info-on-canon-5d-mk2-firmware/

Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com
"


I understand where it came from. Really, I do. This doesn't make it any less difficult to work with or use on a shoot and work around its obvious limitations. Hopefully it gets better in the next release!


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 21, 2011 at 4:40:25 am

[David Lawrence] "[Jeremy Garchow] "[Oliver Peters] "A big difference, too, is that Zoom, Canon and Nikon never promoted these as professional video products for film and TV."

I love you man, but I call bullsh*t. (Or B*llocks)"

I love you man, but I call selective quoting :P

[Oliver Peters] "A big difference, too, is that Zoom, Canon and Nikon never promoted these as professional video products for film and TV. Canon specifically developed the 5D video features in reponse to requests by the AP and other photojournalists to have one camera that could do both stills and video for the web. Inventive folks like Vincent Laforet, Philip Bloom, Stu Maschqitz and others took the concept much further.""


I love you man, but I call bullsh*t. (Or B*llocks)

What was this shot(s) heard around the world supposed to be?: http://www.learn.usa.canon.com/galleries/galleries/sample_videos/reverie.sh.....

Read this whole thing: http://www.slashgear.com/canon-5d-mark-ii-video-capture-is-comparable-to-50.....

Seems to be pretty much a promotional effort to me. I haven't seen an AP story like that anywhere. Ever!


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David Cherniack
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 11:39:59 pm

[Bill Davis] "And if the ADOBE clan (who, BTW were the ones pre-empted at the eleventh hour that night) ended up a bit pissed and that gave them any extra impetus look gleefully on any narrative that FCP-X is deeply flawed OVERALL rather than in a very narrow range at the top end of the user base - well, it's a competitive world - and that's how business has always been played at a certain level."

Ahh...Bill...I do believe it was Avid, not Adobe that Apple pushed out of the Las Vegas meet. I also don't think that Avid, or for that matter Adobe, is gleeful that Apple may have laid a turd with the release of X. I think, as you say, they're both just happy to see their bottom line increase.

David
AllinOneFilms.com


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Dennis Radeke
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 21, 2011 at 10:57:06 am

Truth be told, we both had slots that night I believe, but Avid did indeed have the bigger exposure for that night...

Dennis - Adobe guy


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David Cherniack
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 21, 2011 at 2:53:49 pm

[Dennis Radeke] "Truth be told, we both had slots that night I believe, but Avid did indeed have the bigger exposure for that night."

And most of the entire industry thought it was just Avid that got elbowed out of the way. Kudos to Adobe for not whining and playing the sympathy card. :)

David
AllinOneFilms.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 21, 2011 at 3:28:22 pm

[David Cherniack] "Kudos to Adobe for not whining and playing the sympathy card. :)"

Avid had booked a special guest (Kevin Smith) for the SuperMeet, which was part of the draw for that year in the absence of Apple. They also put up sponsorship money. Changing the agenda sent them scrambling for another venue to present Smith. So it was a lot more than simply bumping a staff presenter for a 10-20 minute portion of the night.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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David Cherniack
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 21, 2011 at 3:50:57 pm

Yeah, I didn't mean my 'whining' comment to be taken as disparaging of Avid. I know they were badly hosed by Apple and the User Meet people who perhaps should have been less willing to do Apple's bidding.

David
AllinOneFilms.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 21, 2011 at 4:04:59 pm

[David Cherniack] "the User Meet people who perhaps should have been less willing to do Apple's bidding."

In fairness, I think they were put between a rock and a hard place.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 22, 2011 at 10:05:07 pm

Honestly...

The "Supermeet" rebranding was barely on anyone's radar at that point in time. Prior to that it was the LAFCPUG Supermeet - in which the FCP was Final Cut Pro. So that anyone would think that a hugely anticipated FCP re-write launch from Apple wasn't what the crowd was primarily interested is seeing is again, revisionist. Mike and Dan were both understandably stressed since they knew what Apple's last minute decisions to unveil FCP-X would mean bumping their other sponsors, but honestly, from a purely "satisfy your core audience" perspective, their hands were completely tied. Nobody among us would have seriously entertained making a different call. I'm totally confident in saying that.

At the NAB Events prior (and I helped Horton with virtually ALL of them from the very first) Apple presented right alongside demos from the other "A"s - notably the Cow's very own Tim Wilson, who I have to say was at the very APEX of the talent pool in skilled "users group" presenters.

(For those reading who've never had much users group experience, I had to say that NAB booth work is one thing - dealing as it does with with large and varied crowds. But the large User Group presentation is unique in that you're dealing with a group that typically has a their "bullshit detectors" set to stun. In this environment I've never seen anyone better than Tim. He did his amazing work after what must have been countless hours on his feet in the show floor booth doing demos all day - and If there's an IRON MAN award for great demo guys - Tim Wilson should absolutely be in that hall of fame.)

My perspective anyway.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Tim Wilson
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 22, 2011 at 11:13:53 pm

[Bill Davis] "notably the Cow's very own Tim Wilson, who I have to say was at the very APEX of the talent pool in skilled "users group" presenters. "

Thanks Bill, I really appreciate it. I took the work with deadly seriousness, performed it with absolute joy...and it nearly killed me. :-) On my feet nearly non-stop from 7 AM to 11 PM was common.

(I was far from alone in that, btw. If you're playing for keeps, trade shows are brutal. I'll observe that the softest carpet I ever felt at NAB was the year I spent working the Apple booth.)

I did a major presentation at the third-ever LAFCPUG meeting, when I was at Boris FX. The last time I asked Michael, I still hold the record for most appearances by a non-Californian. I was also the main presenter at the FIRST meeting of BOSFCPUG, and actually helped start the New York FCP group....which morphed enough times that a large-ish number of people could make the same claim....but for me it's actually true. LOL

I can honestly say that, during the time I worked at Boris, I'm pretty sure I presented at every single FCPUG in the country, many more than once.

My FCP experience actually went back to the days when I had a disk of Macromedia Final Cut that ran on WINDOWS. (You can see a picture of it in my COW profile.)

Hey, among the reasons they hired me at Avid was my FCP expertise. My knowledge of Avid was superficial at best. Oliver Peters had to remind me how to set up my Boris demos on Symphony EVERY TIME I presented at his Avid user group in Orlando. (He and I had dinner in Vegas the Sunday night before the show started for a couple of years running, and I am happy seeing him around here these days.)

Needless to say, I developed major Avid chops, and came to genuinely love Media Composer...without changing my feelings for FCP, or the Media 100 I built my own long-running video production company around, or Premiere, where I started.

So when I do my yapping in this forum, it's not as a full-time COW person, but as someone who spent 15 years living this stuff every hour of the day, and in way too many nightmares while I slept. I still think of myself as a video editor....even if I haven't been for quite a long time.

Anyway, sorry for the Saturday afternoon rambling. Those years as a demo monkey really took their toll on me, and it means a lot to hear from someone who felt I was sticking the landing.

Answering the rhetorical question at the top of the thread -- dude, I don't think any of anything we live through in this business is worth it...and I wouldn't miss it for the world.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 7:01:19 pm

[Tim Wilson] "The idea that there was "immediate strong negative reaction" to the FCPX launch from the people in the room is revisionist history -- THAT's revisionist history.
"


Heartily seconded! In my circle the reaction was very immediately fearful over what was happening. I wasn't on the floor, but communications with people who either were or watched video of the event, prompted me to write an email to Steve Jobs less than a week after the event warning "There is a great deal of fear in the professional Final Cut Pro community, after last weeks demo, that they have been abandoned. In certain circles, it is bordering on panic. I'm certain that that is not what the demo meant to engender, but, unfortunately, it has."

I think this discrepancy of experience is probably explained by the simple fact that dismay and "that sinking feeling in the pit of your stomach" have no loud verbal analogs. As you are asking yourself "WTF?," you are pretty much speechless. You are in no way ready to commit to a boo, so at the time, you are pretty silent on the matter.


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Jim Giberti
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 8:38:39 pm

[Chris Harlan] "I think this discrepancy of experience is probably explained by the simple fact that dismay and "that sinking feeling in the pit of your stomach" have no loud verbal analogs. As you are asking yourself "WTF?," you are pretty much speechless. You are in no way ready to commit to a boo, so at the time, you are pretty silent on the matter."

It's impossible to judge people's reactions to group events like this. People, by their nature, get caught up in the energy of the presentation and atmosphere and, as you say Chris, aren't likely to reflect their concern or confusion by countering with boos. A good example is political conventions (which is kind of how this was handled). Everyone on the floor is screaming and waving whatever gets said on stage but the analysts and pundits watching in the studios focus on the content of the speech after the fact.

That's what happened here. Once the balloons dropped and all the excitement abated, the serious political questions started getting asked and concerns got raised and discussed. It wouldn't have taken a stroke of genius to have an Apple counterpart to Dennis R from Adobe sign on to the Cow and answer the questions and calm the fears of the professional community. From here it would have spread throughout the community - really simple way to back channel your info...if you've got the inclination.

That's what I meant by managing change as opposed to just creating it. They acted as if those concerns weren't valid or weren't important to them for far too long.

That was the essence of David's question - was it worth the mess it's created for so many people?
Clearly they could have and should have done much better with this release whether you like the program or not.


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krisztian majdik
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 8:37:49 pm

I switched to Avid MC 5.5 right as the news came out about FCPX and now I slap myself in the head why I didn't switch earlier. It's an amazing piece of software, precise, well thought out and just a joy to work with. And I am saying this as a long time FCP fanatic that vehemently defended apples software against AVID and premiere.


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Tom Klein
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 20, 2011 at 10:30:31 pm

I'm glad apple let out a "Download 30day trial" of FCPX, it convinced me that FCPX is not that good.
I'm switching platforms later, but will stay with FCP7 for as long as the apple OS allows me, No doubt apple will work on that issue.

Cheers
Tom.

olinevideo.com.au


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Rafael Amador
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 21, 2011 at 11:10:48 am

[Tim Wilson] "There was unquestionably positive reaction, but quite a bit that was not."
I kept my expectations against most negative reactions.
I installed FCPX the day of the release; half hour later I felt like a fool.
rafael

[Tom Klein] "I'm glad apple let out a "Download 30day trial" of FCPX, it convinced me that FCPX is not that good."
That was later.
When i tried the first day of the release, I found a kind of alien taken the place of FCP and FCS disappeared.
I felt like twisting some necks in Cupertino.


About DSLRs and FCPX: no so long ago you had FCP and a DV camera with a tripod and you could start your own business.
Now you have a FCPX a DSLR and a tripod and you are nowhere.
Rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Steve Connor
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 21, 2011 at 11:20:35 am

[Rafael Amador] "Now you have a FCPX a DSLR and a tripod and you are nowhere"

Why?

"My Name is Steve and I'm an FCPX user"


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Bill Davis
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 23, 2011 at 3:33:30 pm

Because, Steve the most fundamental of all the rules have now OBVIOUSLY changed.

That idea that it's not the equipment, but the talent of the editor?

Scratch that.

We were all wrong.

Turns out the sooner you can get a better piano IS the key to becoming a better piano player. Who knew!

Simple, huh?


(sorry, couldn't resist a tiny bit of gratuitous public snark, it's a flaw in my character;)

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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David Battistella
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 21, 2011 at 4:01:16 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "The "big" question I'd like to pose to all FCPX debaters at this point in time is this, is FCPX really worth all the "high drama" that Apple set in motion throughout the industry since it took over the big SuperMeet at NAB in April? "

Short term paoin. Long term gain.

FCP X had to happen sooner or later and it was not going to be pretty. IE OSX 9 OSX. In the long term I think it is a better piece of modern software built to work with the new OS and hardware.

Divorce is never easy.


David

______________________________
The shortest answer is doing.
Lord Herbert
http://vimeo.com/battistella



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Christopher Beeger
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 21, 2011 at 11:18:34 pm

Compering DSLR to FCPX doesn't work at all. One is production tool the other post-production tool. In production it's what in front and who's behind the lens that burns up the budget. Gear is nothing. Heck, Panavision will give "my budget is…" deals on camera packages. Film is cheap if one keeps ratios down to less then 10 to 1. Nowdays labs will physically kiss your arse to get the business. Want Red or Genesis, have it for free if you rent that already discounted lens package.

There is official French entry in feature drama category for upcoming Academy Awards that was all shot on 5D ( 100% ). Was it cut on Imovie. Don't think so.

Post is a evolutionary rather then revolutionary business. By revolutionary I mean like reinvent the mouse so you can use it with your nose. Just does not work. The only good thing that happened with release of FCPX is that Avid and Adobe will most likely work a lot harder to compete for your business. I just hope they don't screw it up.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Oct 22, 2011 at 2:02:35 pm

[Christopher Beeger] "Compering DSLR to FCPX doesn't work at all. One is production tool the other post-production tool. In production it's what in front and who's behind the lens that burns up the budget. Gear is nothing. Heck, Panavision will give "my budget is…" deals on camera packages. Film is cheap if one keeps ratios down to less then 10 to 1. Nowdays labs will physically kiss your arse to get the business. Want Red or Genesis, have it for free if you rent that already discounted lens package."

Hi Christopher, I appreciate your response. Since I brought it up, I will say it's an analogy.

DSLRs : Full featured cameras :: FCPX : Full featured NLE

In my tiny corner of the world, gear is certainly not nothing. There are colleagues of mine where gear is 60% of their income. They very companies you have mentioned make their entire living off of gear. There's no question that people are more expensive, but gear is not free, although it is much cheaper than it used to be, and clients know this and devalue everything as a result. Those lenses you mention, are still very expensive.

What was the French movie edited on? Probably not iMovie, but you don't think that one day in the near future one of those movies won't be edited on FCPX? FCPX isn't iMovie. Really, it's not.

[Christopher Beeger] "Post is a evolutionary rather then revolutionary business. By revolutionary I mean like reinvent the mouse so you can use it with your nose. Just does not work. The only good thing that happened with release of FCPX is that Avid and Adobe will most likely work a lot harder to compete for your business. I just hope they don't screw it up."

Really? So 3D modeling, digital set extension, VFX of all kinds is an evolution? Nothing you have seen over the past 10 years is a revolution or took new and modern tools to get it done?

Post, to me, is not about using a mouse. It's about how you interact with the footage. FCPX changes what has been a common language in NLEs for decades now. I'm ok with that. DSLRs have changed the industry as well. In my mind, from a cursory analogy, they are more similar than you discount them to be.


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Jon Miles
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Dec 3, 2011 at 2:32:29 pm

All the drama was a gift to Avid. A gift I might add that Avid has yet to capitalize on. My meetings with Avid reps - have been laced with - "well we've got a gajillion dollars in the bank so...." - so they may not be motivated to really grab this opportunity. They don't see any money in the individual user. (Adobe, here's your cue...)

I think what is lost on Apple is that the Source/Record Timeline model was something that was refined over a decade of preceding products. From EMC to Ediflex to Lightworks.

Revolutions happen in areas of technology and culture that need them. Apple has tried to revolutionize something that hasn't finished it's evolution to begin with.

On my show we have experimented with Compressor 64bit workflows - but as we are a XSAN based, multi-cam show - iMovie 10 is not something we'll be integrating any time soon.

Jon Miles
Producer / Post Supervisor
Real Housewives of New Jersey
Sirens Media


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Dec 3, 2011 at 3:59:12 pm

"My meetings with Avid reps - have been laced with - "well we've got a gajillion dollars in the bank so...." - so they may not be motivated to really grab this opportunity. They don't see any money in the individual user. (Adobe, here's your cue...)
"

I'm not sure where that statement came from, but I certainly have heard NO such statement or sentiment from any Avid folks I've spoken with. That includes all the way up to the top with Gary and Kirk.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Rick Dupea
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Dec 3, 2011 at 10:24:37 pm

My feelings on this aren't so much about what is and isn't in FCPX yet. (I won't buy it until it's ready for pro work.) The greatest tragedy is what we missed and was left undone in all the effort to release a Less-Than-FCP7 product.

Here's what I REALLY wanted, and how Apple should have spent all that R&D time:

1. 64 bit speed, 100% new code. (Well, they did get this one right.)

2. Backward compatibility. How can you even leave that out??

3. Integrated timeline with modes, so you could switch from a Final Cut view of your tracks to a Motion view of your tracks to a Soundtrack or Logic view of your tracks to a Color view of your tracks. One unified timeline, with modes to call up different tool sets to operate on the media. You have to admit, THAT would be an awesome upgrade to FCP. One Track To Rule Them All And In The Edit Bay Bind Them. THIS is the FCPX that should have been.

4. 3D (or 2.5D) timeline rendering environment with lighting and camera moves. Just take the functionality of After Effects' 3D look (or Motion's, more to the point) and let us switch on the 3D camera view when we want to finish compositing in 3D space. (I suppose this is generally what adding a Motion mode to the timeline would do.)

5. Real time playback and intermixing of RED and Canon DSLR footage with other codecs.

6. A real, advanced, scriptable titler.

7. Keep ALL the features of the existing FCP7 active: all the key commands, buttons, menu items, I/O, bins -- everything about our existing workflows that we have developed over a decade for efficient work.

8. Make any new 'prosumer' toys (magnetic timeline crap, etc.) optional. Even ship it turned on, but give us a 'Time to put on your big boy undies' button to turn it off and restore our power tools. You can add an 'Underoos' button to turn on the noob mode that Apple seems to care so much for...


You have to admit - that is an application you would spend way more that $299 for, even for just an upgrade. And we missed it all, because Apple wants to dumb down FCPX for skateboarders and Youtubers. The tragedy is that they didn't need to cripple th epro level features to draw them in.

I also find it hard to believe that Apple rushed the release of FPX to compete with Avid, when the lack of pro features in FCPX is the very thing creating the entire firestorm over switching away from FCP. If their goal was to compete in the big leagues, they would never have foisted off a half-baked collection of glitzy toys and diminished features as a purported upgrade. Steve wanted to do the software equivalent of 'selling sugar water to kids': sell millions of fizzy little apps.



I hereby announce my candidacy for head of user interface design for FCPX v2. Please forward this post and my contact info to Apple. Step 1, fire the lead designer of FCPX. And I intend to use REAL FIRE.

Rick Dupea
Cre8tv Media Group
Full time broadcast and corporate editor since 1985.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Dec 4, 2011 at 12:04:36 am

[Rick Dupea] "You have to admit - that is an application you would spend way more that $299 for, even for just an upgrade"

And it's one that Apple never, ever would design. Did you miss the part about Apple designing for what they think is right, not what users say they want?

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Rick Dupea
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Dec 4, 2011 at 12:46:39 am

I didn't miss it, I just disagree with it as a strategy. The fame of FCP made Macs cool to Hollywood and thus the world (remember saving the world in Independence Day with a tuxedo powerbook?) A flagship software product sells your most powerful systems, powering R&D for lesser items, and gives you cultural cache.

Apple may be losing the pro business in favor of iphones and imovies. If that is the case, someone will eventually make a better editor. It's just a shame, because they could have been so good. Like I said: selling sugar water to kids. Coke makes lots of money doing that. I thought Steve had higher goals.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Dec 4, 2011 at 2:11:57 am

[Rick Dupea] "I didn't miss it, I just disagree with it as a strategy."

Sure, most of us do.

[Rick Dupea] "The fame of FCP made Macs cool to Hollywood"

Huh? Macs were in use in Hollywood long, long before FCP.

[Rick Dupea] "Apple may be losing the pro business in favor of iphones and imovies."

Apple isn't losing it. They want to work within realistic margins. Those margins simply aren't there in Mac Pros, Xserves, etc. for the kind of company Apple is today. That's being said, much of that isn't needed anymore. Apple is a hardware company, but it's never been a "heavy iron" type of company.

[Rick Dupea] " I thought Steve had higher goals."

The goals were always simplicity and intuitiveness. We may not agree, but the direction Apple has been taking is totally consistent with that. You seem to be asking for a Ferrari of an edit system. That was never the kind of product Apple has ever in its history produced.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Rick Dupea
Re: Is FCPX really worth it?
on Dec 4, 2011 at 4:10:30 am

[Oliver Peters] "You seem to be asking for a Ferrari of an edit system. That was never the kind of product Apple has ever in its history produced."

Well, I never expected them to create a Flame system, even after they bought Shake. However, my big beef is that they released as a major upgrade a software which was incompatible with its previous namesake, and had a reduced feature set. If they had taken out Pro from the name, or called it iMovie Pro and continued FCP as its own line, I'd feel different(ly).

I've edited on 'Ferrari' systems for 25 years. FCP was a better editing experience than most of them (other than render time). They were better than Ferrari for daily driving! And their hardware has always been the Ferrari of computers. Their whole product niche has been built on build quality and user experience.

The big problem with FCPX is that they unnecessarily killed a lot of the pro feature set, while simultaneously rushing to release the software to prevent Premiere and Avid from moving into their pro business. That made no sense, because a pro software missing major pro features drives away pro customers, as has been sen by the mass rejection of FCPX by professional editors like me. (Some like a few features, no one has said it is a business-level replacement for FCP7 yet.)

All I expected of Apple was to make Final Cut PRO X better than FCP7. Better for Pros. They really haven't done that yet. If they had, we wouldn't still be having these discussions on the forums.


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