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I need to vent

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Mark Morache
I need to vent
on Aug 28, 2011 at 3:22:43 am

I've edited several projects for our daily tv show on FCX, and the experience has been a bit of a roller coaster... highs and lows.

I'm optimistic about the future of this thing, and I don't know why I keep starting projects on it when there's obviously so much they need to fix.

Today has been filled with frustrations, so I need to vent.

Why can't I slip a clip without moving the attached clips?
Why are there attached clips? Why can't I unattach them, make an edit then reattach them? In other words why can't I lock my tracks.

Why doesn't this thing remember my ins and outs? Must I make everything a favorite?

Why can't I lock the time position of a clip when I move it vertically?

Why can't I lock the vertical or horizontal movement with the shift key when I apply a transform in the viewer?

If I build a bit of my timeline with some transitional effects, why can't I pull that out of the primary storyline and place it in a secondary storyline? Why do I want to do this? Because I can't slip my clips in the primary storyline without moving my connected clips. ARRRRRGH!

Why do I need to go into two nests just to animate my opacity on a clip? Open video animation, then click the most miniscule box to see the opacity animation. FC7 shows this directly in the timeline.

When I expand the video animation tab, why is there space wasted for parameters I can't animate?

Why can't I extend a clip to cover up some gap next to it, without leaving a zero frame gap?

Why does this thing default to 5.1 surround sound for new projects?

Why do I need to wait for all of the projects to load when I only want to use one?

Why is there no versioning, or a convenient way to save snapshots of the timeline at various points in time.

Why is there no attic, or autosave vault?

Why is there no way to relink clips that appear to be offline, even though I can see them on the hard drive.

Why doesn't it add a keyframe when I change a parameter? That's how FC7 works. When I have one keyframe and I make an adjustment further down the timeline, it should create a new keyframe.

There should be a way to paste an effect and scale the effect to the duration of the new clip.

Why can't I copy and paste just one effect from one clip to another without copying every other effect, audio keyframe and filter as well?

When I click on an audio keyframe and hit OPT-UP or OPT-DOWN, why doesn't it always adjust the level one db at a time? It seems to make larger adjustments if the timeline is shrunk very short and smaller adjustments if the timeline is tall. How does this make practical sense?

Why does this thing crash so much?

For every cool thing, there are 5 uncool things. For every efficiency they've added, there are 7 inefficencies. For every little bit of enjoyment that I have with this thing, there are 8 or 9 stomach-cramping, tooth-grinding, bowel-tightening frustrations.

It's August 27th. Where are the fixes we were promised?


Thanks. I feel better now.


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H. Spencer Young
Re: I need to vent
on Aug 28, 2011 at 4:29:23 am

sorry to waste bandwidth, but agreed on every single point.


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Tom Wolsky
Re: I need to vent
on Aug 28, 2011 at 5:22:52 am

I assume you've posed every one of these to feedback. Otherwise you're wasting your time.

All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Coming in 2011 "Complete Training for FCPX" from Class on Demand
"Final Cut Pro X for iMovie and Final Cut Express Users" from Focal Press


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Mark Morache
Re: I need to vent
on Aug 28, 2011 at 5:40:56 am

[Tom Wolsky] "I assume you've posed every one of these to feedback. Otherwise you're wasting your time."

Tom... I have indeed posted all of these and more to the feedback page.

However, if that's all I need to do to make sure I'm not wasting my time, I'd feel a lot better.

I've put much effort into trying to master this monster, and after all the hours I've spent I've certainly earned the right to vent.

I'm counting on Apple to fix this thing, otherwise we're all wasting more than our time.

---------
I'm calling it FCX. They took the "pro" out, so I will too.
I'll reconsider after the first upgrade.

Mark Morache
Avid/Xpri/FCP7/FCX
Evening Magazine,Seattle, WA
blogging at http://fcpx.wordpress.com


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Rafael Amador
Re: I need to vent
on Aug 28, 2011 at 10:48:08 am

If Apple would had payed any attntion to our feed-backs, FCPX would have never hapend.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Boris Jansch
Re: I need to vent
on Aug 29, 2011 at 11:28:50 am

I've been cutting with FCP X since it came out and initially I was in the same throw the baby out with the bath water camp.

A couple of months down the line, I'm loving the new way of editing despite having to learn a new way of editing. I also tried CS5.5 for one project recently but I found that I was missing FCPX's media management tools, the fantastic way of displaying your footage so that it's all there and skimmable giving you faster access to what you want, not to mention the very useful new publishing tool with Motion 5, which is just huge!!

My complaints (and I see that most if not all of your points came up during my own experience) were mostly to do with the fact that I was trying to superimpose my tried and tested ways of editing in FCP7 onto FCPX and I quickly learnt that that does not work.

Most if not all of your points are problems that can be worked around easily and that are to do with not fully understanding the new way of working in FCPX. And while I think of it, dragging from the centre circle in the transform mode will lock along an axis. All the answers to your points are ont Tinternet. Oh yes, another one is that you can create disc images for archiving projects so that FCPX doesn't load it on startup. Etc, etc.

When it finally clicks and you find the solutions to those annoying little quirks I think this new FCP will put a smile on your face.

Many thanks,

Boris J.


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Nelson Torres
Re: I need to vent
on Aug 31, 2011 at 12:17:18 am

Why do we need to learn a new way of working when the 'old' way was just fine? Reinventing the wheel by making it square and then having to learn how to compensate for it's corners seems like an exercise in futility. All they had to do was update the underpinnings of the software and leave 'The Magic Timeline' and the rest of that nonsense for the Harry Potter crowd.


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alban egger
Re: I need to vent
on Aug 28, 2011 at 5:04:37 pm

Most points are valid.

You can lock your clip´s time when moving vertically when pressing SHIFT while dragging the clip to another "track". At least works with me and even offers yellow guidlines to where the snappoints are. Maybe you have to have SNAP turned on for this which would only make sense?

Also if you want certain B-roll as connected clips in fixed positions you can put a secondary storyline on top of the primary one with a GAP all the way through. Then use the position tool "P" when moving in this storyline. It is also a way for multicam.

Versioning is a problem, because if you have a large event with thousands of clips and make timelines with hundreds of them the loading times get longer with each duplication. I hope they clean this up soon, because it gets annoying especially with the betalevel crashes, which wouldn´t be a problem if you hadn´t to wait for the restart of your events......



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Tom Wolsky
Re: I need to vent
on Aug 28, 2011 at 5:22:42 pm

I think Mark means dragging a clip in the Viewer to change it's position. Shift-drag to maintain vertical or horizontal movement does not work.

Could you explain the second paragraph? I'm not seeing this as a solution.

All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Coming in 2011 "Complete Training for FCPX" from Class on Demand
"Final Cut Pro X for iMovie and Final Cut Express Users" from Focal Press


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Scott Sheriff
Re: I need to vent
on Aug 28, 2011 at 5:55:00 pm

It's pretty clear this doesn't work for you. And since there was no trial or demo version, what you really should do is ask for your money back. Money is the only thing apple seems to understand, so everyone with an experience like yours should just get a refund. If they have enough of these 'customer service events', they may be a little more motivated to fix this. Leaving feedback is futile. They have a long history of ignoring it, and the release of X is the most glaring example. And if in the future they ever fix this, you can just buy it then. Who knows, by then the way apple works the price will go down. They also have another tradition of making early adopters pay heavily for the privilege, only to quickly release newer improved versions at much lower prices.

Slightly OT, I have heard people making the "summer isn't over" excuse for the lack of progress, notably that the end of summer is defined by the autumn equinox, which is true. However in America, which is where apple is headquartered, this often means Labor Day weekend, or when schools start back in session, not the equinox. Well school is back in session and all I hear is crickets. And the clock is running on Labor Day which gives them 8 days to get it done. Even the equinox is less than 30 days away.
On September 22nd, if there is no release of any significant update, I wonder what the new excuse will be?

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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Mark Morache
Re: I need to vent
on Aug 28, 2011 at 6:26:31 pm

[Tom Wolsky] "Could you explain the second paragraph? I'm not seeing this as a solution."

He's providing a workaround to my difficulty in pulling a chunk of primary storyline to a secondary storyline. If there are transitions in the clips, you can't pull the series of clips out of the primary storyline.

I was thinking that if I put my timeline into a secondary storyline, that I could roll my clips and not worry about the connected clips, but I couldn't easily do that. His idea of creating a secondary storyline with gap, then using the P tool would work for this.

Hopefully Apple will come up with a way to roll clips without affecting the connected clips.


[Scott Sheriff] "It's pretty clear this doesn't work for you."

Actually it works enough to make me keep pushing it. I like the color effects and the real-time nature of editing with mp4 footage. I also like the way psd files work with it. I can re-edit a psd and it automatically updates in FCX. Cool

[Scott Sheriff] "Leaving feedback is futile. They have a long history of ignoring it, and the release of X is the most glaring example."

Maybe. I can't believe that they don't read the feedback, and I expect that they even look at the forums to see what people are saying, even if they would never admit it. I'm sure they're dismissive of many of the rants from people who haven't made the investment to work with the program, beyond just noodling around.

In the end, we're the ones using these things, and if they don't work for us, they won't sell any. The FAQ, and the promotional videos on their website were a direct result of the uproar.

I'm still planning on buying CS5 while it's still half price. A higher-up at Adobe actually read one of my posts and emailed me, we had a chance to meet and show me what they want to be "the Photoshop of NLEs".

---------
I'm calling it FCX. They took the "pro" out, so I will too.
I'll reconsider after the first upgrade.

Mark Morache
Avid/Xpri/FCP7/FCX
Evening Magazine,Seattle, WA
blogging at http://fcpx.wordpress.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: I need to vent
on Aug 28, 2011 at 9:12:21 pm

[Mark Morache] "Actually it works enough to make me keep pushing it."

Mark, you are one brave soul. I've been following your issues and hit many of the same myself. These are all clear examples of what FCP X is very ill-suited for at this point in time. How's that bruise on your forehead? ;-)

[Mark Morache] " I can re-edit a psd and it automatically updates in FCX"

Except that aren't PSDs only imported now as flattened and not layered files? I have always been able to alter and re-save graphics files with FCP "classic". It would update them in the project and timeline. What's new about the way FCP X is doing this?

[Mark Morache] " I can't believe that they don't read the feedback"

They absolutely read them and this has been verified to me at numerous times by product management. On very, very rare occasions some folks have received a private follow-up from QA engineering if it's an issue that requires technical triage, like a show-stopping bug. They won't publicly respond and may or may not implement the feedback, but it is entered into a database, reviewed and prioritized.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Mark Morache
Re: I need to vent
on Aug 28, 2011 at 9:55:06 pm

What's different with psd files is that in fcp7 I had to send the clip back to the editor from the app, and it would relink unless I changed the number of layers. Fcx brings the files in flat, which I like. It gives me a thumbnail. I don't have to send the file to the editor from the application. I don't need to save alpha channels, just leave transparent holes. I can add or remove layers at will and when I tab back to fcx, the file relinks, the thumbnail updates and it works exactly the way I expect it to.

I rarely liked the way psd layers import into FCP. If I wanted to animate the layers separately, motion is much better at that.

Photoshop files in fcx: WINNING!

---------
I'm calling it FCX. They took the "pro" out, so I will too.
I'll reconsider after the first upgrade.

Mark Morache
Avid/Xpri/FCP7/FCX
Evening Magazine,Seattle, WA
blogging at http://fcpx.wordpress.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: I need to vent
on Aug 28, 2011 at 11:44:00 pm

[Mark Morache] " I had to send the clip back to the editor from the app, and it would relink unless I changed the number of layers."

Hmm... I normally work with PNGs in FCP and only use PSDs when I want layers, so our workflows are different. When I modify graphics, I never use the "edit in" functions and simply open the source PSD in Photoshop, make the mods and resave the PNG over the old one. FCP 7 relinks just fine and automatically.

[Mark Morache] "Fcx brings the files in flat"

But the whole advantage is that the layers can be beneficial, since they permit WYSIWYG recomposing when it's placed over video. Not for animation - simply optimal composition of the elements. So, for me, importing flat files that were layered is a definite negative.

[Mark Morache] " It gives me a thumbnail."

FCP 7 - place in bin, set bin to icon view.

[Mark Morache] " I don't need to save alpha channels"

In Photoshop "save as" PNG. This will also rasterize all type and layer effects in a single step. No need to mess with alphas at all.

Not, challenging, merely pointing out that at least for my workflow, FCP X isn't a big change and in fact a step backwards, when it comes to layers. But that's me, so I'm glad it works for you. It is, however, a change for change's sake. There should be a toggle on import to let you choose whether to flatten or preserve the layers in a compound clip.

Personally, I don't think this is a behavior based on planned design. In this version it represents taking the "cheap" way out. I say that because they are simply using the core image engine in the OS to import the image flat. That's the same engine that's used when a layered PSD file is displayed in Preview or Coverflow. No interpretation of layers there either. It sounds like they simply took advantage of what already existed, rather than properly writing a module to deal with PSD files.

[Mark Morache] " I can add or remove layers at will and when I tab back to fcx, the file relinks, the thumbnail updates and it works exactly the way I expect it to"

What's interesting about this is that you are modifying the source file, which is already tracked in the Events database. Yet when you do the same thing with a video file, the clip goes offline. Very odd and inconsistent behavior.

Cheers,
Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Mark Morache
Re: I need to vent
on Aug 29, 2011 at 2:42:53 am

Oliver… I'm pretty much self-taught in photoshop, so there are holes in my knowledge. I've never used png files, and I didn't know they could carry alpha channels.

When I say that FCX brings the files in flat, I meant that it brings in the layered file, and treats it as a flat file. I'm getting WYSIWYG composing, and I can still edit the layered file, with all of my new work updating to the imported psd file in fcx as soon as I hit save.

In the past I hated the way that FCP7 brought in the psd layers, so I would make a layered master, and a flattened copy that I would import into FCP. Two copies of every file. If I updated the file, I'd update the layered file, then re-export to update the flattened file.

Now I have one file. It has layers, but FCX treats it like a flattened file, gives me full WYSIWYG, and if I go back and tweak the psd file, it upgrades the copy in FCX. I can add and remove layers in the original, and it doesn't bother FCX one little bit.

I will certainly use the PNG files when I'm creating overlays in FC7 from now on, but I'm still making two files.

And I could never get a thumbnail in FC7 of a psd file. It always gave me the sequence icon.

The fact that I can modify my psd files and have them update in FCX is good and expected behavior. The fact that modifying original video files takes them offline with no way to relink them is unexpected and malicious, and I hope gets changed in the eventual update.

I recently edited a concert preview with several bands coming to a local festival. The band footage was all sorts of formats and resolutions, but I was able to drag everything, including youtube footage, directly into FCX, edit it all natively and output a prores file when I was done. I created overlays in photoshop that looked like bulletin boards, with pictures and graphics from the band, and a hole for the video to go it.

For once it worked exactly like I expected it to. There were no surprises or workarounds. The psd files were full HD, so even if the band footage was a little crunchy, the overall effect was high def.

This one goes up as a WIN in the FCX column.

---------
I'm calling it FCX. They took the "pro" out, so I will too.
I'll reconsider after the first upgrade.

Mark Morache
Avid/Xpri/FCP7/FCX
Evening Magazine,Seattle, WA
blogging at http://fcpx.wordpress.com


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Andreas Kiel
Re: I need to vent
on Aug 29, 2011 at 10:46:13 am

Mark,

You always (since PhotoShop 5) can save as layered TIFF. That will keep all informations a PSD file has. When you want to do changes on a layer, an effect, a style or with text, everything works like with a PSD file.
In FCP classic the file shows up as flat. In FCPX as well.

Spherico
http://www.spherico.com/filmtools


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Chris Harlan
Re: I need to vent
on Aug 29, 2011 at 4:10:08 pm

I use TIFF as my main still format as well. Very useful.


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Andreas Kiel
Re: I need to vent
on Aug 29, 2011 at 4:38:21 pm

As I said earlier, Layered TIFF is a very useful format.

Andreas

Spherico
http://www.spherico.com/filmtools


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Chris Harlan
Re: I need to vent
on Aug 29, 2011 at 4:54:06 pm

[Andreas Kiel] "As I said earlier, Layered TIFF is a very useful format.
"



Yes, I know. I was agreeing with you, which is why I commented on your comment.


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Oliver Peters
Re: I need to vent
on Aug 29, 2011 at 2:11:55 pm

[Mark Morache] "When I say that FCX brings the files in flat, I meant that it brings in the layered file, and treats it as a flat file."

Yes, I understand. That's what I mean as well.

[Mark Morache] "And I could never get a thumbnail in FC7 of a psd file. It always gave me the sequence icon"

Aah, yes. Because it's a sequence. You are correct.

[Mark Morache] " but FCX treats it like a flattened file, gives me full WYSIWYG, and if I go back and tweak the psd file,"

That's not really the same thing. For example, I do a number of retail spots that are price & item grocery commercials. The agency sends me PSDs for each product insert with the product graphic, price supers and logos on separate layers. These are to be keyed over a background image in FCP. Since these stay as layers in FCP, I can adjust scale and position of each layer if needed, once I see them against the background image. This is different than doing it in Photoshop, where I don't have the background video to refer to.

[Mark Morache] "I will certainly use the PNG files when I'm creating overlays in FC7 from now on, but I'm still making two files."

Correct. OTOH, this does give you an extra layer of protection ;-)

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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Jason Jenkins
Re: I need to vent
on Aug 30, 2011 at 4:55:24 am

[Mark Morache] "A higher-up at Adobe actually read one of my posts and emailed me, we had a chance to meet and show me what they want to be "the Photoshop of NLEs"."

Are you saying you got a sneak peek at a new NLE from Adobe?

Jason Jenkins
Flowmotion Media
Video production... with style!


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Mark Morache
Re: I need to vent
on Aug 30, 2011 at 5:19:38 am

I wish.

We didn't sign NDAs. They only showed us what is out, and teased us with the thought of what might come.

Somebody has to be the photoshop of NLE's. Apple isn't right now.

---------
I'm calling it FCX. They took the "pro" out, so I will too.
I'll reconsider after the first upgrade.

Mark Morache
Avid/Xpri/FCP7/FCX
Evening Magazine,Seattle, WA
blogging at http://fcpx.wordpress.com


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stephen knifton
Re: I need to vent
on Aug 28, 2011 at 6:33:51 pm

i'm creating a sizzle reel today, and trying to re-open 3 month old projects i created on fcp 7; even though i'm directing fcp right to the folder, i still have to reconnect media ONE FILE AT A TIME. after i do that, i stare out the window as the mighty 16-bits of processing power churns through my work. etc etc etc.

this is my last project on fcp, and nearly lost in all the barrage about fcp x is the fact that fcp 7 is still a year and a half behind on basic updates and functionality. it's slow, it has idiosyncracies galore,and the people that make it don't give a flying crap about their customers.

three more days left on the adobe fifty percent off sale, i'm getting mine this afternoon, and good riddance to fcp. i'm premiere pro, starting tomorrow.


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Bret Williams
Re: I need to vent
on Aug 28, 2011 at 10:12:54 pm

I don't know what's going on with reconnecting, but obviously that's not a normal experience. I would have to vote user error or odd workflow on that one.

Have fun with Premiere. I have had it since cs3 and have given it lengthy testing each version. For me and my workflow, it still doesn't cut it. Too many missing functions that I use daily in FCP. And, it's mighty 64bit processing is kinda useless without a new mercury cabable card. On my 2007 Mac pro I get all the real time full quality pro res I need in FCP 7. But Cs5 sometimes won't even play one track at full quality. It's titler is great though. And connecting with AE is too, but not enough to switch yet.


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Matthew Schickler
Re: I need to vent
on Aug 28, 2011 at 10:24:49 pm

[stephen knifton] "three more days left on the adobe fifty percent off sale"

Adobe site says the promotion is valid until October 31, no?


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Maxwell Federman
Re: I need to vent
on Aug 29, 2011 at 2:07:01 am

Adobe is a poor choice.

Try Media 100 Suite from Boris FX. It's the true choice for serious professionals and will run on your Apple systems.

Maxwell Federman
Owner

Capitol City Media
Austin, TX USA

http://www.capitolcitymedia.com


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Gary Huff
Re: I need to vent
on Aug 29, 2011 at 3:06:12 am

Why is Adobe a poor choice?


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Chris Harlan
Re: I need to vent
on Aug 29, 2011 at 5:51:40 am

[Maxwell Federman] "It's the true choice for serious professionals "

I like Boris and have nothing against Media100, but that is a pretty bold statement you are making there, don't ya think?


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Andy Mees
Re: I need to vent
on Aug 29, 2011 at 4:00:31 pm

The program will end Sept. 30, 2011.

http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/pressroom/pressreleases/201107/070111AdobeS...


Offer ends October 31, 2011.

http://www.adobe.com/special/offers.html




So somewhat muddy then!


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Matthew Schickler
Re: I need to vent
on Aug 29, 2011 at 4:45:09 pm

Quite muddy. I think they extended the deal recently. Maybe to coincide with Apple's promised first follow-on release to FCP X (capture some more disgruntled FCP users who were holding out hope for a decent update).

Anyway, I just pulled the trigger on the Adobe deal as a hedge against Apple's apparent apathy in the editor space. I've got the Adobe trial running along side FCP X with no problems so I plan to use both going forward.

Hopefully, Adobe will add Radeon/OpenCL support in the future. Right now, in terms of performance, I have to say that on a new iMac, Premiere cannot hold a candle to Final Cut Pro X. I literally never have to render anything in FCP X. It's actually pretty amazing but the software is so limited in other ways. In the end, if Adobe doesn't go all-in on Mac support in the future and the FCP X feature set doesn't improve, I may be forced to crossgrade my Adobe license and switch back to a Windows PC (ewwwww!!!) with CUDA.


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Shawn Miller
Re: I need to vent
on Aug 30, 2011 at 5:14:55 am

"I may be forced to crossgrade my Adobe license and switch back to a Windows PC (ewwwww!!!) with CUDA."

It seems like you're already anticipating a poor experience with Windows, why not just stay with OSX and switch to Avid, or something else that suits your needs? It's doubtful that Adobe will support Open CL anytime soon, so why put yourself through the pain?

Shawn



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Boris Jansch
Re: I need to vent
on Aug 29, 2011 at 11:31:41 am

I've been cutting with FCP X since it came out and initially I was in the same throw the baby out with the bath water camp.

A couple of months down the line, I'm loving the new way of editing despite having to learn a new way of editing. I also tried CS5.5 for one project recently but I found that I was missing FCPX's media management tools, the fantastic way of displaying your footage so that it's all there and skimmable giving you faster access to what you want, not to mention the very useful new publishing tool with Motion 5, which is just huge!!

My complaints (and I see that most if not all of your points came up during my own experience) were mostly to do with the fact that I was trying to superimpose my tried and tested ways of editing in FCP7 onto FCPX and I quickly learnt that that does not work.

Most if not all of your points are problems that can be worked around easily and that are to do with not fully understanding the new way of working in FCPX. And while I think of it, dragging from the centre circle in the transform mode will lock along an axis. All the answers to your points are ont Tinternet. Oh yes, another one is that you can create disc images for archiving projects so that FCPX doesn't load it on startup. Etc, etc.

When it finally clicks and you find the solutions to those annoying little quirks I think this new FCP will put a smile on your face.

Many thanks,

Boris J.


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Leighton Oosthuisen
Re: I need to vent
on Aug 30, 2011 at 6:18:27 am

Its Aug 29! Still nothing.
Im finding no support for the many issues I am having. Mostly crashes, but also cannot run FCPX now on my MacPro.
Seemed to happen when adding title to beginning of timeline; oops, sorry project. (Btw since when is a timeline a "Project")
Cleaned out fonts. Still same problem.
Also, when deleting a still and then deleting resulting gap, FCPX crashes - everytime. Why?

Is there anyone that knows how to deal with this?

Preferences? Where are they?

Im really trying to make this work - some of the improvements are great.
Love skimming; speed; drag/drop music, stills etc. AWesome!

Back to the crashes I go!


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