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For those of you still on the fence - check this out

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Darren Kelly
For those of you still on the fence - check this out
on Oct 18, 2011 at 2:49:48 am

http://tv.adobe.com/watch/max-2011-sneak-peeks/max-2011-sneak-peek-rubbadub...

The link will take you to some Adobe sneak peaks of features in future version of PhotoSHop, Premiere and After Effects.

These are very useful additions to an already powerful suite.

Apple is still trying to add basic features.

It's easy to choose.

DBK


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Bill Davis
Re: For those of you still on the fence - check this out
on Oct 18, 2011 at 3:31:30 am

Interesting.

A list of features that may or may not make it into some potential future version of the software?

Makes me wonder if they recently hired the marketing team from RED. ; )

I have no quarrel with Adobe's marketing team being super aggressive with stuff like this, but I'm also kinda surprised they don't seem to feel that the current product is so strong that this kind of aggressive "pre-announcing" of distant potentials is needed.

In the end, people will cut on what they find comfortable.

The "big suite" team will split between Adobe and AVID. The Vegas people are loyal to a fault, so they won't go anywhere. And FCP-X will get everyone who wants something different from what we've all had for the past 12 years.

It'll be interesting to see how it all works out.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Dominic Deacon
Re: For those of you still on the fence - check this out
on Oct 18, 2011 at 4:32:27 am

[Bill Davis] "A list of features that may or may not make it into some potential future version of the software?"

Vague isn't it? That said I'd pay damn good money for that rub-a-dub feature right now. Is there anything similar available now?


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Jerry Alto
Re: For those of you still on the fence - check this out
on Oct 18, 2011 at 4:35:40 am

[Bill Davis] I'm also kinda surprised they don't seem to feel that the current product is so strong that this kind of aggressive "pre-announcing" of distant potentials is needed.

Bill- How did you feel about Apple's intro of FCPX at NAB.

'STAAAAAAAAAY TUUUUUNNNNNNEEEDDDDD!

Apple was trying to launch a new version of a product that totally disregards many the basic needs of their MOST LOYAL CUSTOMERS.

What a DISASTER!

Jerry

MacPro 2.93 Quad
FCP7
Sony Z-1
GV-HD700


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Dennis Radeke
Re: For those of you still on the fence - check this out
on Oct 18, 2011 at 11:32:00 am

I have to agree with Bill on this one (and I am an Adobe employee) that going with Adobe on an unannounced feature doesn't make a whole lot of sense. ;-)

That said, I do think it underscores what Adobe is about and how we're different: we WANT to COMMUNICATE with our users. This isn't Adobe's marketing team being super aggressive, this is Adobe being super open to inform you and allow you to make decisions that benefit you. (Get the emphasis on 'you'?)

Bill - once we feel the product is so strong, we won't make any new versions. ;-)

As for RED, they were 'marketing' for Apple if you recall but we've worked with them in the same open fashion as we do with our customers and RED saw the superior RED workflow with us and have gotten behind it because it is good for their customers too.

Dominic - I'm with you, it is a very cool feature and I hope it makes it into a version soon but I don't honestly know. Fingers crossed!

Dennis - Adobe guy


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Bill Davis
Re: For those of you still on the fence - check this out
on Oct 18, 2011 at 2:01:04 pm

Dennis,

I also applaud "openness" as a general way of doing business. And I admire Adobe for clearly putting a premium on this kind of R&D effort. It will clearly move the high dollar "feature film" oriented end of the industry forward.

And for those who aspire to work in that space, a move to Adobe might be a very smart move.

I am cautious, however, that that's going to be the bulk of the "day to day" editing done over the next few decades. A few hundred feature films make a whole lot of money, but for every one of them, there are likely tens of thousands of "everyday" business videos created to drive financial results. I suspect that FCP-X is targeting this larger, more diverse group of productions with X.

So good luck with the part of the industry that regularly does ADR and has the time to do 3D wireframe analysis of scenes - if I worked in that space, Premier might well be my next editing software. But I'm just a lowly "day to day" editor that works largely in corporate messaging. So different strokes.

BTW, since you're inside Adobe, if anyone from marketing ever asks for consumer feedback, please let them know that I actually considered the "switch" back in the first weeks of the FCP-X launch - but after quite some time on the Adobe web site I got put off by the complexity of the "bundling" options. The stand alones seemed high priced compared to the bundles but the array of bundles seemed way too complex for me to make an easy decision as to what would best fit my needs. (I couldn't rapidly figure out which one represented the most "I need that" combined with the fewest "I don't need that" options and it made me spend a lot of time trying to figure out the nature of the products I was unfamiliar with so that I could even TELL if I wanted it or not. . I absolutely respect the business need to drive incremental sales - but as that moved toward customer confusion, it became a barrier - and the decision "window" closed for me.

For what it's worth.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Dennis Radeke
Re: For those of you still on the fence - check this out
on Oct 18, 2011 at 3:12:38 pm

Hey Bill,

Thanks for the response - I appreciate it!

At the basic level, we believe that building the right tool has broad appeal and that focusing on a mix of everyday and high-end features is the right approach for us. Up until recently, you would have said the everyday editor was a Premiere Pro editor as that has been our core for many years. We want to continue to serve them even as we focus on making the tool more acceptable in the high-end. A good feature isn't necessarily a high-end feature - it's one that everyone uses. That defines our direction.

Regarding the switcher campaign. Totally accept your input as valid. Our focus is trying to include a right value for lots of different customers. Again it's customer centric. Old Adobe customers, new ones, competitive switchers, etc. As a result, we do have a lot of options and if that's a turnoff, I can't fault you.

Cheers,
Dennis


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David Roth Weiss
Re: For those of you still on the fence - check this out
on Oct 18, 2011 at 11:31:19 pm

Dennis,

I gotta say, whoever named Rubadub should get the best name award for an app at Adobe if there is one.

Honestly, I just love the name Rubadub. On the basis of the name alone you guys absolutely need to include it your suite. That fact that it actually seems to work well really clinches it...

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Dennis Radeke
Re: For those of you still on the fence - check this out
on Oct 19, 2011 at 11:15:36 am

[David Roth Weiss] "I gotta say, whoever named Rubadub should get the best name award for an app at Adobe if there is one."

Hey David - I totally agree! It is a great name!


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Herb Sevush
Re: For those of you still on the fence - check this out
on Oct 18, 2011 at 4:26:23 pm

[Bill Davis] "I also applaud "openness" as a general way of doing business. And I admire Adobe for clearly putting a premium on this kind of R&D effort. It will clearly move the high dollar "feature film" oriented end of the industry forward."

I don't think the "rub-a-dub" is a high end feature. Imagine you've got a corporate spokesman delivering copy in a MS, it's a great take but in the middle there's a siren that goes off behind a few words. You go back and re-do it in CU, which is never a pretty cut. The second take is OK, but clearly the first is better. You can now take a phrase from the second take and drop it in to fix the phrase. Doing this manually is a PITA, now it's automatic. It's the audio equivalent of X's ability to match color from one clip to the next.

As for the Photoshop fix blur feature, if they can do it in Photoshop they will be able to do it with video. The 2 things I most often get asked to do by clients that I can't do is

1) make this shot less blurry and
2) get rid of the echo in the sound.

The possibility that I will be able to do #1 is fantastic, and it is definitely not a "high end" feature.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Bill Davis
Re: For those of you still on the fence - check this out
on Oct 18, 2011 at 7:31:47 pm

[Herb Sevush] " As for the Photoshop fix blur feature, if they can do it in Photoshop they will be able to do it with video. The 2 things I most often get asked to do by clients that I can't do is

1) make this shot less blurry and
2) get rid of the echo in the sound. "


In my experience, when they say 1 above they're usually not talking about camera shake, which rubadub addresses, but focus issues, which would be FANTASTIC, if they could fix, but I suspect not. Taking a defocused image and re-focusing is a whole lot different from taking camera shake and removing the ghosts. But we'll see. I wish them well and hope they pull this off.

As to 2 I share your wish completely. In my experience, it's usually horrible mic technique and trying to fix it is akin to taking a can of yellow paint and subsequently attempting to extract the blue and green components. But the laws of physics being what they are, if the Adobe folks can figure out how to fix or even just significantly improve what most people describe as "echo" in field recordings (actually more often, I suspect, poor signal-to-noise ratio from distant micing), I'll be the first to leap to my feet and applaud them.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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David Roth Weiss
Re: For those of you still on the fence - check this out
on Oct 18, 2011 at 7:46:13 pm

[Bill Davis] "In my experience, when they say 1 above they're usually not talking about camera shake, which rubadub addresses"

Better go look at that Adobe video one more time Bill.

Rubadub has nothing to do with camera shake or soft images, it's an audio syncing tool for automated ADR.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Herb Sevush
Re: For those of you still on the fence - check this out
on Oct 18, 2011 at 8:13:48 pm

[Bill Davis] "In my experience, when they say 1 above they're usually not talking about camera shake, which rubadub addresses, but focus issues, which would be FANTASTIC"

Take a look at this. They are talking about "focus" - in Photoshop for now, but I'll bet it won't take long to make it work for video.

http://tv.adobe.com/watch/max-2011-sneak-peeks/max-2011-sneak-peek-image-de...

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Bill Davis
Re: For those of you still on the fence - check this out
on Oct 18, 2011 at 11:15:05 pm

In my quote I was addressing BOTH notes - audio echo and camera shake.

I mis-typed rubadub re one when I intened to apply it to the other.

I watched BOTH videos. And as I noted, I'll be delighted if they can handle one or both with practical solutions

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Shawn Miller
Re: For those of you still on the fence - check this out
on Oct 18, 2011 at 7:07:39 pm

"I am cautious, however, that that's going to be the bulk of the "day to day" editing done over the next few decades. A few hundred feature films make a whole lot of money, but for every one of them, there are likely tens of thousands of "everyday" business videos created to drive financial results. I suspect that FCP-X is targeting this larger, more diverse group of productions with X."

Maybe Dennis can correct me if I'm wrong, but this is where (I believe) a large portion of Premiere Pro users already are. I've been in corporate media production for about 15 years, and for the most part, this is what I've seen in this space; small to medium sized shops (internal and external) using the Production Suite for day to day work... mostly on Windows. Can Apple lure Premiere Pro/After Effects/Photoshop users away with FCPX and Motion? Maybe... but I would be very surprised if they could. I think I've said this before, but an updated 64bit FCP Studio with updated Shake might have been compelling enough to make me SERIOUSLY consider buying a Mac (heck, even just an updated Shake)... FCPX and Motion don't seem to show as much promise to me. Maybe other Adobe CSx.x users can chime in here, but from where I sit, Adobe's respect and commitment to its user base and its integration story seem really hard to match... Apple would have to show me a lot more to even make FCPX an option.

Thanks,

Shawn



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Dennis Radeke
Re: For those of you still on the fence - check this out
on Oct 19, 2011 at 11:20:12 am

Shawn, I think you're spot on. Historically, we've been the bread and butter of people like you and we certainly don't want to stop delivering great tools to you.

From a business perspective, I think Apple sees this as the larger market and perhaps that's some of the motivation for their direction. Of course only Apple knows for sure.

Dennis - Adobe guy


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Mitch Ives
Re: For those of you still on the fence - check this out
on Oct 18, 2011 at 9:32:27 pm

[Bill Davis] "I am cautious, however, that that's going to be the bulk of the "day to day" editing done over the next few decades. A few hundred feature films make a whole lot of money, but for every one of them, there are likely tens of thousands of "everyday" business videos created to drive financial results. I suspect that FCP-X is targeting this larger, more diverse group of productions with X."

Really? Business videos is most of my work and FCPX doesn't meet the needs for that right now. That's been the whole point since it's release on day one. This forum proves that I'm not the only one with that view.

As for Adobe, I'd rather have them tell us where they're going, even if it takes awhile. Kudos on that, since Apple's approach of not telling you anything, other than to tell you the next release will be great, only to bring out something totally different that is woefully lacking didn't seem to work too well for them.

Given the choice, I say talk too much...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.
mitch@insightproductions.com
http://www.insightproductions.com


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Bill Davis
Re: For those of you still on the fence - check this out
on Oct 18, 2011 at 11:22:38 pm

Well, maybe, Mitch.

But that's precisely why I have difficulty warming up to the RED approach.

They talked, and talked, and talked and talked about what was going to happen. Then when it finally did, it was NOTHING like they implied. They delivered a great product for the top of the industry. But every bit of marketing hype I remember was talking about a $10k camera. Not the $50k plus "system" they eventually delivered in fits and spurts.

I've probably just seen too many companies over too many years try to suppress migration or hold the market in suspense while they worked things out - only to have them miss countless deadlines.

That''s not a slam on RED or on ADOBE. Just how I experienced waiting long stretches hoping that a tool I was interested in might become available.

In fairness, Adobe, in particular, does NOT have that kind of history. They've always delivered and supported fine software.

I just still think they're missing the larger trend of where content creation is increasingly going - and that's more in line with where Apple is betting.

But I could certainly be wrong.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Mitch Ives
Re: For those of you still on the fence - check this out
on Oct 18, 2011 at 11:28:40 pm

[Bill Davis] "In fairness, Adobe, in particular, does NOT have that kind of history. They've always delivered and supported fine software.

I just still think they're missing the larger trend of where content creation is increasingly going - and that's more in line with where Apple is betting.

But I could certainly be wrong."


Yes, we are talking about a company with a long history, not a startup like Red.

You could also be right about Apple's direction... but sadly it'll take some years to actually know...

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.
mitch@insightproductions.com
http://www.insightproductions.com


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Darren Kelly
Re: For those of you still on the fence - check this out
on Oct 18, 2011 at 11:32:17 pm

Bill,

Don't worry about Mitch and his condescending ways. He's been doing that stuff for as long as I've known him, which is 1994.

Lots of people put him down, they just look at his work!

DBK


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Bill Davis
Re: For those of you still on the fence - check this out
on Oct 18, 2011 at 1:19:53 pm

Quoting:

Bill- How did you feel about Apple's intro of FCPX at NAB.

'STAAAAAAAAAY TUUUUUNNNNNNEEEDDDDD!

Apple was trying to launch a new version of a product that totally disregards many the basic needs of their MOST LOYAL CUSTOMERS.

What a DISASTER!

Jerry

MacPro 2.93 Quad
FCP7
Sony Z-1
GV-HD700

I understand your feelings. And I'm sympathetic that you feel it was a "disaster" for you.

For me it hasn't been. It's been an extremely interesting and largely exciting exploration of something new and different.

To my thinking, Apple, with FCP-X has introduced something very interesting to the timeline in a way that's unique. Modularity. The "connected clip" essentially provides an alternate to the stacked track in that it collapses the track structure into discrete modules that have their own internal structure - and the "magnetic" nature of the timeline, allows you the option to keep those modules contiguous should that meet your needs. (You can obviously make them discontinuous via "gap clips" but that's your option, not the fixed default choice.)

I find that fascinating. It's expanded my thinking about what the structure of an editing display might be.

At the core, there's plenty of room in the marketplace for both these approaches - and hopefully many more!


"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Darren Kelly
Re: For those of you still on the fence - check this out
on Oct 18, 2011 at 2:02:49 pm

I guess what I was trying to say is, Adobe has held similar SNEAKPEAKS in the past, and the stuff usually ends up in their software.

Apple is still trying to make a product that functions, while Adobe is adding features that Apple can only dream about.

DBK


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Bill Davis
Re: For those of you still on the fence - check this out
on Oct 18, 2011 at 3:31:00 pm

Darren,

Sorry, but you are absolutely incorrect with your assertion that FCP-X represents something that "Apple is still trying to make function."

It's a perfectly well-functioning editing platform right now.

I've delivered two projects out of it in the past 72 hours. One "sizzle video" for a national corporate conference - and a donor education initiative for a SoCal regional blood bank.

I've found it agile, creative, useful, and while not flawless, it's code is amazingly "self correcting" in that while I crashed it a few times it consistently re-opened rapidly and near flawlessly without a single dropped edit decision. (In fairness, I say "near flawlessly, because occasionally I'd find an odd type treatment re-set to a default style, but nothing that took more than a minute to correct)

It clearly is not the perfect tool for every editor. But to imply that it doesn't function shows that you're either reading about it too much and using it too little, or there's something wrong with your configuration or machine capabilities.

Period.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Darren Kelly
Re: For those of you still on the fence - check this out
on Oct 18, 2011 at 5:19:05 pm

Bill,

The debate has been long and hard fought. In my opinion, and that of others, Apple dropped the ball. FCPX and it's suite of products no longer operates or have the tools most editors need. If you and or your company can make it with FCPX, I am happy for you. It is one of the lowest cost solutions going.

But if what you do requires a more professional model - WITH SUPPORT, which Apple no longer provides to FCP7 users, needs integration with software like After Effects, Photoshop, Encoders, etc. FCPX is not that product.

You can argue that some people sell work that has been edited in iMovie. That is perfectly true. Does it make it a professional editing tool. No. Do people make money with it. Yes.

What I was trying to point out is that while Apple is trying to patch their application with features that have made FCPX not an option for many post houses, Adobe is putting their resources toward some tools and features that will make their product even more feature rich that they are today.

I really couldn't care less about the FCPX debate. If you drank the Kool-Aid, fine by me. I have been an apple user since 1988. I have owned as many as 5 Apple Edit Suites at the same time, I have had one of each iPod, and iPhone 3G, 3Gs and 4. I have had both iPads. I am a fan.

Moving to the PC was a tough decision, but, like every editor, I had used Premiere in the past, so jumping to it now was not a big issue. The realtime, the extra features Premiere added - all making my life easier.

DBK


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Nick Toth
Re: For those of you still on the fence - check this out
on Oct 18, 2011 at 3:26:20 pm

[Bill Davis] "And FCP-X will get everyone who wants something different from what we've all had for the past 12 years."

It hit my mid-life crisis perfectly...

NT


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shawn Bockoven
Re: For those of you still on the fence - check this out
on Oct 18, 2011 at 4:54:00 pm

We are pumping out product faster and at what appears to be better quality. Even used FCPX to present multiple videos at a conference a few weeks ago on a $30,000 HD projector. My editors are finding it harder to move back to FCS for projects, however, we do have a multi-cam project to edit next month. Purchased and installed the Adobe suite, but nothing has motivated us to open Premiere.


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Michael Gissing
Re: For those of you still on the fence - check this out
on Oct 19, 2011 at 4:42:47 am

What's the big deal. Rub a Dub is just the same as Vocalign which has been available for a decade.

http://www.synchroarts.com/index.php?PAGEID=products&ID=vocalign-pro-V4

Why put this software in an edit tool? It needs to be in the software that is being used to record the ADR sessions so that sync and performance can be checked before sending the fixed files back to the edit. Hands up how many times editors have been sent un synced ADR to fit.


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Dennis Radeke
Re: For those of you still on the fence - check this out
on Oct 19, 2011 at 11:14:35 am

[Michael Gissing] "Why put this software in an edit tool? It needs to be in the software that is being used to record the ADR sessions so that sync and performance can be checked before sending the fixed files back to the edit."

Good point. Adobe does make an audio product called Audition. Perhaps it will show up there.


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Shawn Miller
Re: For those of you still on the fence - check this out
on Oct 19, 2011 at 5:21:42 pm

[Michael Gissing] "Why put this software in an edit tool? It needs to be in the software that is being used to record the ADR sessions so that sync and performance can be checked before sending the fixed files back to the edit. Hands up how many times editors have been sent un synced ADR to fit."

Hi Michael,

I think it depends on the kind of work you do. This year, I've done a fair number of projects in which I cut animations and still images to scratch dialog tracks, and then replaced the audio with a final voice over (a workflow I don't approve of, but can't change). In those cases, rubadub would be perfect. I think it would be great in any workflow in which final dialog has to match rough audio... much better than having to tweak the edit IMO.

Thanks,

Shawn



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Michael Gissing
Re: For those of you still on the fence - check this out
on Oct 19, 2011 at 9:02:45 pm

I hear you Shawn. Obviously the refit should happen in the sound studio where the dialog is recorded. My experience of edit suites is that audio monitoring is poor and also fixing any audio that isn't quite right requires sub frame edit accuracy.

No offence but very few picture editors have the skill set, tools and sync intolerance that us audio pros have. This software will be best in audio DAWs. It might be used effectively once in a blue moon in an NLE. All power to Adobe for developing another version of waveform sync software.


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Shawn Miller
Re: For those of you still on the fence - check this out
on Oct 19, 2011 at 9:49:09 pm

Hey Michael,

Not much to disagree with there. Then again, I started my career on the audio side of post-production. Hopefully, rubadub gets integrated into Audition as well as Premiere Pro. :-)

Shawn



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