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Anyone like the color board?

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andy lewis
Anyone like the color board?
on Sep 28, 2011 at 3:00:18 pm

Color was my favourite part of FCP3 and I loved the interface. The main thing I wanted from FCP8 was Color without round tripping. I've just done too many projects that needed editing changes after colour correction. I'm tired of frankenstein timelines from multiple Color exports. I've even gone back to the 3-way colour corrector for a recent project in FCP7.

So anyway, I've played with the color board and it seems horrendous. Any love for it out there? Does it make sense to anyone?

All this talk about FCPX trashing NLE terminology and UI conventions... What about dumping the 200-hundred-year-old colour wheel?

"Goethe's Theory of Colours provided the first systematic study of the physiological effects of color (1810). His observations on the effect of opposed colors led him to a symmetric arrangement of his color wheel, "for the colours diametrically opposed to each other… are those that reciprocally evoke each other in the eye." (Goethe, Theory of Colours, 1810 [8])"

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Color_wheel


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Brian Mulligan
Re: Anyone like the color board?
on Sep 28, 2011 at 3:21:51 pm

Didn't you hear... 'Apple reinvented the (color)wheel'

Brian Mulligan
Senior Editor - Autodesk Smoke
WTHR-TV Indianapolis,IN, USA
Twitter: @bkmeditor


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Craig Seeman
Re: Anyone like the color board?
on Sep 28, 2011 at 3:25:50 pm

This from Stu Maschwitz of RedGiant and professional colorist.
http://prolost.com/blog/2011/9/27/what-adobe-should-do-with-iridas-speedgra...

But moving a project to a dedicated color app is simply not the way of the future for most users. Apple has the right idea by killing Color and making color correction a native property of every clip in a FCP X timeline—even if those new color controls are—how should I say this—a Colorista opportunity.

This is important, so I’ll say it another way: Apple screwed up by making the FCP X “Color Board” less industry-standard (I mean sure, dream up a better way—but it has to actually be better), but their decision to make color controls part of the settings inherent to any clip in the timeline is spot-on.


Color Board is a problem but the idea of building it into each clip is not.



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Walter Soyka
Re: Anyone like the color board?
on Sep 28, 2011 at 4:39:50 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Color Board is a problem but the idea of building it into each clip is not."

Agreed. Conform hurts, but it's a necessary evil for using specialized tools. Avoiding conform where possible makes late change much easier.

Stu's "digital rebel" POV has historically been to use the general-purpose apps you have for as many purposes as possible, extending them out of their normal areas of responsibility to save money. That's a fine goal for many projects, but a dedicated app offers specific tools and workflows that general apps don't.

Personally, I'd rather attack the conform problem through greater cooperation among apps instead of piling everything into the NLE. I'd like to see more applications understand the edit in context, to reduce the need for round-tripping or conforming.

It'd be great to have an industry-standard editorial XML spec so that all apps could read the same editorial file format and read from the same media. The NLE could cut; the coloring app could grade; the DAW could sweeten. Each tool could be able to access the edit decisions and add rendered clips which the NLE would use to replace the original clips for playout/compression. Each app could each add its own private set of tags to clips, and every other app could ignore (but preserve) any tags it didn't understand.

In other words, one single project file and one single media pool that all applications could work with. It'd be nice if everyone could get along, wouldn't it?

I think this could have actually worked, back when everyone used basically the same data model, prior to Apple forking editorial ideology.

Back to the color board -- there was some discussion on it in the FCP7 review by someone who likes FCPX [link] thread which you may find interesting.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Chris Harlan
Re: Anyone like the color board?
on Sep 28, 2011 at 6:24:22 pm

[Walter Soyka] "In other words, one single project file and one single media pool that all applications could work with. It'd be nice if everyone could get along, wouldn't it?
"


We were so close too. That is one of the most maddening things for me about this whole experience.The growing interoperability over the last few years was spectacular. FCS forced Avid to move so much closer to open standards. XML was really beginning to function extremely well across many borders. It seemed as if we were on the edge of de facto standards. Then, bam, somebody didn't want to play anymore.


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Bill Davis
Re: Anyone like the color board?
on Sep 28, 2011 at 8:37:46 pm

Walter,

You're surely not implying that the colorist should be given access to the EDIT decisions?

That doesn't seem workable.

Under that idea, won't sending the same project to 10 desks where each can potentially affect work on 5 areas within the project lead to 50 possible iterations?

Sounds like a bit of a logistical nightmare.

I must be misunderstanding this.

It does show a bit of the necessity of deciding early whether a video project should be seen as a thing done by an "author" - or a thing done by a team of people and how that's NOT the same thing.

Interestingly, this same battle is being waged silently in BANKING of all places.

I sit on the board of directors for a charity. I was acting treasurer for a while, so I had my SSN linked to the charity accounts. Those accounts were at Wells Fargo, but I don't personally bank there. My 96 year old mother, however does bank at Wells Fargo, and I hold power of attorney over her finances.

I'm at the drive-in teller a few months back and am informed that unless my mother's account is electronically linked to a savings account, there will be new "fees" applied. I don't want the fees so I agree to open a new savings account for her with auto-transfer between checking and savings to avoid the fees.

So imagine my astonishment when I went into on-line banking one day for the CHARITY - an my mothers freeking electronic banking screens pop up as part of the charities financial display!

I learned that in the modern era bank accounts attach to a PERSON, not to an entity. And there's no way to avoid that. The password allow access not just to a SINGLE account, but to any and everything linked to that person's ID, even if you never intended to make such access possible.

Had to re-think my entire view of what "accounts" and "passwords" functionally mean in the electronic era.

In video, individual creation of assets - and group access to assets - are likely to have the same issues.

(And guard your passwords strictly and ALWAYS. They might be linked to stuff you never imagined they would be via the pervasive tentacles of the interwebs!)

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Chris Harlan
Re: Anyone like the color board?
on Sep 28, 2011 at 8:50:44 pm

[Bill Davis] "Walter,

You're surely not implying that the colorist should be given access to the EDIT decisions?

That doesn't seem workable.

Under that idea, won't sending the same project to 10 desks where each can potentially affect work on 5 areas within the project lead to 50 possible iterations?

Sounds like a bit of a logistical nightmare.
"



Bill, I'm pretty certain that Walter isn't suggesting such a thing without a tight control of access or privileges. My guess is that you are aware of that as well.

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Anyone like the color board?
on Sep 28, 2011 at 8:54:54 pm

[Bill Davis] "Walter, You're surely not implying that the colorist should be given access to the EDIT decisions?"

Of course not.

Since we're engaging in some "wouldn't it be nice if" on this forum, I'm asking this: wouldn't it be nice if you could eliminate the need for conform when moving an edit from one desk to another?

I'm suggesting the colorist should be able to open the editor's timeline natively in the coloring app, without having to conform. A coloring app wouldn't have editorial tools, and the colorist would grade, not alter the edit.

When the grade was finished, the colorist would pass the project and new render files back to the editor. When the editor opened the project, it could reconnect to the new render files (while retaining a link to the original media).

On collaborative projects (or on projects where one operator moves among applications) there is one and only one edit that ties them all together, yet today's workflows dictate that one timeline must be recreated separately from the NLE in the color app, in the DAW, and possibly in the finishing app. If you must make a change after picture lock, you have to re-conform everywhere.

I'm suggesting that one timeline which the NLE creates and the other apps can read and contribute to could be a powerful workflow.

I had initially hoped that a shared data model would be the direction FCPX would take: http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/335/1538

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Marvin Holdman
Re: Anyone like the color board?
on Sep 28, 2011 at 4:40:51 pm

[Stu Maschwitz of RedGiant } - "I mean sure, dream up a better way—but it has to actually be better"

Nailed it.

Marvin Holdman
Production Manager
Tourist Network
8317 Front Beach Rd, Suite 23
Panama City Beach, Fl
phone 850-234-2773 ext. 128
cell 850-585-9667
skype username - vidmarv


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Michael Sacci
Re: Anyone like the color board?
on Sep 28, 2011 at 7:04:25 pm

The advancement of the integrated color was one of the things I was really excited about. I understand Apple't thought behind all this stuff. It is so much better then what 3-way was. But I totally agree the way they implemented it just doesn't make sense. As far as the controls all they did was give us something definitely and not as good. They also gave as 3 panels to work with whereas they could easily put all that on a single panel if they went with traditional color wheels and sliders. My biggest grip of FCP X is how real estate unfriendly the entire app is. It just doesn't use the screen very well IMO, and this is most apparent with the color controls.


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Alan Okey
Re: Anyone like the color board?
on Sep 28, 2011 at 3:29:11 pm

[andy lewis] "All this talk about FCPX trashing NLE terminology and UI conventions... What about dumping the 200-hundred-year-old colour wheel?"

Apple apparently felt that color wheels were too complicated for the majority of their intended audience. Thus, they created the Color Board.

Think of it as the Office Assistant for grading - kind of like Clippy for color.

"It looks like you're trying to remove red! Just click and drag here!"


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Craig Seeman
Re: Anyone like the color board?
on Sep 28, 2011 at 4:38:42 pm

[Alan Okey] "Apple apparently felt that color wheels were too complicated for the majority of their intended audience."

I suspect it was more of a UI issue. I'd think the color wheel is easier to understand because you can see the complimentary colors. If you "remove" a color on the Color Board you'd have no idea why the color was shifting to a different color.

RippleTraining did a workaround creating a Motion effect apparently to give you a color wheel.
http://www.rippletraining.com/using-the-rt-color-balance-effect-in-final-cu...

I think Apple uses the Color Board because they probably thought it was awkward to have three color wheels instead of a single board with pucks for overall, high, mids, low.



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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Anyone like the color board?
on Sep 28, 2011 at 6:00:00 pm

A huge issue for me is that the "Color Board" ignores a fundamental principle of grading which is that luma and chroma are inter-related - adjust the luminance and you need to adjust the chroma to compensate. Hence the performance-enhancing value of a hardware interface where you can make both adjustments at the same time with trackballs.

In the FCP7 3-way CC, for all its limitations, you could adjust lift/gamma/gain and saturation from the same pane (unlike the hideous Media Composer "Color Corrector"). FCPX requires you to tab between Color, Saturation and Exposure panes, greatly hampering the workflow.

Simon Ubsdell
Director/Editor/Writer
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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Morten Ranmar
Re: Anyone like the color board?
on Sep 28, 2011 at 7:04:54 pm

And another issue with the bastard color board - why did key framing color effects disappear?

- No Parking Production -

2 x Finalcut Studio3, 2 x MacPro, 2 x ioHD, File Server w. X-Raid
.... and FCPX in the garbage bin


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Andy Neil
Re: Anyone like the color board?
on Sep 28, 2011 at 7:09:32 pm

I actually agree with your assessment, Simon. But to be the lone voice of what...naivete perhaps? I actually like the color board. I don't think it's better than the color wheel, but I can use it fine, and the capabilities and results of FCPX's color correction are better than FCP 7 in my opinion.

I wonder if the issue was a space issue in the design? Not enough room in the inspector for 3 color wheels? Personally, I would have like to see a color workspace. Avid has the idea of workspaces where you can design your UI for different functions. So you have a Record workspace where the Record Tool is visible, and the audio meters are larger, but the timeline is gone, because you only use this workspace for digitizing.

What if FCPX had a coloring workspace? Then they could have a big color wheel window next to the viewer. The event browser would go away because it's not needed there. And you could quickly go from clip to clip in your timeline and make changes to color. I would use the hell out of that kind of interface.

Andy

http://www.timesavertutorials.com


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Anyone like the color board?
on Sep 28, 2011 at 7:22:05 pm

[Andy Neil] "the capabilities and results of FCPX's color correction are better than FCP 7 in my opinion"

I'd agree - I think we are seeing the benefits of floating point here from the look of the results.

[Andy Neil] "What if FCPX had a coloring workspace?"

Quite - in the early days of FCPX before we actually knew what it was going to look and feel like, there was a fairly common presumption that as they were supposedly bundling color grading and audio sweetening (aka Color and Soundtrack Pro) into the single app, that we would have "Rooms" that would switch the UI to something fully appropriate to the job in hand.

It's a shame that what we currently have is, as you say, so very badly organized in terms of screen real estate - in fact, nothing actually feels like it's got the space it needs. I really don't feel that enough care was put into designing a space-efficient UI this time around, especially when it's meant to be able to function as a single screen environment.

Simon Ubsdell
Director/Editor/Writer
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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Bill Davis
Re: Anyone like the color board?
on Sep 28, 2011 at 8:50:34 pm

I actually agree with this view.

But as Phil Hodgetts reminded me in our last conversation, part of the problem with FCP-X is that most developers could barely even BEGIN working on their plug-ins until the radical new code base was locked. And that only happened 3 months ago. He opined that after they get a chance to understand and work with it for a while, the universe of plug-ins and even full-blown third party applications will start to grow rapidly.

If that's the case, FCP-X in a year (might) get much better in a mission critical area like color correction.

I put (might) in parens above because this is clearly SPECULATION and I'm a bit bored with of the same 3 guys coming after me every time I post a speculation and requiring me to defend it as if I conceived it as holy writ. : )

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Jim Giberti
Re: Anyone like the color board?
on Sep 28, 2011 at 10:18:55 pm

As my wife, who's an Adobe expert in design and web but no FCP experience, said: I can see Apple adding the option of color wheel control or color board control in future upgrades.


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andy lewis
Re: Anyone like the color board?
on Sep 28, 2011 at 11:31:23 pm

So that's three better alternatives suggested in a handful of forum posts:

1. A "rooms" model, with a specialised toolset and UI for each task.
2. Better use of space in a single-screen app, with colour wheels instead of the... whatever it is.
3. Full interoperability between software so using Resolve or anything else would be completely painless (admittedly this one is not within apple's power to solve alone).

My order of preference: 3,1,2


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Anyone like the color board?
on Sep 29, 2011 at 12:13:18 am

jumping in with my usual balls -

[Simon Ubsdell] "nothing actually feels like it's got the space it needs. I really don't feel that enough care was put into designing a space-efficient UI this time around, especially when it's meant to be able to function as a single screen environment."

yesss. I'm genuinely sort of crazy on this point - the application feels incredibly screen tight sometimes? I'm not ranting on this, there really is some super whatnot deep capacity, although I rant about the event stuff, the fact that its actually there is impressive whatever and etc.
still - the kung fu required to get everything into a monolithic single window feels full to bursting?

but say we would like to invoke a source monitor - for a variety of purposes - or expose fuller colour, or effect timeline environments -

what is the way out of this as a single window interface without tabs?

I do like those rooms tho, he said simplistically, I will have.. a tracking colour room, annnd a tracks room and, what the hell, an audio post room.









http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Anyone like the color board?
on Sep 29, 2011 at 1:11:20 am

The lack of workspace customization does seem weird. I really want to be able to move the scopes (and also have more scope keyboard shortcuts so I can open right to parade).

Since that link went straight to one of my posts, I guess I'll say something, although I'm a bit gun shy as I feel like I'll have to defend what I see is the good in something when it's obvious everything needs work. And I'm OK with FCPX needing work. Systems aren't built overnight. Anyway,

The actual board is just ok, I think it should be an option, wheels if you want. Truly, I'd use both. I also think the board was made as it allows you to move the pucks with the keyboard and a rectangular shape makes more sense to plot with right angle controls. As Simon mentioned, a control surface would fix that (hey how about an iPad?). Sorry, couldn't resist. Using a mouse, I sometimes find it precise, sometimes it's a bunch of guessing. What I do like: the masks, the inside/outside control of the masks and the keying, although I'd love true drawable bezier masks across the whole app (or just wrap Motion right in to FCP).

I do seem to get great results out of it, so that's something, I guess.

The whole of FCPX is extremely keyboard driven, I like it a lot, it just needs some more precision. Mapping the keypad enter key to control-p is great. I and i of course copied all of my jkl mark in/out, go to in/out to my keypad as well.

Today, was messing with the layout of putting the viewer on the second display. It wasn't quite ideal, but kind of interesting. I'm with Aindreas, bring on that rumored FCP Extreme.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Anyone like the color board?
on Sep 29, 2011 at 1:47:24 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "although I'm a bit gun shy as I feel like I'll have to defend what I see is the good in something when it's obvious everything needs work. And I'm OK with FCPX needing work. Systems aren't built overnight. Anyway,"



nay - that has got to be totally cool, otherwise It's just mad hammerblows on FCPX here. sure its a debate forum and whatnot.

Proffering up - I had a sizzle reel gig start yesterday with a ton of marathon footage for a sports client - clips were say 10-30 seconds to 2-3 minutes long, shot on bikes and stationary - they included critical reaction moments with female runners, sports branding, city surrounds and DJ in situ passerby shots -all part of varying long record 5D clips.

let no one for one second think that i did not see myself bounding sub sections of these clips in yellow, and transferring them to assigned keywords, because I did.
I - mind's eye - saw how I was doing that in FCPX. All day.
Instead... with an aversion to instant sub-clipping and all it entails - i was constructing multi-keyword file descriptions after viewing with multiple marker sets to function as in and outs in preparation for laying down sequence selects for the major keywords.
(with no sort of vital VO audio, I prefer dumping a sequence selects lay down bar subclips? please anyone chime in there - no really)

there is a lot of that ,said the idiot, in FCP7

also it was all off 5D MK2. I lost most of yesterday to mpeg streamclip.

I did bodge initial selects using file colour coding in the finder while mpeg streamclip was chugging away.

there is a necessary application here in FCPX, but there is just too much crazy wrong - screen real estate - my sort of biggie - extensibility, fears over apple's true goals (valid) the operation of the timeline (in and out only on the primary? really?) and whathaveyou. anyway.

I. want. tracks. not metaphors, tracks.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Ben Scott
Re: Anyone like the color board?
on Sep 29, 2011 at 11:11:52 am

think the colour board is nice in concept but poor in practice

its been designed for a touch surface not a mouse, i even tried remapping keyboard to move between tabs and parameters but it got very very confusing

its not great at all as a way to correct colour balance, the wheels and curves are needed for this

its a nice interface for luma and saturation controls however

I really think it has potential with things like secondaries that are amazing, shame the shape can only be keyframed as no tracker

if they had bothered to implement a copy/paste and colour looks browser like Aperture it would have been good, shame they are waiting to release that in the future and probably charge for it

also the way broadcast safe is implemented is just dumb, putting on an adjustment layer to get it to work in the correct order for effects e.g. colour correction is applied after effects in render order so makes broadcast safe useless on graded shots


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Gerald Baria
Re: Anyone like the color board?
on Sep 29, 2011 at 11:37:26 pm

Like everything else in life, whenever theres something new, its just a matter of learning it. Learn it enough and you could pretty much do everything you have to. These tuts surely puts the color board's critics to shame. http://www.colorgradingcentral.com/final-cut-pro-x-color-grading-table-of-c...

I see a future, where an ipad companion app which will put FCPX's color boards on the ipad, (ala Da Vinci Resolve control surface)and control it there while a bigger playback screen or scopes will take its place on the monitor.

Its as big and looks as it is, because as I've been saying, FCPX is made for touch.

Quobetah
New=Better


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Anyone like the color board?
on Sep 30, 2011 at 7:51:19 am

[Gerald Baria] "I see a future, where an ipad companion app which will put FCPX's color boards on the ipad,"

iPad control of Apple Color has been around for a while via the Tangent Wave app -

http://www.tangentdevices.co.uk/products_vwave.asp

- it was a fun idea for about five minutes until people started to realize that tactile feedback is really crucial in a grading interface, which is why dedicated hardware offers such big advantages.

The limitation of the iPad as a controller will always be that your fingers don't know where they are (except in the most general sense) as there is no feedback from the slick flat surface of the screen. This means that you are stuck with having to look down at the interface to see what it is you are doing - and that's no way to grade, or in fact do anything remotely precise in controller terms.

Clearly the Color Board has been laid out with the iPad in mind, hence the vertical rather than rotational movement of the controls - I frankly think this implementation won't ever get beyond the novelty stage because of the limitations I've described.

Imagine trying to edit with FCPX if you had to look down at the keyboard and/or check the physical position of the mouse to make sure you were doing the right thing all the time - this would not enhance your editing pleasure one bit. Your hands and finger know where they are on the keyboard and the mouse which is why they work pretty well as interfaces. (A lot of people will also point out how much quicker they can type on a BlackBerry versus an iPhone, again on the basis that you're getting tactile feedback from the keys.)

Simon Ubsdell
Director/Editor/Writer
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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Neil Patience
Re: Anyone like the color board?
on Sep 30, 2011 at 12:40:21 pm

Have to say agree with Simon, the lack of tactile feedback and the delay when trying to use the iPad Tangent control surface make it pretty useless. Was fun for 5 mins until you actually tried it.

Even the Wave, which is pretty good, doesnt feel anywhere near as nice as the CP series panels.

I have not fully investigated the colour board in FCPX but have had a good play around. As a basic Colour Corrector its not too bad. I dont really mind the "squareness" but find colour wheels more logical. It does seem to be primed for a touch interface though which as I said earlier is far from ideal.
Not sure how colour wheels on say a Tangent panel would even translate - representing colour as a circle relates to phase and vectors - Apple seem to have gone for the "Wendy Burger" school of grading with the square thing :-)

All that said to tout it as a replacement for Color seems, to me at least, to be a huge leap of marketing hype rather than anything else.

For my money Color was the one App that really had Avid beat in terms of ability and functionality. Guess they just threw in that particular towel to Resolve and Baselight ?

best wishes
Neil
http://www.patience.tv


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Anyone like the color board?
on Sep 30, 2011 at 12:52:53 pm

[Neil Patience] "All that said to tout it as a replacement for Color seems, to me at least, to be a huge leap of marketing hype rather than anything else.

For my money Color was the one App that really had Avid beat in terms of ability and functionality. Guess they just threw in that particular towel to Resolve and Baselight ?"


Completely agree with all of that - though I think they managed to imply rather than state that it was a replacement. Certainly there appears to be no basis to the rumour that went the rounds that somehow Color had been "rolled into" FCPX.

Simon Ubsdell
Director/Editor/Writer
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Anyone like the color board?
on Sep 30, 2011 at 4:25:16 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "Certainly there appears to be no basis to the rumour that went the rounds that somehow Color had been "rolled into" FCPX."

Definitely not. Just the ideas of secondaries/masking/key, but that's about it.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Anyone like the color board?
on Sep 30, 2011 at 4:24:02 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "- it was a fun idea for about five minutes until people started to realize that tactile feedback is really crucial in a grading interface, which is why dedicated hardware offers such big advantages. "

Absolutely, but if not going to a dedicated controller, then the Wave App did allow you to control multiple points at once which is not possible with kb/mouse. Also, the Wave App was free and limited in it's capabilities. it was very cool, I used it, but then I had to constantly switch back and forth as there was not enough control. It did make me want a Wave, which was probably the point of the App. :)

[Simon Ubsdell] "The limitation of the iPad as a controller will always be that your fingers don't know where they are (except in the most general sense) as there is no feedback from the slick flat surface of the screen. This means that you are stuck with having to look down at the interface to see what it is you are doing - and that's no way to grade, or in fact do anything remotely precise in controller terms."

Mostly true. If the control pad and the GUI coincide, you could at least see what you are doing without having to look at the pad except to find the touch point, which isn't ideal as you have mentioned. Nothing a little more programming couldn't fix in my opinion.

[Simon Ubsdell] "(A lot of people will also point out how much quicker they can type on a BlackBerry versus an iPhone, again on the basis that you're getting tactile feedback from the keys.)"

Digging in to this sidebar, if the iPhone had two or three letters per button, I guarantee people would be faster as the buttons wouldn't be so small (Q and W as one button, or QWE as one button). I type much better on my iPad, just as fast as a keyboard with no tactile feedback, but the buttons fit my fingys. I also like the split keyboard that is going to be enabled in iOS5.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Anyone like the color board?
on Sep 30, 2011 at 6:18:15 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "the Wave App was free and limited in it's capabilities. it was very cool, I used it, but then I had to constantly switch back and forth as there was not enough control. It did make me want a Wave, which was probably the point of the App. :)"

It was definitely a great piece of marketing - and genuinely a lot of fun. I think the whole point of the exercise was actually to convince you of the clear necessity for a hardware panel, which sort of underlines my point I think.

[Jeremy Garchow] " If the control pad and the GUI coincide, you could at least see what you are doing without having to look at the pad except to find the touch point"

Not sure how you envisage this happening in this case? Everything on the iPad? I'm not sure there is a solution that isn't going to be a compromise somewhere.

I think Minority Report has a huge lot to answer for here - we have seen the future and we know it's going to be touch screens everywhere. Maybe, just maybe, they won't work as well for us as they did for Tom Cruise ;-)

[Jeremy Garchow] " I type much better on my iPad, just as fast as a keyboard with no tactile feedback"

I have to confess I just can't get used to the iPhone/iPad non-physical keyboard thing, but I know that I'm probably dysfunctional because I do see people flying with them (not literally "flying" but I'm sure that's coming in the next iteration but one!). I do like your idea of the 2/3 letters per button thing though.

Simon Ubsdell
Director/Editor/Writer
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Anyone like the color board?
on Sep 30, 2011 at 6:54:42 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "Not sure how you envisage this happening in this case? Everything on the iPad? I'm not sure there is a solution that isn't going to be a compromise somewhere."

Totally. It would certainly be a compromise.

Hear me out and I know this isn't perfect, but since there's ideas flying around, why not keep going?

The big "difference" between a dedicated controller (panel with dials/buttons/balls/rings) and a virtual controller (slick glass) is being able to reach without looking and know what you are touching, right? The tactile feedback.

Now, imagine that the iPad or "tactileless" control surface could also be a "mouse" pad. By hitting a modifier (corner of the screen, edge of the screen, something really easy to hit) and dragging your finger, this now puts your iPad in mouse mode. You can then select a part of the interface to change (say, lift, gamma, gain, or chroma, or whatever) and divides your iPad in to the appropriate sections. In the case of lift gamma gain, there would be three "sections" virtually created on your iPad. This would take getting used to, but using roughly 33.33% of the screen, you wouldn't have to look down at the iPad, you'd simply release the modifier key, and start scrubbing as if there were a track ball. The left side of the screen being lift, middle is gamma, right being gain. Two fingers close together could signify the luma values, three fingers could signify a total eclipse of the heart, or something more colorly. Then if you need to change to another tool, you could select that part of the interface, or use your keyboard to change your ipad to another "mode" (like hit k for Key, r for Red curve, o then r to take you to the primary out room and then red curve, m for mask, or c for curves and you get three RGB "zones" on your ipad). This would mean you would never have to look down at the ipad, as there's nothing to look at. All you have to do is control the interface you're looking at on your monitor, and know which zones relate to which room. kind of like memorizing all the buttons on a control surface. Hope that makes sense.

Of course, when our computer monitors become 40" touch screens, this conversation is now moot. :)

[Simon Ubsdell] "I do like your idea of the 2/3 letters per button thing though."

Not my idea! Pre-iPhone, my first smart phone was an old Blackberry that had this style of keyboard (more letters per button). It was the fastest typing mobile device I have used, and it was more accurate as the programming had to be more accurate (or maybe less accurate, I don't know. At any rate, the auto correct was better). My next blackberry had a full tactile keyboard and the buttons were so small it was hard for me to use, and I have the same problem with my iPhone. I wish there was an App that allowed custom keyboards across the device, but it seems to be buried in the iOS, and the apps that are available aren't allowed to be used across the whole device.

Jeremy


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Anyone like the color board?
on Sep 30, 2011 at 7:27:58 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "
Now, imagine that the iPad or "tactileless" control surface could also be a "mouse" pad. By hitting a modifier (corner of the screen, edge of the screen, something really easy to hit) and dragging your finger, this now puts your iPad in mouse mode. You can then select a part of the interface to change (say, lift, gamma, gain, or chroma, or whatever) and divides your iPad in to the appropriate sections."


Great idea. I could definitely see how that would work - and I think would probably get round a lot of the problems. Now all you have to do is patent it and hope that nobody else reads these forums ;-)

Actually I think Graeme Nattress had a really great idea with his very elegant Chromagic plug-in for the FCP7:

http://www.nattress.com/Chromagic/Chromagic.htm

I think there are probably some very clever ways of addressing these issues that will definitely minimize the limitations - I'm not convinced the limitations will quite go away.

I think as human beings we fundamentally like tactile response from our environment and our tools - it's what gives us a feeling of control, ballistics, rhythm, torque, muscle memory, response times, it all speaks to something pretty inate in us and we know when these things don't feel right in our hands. I can't help feeling that that's what's the missing component from the iPad as controller concept.

I think it's a very interesting area though.

Simon Ubsdell
Director/Editor/Writer
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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Andy Neil
Re: Anyone like the color board?
on Sep 30, 2011 at 7:37:45 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "I think as human beings we fundamentally like tactile response from our environment and our tools"

That's why the iPad 10 will have technology that uses electomagnetic force to mimic buttons and ridges, effectively tricking our sense of touch on a flat surface.

....patent pending. :-)

Andy

http://www.timesavertutorials.com


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Anyone like the color board?
on Sep 30, 2011 at 7:45:21 pm

[Andy Neil] "That's why the iPad 10 will have technology that uses electomagnetic force to mimic buttons and ridges, effectively tricking our sense of touch on a flat surface."

Now that I want to see - brilliant idea :-)

Simon Ubsdell
Director/Editor/Writer
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Anyone like the color board?
on Sep 30, 2011 at 7:37:39 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "I think as human beings we fundamentally like tactile response from our environment and our tools - it's what gives us a feeling of control, ballistics, rhythm, torque, muscle memory, response times, it all speaks to something pretty inate in us and we know when these things don't feel right in our hands. I can't help feeling that that's what's the missing component from the iPad as controller concept."

Absolutely. I totally agree.

The technology isn't there. Once we can get formable electronic surfaces, then the computer touch surface is truly mature. I think someone mentioned something like this on the cow at one point a long time ago. If you could get a "cover" that resembled what a mixing board, or Wave felt like to go over your iPad giving you a bit of tactile feedback but allowing the electronic control, then you might have something.

Although the latest generation will grow up controlling electronics with little to no tactile feedback. I wonder what they will think? Sorry, I think I have participated in derailing a thread again.

The color board. It's useable. Tip your bartenders.

Jeremy


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Anyone like the color board?
on Sep 30, 2011 at 7:44:41 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Once we can get formable electronic surfaces, then the computer touch surface is truly mature."

I was actually thinking of that as a solution but felt it would sound too Luddite to mention it - if you're putting back the tactile component, why did you abandon it in the first place?

Very interesting stuff, thanks for the derailment.

Simon Ubsdell
Director/Editor/Writer
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Anyone like the color board?
on Sep 30, 2011 at 7:47:53 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] " if you're putting back the tactile component, why did you abandon it in the first place?"

Excellent question. It allows one device to be multiple control surfaces. In our examples, an iPad could control a color surface, it could also be an audio mixer, and it could also be made to feel like a piece of paper or wood when sketching. It allows the digitization of analog or physical devices without losing the human touch. I am sure there are much smarter people than me that will think of more brilliant reasons, but it's one device, multiple uses.

Jeremy


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Anyone like the color board?
on Sep 30, 2011 at 7:52:24 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "it's one device, multiple uses"

I appreciate that part of it - and it's already shown itself to be very cost-effective in this regard, but is cost-effectiveness really the best way of looking at this?

My feeling is there is a faulty argument that goes: the iPad can function as a controller; the iPad is cool and feels like the future; therefore the iPad is the controller of the future. I think there are loads of missing steps in this argument that are not really being explored ...

Simon Ubsdell
Director/Editor/Writer
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Anyone like the color board?
on Sep 30, 2011 at 7:57:41 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "but is cost-effectiveness really the best way of looking at this?"

That's how my clients look at most of the jobs coming in the door lately. "How much is this going to cost?" :)

If money were no object, then no, cost has nothing to do with it and we'd all have non portable dedicated controllers everywhere we went.

[Simon Ubsdell] "I think there are loads of missing steps in this argument that are not really being explored ..."

Surely. Like what?


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Anyone like the color board?
on Sep 30, 2011 at 8:02:29 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Surely. Like what?"

I guess you're being facetious here, but really what's so special about the iPad??????

I hope it's not the best technology available as it's really only a product that lucked into wide usability because of the ingenuity of zillions of third parties - you gotta hand it to Apple they've got that part of the equation perfectly worked out.

I really hope there are lots of products that are just about to be released that make the whole touch screen revolution much more plausible - I can't help feeling that next year or the year after we'll look back on the iPad and think it was pretty lame overall. If not, then the world is less full of clever people than I always thought it was ;-)

Simon Ubsdell
Director/Editor/Writer
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Anyone like the color board?
on Sep 30, 2011 at 8:14:27 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "I guess you're being facetious here, but really what's so special about the iPad?????? "

No, I was just curious about what you might think the "loads of missing steps" from your last comment were. It's a great point, I was just trying to get more out of it! :0)

I was just using the iPad as an example. It could be any touch surface from any company.

[Simon Ubsdell] "you gotta hand it to Apple they've got that part of the equation perfectly worked out."

I pretty much totally agree, and I think that this approach to FCPX is what we are seeing now. Apple builds the infrastructure and platform, 3rd parties add the spring board.

[Simon Ubsdell] "I really hope there are lots of products that are just about to be released that make the whole touch screen revolution much more plausible - I can't help feeling that next year or the year after we'll look back on the iPad and think it was pretty lame overall. If not, then the world is less full of clever people than I always thought it was ;-)"

Well, using current technology what smooth touch surface would out-do a smooth touch surface? Are you taking about the operating system? What else more do you want to see? Bigger, better, faster? I am genuinely curious, I am not attacking or being facetious. I like hearing these kinds of ideas.


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Michael Gissing
Re: Anyone like the color board?
on Sep 30, 2011 at 10:40:39 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "I think Minority Report has a huge lot to answer for here - we have seen the future and we know it's going to be touch screens everywhere"

Star Trek used to make me laugh that by the 23rd Century we were still playing with touch screens that beeped. At the risk of spilling the thoughts of David Lawrence's thread into this one, DAWs have done the touch screen thing and the ergonomics and functionality has been shown to be poor compared to tactile programmable buttons, wheels and knobs. Have a look at a Fairlight Xynergi controller as an example.

Ergonomics is such an important thing for anyone who sits for hours in front of a screen and touch screen gesture versus dedicated programmable controller is a worthwhile debate.


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