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Richard Herd
My wish is
on May 19, 2011 at 4:57:19 pm

That Color is fixed. Don't get me wrong, the images look great. The problem is the file management bs. It is so messed up there really is no way to make it worse.

Here's what I am doing, for this particular project. My deliverable is color timed shots. There's a bunch of 'em. The assemble edit will be made next. I'm setting the look as soon as possible.

So I logged and transferred the P2 and labeled each shot and entered the Scene name. Then I made individual bins for each scene and organized accordingly. Then I made sequences, dumped all the footage into the timeline and send to... color. Of course, I then reset all the folder and file management bs. Color timed and rendered to APR422.

here's where it gets stupider! Next scene, new sequence, send to... Color. What happened? I'll bet you already know this. It auto-saved the new scene as a subfolder in the first scene.

Now come on Apple! I'm a big boy. I don't need my hand held via autosave bs. Please don't try and guess my workflow. I want to decide it. I mean, before anything happened in FCP, I had to set all the FCP scratch disk info anyway, so why couldn't that info just be sent to... Color also along with the sequence and project?

Hello? Is anyone listening. (The wide shot above my head diminishing me as I scream to the sky) Anyone? Anyone at all?


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Tom Wolsky
Re: My wish is
on May 19, 2011 at 5:34:36 pm

None of that's going to happen with FCP X, except yuou may have less need to go to Color.

All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Author: "Final Cut Pro 5 Editing Essentials" and "Final Cut Express 4 Editing Workshop"


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Bret Williams
Re: My wish is
on May 19, 2011 at 6:04:17 pm

Where is the move to FCP forum button?


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: My wish is
on May 19, 2011 at 8:00:26 pm

"You may have less need to go to Color" ...

... because you won't be able to!

My guess anyway.

I'll be stunned if FCPX 1.0 has any kind of integration with any of the existing apps and if I were into that kind of thing I'd be taking bets right now.

;-)

Simon Ubsdell
Director/Editor/Writer
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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Craig Seeman
Re: My wish is
on May 19, 2011 at 9:12:00 pm

[Tom Wolsky] "except yuou may have less need to go to Color."

And the whole database type file management seems to be changing so even if/when something akin to round tripping happens, it may be a whole new experience (hopefully better managed).



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Richard Herd
Re: My wish is
on May 19, 2011 at 10:27:02 pm

Round tripping gives me a hang over.


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Craig Seeman
Re: My wish is
on May 19, 2011 at 10:36:50 pm

[Richard Herd] "Round tripping gives me a hang over."

Hmm, does that mean it's an intoxicating experience for you?
For me it's more like Motion sickness (and Color sickness, etc).

Ultimately I expect the integration to be much tighter when single uber app or tightly integrated suite. It may not be there out of the gate though especially if it moves towards suite.



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Richard Herd
Re: My wish is
on May 19, 2011 at 11:00:57 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Hmm, does that mean it's an intoxicating experience for you?
For me it's more like Motion sickness (and Color sickness, etc).
"


Nicely Said! Puking in the toilet was the imagery I was after.

I vote for single uber app


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Craig Seeman
Re: My wish is
on May 19, 2011 at 11:46:16 pm

[Richard Herd] "Puking in the toilet was the imagery I was after."

Round tripping: the race to the porcelain altar with the prayer that one doesn't create a messy path along the way.

[Richard Herd] "I vote for single uber app"

Least one stumble across the doorsill spewing files upon impact.



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Simon Astbury
Re: My wish is
on May 20, 2011 at 10:57:51 am

There won't be round-tripping because there won't be any other apps. Color is going the way of shake IMO.


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Joseph Owens
Re: My wish is
on May 20, 2011 at 3:36:15 pm

[Simon Astbury] "Color is going the way of shake IMO."

Obvious for some time.

jPo

You mean "Old Ben"? Ben Kenobi?


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Richard Herd
Re: My wish is
on May 20, 2011 at 5:33:51 pm

I say good riddance.

But I do hope the capability is part of the uber app. From what I discern from the preview is it is integrated.


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Tom Daigon
Re: My wish is
on May 20, 2011 at 6:18:06 pm

To compare Color to the limited color corrector I saw demoed is like comparing a Ferrari to a VW bug. Sure they both are modes of transportation, but the power and scope of one is much more than the other. This is based only on what I saw at the sneak preview.

Tom Daigon
Avid DS / FCP / After Effects Editor
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com


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Craig Seeman
Re: My wish is
on May 20, 2011 at 6:25:47 pm

Color grading a feature length production would usually involve someone using a control surface as well and even if that level of control wasn't there out of the gate, I'd expect that will happen at some point.

Basically what we saw was something like Colorista II built in and nothing that implied a full Color grading suite. I don't see Color going away at all. I think color prep will be much easier in FCPX and round tripping as we know it may be gone but I still expect that will see a full high end implementation at some point. For many, Color is a key attraction to FCS.



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David Roth Weiss
Re: My wish is
on May 20, 2011 at 6:58:41 pm

[Craig Seeman] "I still expect that will see a full high end implementation at some point."

I'm not sure what's giving you that impression Craig, but I hope whatever is giving you that vibe is going to pay off. I wish I were more optimistic about what the future holds in terms of professional color grading, but I'm becoming rather pessimistic just now.

[Craig Seeman] "Color is a key attraction to FCS."

Even though that's true, and even though the Randy Ubilos and his team would acknowledge it, I'm not sure that it means anything to them any longer. The fact that proper professional grading requires time, training, and talent, may be antithetical to what they're trying to achieve. I hope that's not the case, but it could be, and I don't think we'll really know until they release "X" next month.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: My wish is
on May 20, 2011 at 7:17:13 pm

[Craig Seeman] "I don't see Color going away at all."

Do Apple really want to compete with what Blackmagic are now doing with Resolve and the price point they are fighting at?

Maybe ... but personally I very much doubt the pro-grading game appeals to them that much any more in the light of these developments. Let's not forget Color was always just a third party acquisition and there hasn't been much sign that Apple have embraced its ongoing development very enthusiastically.

But, heck, I sure hope I'm wrong!

Simon Ubsdell
Director/Editor/Writer
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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David Roth Weiss
Re: My wish is
on May 20, 2011 at 7:30:39 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] " Let's not forget Color was always just a third party acquisition and there hasn't been much sign that Apple have embraced its ongoing development very enthusiastically."

What can we actually point to among the Pro Apps that Apple has developed enthusiastically?

Like so much of FCS, Color could really be such a great app if Apple had just made an effort to just get the kinks out.

Many here in L.A., myself included, have noticed a sharp decline in demand lately for professional grading with Color. Have more non-pros finally learned to use it? Has Resolve suddenly become much more popular? Who knows???

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: My wish is
on May 20, 2011 at 8:01:55 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "What can we actually point to among the Pro Apps that Apple has developed enthusiastically?"

Yup, totally agree with all of that, sadly. You get the sense that they like the initial idea of being involved in pro-app-Land a lot more than the unglamorous reality of continuous dogged product development.

I mean, what were they thinking when they got involved with Shake, for example? That was never going to work out, was it?! Color seems to be the exact same thing all over again.

STP is another product that could be so good with a bit more care and attention - but I can't see that happening either.

I do see the so-called uber-app that so many have called for so long simply taking over from the more serious stuff.

Simon Ubsdell
Director/Editor/Writer
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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Tom Wolsky
Re: My wish is
on May 20, 2011 at 8:21:52 pm

Those were different and desperate times, when Apple was fighting for survival. Jobs had come back from NeXT and Pixar and saw video as part of Apple's DNA, and it was going elsewhere. Serious compositing was on the PC. Avid was threatening to go PC only. Adobe took Premiere Pro to PC only. Apple saw high end production as a way to sell high margin desktop boxes, the same impetus that made it buy KeyGrip from Macromedia and turn it into Final Cut Pro.

Times have changed. Apple's new DNA is mobile devices.

All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Author: "Final Cut Pro 5 Editing Essentials" and "Final Cut Express 4 Editing Workshop"


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Walter Soyka
Re: My wish is
on May 20, 2011 at 8:37:28 pm

[Tom Wolsky] "Those were different and desperate times, when Apple was fighting for survival. Jobs had come back from NeXT and Pixar and saw video as part of Apple's DNA, and it was going elsewhere. Serious compositing was on the PC. Avid was threatening to go PC only. Adobe took Premiere Pro to PC only. Apple saw high end production as a way to sell high margin desktop boxes, the same impetus that made it buy KeyGrip from Macromedia and turn it into Final Cut Pro.

Times have changed. Apple's new DNA is mobile devices."


Ironically, now that apps like Smoke, Resolve, and SCRATCH have come to the Mac, Apple's mobile focus seems to threaten the platform that these developers were drawn to and started developing against a couple years ago.

I try to limit my arm-waving rants on this topic, but more frequent updates to the Mac Pros, more expansion slots (to compete with similarly-priced PC workstations), and better support for NVIDIA cards with CUDA would go a long way in the high-end production market.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Craig Seeman
Re: My wish is
on May 20, 2011 at 8:53:53 pm

And Thunderbolt appeals to iPhone users?

It's a professional interface in which the use is going to be predominantly in the professional video market.



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Walter Soyka
Re: My wish is
on May 20, 2011 at 8:55:31 pm

[Craig Seeman] "And Thunderbolt appeals to iPhone users? It's a professional interface in which the use is going to be predominantly in the professional video market."

Honestly, Thunderbolt -- coupled with the rumors of smaller Mac Pro cases -- scares me. I'd hate to see Mac Pros losing higher-bandwidth PCIe slots while adding lower-bandwidth Thunderbolt ports.

I hope to be wrong about this, because having both would be nice!

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Sohrab Sandhu
Re: My wish is
on May 20, 2011 at 8:58:52 pm

[Craig Seeman] "It's a professional interface in which the use is going to be predominantly in the professional video market."

Its funny you mentioned that.

Very recently, I have met 3 brand new macbook pro owners who have no idea that their computer has a thunderbolt interface! But they paid the price for it and apple is very happy about it.

2.66 GHz 8-core, ATI Radeon HD 4870,
FCS 3, AJA Kona Lhi



"The creative person wants to be a know-it-all. He wants to know about all kinds of things: ancient history, nineteenth-century mathematics, current manufacturing techniques, flower arranging, and hog futures. Because he never knows when these ideas might come together to form a new idea. It may happen six minutes later or six months, or six years down the road. But he has faith that it will happen." -- Carl Ally


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David Roth Weiss
Re: My wish is
on May 20, 2011 at 9:08:25 pm

[Sohrab Sandhu] "Very recently, I have met 3 brand new macbook pro owners who have no idea that their computer has a thunderbolt interface!"

Why would it be important to them Sohrab? There's no way they can use TBolt now, so it's just one more mysterious little silver connector to them.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: My wish is
on May 20, 2011 at 7:03:03 pm

[Richard Herd] "I do hope the capability is part of the uber app"

Personally I reckon an uber app is the worst possible outcome.

There are very good reasons why compositing, grading, and audio finishing apps look and feel so different from each other and from editing apps. They each have totally different UI requirements in order to maximize the efficiency of their individual processes.

Bundling them all together into one compromise app is going to result in the least best solution for everything. I have no doubt this will appeal to the users who don't really care that much about dedicated audio or grading or compositing capability (and I totally recognize there are many such FCP users out there), but it will be a sad day for the rest of us - few as we may be.

Almost as sad as the day Apple consigned Shake to the trashcan of history!

But what can you do? No-one can have everything they want ...

Simon Ubsdell
Director/Editor/Writer
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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Walter Soyka
Re: My wish is
on May 20, 2011 at 8:02:30 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "There are very good reasons why compositing, grading, and audio finishing apps look and feel so different from each other and from editing apps. They each have totally different UI requirements in order to maximize the efficiency of their individual processes. "

I've made this comment in other threads as well, but I think that what we're all looking for is not necessarily a unified application, but a unified data model and media database.

Autodesk has something like this with Wire allowing libraries and media to be shared among workstations on a network, but I'm talking about an even deeper degree of shared data.

FCP, Color, STP, Motion, etc. are all fundamentally applications that store and process information about creative decisions with media clips and effects over time. If they could all "understand" their own parts of the same timeline and refer to media based on a centrally-organized database -- instead of each application creating its own separate interpretation of the original editorial timeline -- we could have all the power and flexibility that the separate apps provide without all the pain of round-tripping. This would create entirely new workflows and offer new possibilities.

Bonus points if the database is multi-user. The necessity of picture lock before audio sweetening and color grading could disappear entirely. Editorial would be the hub, and the other departments could work on their shots or their scenes throughout the process.

Whether this would be a good thing or a bad thing may be a matter of personal opinion. Whether Apple is pursuing anything like this or not will be evident in another month's time.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Richard Herd
Re: My wish is
on May 20, 2011 at 8:25:22 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I've made this comment in other threads as well, but I think that what we're all looking for is not necessarily a unified application, but a unified data model and media database."

Well said!

The Application (Formerly) Known As Color, then, does two things: (1) some underlying code manipulates picture data; (2) the GUI allows end users to apply the code to data.


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Walter Soyka
Re: My wish is
on May 20, 2011 at 8:32:07 pm

[Richard Herd] "The Application (Formerly) Known As Color, then, does two things: (1) some underlying code manipulates picture data; (2) the GUI allows end users to apply the code to data."

Right -- and the media database tracks Color's renders and re-associates FCP's media links to the the graded, rendered files, but still knows about the unprocessed original files.

On the collaboration side, an editorial change in FCP like a new shot in the timeline simply appears in Color, because they are sharing the same basic database that defines the edit. Color knows the shot is new, and once it's graded, the database is updated again and FCP can get at the new media.

Now that FCP X will be a 64-bit multithreaded app with a modern color model and real color management, this one huge architectural re-write of the entire suite is my only wishlist item. Think it's too much to ask?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Richard Herd
Re: My wish is
on May 20, 2011 at 8:53:59 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Think it's too much to ask?"

Not at all.

How many folks do you think have been working on this, in silence, for how many years?


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Tom Wolsky
Re: My wish is
on May 20, 2011 at 8:23:48 pm

Could not agree more. Common databases are the key, and it is great to see that is appears FCP X is database driven.

All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Author: "Final Cut Pro 5 Editing Essentials" and "Final Cut Express 4 Editing Workshop"


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