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Mike Jeffs
FCPX and college students pro cons?
on Oct 12, 2011 at 5:38:36 pm

So we at BYU Idaho are looking at FCPx and also other NLE to teach and use on this campus.

I would love it if you guys who are using FCPX and maybe even those who aren't but are much smarter than i could help me compile a Pros cons list for FCPX when it comes to teaching students and using this software in a large lab/multi user environment.

Q little background. We would have 35 seats of fcpx all connected to a central Nas server for files and projects to live. For higher end projects and classes. Another 50 seats would be in an open lab where students would use their own log-ins to access the Macs, video and project storage would ideally be there on personal hard drives. This would be for lower end classes or personal projects. Then we have 12 High end edit suites (think any professional edit suit) for use on University level projects (commercials, online classes, institutional projects ect.)

So in your all expert opinions what are the pros and cons

Mike Jeffs
Video Coordinator
BYU-Idaho


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Andy Neil
Re: FCPX and college students pro cons?
on Oct 12, 2011 at 6:38:50 pm

Pros:

New media organization works well for facilities where students carry their own personal drives.

FCPX likely easy to learn for students not tied down to a specific NLE workflow.

Agnostic timeline and render speeds very helpful for students who are under deadline and not well organized. Media handling can help here too.

Cons:

FCPX works in a SAN environment, but I don't think is workable in a NAS environment at this time.

FCPX has likely low market penetration in the post field and its unclear how much that will change in the next couple of years. If the goal is to prepare students to cut in the "real" world, its a gamble.

FCPX is still on its first version and therefore not very stable. Be ready for LOTS of tech support.


I'm sure there are plenty more pros/cons out there...

Andy

http://www.timesavertutorials.com


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Neil Goodman
Re: FCPX and college students pro cons?
on Oct 12, 2011 at 8:24:25 pm

id say the biggest "con" is teaching something to kids, that might not help them at all in the real world. Its too early to tell if the industry will adopt it.

Neil Goodman: Editor of New Media Production - NBC/Universal


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Shane Ross
Re: FCPX and college students pro cons?
on Oct 12, 2011 at 9:11:34 pm

I'll echo Neil. You will want to teach an editing application that is in use in the market the students want to go into. The current outlook for FCX being used in the broadcast TV market, news market and film market is slim to zero. Avid is more the standard...and Adobe Premiere might fill the hole left by FCP7 being discontinued.

But it all depends on what they all plan on editing in the future. But if it is broadcast TV, news or feature films, learning FCX will only hurt their chances. As the editing methodology it uses is vastly different than the methods currently used.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Shane Ross
Re: FCPX and college students pro cons?
on Oct 12, 2011 at 10:00:13 pm

To add to this, the terminology FCX employs is vastly different than the rest of the post world. Most likely this will cause communication problems when trying to use another app.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCPX and college students pro cons?
on Oct 12, 2011 at 10:57:08 pm

Another con to consider is the 12 high-end edit suites. At this point in time you probably don't want these to be FCP X. This would mean that none of the FCP X projects as yet, would easily migrate to the high-end suites.

As far as the network, you would probably need to have all machines keep Projects and Events local. As I understand it, after the update, only one FCP X user can access an Events folder on a common network volume at a time. You could have Events local and then have multiple users link to common media on a SAN or NAS.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Mark Morache
Re: FCPX and college students pro cons?
on Oct 12, 2011 at 11:40:28 pm

Likewise, FCX has such a radically different paradigm, it would be difficult for people trained on it to migrate to Avid or Premiere. However once you learn either Avid or Premiere, it's fairly easy to retrain on the other.

However, it might be fun to have a few seats of FCX for the star students who pick the stuff up very quickly, and get a little bored with the status quo. I'd venture to say that even poor college students could afford the $299 to play with FCX.

---------
FCX. She tempts me, abuses me, beats me up, makes me feel worthless, then in the end she comes around, helps me get my work done, gives me hope and I can't stop thinking about her.

Mark Morache
Avid/Xpri/FCP7/FCX
Evening Magazine,Seattle, WA
http://fcpx.wordpress.com


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Mike Jeffs
Re: FCPX and college students pro cons?
on Oct 13, 2011 at 12:32:04 am

Great stuff so far. Do any of my mind if i quote you in a presentation I need to give to the university on friday?

Mike Jeffs
Video Coordinator
BYU-Idaho


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCPX and college students pro cons?
on Oct 13, 2011 at 1:22:29 am

[Mark Morache] " I'd venture to say that even poor college students could afford the $299 to play with FCX."

Of course, just as a point of comparison... For the same money, they can also own a full version of Media Composer, including the third party software bundle. Complete with 4 years of software updates and tech support.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Mark Morache
Re: FCPX and college students pro cons?
on Oct 13, 2011 at 1:40:41 am

[Oliver Peters] "Of course, just as a point of comparison... For the same money, they can also own a full version of Media Composer, including the third party software bundle. Complete with 4 years of software updates and tech support."

That's quite a deal. Wish they had that when I was in college.

4 years of updates? Really? AND tech support. Feels like it's a long way from the days of the very expensive Meridian box, and the very expensive licensing that I was using when I learned Avid.

I'd say we have Final Cut Pro to thank for the smart prices. And now we have FCP to thank for the mass migration away from Apple.

What a world.

---------
FCX. She tempts me, abuses me, beats me up, makes me feel worthless, then in the end she comes around, helps me get my work done, gives me hope and I can't stop thinking about her.

Mark Morache
Avid/Xpri/FCP7/FCX
Evening Magazine,Seattle, WA
http://fcpx.wordpress.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCPX and college students pro cons?
on Oct 13, 2011 at 1:48:28 am

[Mark Morache] "That's quite a deal. Wish they had that when I was in college."

http://www.avid.com/US/specialoffers/special-offers-Student-Pricing

I think tech support is only phone support, of course.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Dustin Parsons
Re: FCPX and college students pro cons?
on Oct 13, 2011 at 3:40:54 am

Whaaat? $300 for Media Composer and 4 years of updates is an insanely low price. Do you know how many classes you have to take before you can get the discount? I wonder if you can sign up for an Intro To Video class or something like that at a local community college and still get the deal – that'd save a lot of money.

To answer your question Mike, I'd reiterate what a few people have said already.

• FCPX might eventually be picked up by professionals but as of right now the majority of people who used FCP 7 are looking at Avid MC and Adobe Premiere Pro (I've been editing in LA for the past 3 years and I don't know one editor who's switch to FCPX or is planning on it)
• FCPX dramatically changes the terminology and paradigm of editing so if any students start cutting on FCPX they're going to have a difficult time working on any other editing system
• FCPX is still very new and most people don't think it'll really come into it's own for about another year, even Apple has stated that they didn't plan on people dropping FCP7 and migrating to X immediately. FCPX is a work in progress and it's difficult to tell when/if it'll ever be "finished" enough to have the same mass appeal/adoption that FCP7 had.

If you want to give your students a jump on FCPX just in case it does start picking up steam that's not a bad idea, but I'd definitely teach them Avid first.


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCPX and college students pro cons?
on Oct 13, 2011 at 12:44:56 pm

[Dustin Parsons] "Do you know how many classes you have to take before you can get the discount? I wonder if you can sign up for an Intro To Video class or something like that at a local community college and still get the deal – that'd save a lot of money."

http://www.avid.com/US/resources/Academic-Eligibility

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: FCPX and college students pro cons?
on Oct 13, 2011 at 3:01:20 pm

[Mark Morache] "FCX has such a radically different paradigm, it would be difficult for people trained on it to migrate to Avid or Premiere."

Until this week I'd have agreed completely with this assessment - but the this morning I spent a couple of hours with a 16-year old work experience kid who has been using iMovie for a while and got himself the trial version of FCPX just last Sunday and started work with it on Monday.

He'd cut a couple of pieces on FCPX to show me (movie trailers for Avatar) and ...

... I was completely blown away not just by how quickly he had got to grips with the software to a genuinely sophisticated level but how professional, well-thought-out and creatively effective his work actually was. That's in three days!!!!

Oh, and he'd already got a handle on the basics of Motion 5 within that same time.

Granted this was an exceptionally talented kid, but it did confirm to me what I have noticed for a while, which is that below a certain age kids are so natively computer-literate that picking up new software isn't a "learning process" as so many older folks find it to be, but a completely instinctual thing. The result is they learn at lightning speeds.

And my conclusion from that would be that they are more than capable of mastering multiple platforms at the same time - and will only benefit from the overview that exposure to different working models will give them. In short, I'm not at all sure anymore that learning FCPX would be a hindrance to learning anything else.

It's the rest of us over a certain age that I'm more worried about ;-)

On another note, I was very intrigued that this kid was asking a lot of the "big questions" about FCPX that have been vexing much older and wiser heads around here - his biggest gripe was the "visual clutter" of the audio clips in the timeline! Interesting ...

Simon Ubsdell
Director/Editor/Writer
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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Michael Hancock
Re: FCPX and college students pro cons?
on Oct 13, 2011 at 3:14:03 pm

Interesting, but hand him Media Composer and Premiere and have him come back in three days and evaluate how well he made the transition. That will tell you more about whether people who learn on FCPX can transition away from it easily or if it's too dissimilar in its methodologies. That's the crux of the issue.

----------------
Michael Hancock
Editor


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: FCPX and college students pro cons?
on Oct 13, 2011 at 3:17:54 pm

[Michael Hancock] "Interesting, but hand him Media Composer and Premiere and have him come back in three days and evaluate how well he made the transition. That will tell you more about whether people who learn on FCPX can transition away from it easily or if it's too dissimilar in its methodologies. That's the crux of the issue."

It would be an interesting experiment certainly if I could persuade his parents to let me use him as a lab rat - not sure that's going to happen.

My feeling is that he would learn it all pretty quickly and be completely unfazed by an supposed methodological incompatibilities - I think what actually impressed me the most was that he was seeing past the software to the underlying principles in a very perceptive way.

Simon Ubsdell
Director/Editor/Writer
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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Shane Ross
Re: FCPX and college students pro cons?
on Oct 13, 2011 at 3:27:50 pm

That only proves that the kid knows how to put together clips on a timeline and tell a story. That's only part of what we do as editors. It is a BIG part, don't get me wrong. But telling a story isn't the only thing we do. And the fact that he came from iMovie and got up to speed in FCX really quickly only goes to prove how similar FCX is to iMovie...and what user base FCX caters to.

Now..tell that kid to prep the timeline for broadcast. Since that is where the trailer would be seen...either in the theatre (that would be a FILM prep then), or broadcast TV. Have them export an OMF for the audio person to mix...oh, wait...can't do that. FCX doesn't do OMF...hmmm. Well, they might "soon" be able to send the sequence to the colorist, once that feature of XML is adopted and works with Resolve.

The point is that editors don't just grab clips, throw them on a timeline and call it a day. No, we need to do a lot of technical things in order to make sure that the project we are editing is ready for broadcast, or film out.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: FCPX and college students pro cons?
on Oct 13, 2011 at 3:36:13 pm

[Shane Ross] "That only proves that the kid knows how to put together clips on a timeline and tell a story. That's only part of what we do as editors. It is a BIG part, don't get me wrong. But telling a story isn't the only thing we do. And the fact that he came from iMovie and got up to speed in FCX really quickly only goes to prove how similar FCX is to iMovie...and what user base FCX caters to."

Yikes!

I only said that he, in common with loads of kids his age, is incredibly fast at learning stuff.

I absolutely accept that FCPX is not ready for professional use - I am also prepared to agree that it may never become suitable. Without OMF, it's a completely dead dog for me - and I need EDL as well not to mention dual monitors and a a bunch of other stuff that is pretty non-negotiable.

My point was rather that, given the ability of this age group to learn stuff fast, why not throw everything at them and get them to learn as much as possible? Speaking as an employer, the one set of editors I have no interest in giving a job to is the kind that only know one way or working. Anyone who can show me they know loads of different applications (and not just NLEs, but mograph, 3D, audio, music, etc.) is always going to get my interest.

Simon Ubsdell
Director/Editor/Writer
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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Gary Hazen
Re: FCPX and college students pro cons?
on Oct 13, 2011 at 5:55:52 pm

I agree with both you and Shane.

To your point, the quick learners get my attention as well. If they can pick up learning a new app quickly that's an important skill set.

To rephrase Shane's question, are the students capable or willing to do the boring stuff?

If you offered students the following choices of elective classes:
A) Non Linear Editing
B) Motion Graphics
C) Understanding video and audio signals
D) Audio Post Production
E) 3D Animation

How many students would sign up for class C?

Students can know "loads of programs" (A, B, D, and E), but if they don't know how to prepare material for broadcast then they don't know enough.

-- begin rant
Unfortunately the schools don't spend any time teaching the boring stuff. I once asked a professor if they taught the students how to read a scope and he said, "No we don't have time for that, we teach em' Media Composer and Final Cut - that's about all the time we have." The primary focus of a course on TV/Production should be on the fundamentals rather than a specific NLE. Editing platforms come and go, the fundamentals are constant.
-- end rant


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Mike Jeffs
Re: FCPX and college students pro cons?
on Oct 13, 2011 at 6:30:56 pm

[Gary Hazen] "begin rant
Unfortunately the schools don't spend any time teaching the boring stuff. I once asked a professor if they taught the students how to read a scope and he said, "No we don't have time for that, we teach em' Media Composer and Final Cut - that's about all the time we have." The primary focus of a course on TV/Production should be on the fundamentals rather than a specific NLE. Editing platforms come and go, the fundamentals are constant.
-- end ran"




I actually agree with this rant. It is unfortuante in our school this is also the case, not having enough time. But "lucky" for the students who work for me I cram this stuff down their throats. I can tell those that actual learn the technicle stuff and the "Whys" are the ones who end up getting better jobs or move through the ranks of their jobs quicker. The age old qoute is true Knowledge is Power.

Mike Jeffs
Video Coordinator
BYU-Idaho


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Mark Morache
Re: FCPX and college students pro cons?
on Oct 14, 2011 at 3:05:07 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "Granted this was an exceptionally talented kid,"

Thanks for sharing Simon. I stand by my statement that students should learn a traditional track based NLE first, then if they can handle it, be introduced to FCX. I've seen people struggle with learning curves, and you can't start learning something new if you haven't gotten ahead of the curve on the first thing.

I believe you in the capacity for younger kids to quickly learn and master the software. It's not just FCX however. I've seen most of my kids opening up FCP6 on the G5 they inherited from me, and start doing basic editing without any input from me at all.

I'm struggling with the merits of teaching some co-workers FCP since it's EOL'd. Is there a whole lot of point to that especially considering all of us on the staff are old enough to remember dial phones and pagers.

---------
FCX. She tempts me, abuses me, beats me up, makes me feel worthless, then in the end she comes around, helps me get my work done, gives me hope and I can't stop thinking about her.

Mark Morache
Avid/Xpri/FCP7/FCX
Evening Magazine,Seattle, WA
http://fcpx.wordpress.com


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Andy Neil
Re: FCPX and college students pro cons?
on Oct 14, 2011 at 3:25:20 pm

[Mark Morache] "I stand by my statement that students should learn a traditional track based NLE first, then if they can handle it, be introduced to FCX."

It's funny because I used to train editors all the time. Most of the hires I made were kids just out of school. They hated the fact that their first two weeks were spent on a DVCPro deck to deck machine cutting linear tape.

You see, all these kids already had FCP or Premiere on their computers and had effectively (if not EFFECTIVELY) been non-linear editing for years. Some of them had FCP in their elementary schools, but they all seemed to have had it from high school on. College was their first real training, but they had already built bad habits and colleges are more concerned with the student's overall knowledge of editing rather than reversing bad practices.

I mention this because I suspect that the next generation of kids will already have a working knowledge of FCPX before they get to college. The $300 price tag, and lack of serious software security will probably ensure that. So colleges who teach Avid, or Premiere, or Media 100 will end up having to teach them about bins and tracks and such, not the other way around.

Whether that poses more of a problem or less of a problem is unknown. It probably won't be a problem at all. A lot of the students I teach editing to these days are also in Maya and After Effects classes. Those are completely different programs that are extremely deep, but it doesn't seem to faze my students in the least. I can't imagine trying to pick up a 3D modeling app at this point.

Andy

http://www.timesavertutorials.com


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Tero Ahlfors
Re: FCPX and college students pro cons?
on Oct 16, 2011 at 10:28:31 am

I'd say that the poor students might be better off with a student version of Production Premium CS5.5. The whole package is about 400 euros and has anything one would ever need.


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Walter Soyka
Re: FCPX and college students pro cons?
on Oct 13, 2011 at 1:10:40 am

I started a thread a few months ago called What does FCPX teach new editors? [link].

I don't think it directly answers your questions, but there was some pretty good conversation in there that you might find useful.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Ben Scott
Re: FCPX and college students pro cons?
on Oct 13, 2011 at 1:32:08 pm

as a trainer (I also train commercially as ACT) who has worked at times in higher education as a part time lecturer I would like to feedback something related to me from someone more full time at the university.

he said the purpose of the course should have been training so they can go into the workplace but that it rarely was that (to add to that he, myself and many others were doubtful if they could attain that level of understanding from the course on offer). What he admired as an alternative was that the focus became on concepts and film/media theory (probably due to lack of technical staff or impetus to call them lecturers).
he isnt the only person in higher ed I have had echoing these comments

I tend to agree that its the ideas that matter and that the software isnt so important. I realise in some situations with technical courses this can be different.

one thing I dont agree with is that this is going to cause a world of technical problems and pain, in fact as far as I can see it will really lower the technical requests as its media management is way more robust than in the past with version 7

also I think time for learners to get up to speed will be dramatically reduced with FCPX as I feel it is simpler and self taught persons cannot learn as many bad habits as when they are let loose with tracks and filed anywhere on the harddrive. if it is simpler for learners to get started and tell storied this is good thing NO?

and no I dont think this software is any more limiting in storytelling as a consequence of its design than any other software, just wish the audio mixing was a bit better thought out


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Walter Soyka
Re: FCPX and college students pro cons?
on Oct 13, 2011 at 1:39:49 pm

[Ben Scott] "I tend to agree that its the ideas that matter and that the software isnt so important."

It's not just a question of software; FCPX differs conceptually from every other NLE.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Mike Jeffs
Re: FCPX and college students pro cons?
on Oct 13, 2011 at 1:53:45 pm

Ben,

I whole hardly agree that teaching storytelling and theory are important and necessary requirements. Our main issue is this. We are a 4 year university, with the mandate of being a Liberal arts school but with the focus on job ready students when they graduate. We do not prepare students for graduate school, or to go into more debt. We are to train students in their field of choice in a way that prepares them to be ready to get jobs. This is put in the most simplest terms of course it’s a lot more then this but essentially this is it in a nut shell. The School was recently rank 9th for best value for the cost of tuition in the nation (tuition here is aprox 1,200 a semester).

So with this in mind yes we need to teach students Theory and practicality, in this particular it means we have to teach software. Because of the small staff 3 full time TV/video/film professors and the relatively short amount of class time (4 year university after generals only 2 years of major course work) we have to cram and a lot into a little amount of time.

My particular job on campus is to support the university with its video needs (the institutional projects; commercials president messages ect.) As such I hire current students to work with me in this field. Again I don't have a lot of time to train them on how to use a NLE I need them to be able to come on board and immediately start working. I think of myself as a hybrid Educator/ actual employer. So I am trying to figure out what will help these students get jobs in the "Real World" while having them help us.

For me it is a interesting pickle which is why I reach out to you experts and potential employers to get your take and help me help the university make a informed decision.

PS I have video skills not grammar skills :)

Mike Jeffs
Video Coordinator
BYU-Idaho


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Shane Ross
Re: FCPX and college students pro cons?
on Oct 13, 2011 at 2:37:58 pm

[Ben Scott] " I feel it is simpler and self taught persons cannot learn as many bad habits as when they are let loose with tracks"

Well, track based editing is what professionals use when editing. Teaching track based editing means teaching GOOD habits. That's one of the big problems that I encounter when dealing with timelines from beginning editors...their footage and audio is all over the place...no rhyme or reason to it. They need to be taught good methods for organizing their timeline. FCX is very problematic as it will reinforce with these new editors that tracks are unimportant, and that is not true. FCX will be the only "professional" NLE that is not track based. And Apple seems to think this is the future of editing. Professionals beg to differ.

[Ben Scott] "if it is simpler for learners to get started and tell storied this is good thing NO?"

Editing is an art and a craft. And you need to teach the tool along with the art. Teach the art alone and you teach people to appreciate...or critique. If you want to teach them to DO, you need to teach the tool. Can you teach painting without teaching how to use a brush and how make a stroke? Can you teach graphic arts without teaching the tools to create them? And editing is a CRAFT...like carpentry. Can you teach how to build a house without teaching how to use a hammer and saw? How to look at read blueprints? Camera operators aren't only taught the art of lighting...they aren't only shown paintings by Rembrandt to study light...shown movies to see how cinematographers "paint with light." They are also taught the basics of electrical systems...watts, amps, foot candles. They are taught how to read a light meter. How many lights they can plug into a wall as to not overload the system and blow a circuit.

Filmmaking...TV show making...involves science as much as art.

And if you teach an NLE that is completely different from every professional NLE out there, with differing terminology, then you hamper the students. They won't be able to communicate properly with other editors. They will have to forget everything they learned and start from scratch.

When students graduate they rarely jump right into being editors. At least in broadcast TV and feature films. They start out as Apprentice Editors, or Assistant editors. Because while school teaches the art of editing, and the basics of editing, the students still do not know everything they need to know about editing for broadcast TV...or feature films. There are many many details that they learn on the job. That they MUST learn on the job. Because feature film editing, broadcast TV editing, web video editing, music video editing, corporate video editing all have different workflows...stuff that the schools do not cover.

So they learn on the job. Work their way up...better learn the tools of the craft...CRAFT of editing. If they go in with completely different terminology, they will be at a disadvantage. And I have worked in places where many of the editors were kids right out of school, who didn't assist or apprentice, and their editing wasn't up to snuff. Their projects had to be fixed...they had to be told what to do in order to fix things and make them right for broadcast TV. This is stuff they would learn as assistants.

If the students want to head right into wedding video, web video, home movies. Fine, teach them FCX and only teach the art of editing. But if they want careers in film or broadcast TV...which I'm sure most of them want...then they need to be taught the proper tools of the trade, and how to use those tools...as much as teaching the art.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Luke Hale
Re: FCPX and college students pro cons?
on Oct 13, 2011 at 3:29:05 pm

Any one of the students you are describing should be able to pick up FCPX in the workplace on day one (even if it is there fist day in FCP). But if it is there first day in AVID they are going to take two weeks to train. I would hire an AVID specialist to edit in FCPX with no hesitation, but if I see a resume with FCPX I would reject it immediately. And an employer in today’s market place has that convenience. (Of course an amazing demo real trumps a resume)

I think your first step is to find someone close to your collage who is working in the industry. Perhaps one of your old students who works for the government. And bring them in to consult on your situation and determine what would make your students the most employable. It would only cost you about a thousand dollars and it would be worth your investment. Ha Ha

Luke Hale
DOE Video Production
Idaho Falls ID


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: FCPX and college students pro cons?
on Oct 13, 2011 at 3:40:01 pm

[Luke Hale] "I would hire an AVID specialist to edit in FCPX with no hesitation"

And I never would! Ever. "AVID specialists" are the most stuck in their ways and incapable of embracing new stuff of any editors out there - in fact, they are the most like the old school film editors who said they would never edit on a computer.

(PS. I worked full time on Media Composer for ten years before there was any such thing as FCP.)

Simon Ubsdell
Director/Editor/Writer
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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Luke Hale
Re: FCPX and college students pro cons?
on Oct 13, 2011 at 3:58:22 pm

I am more of an any tool works guy. I am primarily an FCP editor but I don’t understand the constant bickering about the tools we use to create such similar products. I guess we do need a resin to segregate among ourselves.


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Tim Wilson
Re: FCPX and college students pro cons?
on Oct 13, 2011 at 3:54:11 pm

[Dustin Parsons] "Whaaat? $300 for Media Composer and 4 years of updates is an insanely low price. Do you know how many classes you have to take before you can get the discount? I wonder if you can sign up for an Intro To Video class or something like that at a local community college and still get the deal – that'd save a lot of money."

As the page Oliver links to points out, you don't have to actually take ANY specific classes to be eligible. Avid's goal is to get Media Composer in the hands of students. The key words that you see repeated are "students enrolled in" -- and then a reference to a SCHOOL, not a CLASS.

Ditto teachers: you're eligible if you teach ANYTHING full time, from primary school, up. Not just teachers, staff too.

Homeschool parents, teachers and students note: if you meet your state's guidelines for homeschooling, YOU ARE ALSO eligible for this deal!

The fact is that with Avid's current discounts, there's no reason to try to sneak a quicky enrollment at your local junior college to save a few bucks. You have to be enrolled full time. Easier to just take the crossgrade price.

Final note: at the end of 4 years, your license converts to a full pro license. There's NO difference in function -- it's just that you can sit in front of a client, and they won't see a splash screen that says "For Educational Use Only." FCP never offered this ability....or this price of course.

At this price, there's no reason for students and schools not to add Media Composer to the mix of everything else that's in the curriculum.

Here's the link again. A quick, very enlightening read. A lot of what you thought you knew about Avid even a few years ago probably needs updating.

PS. You can get Pro Tools at the same price.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: FCPX and college students pro cons?
on Oct 13, 2011 at 4:32:38 pm

[Tim Wilson] "Here's the link again. A quick, very enlightening read. A lot of what you thought you knew about Avid even a few years ago probably needs updating.
"


Tim,

The link you included is broken. Mind tracking that down and including a working link?

THNX,
DRW

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Michael Hancock
Re: FCPX and college students pro cons?
on Oct 13, 2011 at 4:36:38 pm

Tim had a . included in the link. I think this is what he was linking to:

http://www.avid.com/US/resources/Academic-Eligibility

----------------
Michael Hancock
Editor


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Mike Jeffs
Re: FCPX and college students pro cons?
on Oct 13, 2011 at 6:18:04 pm

So from what I am reading it seems the pros and cons fall into these main catagories

Pros

Its easy to pick up and learn
Format Agnostic-ish
orginization features
Cheap

Cons
Changes tried and true editing practices and techniques
Changes the languague of editing
Possible low market penatration (but don't know)
Not super Stable
Avid is as Cheap (for eductional)

I would love more thoughts

Mike Jeffs
Video Coordinator
BYU-Idaho


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David Cherniack
Re: FCPX and college students pro cons?
on Oct 13, 2011 at 6:49:40 pm

There's another point to consider: at this time there's no guarantee that FCPx will be around in a couple of years.

I know that many here will find this an outrageous statement but it's clear from Apple not touting sales figures that X has not exactly been flying off the virtual shelves. We could hazard a guess what the paid base so far is. Thousands? Probably. Tens of thousands? I'd wonder.

In any case that they, who love to tout impressive new release sales figures, have been silent, is telling that they've nothing to tout about.

It's also clear that their vast majority of sales and profits are coming from consumer products. If they're willing to abandon their entire high end user base then how easy will it be for them to let this product, that's cost them so much in development and prestige, slip beneath the waves to oblivion.

Now before anyone starts citing the announcement that there'll be multicam and support for third party monitoring by early next year I think it wise to both remember that the same has been said about many products in the past that were shortly thereafter EOLd - and to read between the lines - 'support' means an API - the third parties still have to write working drivers and that will take a while. So maybe by 3rd or 4th quarter 2012 if my experience with third party IO drivers is any judge. And even then, FCPx will still not be a mature NLE with a complete ecosystem. That takes a minimum of 3-5 development cycles. Then there's the magnetic timeline which appears so far to be unsuited for complex, high end work. And with Avid and Adobe clearly positioning themselves to vacuum up the users who are fleeing from FCP they'll be adding whatever is good about X to their own arsenal of tools. So how many shops will consider returning to the X ship if and when Apple ever gets it up to speed?

All these factors will be weighed by the marketing boys in Apple who control the development purse strings. Judging by the past it's not inconceivable they'll kill it. So, as far as the future maybe the best policy is to hope for the best and not be surprised if the worst befalls.

And lest anyone think I'm a happy Cassandra about this, far from it. Even if X is presently something of a marketing disaster, it's caused many of us to re-think NLEs and to question what we've assumed is their most efficient architecture. Nothing is so perfect that it can't be improved so I'll continue to read this forum and be delighted when people here push it as hard as they can to discover its limits.

David
AllinOneFilms.com


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: FCPX and college students pro cons?
on Oct 13, 2011 at 7:07:37 pm

[David Cherniack] "Even if X is presently something of a marketing disaster, it's caused many of us to re-think NLEs and to question what we've assumed is their most efficient architecture."

Absolutely agree - whatever our individual conclusions it's been a fascinating eye-opener and has brought forth some genuinely insightful commentary on a huge range of related topics from some very clever people!

Maybe FCPX should be taught exactly because it is such a challenge to accepted ways of doing things - it certainly seems to get people thinking ;-)

Simon Ubsdell
Director/Editor/Writer
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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Gerald Baria
Re: FCPX and college students pro cons?
on Oct 17, 2011 at 8:48:39 am

[David Cherniack] "There's another point to consider: at this time there's no guarantee that FCPx will be around in a couple of years."

But Apple, with their billions of dollars in profit is the most stable company with an NLE than any other company that exists.its competition are only millionaires. A slight change of hand, lost sales, marketing palugue, hack can easily put them out of business. But with Apple, the most valuable company in the world, its pretty hard. So in this regard, you can feel more secure that this company is the more reliable option.

Yes massive changes were made, but have'nt we learned anything the past decade?! This is Apple. That's their thing. They make things infinitely better, they do things right. Sometrimes they do it so fast that we are initially caught stunned for some period but eventually realize that its the most awesome thing ever. It happend over and over again from the iMac G3, the iPod, iTunes, iPhone, iPad...Everybody cried foul and doomed it to fail but meh, it ruled the world. Do you really think FCPX is any different.

Next year the two last requirement for full broadcast integration will be fixed, third party APIs will have completed the plug-ins. FCPX will have been faster and more stable, and every other editor who have just invested thousands into other "traditional" NLEs will look in envy as the el-cheapo guys, kool aid drinkers, Apple sheeps makes awesome stuff on their macbook airs on coffee shops on breaks, docking it into their thunderbolt monitors daisy chained to TB raids and accessing centralized data thru iCloud.

This is the future, It would be fit if you prepare your students for it.

Quobetah
New=Better


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Michael Hancock
Re: FCPX and college students pro cons?
on Oct 17, 2011 at 11:27:54 am

[Gerald Baria] "But Apple, with their billions of dollars in profit is the most stable company with an NLE than any other company that exists."

Apple, with their billions of dollars, released FCPX and immediately ended sales of FCS3. FCPX is not a replacement for FCS3, so they proved that despite their money they are the least stable of all the NLE producers. They killed Color, Soundtrack and DVDSP overnight and offered no replacement. They proved that pro apps aren't important to their bottom line, so trusting that they'll make the greatest NLE and stick with it in the long run is naively optimistic.


[Gerald Baria] "Sometrimes they do it so fast that we are initially caught stunned for some period but eventually realize that its the most awesome thing ever. It happend over and over again from the iMac G3, the iPod, iTunes, iPhone, iPad...Everybody cried foul and doomed it to fail but meh, it ruled the world. Do you really think FCPX is any different."

Those are consumer products, not professional level apps.

FCP became very popular but was far from the best NLE in the market, as your statement implies. Apple markets well. FCP was woefully lacking in many ways compared to Avid and Adobe and Media 100 and Edius (think camera support, media management, and realtime playback). But people love Apple and are very, very loyal to them. Well, Apple killed a ton of that loyalty with the release of FCPX, hence the popularity of this forum.

Just because it's made by Apple doesn't mean it's the future way of editing, and it certainly doesn't mean they can regain the ground they've lost in the pro market. I would never build an entire business around them - they're not a dependable supplier for the work we do. Use some of their products? Sure, but not rely on them for everything hardware and software.

----------------
Michael Hancock
Editor


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David Cherniack
Re: FCPX and college students pro cons?
on Oct 17, 2011 at 11:57:25 am

[Gerald Baria] "have'nt we learned anything the past decade?! This is Apple. That's their thing. They make things infinitely better, they do things right. Sometrimes they do it so fast that we are initially caught stunned for some period but eventually realize that its the most awesome thing ever."

To answer the question you ask in the first sentence, as judged by the following sentences, apparently not.

David
AllinOneFilms.com


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Chris Harlan
Re: FCPX and college students pro cons?
on Oct 17, 2011 at 6:02:59 pm

[Gerald Baria] " but have'nt we learned anything the past decade?!"

Yeah. I learned how to use Shake.


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Christian Schumacher
Re: FCPX and college students pro cons?
on Oct 17, 2011 at 7:02:13 pm

[Chris Harlan] " Yeah. I learned how to use Shake."

And Cinema Tools and DVD Studio Pro and Live Type and Soundtrack and Color...


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Daniel McClintock
Re: FCPX and college students pro cons?
on Oct 14, 2011 at 4:14:38 am

Mike,

I work at Western Colorado Community College in Grand Junction, Colorado. We're a branch of Colorado Mesa University here. WCCC has been using the Production Premium Suite for five years and the University switched over to the Master Suite this year.

One thing to consider is that as the world starts going transmedia, Adobe provides affordable products that can be used as curriculum changes.

We not only teach video editing, but use the suites in combination with 3D animation programs to create content that goes not only on television, but the web, print, tablets, phones and so forth.

Another thing to consider is that while you may thinking about just video editing, consider that in the Master Suite your students will be learning industry-standard programs such as Photoshop, Illustrator, After Effects, InDesign, Acrobat, Flash (and soon HTML5), and Dreamweaver. That's what convinced us over just buying Avid or FCPX. For a reasonable price, we obtained programs that not only fulfill current needs, but future needs.

"Sometimes Life Needs a Cmd-Z!"


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