FORUMS: list search recent posts

The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why

COW Forums : Apple Final Cut Pro X Debates

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
David Lawrence
The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 10, 2011 at 6:44:06 pm

This topic continues an earlier conversation on the open timeline and spatial workflows. I gave a simple example of my typical use of the timeline in FCP7 as scratchpad/workspace during my editorial process and invited comparisons with the magnetic timeline. You can view and join in that discussion here:

http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/16979

This topic is the second part of my response to Jeremy Garchow's excellent post and examples found here:

http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/17096

I also want to address a couple items brought up by Steve Connor:

[Steve Connor] "I'm still interested in exactly what constraints are making the process inefficient, is it the lack of tracks? is it connected clips?"

Much of my efficiency is dependent on quickly and predictably manipulating objects in the open space of the open timeline. I'm very fast working this way. I'm sure there are thousands of other editors who work in a similar fashion. Jeremy demonstrated and I've myself tried working in a similar way on the magnetic timeline. While it's entirely possible, I find my efficiency breaks down almost immediately.

Here's why:

[Steve Connor] "David, you do understand that the position tool disables ripple? If you use the position tool nothing on the timeline ripples, it just automatically creates gaps when you leave a space. That is the only way it is different to FCP7 in terms of clip positioning,"

This is typical of many comments in these forums since June, usually in response to complaints about the magnetic timeline being ripple only. While correct on the surface, I believe comments like these reflect a fundamental misunderstanding of the Position Tool, gaps, and the magnetic timeline's true nature.

Consider this:

The magnetic timeline is ripple only. The Position Tool does not change this fact.

Instead, the Position Tool simply acts as a workaround in the same way that the 10.0.1 update automatically creates secondary storylines when transitions are added to connected clips.

Connected clips cannot have transitions unless enclosed in a storyline container. The 10.0.1 update doesn't change this constraint, it simply saves a couple keystrokes. Similarly, the magnetic timeline always ripples. The Position Tool simply inserts or extends gaps to hold space open depending on where a clip is placed. This is not the same as disabling ripple mode.

The magnetic timeline is ripple only.

Here's why I believe this is true:

1) The Position Tool is a tool. If the Position Tool really disabled ripple, it would be a timeline mode, rather than a tool. There would be a toggle button on the timeline just as there currently is for snapping, soloing, and skimming. A tool is not a timeline mode change.

2) When we observe the behavior of the timeline as we manipulate gaps with the position tool, we see its ripple-only nature revealed. We also see a very serious bug.

Here's a video that demonstrates both:







In the video, I'm simply lifting a gap above and below the primary storyline. Notice what happens to the clips to the right of the gap. They ripple. And the clip to the immediate right of the gap gets eaten. That's the bug. If you keep pulling and dropping the gap, eventually all clips to the right will be swallowed up! This bug is verified repeatable on an entirely different machine in Los Angeles with entirely different media. Please test this yourself and report back what you find. If you notice the same bug, make sure you file a bug report with Apple so they can fix it ASAP. Hopefully, it gets addressed fast, before the next major update.

Even after this bug is fixed, I still have a problem. It has to do with the intrinsic nature of the magnetic timeline itself. As demonstrated above, the magnetic timeline is ripple only. Gaps are required to fill any space between clips. And here's the part that for me at least, is the deal breaker -- gaps are objects.

Why is this a big deal? Some pictures will hopefully make it clear:



This is another example of my typical rough-cut timeline. It's similar to the editorial timeline in my previous example. Space is a key organization tool.





Here's how that same timeline would look in FCP7 if it behaved like the magnetic timeline in FCPX. All space is filled with slug objects. This is what FCPX storylines behave like as soon as you start using gaps and the Position Tool. Don't be fooled by the shiny new chrome. It may look different but make no mistake, in terms of interaction, this is exactly what FCPX makes you deal with. See why this might be a problem?

In FCPX, space in no longer space. Space is now an object.

This means you must now manage all the negative space between your clips in addition to the clips themselves. For anyone like myself who depends on a spatial workflow, this is simply unacceptable.

Consider is how unintuitive things quickly become. Here's a simple example:

On an open timeline, if I want to delete a clip or a range, I simply select and delete. In FCPX, a simple delete aways ripples by default. If I don't want to ripple, I must insert a gap.

Think about that for a second in terms of intention and required action.

In order to delete, you must insert space.

You're essentially being asked to perform the opposite action of your intention. You're training yourself to work backwards. Sure, you can learn to do it. But why? Does it make sense? Is it intuitive? Is it really a better way to think and work?

I think this is a big reason why so many advanced editors have trouble adapting to the mechanics of the magnetic timeline. I don't think it's about muscle memory. I think it's a natural resistance to the design's inconsistencies and counterintuitive demands.

Taken together, these are the things that grind my efficiency to a halt and why I feel like I'm constantly fighting against the magnetic timeline's design.

When I want to work quickly and at a frame level, having to account for both clips and gaps and when to use the Position Tool vs the Select Tool and whether to trim from the clip or the gap and when to insert when I want to deleteā€¦ well you get the picture. And this is just for the simplest possible example. We haven't gotten into tracks vs trackless or the trim tools yet!

Again, there's a lot I like in FCPX, especially the organization tools. I have no doubt many find it useful and will easily adapt to its optimal workflows. Oliver Peter's list is pretty much spot on.

But for me, Apple's direction with ripple mode and gaps in FCPX means it will remain a curiosity for editorial work for a very long time, possibly for good. For heavily lifting, I'll be cutting elsewhere. And for the same reason, I think it will have a very difficult time gaining industry traction. Michel Gissing nailed it in this other thread. He's speaking as an audio guy, but we have similar workflow styles and I share his sentiments:

[Michael Gissing] "I do broadcast post finishing (grade & sound post). FCPX is effectively useless as an editing app in my workflow. Until robust OMF and XML round tripping, ability to open years of FCP legacy projects and proper monitoring via Kona/ Matrox/ Decklink cards is available, it remains a curio.

As broadcast dies sometime in the next decade, it might become a mature app and useful to my business. I resent Apple trying to engineer the demise of broadcast like they have with floppy drives and bluray, regardless of whether history eventual proves their point. Software and hardware companies are best when they coerce with superior product but not when they decide a formats fate and force it upon you. Secrecy and forced legacy make me nervous of any supplier."


Yep. That sounds about right to me. But it's still fun dissecting this thing and learning what it is, what it can do and how it changes our industry.

Alright, your turn.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


Return to posts index

Neil Goodman
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 10, 2011 at 7:41:13 pm

just playing Devils Advocate here, i actually hate the magnetic timeline with a passion. Hate connected clips/storylines adn pretty much everything FCPX introed except maybe background processing.

but

If you break it down. Media Composer works similiar. Although the timeline isnt locked in ripple mode. You cant have gaps on the timeline either. Instead you have "filler" which can be manipulated, trimmed etc, even add filters to it . It is essentially a gap clip as well. The difference is MC has two segment modes, one for rippling, one for overwites .If FCPX had these two different modes, problem solved right ?

Neil Goodman: Editor of New Media Production - NBC/Universal


Return to posts index

David Lawrence
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 10, 2011 at 7:56:50 pm

[Neil Goodman] "If you break it down. Media Composer works similiar. Although the timeline isnt locked in ripple mode. You cant have gaps on the timeline either. Instead you have "filler" which can be manipulated, trimmed etc, even add filters to it . It is essentially a gap clip as well. The difference is MC has two segment modes, one for rippling, one for overwites .If FCPX had these two different modes, problem solved right ?"

You're absolutely right. MC's gap implementation is nice. I think the key is that in MC, you don't really have to think of the negative space as an object unless you make a cut or need to use it as a slug. Then it transparently changes function. It's smart and useful. And of course, ripple is a mode, not default. If FCPX changes to behave this way, it would solve a lot!

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


Return to posts index


Steve Connor
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 10, 2011 at 7:50:18 pm

David, gap behaviour is perfectly logical and not a bug at all.

Gaps are the last line of defence between clips in the FCPX, if there is no gap then there can be no space between clips.

It would be illogical for FCPX to have behaviour where when you move or edit a gap, another gap is created!

It assumes by default if you are editing gaps then you don't want that space there and moves everything accordingly. FCP7 does the same, if you delete a gap between clips it ripples by default.

The position tool manipulates clips without rippling, not gaps. You ignore the gaps because they can be overwritten by clips, they are simply the black space between clips as in FCP7, you don't edit the gaps in FCP7 you move the clips to fill the gaps.

[David Lawrence] "On an open timeline, if I want to delete a clip or a range, I simply select and delete. In FCPX, a simple delete aways ripples by default. If I don't want to ripple, I must insert a gap.
"


Not true, Shift delete deletes the clip and leaves a gap automatically, you do not have to manage the gaps at all, you don't have to touch them, you don't have to create them.

"My Name is Steve and I'm an FCPX user"


Return to posts index

David Lawrence
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 10, 2011 at 8:20:12 pm

[Steve Connor] "David, gap behaviour is perfectly logical and not a bug at all."

Watch the video again. Just lifting and dropping the gap with the Position Tool causes the the clip to the immediate right to be swallowed. Why? Because the timeline is rippling under the lifted gap. If the Position Tool automatically creates gaps when you move a clip object, why wouldn't it also create gaps when you move a gap object? To my mind, this is inconsistent behavior.

[Steve Connor] "It would be illogical for FCPX to have behaviour where when you move or edit a gap, another gap is created! "

Why?

[Steve Connor] "Not true, Shift delete deletes the clip and leaves a gap automatically..."

Sure, but technically shift-delete is replace with gap. It's the opposite of FCP7 but I can adapt -- not that big a deal.

[Steve Connor] "...you do not have to manage the gaps at all, you don't have to touch them, you don't have to create them."

I find this to be untrue. Gaps are objects. You have to deal with them. If you want to extend open space to the right of a gap, you have to trim forward from the gap tail. Something you could easily accomplish in FCP7 with T or TTT and a quick drag. Or Try applying a cross dissolve at the head of a clip. In FCP7 the dissolve begins at the head of the clip. In FCPX the dissolve centers between the gap and the clip. There's currently no easy way to start the cross dissolve at transition end.

I realize that FCPX provides other tools to accomplish the same goals. But as long as gaps are objects, you have to deal with them. My $.02

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 10, 2011 at 8:30:50 pm

[David Lawrence] "If you want to extend open space to the right of a gap, you have to trim forward from the gap tail. Something you could easily accomplish in FCP7 with T or TTT and a quick drag."

And completely unnecessary in X. You don't have to select the entire right side of the timeline, you simply insert space, then define it's length. Everything else moves along with it. Easy.

[David Lawrence] "There's currently no easy way to start the cross dissolve at transition end."

Definitely not as easy as "start at beginning", but the precision editor (control-e) does allow more control and gets you want you want. If not, you simply move the clip up to a connected clip (option-command-up) and start it right there, and trim the clip below it.


Return to posts index


Simon Ubsdell
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 10, 2011 at 8:43:48 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "And completely unnecessary in X. You don't have to select the entire right side of the timeline, you simply insert space, then define it's length. Everything else moves along with it. Easy."

I'd have to agree about this - compared to the track tool (which was the one huge thing missing from Media Composer until very recently), inserting a gap to shift events down the timeline is a far more elegant and controllable solution than anything yet devised for this purpose.

This is where you really see the beauty (as against the hideousness) of connected clips - everything moves exactly as you woul want it to with complete precision. Every other method of approaching this task involves a lot more complicated and time-consuming finessing of the edit.

Simon Ubsdell
Director/Editor/Writer
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


Return to posts index

Simon Ubsdell
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 10, 2011 at 8:34:24 pm

[David Lawrence] "Gaps are objects."

Again, this is clearly true in Media Composer as well, as is made much clearer in MC 5.5 where you can select them and manipulate them in ways that are fundamentally the same as what is happening in FCPX.

Simon Ubsdell
Director/Editor/Writer
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


Return to posts index

David Lawrence
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 10, 2011 at 8:41:48 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "Again, this is clearly true in Media Composer as well, as is made much clearer in MC 5.5 where you can select them and manipulate them in ways that are fundamentally the same as what is happening in FCPX."

Agreed. but in MC, they're basically invisible unless you decide you need to use them for something. And you can turn timeline ripple mode off.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


Return to posts index


Simon Ubsdell
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 10, 2011 at 8:46:57 pm

[David Lawrence] "Agreed. but in MC, they're basically invisible unless you decide you need to use them for something."

Maybe it's because my cutting days actually go back to film, but I can't help feeling that gaps ("slug" as they used to be known!) are a useful tool, rather than something to be fought against ;-)

Simon Ubsdell
Director/Editor/Writer
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 10, 2011 at 9:30:44 pm

[David Lawrence] "Why? Because the timeline is rippling under the lifted gap. If the Position Tool automatically creates gaps when you move a clip object, why wouldn't it also create gaps when you move a gap object? To my mind, this is inconsistent behavior."

Kinda? FCPX is assuming that you are using the position tool to create a gap, but if you are grabbing a gap, it assumes you want to ripple timeline the length of that gap. There's better ways to move a gap around. Copy/paste being the easiest. I would suggest to rename the position tool the gap tool, but that would undermine it's flexibility.


Return to posts index

David Lawrence
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 11, 2011 at 5:40:00 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "FCPX is assuming that you are using the position tool to create a gap"

Is it assuming I want to create a gap or is it assuming I want to position whatever I've selected anywhere I want on the timeline? Those are two different things, right? I'm using it to position objects on the timeline. Gaps and clips are both objects so shouldn't it treat them the same?

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


Return to posts index


Bill Davis
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 10, 2011 at 7:53:18 pm

This is overly simplistic I know...

However, if one of the coders in FCP-X simply wrote a call to CoreGraphics and let you switch the appearance setting metadata tags of all your gap clips to "transparent" you'd have exactly the same visual representation in the FCP-X timeline that you do in Legacy, wouldn't you?

What you wouldn't have is the ability to tie those gaps to ANYTHING. They are just mostly useless forced pictures of time representation - which, while comforting for all of us conditioned to "see" time in the traditional timeline representation - really have no practical function beyond acting as "visual comfort food"

As "gap cliips" one could presumably write some code to "return aggregate time of all gaps in my project" and other DB functions that might be very useful at some point.

Essentially I'm saying that the difference between viewing a particular timeline aspect as a discrete "thing" or as "not a thing" is a primary concept. I can do something with a "thing." I can't do much with a "not a thing." comforting as it may be visually.

(thanks for indulging me - it was kinda fun to write that last paragraph!)

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 10, 2011 at 8:12:45 pm

Great, post David. My question to you.

The position tool, when grabbing any "object" as you call it, leaves a gap, so why move a gap to replace it with a gap? There is a flaw in the movie, and there is certainly looks to be a bug. It looks at first blush to me that FCPX is wrongfully assuming something (go figure) or is it? :-D

The flaw: If you grab that gap and really move it out of the way, the timeline ripples accordingly by the amount of time that is that is the gap (not just simply move it up, but actually pick it up and move it to a different place). If you grab a video object, it is replaced with a gap, and the timeline does not ripple. So the position tool assumes that you know what you are doing, in that you are essentially trying to replace a gap, with a gap, and it's getting confused. Or is it?

The bug?: You move it just a little bit, and it will ripple the timeline to the amount of the space you are trying to move. But if you move the gap completely out of the way, the timeline ripples correctly. What seems to be happening here is that FCPX is assuming you want to position that gap by overwriting the timeline, that's what you can do with a video object, position right where you want, overwriting anything in the way. So it is actually assuming correctly, and it thinks you want to do that, overwrite the position (and create a ripple with a gap clip in this case). Perhaps what it is wrongfully assuming is that you would want to replace that gap with a new gap of the same length. I think FCPX is assuming that this is a goofy way to do things, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't do it (why not just copy and paste that gap? Something you CAN"T do in FCP7, you cannot copy and place empty space. This is why I like gaps, they are way more flexible and allow much more control than space, including exactly how long that space is in time). This is an interface choice that could easily be fixed, but I'm not sure it should be if you know how to use the tool "correctly". I think they would need to fix it to protect people from using it incorrectly, which happens, just look at clip collisions.

Hopefully I can make a movie of this, but I would encourage you to try this on a video clip and watch exactly what it is the position tool does, then rethink what it's doing with a gap clip especailly when it relates to the position tool.

[David Lawrence] "Instead, the Position Tool simply acts as a workaround in the same way that the 10.0.1 update automatically creates secondary storylines when transitions are added to connected clips."

I'm sorry, I just don't find this to be true. The addition of the transition to connected clips is a script (add transition key = make secondary + add transition). The position tool is not a script action, but actually is a tool of intent. "Move this clip to where I want, do not ripple timeline, overwrite anything that is the length of my selected clip at the destination. If the clip I am moving is a gap clip, then overwrite right were I stand" (and then ripple, because why the hell would I use a position tool on a gap?). The movie you pointed out is sort of buggish, kinda.

[David Lawrence] "In FCPX, space in no longer space. Space is now an object."

Therefore by definition, much more controllable. The a trackless world, you need this control. They are also easily trimmable, you can connect clips to them and move them (in case you wanted to move where your space is...in time/space).

[David Lawrence] "This means you must now manage all the negative space between your clips in addition to the clips themselves. For anyone like myself who depends on a spatial workflow, this is simply unacceptable."

Perhaps, but I don't see it as a hinderance, I guess. If I want to add space, I hit option-w to create gap, c to select it, control-d and a time (let's say hit "6." to make it 6 seconds). There it is. Make it 24 minutes if you want to. That space will always the same distance between your work area and your sketch area until you don't want it to be.

[David Lawrence] "In order to delete, you must insert space."

Yes. instead of delete, you back-delete (function delete on other keyboards, but also works on full keyboards), it's one key stroke difference and does the same thing. (I know, you say it doesn't, but space as an object makes sense to me).

[David Lawrence] "You're essentially being asked to perform the opposite action of your intention. You're training yourself to work backwards. Sure, you can learn to do it. But why? Does it make sense? Is it intuitive? Is it really a better way to think and work?"

I do think it forces you to think about what you're doing, not such a bad thing.

[David Lawrence] "We haven't gotten into tracks vs trackless or the trim tools yet!"

Yeah, the position tool is essential to the tracklessness as it does override the ripple when used as intended.

[David Lawrence] as quoting Michael Gissing "As broadcast dies sometime in the next decade, it might become a mature app and useful to my business. I resent Apple trying to engineer the demise of broadcast like they have with floppy drives and bluray, regardless of whether history eventual proves their point. "

Wasn't this supposed happen with firewire when tape become more of a generic data protocol? Did broadcast die? Why waste time on the obsolete (meaning why waste time developing FCP7 when they know it's not going to last)? In Michaels' argument, if there was an OMF export, FCPX would then be viable.

[David Lawrence] "Yep. That sounds about right to me. But it's still fun dissecting this thing and learning what it is, what it can do and how it changes our industry."

Agreed!

Thanks for keeping this going.

Jeremy


Return to posts index

David Lawrence
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 11, 2011 at 6:12:34 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "You move it just a little bit, and it will ripple the timeline to the amount of the space you are trying to move. But if you move the gap completely out of the way, the timeline ripples correctly."

So, getting back to the title of this topic, can we agree that that particular issue is settled? ;)

[Jeremy Garchow] "I think FCPX is assuming that this is a goofy way to do things, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't do it (why not just copy and paste that gap? Something you CAN"T do in FCP7, you cannot copy and place empty space. This is why I like gaps, they are way more flexible and allow much more control than space, including exactly how long that space is in time). This is an interface choice that could easily be fixed, but I'm not sure it should be if you know how to use the tool "correctly". I think they would need to fix it to protect people from using it incorrectly, which happens, just look at clip collisions."

I've done more tests and agree with your analysis. As you move a gap with the position tool, the timeline assumes you intend to remove it and immediately ripples the length of the gap. This is a dangerous behavior and should absolutely be changed. I'll post a new video in the next day or so to clearly demonstrate why.

[Jeremy Garchow] "The position tool is not a script action, but actually is a tool of intent. "

Right, isn't the intent to position objects in time without rippling? Why treat gap objects differently from clip objects?

[Jeremy Garchow] "Make it 24 minutes if you want to. That space will always the same distance between your work area and your sketch area until you don't want it to be."

Until you accidentally bump it while working with the position tool and your sketch area outside your window view disappears. ;)

[Jeremy Garchow] "I do think it forces you to think about what you're doing, not such a bad thing."

I don't mind thinking, but I do like my tools to make sense.

[Jeremy Garchow] "Yeah, the position tool is essential to the tracklessness as it does override the ripple when used as intended."

Yes, but needs to gracefully default to non-destructive behavior when used creatively.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


Return to posts index


Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 11, 2011 at 12:10:31 pm

[David Lawrence] "So, getting back to the title of this topic, can we agree that that particular issue is settled? ;)"

Mmm. It's a grey area. I do think that FCPX would have to protect the users from themselves. That's entirely fine. As it stands now, the user needs to be aware of what happens when you use the position tool on a gap.

[David Lawrence] "Right, isn't the intent to position objects in time without rippling? Why treat gap objects differently from clip objects?"

Because the position tools usually leaves gaps when working with video clips. I agree with you, the behavior should be changed to protect the innocent.

[David Lawrence] "Yes, but needs to gracefully default to non-destructive behavior when used creatively."
That's not the job of the position tool. That's the job of the magnetic timeline. The position tools overwrites. It is a tool of intent.


Return to posts index

David Lawrence
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 11, 2011 at 8:19:49 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Mmm. It's a grey area. "

Do you mean you're still on the fence regarding whether the position tool disables ripple mode on the timeline? That's the argument people have been making since June. I think I've shown definitive proof this is not true.

[Jeremy Garchow] "That's not the job of the position tool. That's the job of the magnetic timeline. The position tools overwrites. It is a tool of intent."

Yes, overwrite. This is not the same as disabling ripple. That's my point. If there were a toggle switch on the timeline to disable ripple, we wouldn't need a position tool. That's why I consider it a workaround.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 11, 2011 at 8:28:49 pm

[David Lawrence] "o you mean you're still on the fence regarding whether the position tool disables ripple mode on the timeline? That's the argument people have been making since June. I think I've shown definitive proof this is not true."

I think your perspective is very limited. Do this with a video clip, and you will see. There is no ripple. And as Andy mentioned, you hold option, and there is no ripple when grabbing a gap.

[David Lawrence] "Yes, overwrite. This is not the same as disabling ripple. That's my point. If there were a toggle switch on the timeline to disable ripple, we wouldn't need a position tool. That's why I consider it a workaround."

I'm confused here.

The position tool positions the clip where you want it in time and overwrites what's there. If you don't want to overwrite, why don't you just move the clip where you want it with the selection tool keeping everything else in time around it?

Jeremy


Return to posts index

David Lawrence
Re: Why You Would Use the Position Tool On A Gap
on Oct 12, 2011 at 1:26:29 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "I think your perspective is very limited. Do this with a video clip, and you will see. There is no ripple. And as Andy mentioned, you hold option, and there is no ripple when grabbing a gap."

I think I have a pretty strong grasp of what's going on here.

I'm really surprised so many of you don't see why you'd want to use the position tool to move a gap. Here's a very simple example:







This is a very typical J/L-cut scenario with multiple audio sources. The connected clips are connected to the gap because that creates the correct sync relationship between them. All I want to do is move this connected group by a few frames or so to fix the pacing. I don't care about overwriting the primary. I can't use the select tool and holding down the option key doesn't help. The position tool is supposed to let you place objects anywhere you want so I use the position tool. I think this is a totally reasonable thing to want to do based on the tool's intended purpose. If you disagree, please explain.

Sorry Guys, I can't give Apple a pass on this. Destructive behavior like you see in the video is not OK. If it's not a bug it is without question a design, implementation, and QA failure. I'll be very curious to see if this gets fixed in the next release.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: Why You Would Use the Position Tool On A Gap
on Oct 12, 2011 at 2:01:11 am

[David Lawrence] "Sorry Guys, I can't give Apple a pass on this. Destructive behavior like you see in the video is not OK. If it's not a bug it is without question a design, implementation, and QA failure. I'll be very curious to see if this gets fixed in the next release."

Again, can't thank you enough for the example. It makes more sense now. In this case, yeah, I think Apple might want to protect the user. Point taken.

But of course, you have to hear me out. :)

Now, pretend that gap was a video clip, you couldn't do what you want to do either without losing a few frames on either the gap (now video) clip or the surrounding clips, so why not just trim the gap a few frames and be done? It keeps the relationship of the video above and audio below.

You could also add that audio below to the primary and connect the video to it. Expanding audio in the primary would allow you to overlap the audio like you have it now. You could even connect the middle blue layer to the gap to keep your cut point of the top most layer, but I can't see the rest of the timeline so perhaps that wouldn't work, so ymmv as the kids say.

Thank you, David, for keeping this going.

Jeremy


Return to posts index

Andy Yoong
Re: Why You Would Use the Position Tool On A Gap
on Oct 12, 2011 at 5:56:20 am

[David Lawrence] "This is a very typical J/L-cut scenario with multiple audio sources. The connected clips are connected to the gap because that creates the correct sync relationship between them. All I want to do is move this connected group by a few frames or so to fix the pacing."

I can think of a few simple other ways of achieve what you are trying to do.

1. Change the point at where the clips are connected by holding down command+option and clicking to a position not on the gap

2. Make the clips a compound clip and then change the connection position by command+option clicking.

3. More of your connected clips could be put into a secondary story line and the positioned within that storyline.

Hopefully this helps


Return to posts index

Andy Neil
Re: Why You Would Use the Position Tool On A Gap
on Oct 12, 2011 at 6:35:20 am

[David Lawrence] "The position tool is supposed to let you place objects anywhere you want so I use the position tool. I think this is a totally reasonable thing to want to do based on the tool's intended purpose. If you disagree, please explain."

I agree that the position tool should behave the same with gaps as it does with regular clips. That would keep confusion to a minimum. As I stated elsewhere, I've asked as a feature request that gaps be treated exactly like any other generator clip. However, since they currently are not...

There is an extremely easy way to do the operation you're looking to do by using the trim keys.

Select your gap clip. Use the "<" and ">" keys to move the gap forward or backward by one frame in the storyline. Hold SHIFT to increase the movement to 10 frames at a time. If attaching clips to gaps is something you do often in FCPX, I would encourage you to use this shortcut as it works great.

Andy

http://www.timesavertutorials.com


Return to posts index

Simon Ubsdell
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 10, 2011 at 8:27:01 pm

[David Lawrence] "In FCPX, space in no longer space. Space is now an object.

This means you must now manage all the negative space between your clips in addition to the clips themselves. For anyone like myself who depends on a spatial workflow, this is simply unacceptable.

Consider is how unintuitive things quickly become. Here's a simple example:

On an open timeline, if I want to delete a clip or a range, I simply select and delete. In FCPX, a simple delete aways ripples by default. If I don't want to ripple, I must insert a gap.

Think about that for a second in terms of intention and required action.

In order to delete, you must insert space."


As always this you make some fascinating points - I just wanted to observe that maybe we are dealing with semantics here.

Consider this from the Media Composer manual:

When you use the Lift/Overwrite tool, the application adds filler to the sequence to maintain sync.

Isn't it possibly the case that what we are sseeing in FCPX is just a more explicit representation of something that has always been happening in other NLE's without our being actively aware of it?

Simon Ubsdell
Director/Editor/Writer
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


Return to posts index

Franz Bieberkopf
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 10, 2011 at 10:38:25 pm

David,

Thanks for this.

To me this illustrates the limiting paradigm that FCPX is built on.

It seems to assume that a timeline is something similar to a videotape (or film strip) - ie something that is intended to be watched from beginning to end, and therefore all frames must be "accounted for" in terms of black or silence, etc.

An "open timeline" paradigm is looser. It allows that while the above (videotape or filmstrip) will be the desired result (at the end of an edit), timelines can also operate as scratchpads or work areas - ie not all frames have to be "accounted for". (The software even helpfully just plays black and silence if you happen to press play over one of these areas bereft of media or instruction - it's a helpful interpretation).

Interesting. Not sure why FCPX would limit timelines in such a way. (Further exemplified by the one timeline per project thinking).

Franz.


Return to posts index

Mark Morache
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 11, 2011 at 1:09:12 am

[David Lawrence] "Notice what happens to the clips to the right of the gap. They ripple. And the clip to the immediate right of the gap gets eaten. That's the bug."

Interesting, but I don't think it's a bug, but rather an interesting anomaly. I think it was pointed out that with the Position tool, you can select a gap and move it left and right, and it will move predictably, except that moving the gap doesn't leave a gap. It sort of makes sense. If you wanted the gap there, why would you move it?

Lifting the gap with the Position tool would make sense if you want to move the gap above the primary storyline, but that's not logical. You can have gap in a secondary storyline to leave space between clips, but you can't have a gap clip connected directly above another clip.

Wanting to move the gap with the position tool, to move a gap and leave gap, might be as useful as wanting to divide by zero. If you want to make new gap somewhere, it's quite easy to do, without moving a different gap.

Is nothing actually something? If nothing was nothing, why would there be a word to describe it? Nothing must be something, and if it's actually something, why call it nothing?

Using space for organization. Like you, I use space for organizing. In FCP7 I group things on my timeline separated by space. It's like a clothing designer laying pieces of fabric out on a large table. They don't need the pieces to stick together until they're ready to sew.

I don't mind the gap in FCX. I'm glad that I can move it around as I need to. I can extend it with a ripple trim. I can change the duration of it with a few keystrokes. I can cut it, and replace it.

What I don't like is, well, just about everything.

I believe that tracks in FCP7 are very easy to understand. You place a clip on V2, and it will cover up anything on V1. Place a dissolve between two clips on V2, and you will get a dissolve. It doesn't take a master's degree in editing to understand this.

FCX however has many more options, and not in a good way. When do I connect a clip? When do I place the connected clips in a secondary storyline? When do I place my b-roll in the primary storyline by overwriting to the primary storyline? Why can't I use composite modes in a secondary storyline? When do I nest things inside a compound clip?

To make trims in complicated, layered timeline takes some skill. It's really not easier in FCX when you have L cuts and many layers.

It is a whole lot easier to "unpack" the layers to make the trims in FCP7, because they are all visible. If I want to trim a soundbite to remove "ums" and "ahs" I can easily remove the unwanted bits of audio and remove the space between bits. I think this takes more thinking in FCX, because the audio doesn't live on a timeline by itself, it's connected to other things.

I'm not sure I'm being entirely clear, but I don't think the magnetic timeline is useful. I've been using it almost exclusively since June 21, and I can make my way through it alright, but it's still awkward.

My take is that the magnetic timeline is someone's intellectual theory about an alternative way of editing, and not really the next big thing. Now comes all the add-ons and workarounds to try to make this albatross work, when there really was nothing wrong with the original editing paradigm.

Give me the keywords, the metadata, the ability to edit native h264 files, the skimmer, the motion effects, the logic effects in the timeline, the color tools, the timeline index, the ability to filter bins by typing in a search field, and all the other cool things about FCX, but for God's sake, give me back my tracks.

Was that clear?

---------
FCX. She tempts me, abuses me, beats me up, makes me feel worthless, then in the end she comes around, helps me get my work done, gives me hope and I can't stop thinking about her.

Mark Morache
Avid/Xpri/FCP7/FCX
Evening Magazine,Seattle, WA
http://fcpx.wordpress.com


Return to posts index

David Lawrence
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 11, 2011 at 5:31:45 am

[Mark Morache] "Was that clear?"

Great post, Mark and crystal clear. I'll answer you and everyone else after a short break. Stay tuned...

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


Return to posts index

Andy Neil
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 11, 2011 at 3:32:33 pm

Regarding your video David:

What Mark said is correct. You can't have a gap as a connected clip, and so, using the position tool on one acts precisely the same as it does when moving a regular clip horizontally in the timeline: it overwrites whatever it's placed over. However, if you find you've accidentally grabbed a gap you can hold down the Option key and it will double the gap (create a duplicate) instead of overwriting your timeline.

Andy

http://www.timesavertutorials.com


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 11, 2011 at 3:38:32 pm

First of all, nice one, Andy. Hold option.

And you can have a gap connected to a gap, but it has to be in a secondary storyline.


Return to posts index

Andy Neil
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 11, 2011 at 3:52:50 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "And you can have a gap connected to a gap, but it has to be in a secondary storyline."

I disagree. It's semantics I know, but in that scenario it's the secondary storyline that is connected, not the gap.

You cannot create a secondary storyline with only a gap. You must first create the storyline from a clip and then add a gap and delete the clip. Once that's done, if you Break Apart Clip Items, the gap inside the secondary storyline simply disappears.

Andy

http://www.timesavertutorials.com


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 11, 2011 at 3:58:19 pm

[Andy Neil] "You cannot create a secondary storyline with only a gap. You must first create the storyline from a clip and then add a gap and delete the clip. Once that's done, if you Break Apart Clip Items, the gap inside the secondary storyline simply disappears."

Yes, I hear you. But you can have a gap above a gap.

You can also use the position tool in a connected secondary storyline to create a gap in the secondary.

Pic:



Jeremy


Return to posts index

Andy Neil
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 11, 2011 at 4:02:34 pm

I wasn't debating that. I said simply that a gap cannot be a connected clip. That is why the position tool acts as it does when you attempt to move the gap above the primary storyline. It was an explanation of the behavior David was seeing in his video. I wasn't debating the merits of having a gap above the primary storyline.

Andy

http://www.timesavertutorials.com


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 11, 2011 at 4:03:54 pm

All good, Andy. It's all good...


Return to posts index

Andy Neil
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 11, 2011 at 4:51:08 pm

Personally, I've asked (in a feature request) to have gaps behave exactly as regular clips, and even have a gap clip generator in the generators tab (FCPX treats gaps as a generator in function). Then you could use the position tool to lift a gap into a connected clip if you want. Why? Because then you could use it like an adjustment layer for effects.

I know you can create your own adjustment layer workaround with a published title project in Motion, but to me this is a more intuitive solution as it mimics Avid in that fashion.

Andy

http://www.timesavertutorials.com


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 11, 2011 at 4:52:43 pm

Another good one.


Return to posts index

Simon Ubsdell
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 11, 2011 at 5:37:10 pm

[Andy Neil] "Personally, I've asked (in a feature request) to have gaps behave exactly as regular clips, and even have a gap clip generator in the generators tab (FCPX treats gaps as a generator in function). Then you could use the position tool to lift a gap into a connected clip if you want. Why? Because then you could use it like an adjustment layer for effects."

Great idea!!!!!

Simon Ubsdell
Director/Editor/Writer
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


Return to posts index

David Cherniack
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 11, 2011 at 5:18:15 pm

Guys,

I'm sure this all makes sense if you're using FCPx but if you're not do you realize how completely, insanely, complicated this dialogue sounds. Like out of some bizarre alternate universe.

The one thing about the fixed track timeline is that it's simple, spatially one to one intuitive, and does not require a gap object (MC and FCP may have versions, but Premiere, edit*, EMC, and any other NLE I know of do not). Space in such a timeline is not a negative gap object. It is simply space, the absence of an object. The gap object appears to me to be necessary by-product of the magnetic aspect of the FCPx timeline. It makes sense only within the context of the magnetic paradigm. The real question is whether the magnetic paradigm itself makes sense in this market. I don't believe we'll know that for some years to come when we see whether Apple can build any additional intelligence into it that makes it more efficient for editing complex projects or so simple that it can be picked up by all the non-editors out there to edit their home videos. Right now it seems about as revolutionary as the Ford Edsel...someone's bright idea for shifting gears that sounded good at the time, but didn't fundamentally improve anything, despite all its supporters claiming it was a game changer.

The other thing to be mindful of is that Apple has not announced any sales figures for X...perhaps as good an indication as any that the new paradigm is not catching on like wildfire. It raises the question whether the pro-apps division, much reduced in products of late, can continue to survive.

David
AllinOneFilms.com


Return to posts index

Andy Neil
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 11, 2011 at 5:40:10 pm

[David Cherniack] "do you realize how completely, insanely, complicated this dialogue sounds. Like out of some bizarre alternate universe."

No it doesn't. Honestly, I don't see what's so difficult to understand. Gap clips make sense to me completely. They are not to be feared but rather a tool to be used.

Do you know what I found virtually useless? Slug in FCP 7. Now THAT was a ridiculous concept.

I see the magnetic timeline as merely a reversal of the previous timeline conceit. At the end of an edit, you are not going to want any gaps or black flashes, so the magnetic timeline exists to prevent that. In FCP 7, you have to manually remove gaps to ensure there are no black frames. In FCPX you have manually add them if you want them. Doing it one way is no easier or harder than doing it the other way in my opinion.

People learned to work the way that David Lawrence showed above because of the nature of non-magnetic timeline. The timeline wasn't created to suit the workflow. Therefore, new workflows will emerge which make use of how the magnetic timeline is set up.

What was wrong with the old way? Nothing. I don't have a problem working either way. My manner of cutting differs in FCPX from FCP7. But then again, my manner of cutting differs in Avid from FCP7 as well. I don't find the magnetic timeline non-intuitive any more than I find FCP7's shortcuts non-intuitive compared to Avid.

Andy

http://www.timesavertutorials.com


Return to posts index

David Cherniack
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 11, 2011 at 5:52:52 pm

[Andy Neil] "I see the magnetic timeline as merely a reversal of the previous timeline conceit. At the end of an edit, you are not going to want any gaps or black flashes, so the magnetic timeline exists to prevent that."

Andy, if you're seeing gaps like blank frames I can understand why you think they're great. I'm not. Gaps for me are the 'quiet' spaces between clips on audio tracks and the 'covered' spaces on lower video tracks. They're the absence of objects.

As I said I'm sure the dialogue about gaps makes sense to you guys who are actually using (and attempting to use) the program. From outside the ecosystem it just sounds like the talk you'd hear in any engineering conclave...or among monkeys at the zoo...not that there's any comparison intended :)

David
AllinOneFilms.com


Return to posts index

Simon Ubsdell
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 11, 2011 at 5:42:50 pm

[David Cherniack] "Space in such a timeline is not a negative gap object. It is simply space, the absence of an object."

I've mentioned this before but Media Composer in fact has always treated what you are calling "space" as gaps, so this isn't something radically new in FCPX.

In MC you can make cuts in the gaps (AVID call it "filler"), you can add effects to them (very useful for effects that apply to a whole timeline like crops etc.), you can edit gaps into the timeline to shift other stuff out of the way, you can even accidentally move with them the Segment tool and overwrite other clips. Generally it's a pretty useful way of working tnhat doesn't feel at all counter-intuitive - so if legions of traditional editors can cope with it in MC, why not in FCPX?

I'm not at all sure that gaps are really that much of an issue - which is not to say that there aren't other issues.

Simon Ubsdell
Director/Editor/Writer
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


Return to posts index

David Cherniack
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 11, 2011 at 5:57:55 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "I've mentioned this before but Media Composer in fact has always treated what you are calling "space" as gaps, so this isn't something radically new in FCPX."

Yes I acknowledged that in my post. But it isn't true of other NLEs, as I mentioned.

I think the problem that others are finding with gaps in X is that theyre a more functional part of the magnetic timeline than in MC...seemingly to keep all the rippling behaviour copacetic.

David
AllinOneFilms.com


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 11, 2011 at 6:05:49 pm

[David Cherniack] "I think the problem that others are finding with gaps in X is that theyre a more functional part of the magnetic timeline than in MC...seemingly to keep all the rippling behaviour copacetic."

They sound very similar to me except people have forgiven Avid for their shortcomings already so the venom is a lot less vile.


Return to posts index

David Cherniack
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 11, 2011 at 6:11:36 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "people have forgiven Avid for their shortcomings already so the venom is a lot less vile."

There's something to be applauded about longevity. Look at Betty White. Some get a standing O just for being alive.

David
AllinOneFilms.com


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 11, 2011 at 6:27:00 pm

[David Cherniack] "There's something to be applauded about longevity. Look at Betty White. Some get a standing O just for being alive"

Ha! It wasn't for her humor?

My point was, Avid used to be hated on, and now they are forgiven. Longevity was almost not in the cards for them. FCPX has given them new hope, they've even gone so far as to say they will never change the interface ever. Good luck with that, I say.


Return to posts index

Michael Hancock
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 11, 2011 at 6:38:42 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "My point was, Avid used to be hated on, and now they are forgiven."

Because they had become an arrogant company, not because they made a poor product. Media Composer was and still is an incredibly efficient and capable program, and it's improved by leaps and bounds over the last few years. It's not the program you used in the 90s, even if the interface is 90% the same.


[Jeremy Garchow] " they've even gone so far as to say they will never change the interface ever. "

Where did they say this? And if the interface works and the users of Avid products like it, why should they change it? Update it, maybe, but change for the sake of change isn't always a good thing.

----------------
Michael Hancock
Editor


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 11, 2011 at 6:43:34 pm

[Michael Hancock] "Where did they say this?"

It was at the big Avid event after the FCPX release. I will find it. It got a huge cheer from the audience.

[Michael Hancock] "Update it, maybe, but change for the sake of change isn't always a good thing."

I totally agree. It just said to me that they still really don't care. The hard decisions hurt at times.


Return to posts index

Michael Hancock
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 11, 2011 at 6:48:21 pm

I believe they said they would not remove features. There's a huge difference between not removing features and not updating the interface.

They showed a still of what might be the updated interface - very similar to the current one but with a new, more modern skin and what looks like improvements. http://www.advancehdtv.com/index.php/item/avid-media-composer-6.html

I'd need to see a video or hear an audio clip or press release to believe they specifically stated they would never change the interface.

----------------
Michael Hancock
Editor


Return to posts index

Andy Neil
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 11, 2011 at 6:51:22 pm

[Michael Hancock] "They showed a still of what might be the updated interface - very similar to the current one but with a new, more modern skin and what looks like improvements. http://www.advancehdtv.com/index.php/item/avid-media-composer-6.html"

Ugh. Too many buttons. Geez Avid, just give me the ability to map shortcuts to the Option, and CMD keys and cool it with all the damn buttons. You're starting to look like Premiere.

Andy

PS: Love the Smart Tool.

http://www.timesavertutorials.com


Return to posts index

Michael Hancock
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 11, 2011 at 6:54:56 pm

[Andy Neil] "cool it with all the damn buttons. You're starting to look like Premiere.

Andy

PS: Love the Smart Tool."


LOL! I hate the smart tool! I like the way FCP moves clips around and Avid's smart tool just isn't as fluid.

Regarding buttons, you can turn off most of those buttons - they're interface options. I never had double rows of buttons on my source/record and leave most of them in my timeline blank. Having the option to map Cmd and Alt would be kind of nice though.

Premiere's buttons are out of control.

----------------
Michael Hancock
Editor


Return to posts index

Simon Ubsdell
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 11, 2011 at 6:57:14 pm

[Andy Neil] "Ugh. Too many buttons. Geez Avid, just give me the ability to map shortcuts to the Option, and CMD keys and cool it with all the damn buttons. You're starting to look like Premiere."

Agreed - that looks like far worse of an abomination than anything in FCPX. What are they thinking!!! Boy, does it look cluttered and messy.

Simon Ubsdell
Director/Editor/Writer
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


Return to posts index

David Cherniack
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 11, 2011 at 9:50:57 pm

[Andy Neil] "You're starting to look like Premiere."

Yep, this is a long standing bone that many pick with PPro. I'm sure the Adobe folks are aware of it by now.

David
AllinOneFilms.com


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 11, 2011 at 6:59:02 pm

[Michael Hancock] "I'd need to see a video or hear an audio clip or press release to believe they specifically stated they would never change the interface."

Found it. It's about 2:20 in.

http://apps.avid.com/getmc/video-brbnk/?elq_mid=4656&elq_cid=4433

Jeremy


Return to posts index

Michael Hancock
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 11, 2011 at 7:08:43 pm

C'mon Jeremy - that's a blatant jab at FCPX.

This event was less than a month after the release of FCPX and people were pissed about the magnetic timeline, the loss of tracks, the loss of a source monitor, and Apple telling them they've reinvented editing.

Avid is telling their customers they aren't going to pull an Apple. That's what people wanted to hear, and in this case I don't think they're wrong. Only time will ultimately tell if Apple's new editing paradigm is a winner or not, but consider Avid's dominant market - feature films. They're reassuring their customers that they aren't going to change everything they know overnight and try to force them into a new way of working.

Besides, with sync lock you kind of get a magnetic timeline. In many ways FCPX and Media Composer are very similar. In other ways, they're night and day different. I wish I could mash them together and pick the best parts of both.

----------------
Michael Hancock
Editor


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 11, 2011 at 7:17:58 pm

[Michael Hancock] "C'mon Jeremy - that's a blatant jab at FCPX.

This event was less than a month after the release of FCPX and people were pissed about the magnetic timeline, the loss of tracks, the loss of a source monitor, and Apple telling them they've reinvented editing.

Avid is telling their customers they aren't going to pull an Apple. That's what people wanted to hear, and in this case I don't think they're wrong. Only time will ultimately tell if Apple's new editing paradigm is a winner or not, but consider Avid's dominant market - feature films. They're reassuring their customers that they aren't going to change everything they know overnight and try to force them into a new way of working. "


I agree, it was an easy jab on FCPX. I also agree that time will tell. As far as introducing a new way of working, like I said, the hard decisions may hurt at first. Time will tell if it will be a lasting pain.

[Michael Hancock] "I wish I could mash them together and pick the best parts of both."

Yep. I think everyone would want their dream editor. Lightworks is a step in that direction with their open source model. That will be the true democratization if it works and garners support.

Jeremy


Return to posts index

Michael Hancock
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 11, 2011 at 7:21:33 pm

Have you played with Lightworks? If so, what are your thoughts on it?

I downloaded the beta the day it went up and it crashed constantly so I haven't tried it again - I assume it's made some improvements though. When I worked at a TV station that had one the guys that ran it loved it. They were fast with it too. It died before I had a chance to give it a go.

----------------
Michael Hancock
Editor


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 11, 2011 at 7:24:15 pm

[Michael Hancock] "Have you played with Lightworks? If so, what are your thoughts on it?"

I haven't yet. I am waiting for a Mac beta (I can't make the leap to another OS quite yet. We have a Windows server and it's so very clumsy, but I'm weird).

My thoughts that if it works and gets hardware support and all that works as well, it will be a very interesting option. I am looking forward to seeing what will come of it. I really love the open source idea of it.

I should add, that the screen grabs look like a bunch of floating windows, a la M100. that was annoying, but it does look like they have some sort of tab system at the top, as long as there's a method to the madness, I'll try whatever. I will reserve any judgement until I can touch it.

Jeremy


Return to posts index

Simon Ubsdell
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 11, 2011 at 6:11:10 pm

[David Cherniack] "Yes I acknowledged that in my post. But it isn't true of other NLEs, as I mentioned.

I think the problem that others are finding with gaps in X is that theyre a more functional part of the magnetic timeline than in MC...seemingly to keep all the rippling behaviour copacetic."


Yes, I was only talking about Media Composer but the point I was trying to make is that MC has been around forever and nobody has found its implementation of gaps/filler to be an issue.

Maybe it's because my cutting days started back with 35mm/16mm I've always found the notion of "gaps"/slug/filler having the property of physical objects to be an entirely natural and helpful one.

Other than the fact that other clips can be connected to them I don't see FCPX gaps as being in any significant way different from those in MC - in some ways they could do with being more like actual objects. It would be a real bonus if you could add effects to them as you can in Media Composer.

Simon Ubsdell
Director/Editor/Writer
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


Return to posts index

David Cherniack
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 11, 2011 at 6:15:59 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] ". It would be a real bonus if you could add effects to them as you can in Media Composer."

You mean like an adjustment layer?

David
AllinOneFilms.com


Return to posts index

Simon Ubsdell
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 11, 2011 at 6:19:36 pm

[David Cherniack] "You mean like an adjustment layer?"

Yes, Andy Neil made this suggestion here and it's a good one:

http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/17623

Simon Ubsdell
Director/Editor/Writer
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


Return to posts index

David Roth Weiss
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 11, 2011 at 5:48:46 pm

[David Cherniack] "I'm sure this all makes sense if you're using FCPx but if you're not do you realize how completely, insanely, complicated this dialogue sounds. Like out of some bizarre alternate universe."

I was reading the line below and thinking exactly the same thing.

[Andy Neil] "You cannot create a secondary storyline with only a gap. You must first create the storyline from a clip and then add a gap and delete the clip. Once that's done, if you Break Apart Clip Items, the gap inside the secondary storyline simply disappears.
"


David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 11, 2011 at 5:54:43 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "I was reading the line below and thinking exactly the same thing."

Really, guys, it's just a language. Every program has it. If you aren't familiar with it, it sounds foreign. When people explain segment mode in Avid, I gloss. I have no idea what it means. 15 minutes with the FCPX timeline and you would have at least a cursory knowledge of what a secondary storyline is, as I'm sure I would in Avid, or maybe not? I haven't used Avid since the 90s and plan to stay that way if at all possible.


Return to posts index

David Cherniack
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 11, 2011 at 6:07:24 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Really, guys, it's just a language"

I wish there were such a thing as 'just a language'. Then my wife would not be giving me a dirty look when I say "I'll scrub that pot tomorrow." Language reflects thought. Thought reflects disposition. Disposition reflects attitude. Attitude reflects politic. Politic reflects ideation. Ideation reflects attachmnent. In other words we're in the crapper every time we open our mouths. The only way out is poetry. Gaps is not poetry.

David
AllinOneFilms.com


Return to posts index

David Roth Weiss
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 11, 2011 at 6:19:53 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Really, guys, it's just a language. Every program has it. If you aren't familiar with it, it sounds foreign. When people explain segment mode in Avid, I gloss. I have no idea what it means. 15 minutes with the FCPX timeline and you would have at least a cursory knowledge of what a secondary storyline is, as I'm sure I would in Avid, or maybe not? I haven't used Avid since the 90s and plan to stay that way if at all possible.
"


To a certain point I would agree with your analysis above Jeremy. However, this also speaks to a fundamental flaw of FCP X, which is that it has been created in a relative vacuum, which not only abandons previous convention, but completely ignores and even disrespects it's reason for being.

I go very deep into this subject in an article I'm writing, so I really can't go into the matter here. But, I can assure you, there are loads of respected people in the business who have very definitive ideas on this subject.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new Creative Cow Podcast: Bringing "The Whale" to the Big Screen:
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/Podcast-Series-2-MikeParfit...

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 11, 2011 at 6:31:35 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "I go very deep into this subject in an article I'm writing, so I really can't go into the matter here. But, I can assure you, there are loads of respected people in the business who have very definitive ideas on this subject."

Looking forward to it.

For once I might not be editing on the same system that was used to make Cold Mountain. The pressure is now off that I don't have to make a feature film every time I sit down to edit a 30 second spot. Phew! :) That was a snide joke.

I do think that FCPX's language is still being written. It's not done. It's fine if "respected people" want to dismiss it now, but I'd like to hang around and see what's going to come.


Return to posts index

Neil Goodman
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 11, 2011 at 7:35:42 pm

i think everyones is missing the point. In FCPX - you need to use gaps. You dont really have a chopice and its definately a workaround for the locked ripple timeline . Thats the main problem is that Apple for some reason thinks we all want to work in ripple mode all he time.

In MC and FCP 7, filler and slugs are jsut there, use them or dont, they dont get in your way and are not a necessity to use. Could you imagine FCP x w/o them? I wouldnt want to.

And for those baggin on Media Composers interface ? Seriously ? Buttons can be hidden, and pretty much everything is customizable. Sure it looks old, but its a tried and tested interface thats worked for years , why change it ?

Neil Goodman: Editor of New Media Production - NBC/Universal


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 11, 2011 at 7:43:15 pm

[Neil Goodman] "You dont really have a chopice and its definately a workaround for the locked ripple timeline ."

A workaround? Or a way to work? In my opinion, there's no reason to work around the ripple if you you know how and when to use it or not. You need gaps, and they are more flexible than empty space.

[Neil Goodman] "In MC and FCP 7, filler and slugs are jsut there, use them or dont, they dont get in your way and are not a necessity to use."

It was my understanding that MC5.5 uses them regardless if you want to or not. In FCP7 they are simply dead air and hands off. You can only delete the space, or adjust the space by adjusting everything around it.

[Neil Goodman] "Sure it looks old, but its a tried and tested interface thats worked for years , why change it ?"

Why did they add the selection tools, then, or whatever they are called?


Return to posts index

Neil Goodman
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 12, 2011 at 12:05:37 am

as far as the selection tools, that doesnt really change the interface, it only adds the toolbar, to the already existing interface, and the tools are totally ignorable. They didnt remove an entire Source window and make the interface completely uncustomaizable.

Neil Goodman: Editor of New Media Production - NBC/Universal


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 12, 2011 at 12:19:20 am

[Neil Goodman] "as far as the selection tools, that doesnt really change the interface, it only adds the toolbar, to the already existing interface, and the tools are totally ignorable. They didnt remove an entire Source window and make the interface completely uncustomaizable."

All true.


Return to posts index

David Lawrence
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 11, 2011 at 8:07:58 pm

[Neil Goodman] "i think everyones is missing the point. In FCPX - you need to use gaps. You dont really have a chopice and its definately a workaround for the locked ripple timeline . Thats the main problem is that Apple for some reason thinks we all want to work in ripple mode all he time. "

Bingo. In FCP7 there are no gaps. The timeline is a wide open space. The only thing to think about is where you want to place your media clips in that space, which has a direct one-to-one mapping to time. It doesn't get any simpler or more intuitive. Any space between media clips is just space. You don't have to think about it. It plays black/silence until the next media object is encountered in time.

The beauty of FCP is that you can select this space and delete or close it if you choose to. This is smart, intuitive, and helpful. It's why I prefer FCP gap handling to Avid's. Space is space. But if you want to close it it's easy. If you need a solid object, use a slug.

MC's approach is interesting and I see the utility, even though I prefer FCP. The important thing is that you can ignore gaps if you don't need them.

FCPX on the other hand forces you to deal with gaps. They're the only thing keeping your timeline from collapsing in on itself -- oops, I mean rippling. ;)

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


Return to posts index

Jeremy Garchow
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 11, 2011 at 8:18:29 pm

[David Lawrence] "FCPX on the other hand forces you to deal with gaps. They're the only thing keeping your timeline from collapsing in on itself -- oops, I mean rippling. ;)"

So without the magnetic timeline, you don't need gaps. But there's a magnetic timeline, so you need them. They are a tool, and a decent one.


Return to posts index

Andy Neil
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 11, 2011 at 9:08:26 pm

[David Lawrence] "In FCP7 there are no gaps. The timeline is a wide open space. The only thing to think about is where you want to place your media clips in that space, which has a direct one-to-one mapping to time. It doesn't get any simpler or more intuitive."

How do you get your clips into an FCP7 timeline when you want gaps between sections? Most editors place the playhead a point down the timeline and then overwrite or insert a clip at that point. You can do the exact same thing, the exact same way in FCPX. You do NOT have to create a gap, or lay the clips next to each other and then move them apart. Just move the playhead or the skimmer further down the timeline and insert your clip. The gap will be created automatically. The result is exactly the same as FCP7.

If you're one of those editors who likes to drag and drop from the browser, then use the position tool, and drag and drop wherever you like. FCPX again makes the gap for you.

[David Lawrence] "The beauty of FCP is that you can select this space and delete or close it if you choose to. This is smart, intuitive, and helpful."

Again, FCPX works exactly the same. Just select the gap and delete it. Smart and intuitive, no? I don't really see how dealing with empty space is so much faster and easier than dealing with gap clips.

I feel like you're making the gap feature harder than it needs to be.

Andy

http://www.timesavertutorials.com


Return to posts index

Jim Giberti
Re: The Position Tool Does Not Disable Ripple Mode - Here's Why
on Oct 12, 2011 at 12:30:07 am

"Give me the keywords, the metadata, the ability to edit native h264 files, the skimmer, the motion effects, the logic effects in the timeline, the color tools, the timeline index, the ability to filter bins by typing in a search field, and all the other cool things about FCX, but for God's sake, give me back my tracks."

This would have been a good email from Steve Jobs to the FCPX development team after the first presentation.


Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2017 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]