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Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish

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Gerald Baria
Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 24, 2011 at 1:44:41 am

I have just recently been visiting Cow all because of FCPX, for guidance and perspective from all the industry experts that I use to think proliferates much here with all your sigs and first-paragraph-introduction-to-tell-people-what you did-so-what-you-say-matters. I thought this community is about the development of video creativity...but recently, as I visit this section everyday, reading all of the same arguments being reiterated in several distinct incarnations but ultimately meaning the same frame of thought over and over again, I am reminded of the constant bickering between Apple vs. Android fanboys on tech sites that I usually frequent too.

And the above title is what I generally get. FCPX is far too simple to look at/use that any dude who's been editing her cellphone videos on iMovie can now edit professionally too. And the complicated structure of traditionally UId NLEs are what pro's is all about. Complicated. Complex. Requires a thousand trainings and decades of experience to master. And all this who do not respect its complications are amateurs who does not matter.

And these arguments eventually boils down to Apples apparent forthcoming decisions on majorly overhauling OSX and macbook pros, and making high powered iPads. And a lot of people are still surprised, even self proclaimed fanboys. Well I have been extensively reading Apple news every single day of my life since I first saw the iPhone's inertial scrolling demo of the iPhone at Apple's keynote and I believe I can share a proper perspective as to why their decisions are coherent and have been in place since Job's return to Apple more than a decade ago.

Ever since he started Apple on his garage on his twenties he had one major dream that haven't changed one bit uo to this very moment: MAKE COMPUTING ACCESSIBLE TO ALL.

Simplicity.

Power in the hands of the user, not the other way around.


Here is a quote from his 1985 Playboy interview:

"PB: Maybe we should pause and get your definition of what a computer is. How do they work?

SJ: Computers are actually pretty simple. We're sitting here on a bench in this café. Let's assume that you understood only the most rudimentary of directions and you asked how to find the rest room. I would have to describe it to you in very specific and precise instruction. I might say, "Scoot sideways two meters off the bench. Stand erect. Lift left foot. Bend left knee until it is horizontal. Extend left foot and shift weight 300 centimeters forward…" and on and on. If you could interpret all those instructions 100 times faster than any other person in this café, you would appear to be a magician: You could run over and grab a milk shake and bring it back and set it on the table and snap your fingers, and I'd think you made the milk shake appear, because it was so fast relative to my perception. THat's exactly what a computer does. It takes these very simple-minded instructions––"Go fetch a number, add it to this number, put the result there, perceive if it's greater than this other number"––but executes them at a rate of , let's say, 1,000,000 per second. At 1,000,000 per second, the results appear to be magic.

That's a simple explanation, and the point is that people really don't need to understand how computers work. Most people have no concept of how an automatic transmission works, yet they know how to drive a car. You don't have to study physics to understand the laws of motion to drive a car. You don't have to understand any of this stuff to use Macintosh––but you asked [laughs]

Link: http://gizmodo.com/5821429/that-time-in-1987-when-playboy-interviewed-steve...

Here's an explanation of why the iPad is the future: http://gizmodo.com/5506692/ipad-is-the-future

Google and link up all of the presupposed facts from that article and realize Apple's ultimate direction. As S. Jobs himself said, they "we are trying so hard to eliminate the file system." Steve Jobs was the first to offer GUI based interface for personal computers..so that instead of memorizing command lines, you can move a pointer on the screen and draw a circle. Now as the software and computing power progresses, Jobs finally realized his ultimate computer dream. A device anyone, from a 1 year old baby to a 99 year old grandma can pick up and immediately use without any learning curve whatsoever. All you get is a sea of icons, you want to do something, click it, and the screen morphs into whatever it is that you are current doing. The hardware "disappears". All you get is a multifunctional device that morphs into whatever you're using it for the moment, mail, message, compass, video player etc.

And then there's iCloud. One location for all our data, and all of our Apple devices will be able to access information from it with their native interface on whatever device your using. You know what this means. Final Cut Pro X editing on your iPad, in full power. Then you put it down, pick up your edit on your iMac. These devices does not even need to be as powerful as each other, as the rendering will be done remotely either on the cloud or on your own personal mini servers at the post house.

And this explains everything. From the metadata based file organization, to the self-contained "app" metaphor of FCPX, its visual metaphored interface (clip connection,magnetic timeline etc), to the plans of thinner macbook pros, to retina display iPads, and the iPadification of OSX Lion. In the future, very near future, these devices will be irrelevant, they will be just windows, "mobile interface" for our centralized data. And that is why FCPX is what it is. IT IS THE FUTURE. A first step, so that when the time comes that all tape based capture and delivery are irrelevant, and all is digital and metadata based, it would have evolved enough that it will be the industry standard at that point. While all the other companies are just scrambling to make their reboot to cope. Fine it is not usable by all today, but there are those whose could already. Events coverage and web video delivery are big businesses too you know.

Quobetah
New=Better


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Herb Sevush
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 24, 2011 at 2:03:43 am

What you seem to fail to realize is that it isn't computers. or NLEs that are hard to master, that require thousands of hours of training and apprenticeship - it's editing that is hard, the way playing a violin is hard, the way sculpting marble is difficult, the way you have to spend years to attain a black belt - and no computer ever made would have helped Davinci paint any better. The most time consuming function for an editor is thinking - this was as true in DW Griffith's time as it is today.

On this forum we argue about functionality and paradigms, but a lot of this discussion is about the technical in's and out's of file creation. Most of the editors here can create good work with anything from a scissors to a Discreet smoke, given a minimum of training. But, sadly for you it seems, all of them spent years learning how.

There's no free rides, even on an Ipad.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Gerald Baria
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 24, 2011 at 2:38:49 am

"Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
by Herb Sevush on Aug 24, 2011 at 10:03:43 am

What you seem to fail to realize is that it isn't computers. or NLEs that are hard to master, that require thousands of hours of training and apprenticeship - it's editing that is hard, the way playing a violin is hard, the way sculpting marble is difficult, the way you have to spend years to attain a black belt - and no computer ever made would have helped Davinci paint any better. The most time consuming function for an editor is thinking - this was as true in DW Griffith's time as it is today.

There's no free rides, even on an iPad."

I thought that was the main point of FCPX, make editing easier so you could focus of the more important thing, "telling the story". Its on their ads right? At the end of the day, its about that creation in your head and how you turn that into a finished file. I completely agree with that.

"On this forum we argue about functionality and paradigms, but a lot of this discussion is about the technical in's and out's of file creation. Most of the editors here can create good work with anything from a scissors to a Discreet smoke, given a minimum of training. But, sadly for you it seems, all of them spent years learning how."

I assume that, so why is a lot of people keep bitching about FCPX over and over and over again, shouldn't you just spend enough time with it that you'll be able to do your edits as easily or even easier than you could with PPro,FCP7 or Avid?

Quobetah
New=Better


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Herb Sevush
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 24, 2011 at 2:44:16 am

"I assume that, so why is a lot of people keep bitching about FCPX over and over and over again, shouldn't you just spend enough time with it that you'll be able to do your edits as easily or even easier than you could with PPro,FCP7 or Avid?"

Why should I prefer FCPX to PPro or Avid? It is the least functional, most untested, least compatible NLE out there. Why shouldn't I make my life easier and move to a faster, better, more robust featured program?
Am I missing something, do I owe something to Apple? As a matter of fact they just EOL'd FCP7, a decision that's going to cost me a lot of time and money. So why on earth do they get primacy?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Gerald Baria
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 24, 2011 at 5:16:35 am

"Why should I prefer FCPX to PPro or Avid? It is the least functional, most untested, least compatible NLE out there. Why shouldn't I make my life easier and move to a faster, better, more robust featured program?
Am I missing something, do I owe something to Apple? As a matter of fact they just EOL'd FCP7, a decision that's going to cost me a lot of time and money. So why on earth do they get primacy?"

Your not part of the editor demographic that will be financially sensible to "immediately" move to FCPX because of the fact that your heavily invested in FCP 7 gear, (plug ins,hardware etc.). Thats fine. But for the rest of the other guys, those that are about to go inoa transition period of upgrading their systems, those new businesses that have an al digital workflow, and all the new editors that want to get into the game and looking for a system to invest into, in short, those who are thingking about their future, FCPX should be a great option. And all the wounded group that companies like yours belong in should not jump into every single inquiry about it because a false image is being generated. It is such a powerful software. Given that there are currently stability issues, minimal plu ign support, file sharing capabilities but those have been promised to be fixed, AND WHEN THEY DO, what becomes of your previous opinion about FCPX?! Suddenly it becomes the fastest most powerful editimg software that exists...and all the new editors that youll be hiring, those exposed on an all digital workflow, will like it.

All Im saying is we should not be too quick to dismiss it. Apple has proven time and time again that it could rock an industry and be successful in it. Initially there is uproar and shock, then after some time its the greatest thing ever. The iPad have just recently made the largest PC manufacturer give up, and every other competitor fail...and to think a week after its release every major gadget site laughed at it for being a large iPod touch.

Quobetah
New=Better


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Shawn Miller
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 24, 2011 at 7:14:03 am

"Your not part of the editor demographic that will be financially sensible to "immediately" move to FCPX because of the fact that your heavily invested in FCP 7 gear, (plug ins,hardware etc.). Thats fine. But for the rest of the other guys, those that are about to go inoa transition period of upgrading their systems, those new businesses that have an al digital workflow, and all the new editors that want to get into the game and looking for a system to invest into, in short, those who are thingking about their future, FCPX should be a great option."

I think you may be missing a bigger point here. For smaller post houses, individual producers/contributers and younger artsist, there are already very good and promising options available... ones that work today in traditional and cutting edge workflows. No need to wait for some unspecified time in the future when a v.1 application will be as capable as what we have today. If I'm not missing anything now, what's my incentive to even try FPCX?

"Given that there are currently stability issues, minimal plu ign support, file sharing capabilities but those have been promised to be fixed..."

This statement does not inspire confidence... :-)

"...AND WHEN THEY DO, what becomes of your previous opinion about FCPX?!"

I'll be thinking "wow, FCPX is finally working. Good thing I didn't jump on it when it wasn't working."

"Suddenly it becomes the fastest most powerful editimg software that exists..."

That's assuming all other NLEs will stay in their current state... my bet is that they won't. Adobe, Avid, Sony, Boris and other aren't exactly playing catch up with FCPX as it is.

"...and all the new editors that youll be hiring, those exposed on an all digital workflow..."

You should be aware that all digital workflows aren't new. I (personally) haven't shot on tape for almost five years now... I think the last time I edited source from tape was three years ago.
I suspect that there are thousands of producer/editors like me. BTW, I have hired editors who have had little or no expereince with tape... (again) no need to wait for FPCX to mature.

"...The iPad have just recently made the largest PC manufacturer give up.."

If you're talking about HP, I'm not sure you understand what really happened... HP is spinning off it's consumer PC business. Professionals will still have the option to purchace powerful workstations. If not from HP, then other vendors still exist.

Shawn



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Gerald Baria
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 24, 2011 at 10:06:36 am

"If you're talking about HP, I'm not sure you understand what really happened... HP is spinning off it's consumer PC business. "

Actually I completely understand, as I mentioned I have this little obsession with gadget news.:) It was mentioned in their earnings call that the " Tablet effect is real" and they are feeling it. Majority of their revenue is on mobile pcs, majority of those mobile pc prospective buyers who will use it for simple non intensive tasks are now just buying tablets specifically iPad. If they fought, invest on webOS they are posed to loose significant amount of cash for an unforseeable profitabke future which may or may not be successful, and given the example of all competing tablets no one is successful except Apple. They cant afford to risk that much money and effort so they decided to follow a different business, Enterprise software, so they bought Autonomy,while they still have cash. PC business will be spun off, i.e sold to another vendor which may or may not make it successfull. In other words, they gave up. And its the giant ipod touch's fault.

Quobetah
New=Better


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MIke Guidotti
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 25, 2011 at 12:17:17 am

[Gerald Baria] "no one is successful except Apple."

Yeahhh ummm

According to this weeks Nielsen ratings Android devices account for 11% more of the post paid mobile market than iOS devices.

Pretty sure it was the combo of the two that put the WebOs out of the picture...


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Herb Sevush
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 24, 2011 at 12:53:44 pm

"Given that there are currently stability issues, minimal plu ign support, file sharing capabilities but those have been promised to be fixed"

Promises, promises, I don't live on promises. Post again when they actually are fixed.


"AND WHEN THEY DO, what becomes of your previous opinion about FCPX?! Suddenly it becomes the fastest most powerful editimg software that exists"

IN what way is it faster than PPro, that has been 64 bit for almost a year, handles all formats without rendering, is integrated seamlessly with Photoshop and AE and can actually output an EDL.

In what way is it faster than Edius or Sony Vegas?

What is so special about FCPX other than the name Apple that comes on the box. And while Apple is hugely successful in many fields, it's record is pretty dismal when it comes to applications programming. What makes you think FCPX won't be the Motion of the compositing field - an interesting quirky program that is miles behind After Effects in almost every way?

"your not part of the editor demographic that will be financially sensible to "immediately" move to FCPX because of the fact that your heavily invested in FCP 7 gear, (plug ins,hardware etc.)"


But I am going to move, I'll be migrating to a new platform by next spring. Whatever my investment in FCP7, it is already sunk. It will cost me the same to switch to FCPX as it will to Avid. So these costs, which you seem to think are having an effect on my decision making, are in truth totally beside the point.


"But for the rest of the other guys, those that are about to go inoa transition period of upgrading their systems, those new businesses that have an al digital workflow, and all the new editors that want to get into the game and looking for a system to invest into, in short, those who are thingking about their future, FCPX should be a great option."

As long as you don't need multi-cam, don't have to deliver to PBS or other Broadcasters that require tape deliverables, don't have to collaborate with Colorists and Audio Post Houses, don't need to view your video on reference monitors to know what it actually looks like, yes FCPX is a fine option. No better than some others, but it does have the Apple logo.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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TImothy Auld
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 24, 2011 at 11:19:11 am

duplicate post


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TImothy Auld
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 24, 2011 at 11:21:45 am

What you seem to fail to realize is for a good many of us FCP X as it exists now will not serve within our present workflows. It's not a choice not to use it, it simply won't work for us in its present state. We couldn't use it if we wanted to. It's not yet up to the task. And i personally can't afford to wait to see if Apple has the intention of making it so.

bigpine


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Michael Aranyshev
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 24, 2011 at 7:05:57 pm

[Gerald Baria] "shouldn't you just spend enough time with it that you'll be able to do your edits as easily or even easier than you could with PPro,FCP7 or Avid?"

Twenty minutes is about enough for anybody who's been editing full time to realize that FCPX is totally screwed up. I've read enough posts on this forum to see that most people finding FCPX easier to work with than FCP or MC are either casual editors or people who have the luxury to work under very little pressure. In my opinion anybody finding original FCP interface complicated should get less demanding job and stop waisting clients' time and money.

I made this post extremely rude on purpose. I'm fed up with this all this arrogant "creative power to the people" bullshit. If you want to say "You're a bunch of insecure old farts so shut up" have the courage to say so. There are better chances for creativity in strong and direct language than in heaps of second hand banalities.


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Scott Sheriff
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 24, 2011 at 7:55:36 pm

[Michael Aranyshev] "I made this post extremely rude on purpose. I'm fed up with this all this arrogant "creative power to the people" bullshit. If you want to say "You're a bunch of insecure old farts so shut up" have the courage to say so. There are better chances for creativity in strong and direct language than in heaps of second hand banalities."

That is funny that you say that. When I read some of the posts complaining about the old timers and how we are afraid of the revolution that's coming, I picture a 20-something hipster, sitting alone, wearing a Che Guevara t-shirt, in a trendy urban coffee shop, typing it on an ipad, while his Macbook has a vimeo of some unheard of band going on it.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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Gary Pollard
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 25, 2011 at 12:02:40 am

[Scott Sheriff] "That is funny that you say that. When I read some of the posts complaining about the old timers and how we are afraid of the revolution that's coming, I picture a 20-something hipster, sitting alone, wearing a Che Guevara t-shirt, in a trendy urban coffee shop, typing it on an ipad, while his Macbook has a vimeo of some unheard of band going on it."

SOS

____

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"



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Gary Huff
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 24, 2011 at 2:13:22 am

[Gerald Baria]And then there's iCloud. One location for all our data, and all of our Apple devices will be able to access information from it with their native interface on whatever device your using. You know what this means. Final Cut Pro X editing on your iPad, in full power. Then you put it down, pick up your edit on your iMac. These devices does not even need to be as powerful as each other, as the rendering will be done remotely either on the cloud or on your own personal mini servers at the post house.

At this time, on average, I shoot at least 16GB of footage per shoot (I do a lot of DVCPRO HD and soon to be AVC-Intra). I do a lot of DSLR shoots that average around 40-ish GB.

Are you telling me that I will be uploading all that to the iCloud?

Please.


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Gerald Baria
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 24, 2011 at 2:32:39 am

Eventually you may want to for the power and convenience when all other pieces are in place. If your running a mac, it will be uploaded in the background anyway. And internet will only get cheaper. Im thinking forward here.

Quobetah
New=Better


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Scott Sheriff
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 24, 2011 at 4:25:51 am

LOL, because we all know that productions are always located where food, water, power, and high speed net is always conveniently located on set.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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Gerald Baria
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 24, 2011 at 5:22:34 am

But all those productions are edited and finished on post houses, after being backed up on 5 secret servers right!? Because what you just shot is a multimillion dollar commodity.

And Im not saying everything will be cloud based "only", of course you can still save local and edit there, but your file system is formatted by the OS when you get into an internet area, its backed up automatically to icloud in the background. So when your client on the other side of the contry calls up to check up on your work, he can just pull in his iPad access the project and make his notes, or revisions.

Quobetah
New=Better


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Gary Huff
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 24, 2011 at 5:24:22 am

[Gerald Baria]And internet will only get cheaper. Im thinking forward here.

Tell that to the Canadians. And we may not be that far off.


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MIke Guidotti
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 25, 2011 at 12:29:20 am

[Gerald Baria] "Eventually you may want to for the power and convenience when all other pieces are in place. If your running a mac, it will be uploaded in the background anyway. And internet will only get cheaper. Im thinking forward here.

Quobetah
New=Better"


I'll work from the bottom up.

New=new but it doesn't always = better.

Second, what ISP do you have that the rest of us don't know about? The fastest non-commercial ISP I have found only has 2.0 mBps upload speeds (FYI the advertised speeds are DOWNLOAD speeds). That's slower that USB 1.0 and it has taken 10 years to get that fast! Why would I want to have to wait a week for all my footage to upload to "the cloud" before I can edit it? Apple will probably claim it as their property once it's on their servers anyhow! HA!


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illya laney
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Sep 1, 2011 at 3:53:48 am

A certain movie I can't name shot over 4 TB of footage on EPIC in one day.

twitter.com/illyalaney

nextLAB Mobile
SpeedGrade DI
Resolve
da Vinci 8:8:8 Renaissance
Color
Truelight



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Carsten Orlt
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 24, 2011 at 4:13:57 am

Thanks Gerald for a really great post. might not all come true but I think you're not far off. Lots of hurdles still to jump but the direction is obvious.

Really interesting happened the other day. A distant friend coming over and not having seen my edit suite. She was really disappointed to not see a million monitors and pieces of equipment as I just reduced everything getting ready for the slim lined world of FCP x. So very true that a lot of people still relate professional to complicated.

Interesting times.

Carsten


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Scott Sheriff
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 24, 2011 at 4:32:57 am

[Carsten Orlt] "So very true that a lot of people still relate professional to complicated."

I guess it would depend on what profession you're in. And most professional don't consider what they do complicated. It is just simply what has to be done to work at a certain level in the industry.
If you want simple, there is always Windows Movie Maker, imovie, and that other new one that just came out.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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Carsten Orlt
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 24, 2011 at 5:24:25 am

:-)


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Gerald Baria
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 24, 2011 at 5:31:43 am

And the profession that were in is in a massive change due to the proliferation of all digital capture + distribution. Digital is opening up this whole new side of things where things can be done simpler, with less equipment. Yeah I know its scaring those old established post houses heavily invested on equipment, but that has already passed. Events coverage now uses cameras that cost $700 and making the same or or money, than those with $3K video cameras. And they deliver quality on par with those other guys. FCPX is the last piece of the puzzle...Its cheap, powerful and has tons of potential for improvement.

I may not understand the sentiments of those old business owners suddenly being overtaken by newbies in the industry with cheaper gear, It must hurt a lot, but thats reality. Man If I was manufacturing floppy drives back in the day apple releassed a mac without one, Id be furious too. But instead of closing, I will start investing on CD manufacturing for my futures sake.

Quobetah
New=Better


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Scott Sheriff
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 24, 2011 at 6:09:57 am

[Gerald Baria] "I may not understand the sentiments of those old business owners suddenly being overtaken by newbies in the industry with cheaper gear, It must hurt a lot, but thats reality. Man If I was manufacturing floppy drives back in the day apple releassed a mac without one, Id be furious too. But instead of closing, I will start investing on CD manufacturing for my futures sake."

LMFAO!
It certainly takes a special kinda' person to celebrate the demise of the upper echelon of an industry that you have seem to have an interest in working in. Especially in a public forum. A real career move sure to be appreciated by colleagues, clients and employers alike.
BTW, where did you get your MBA?

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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Glen Hurd
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 24, 2011 at 7:54:07 am

First time I'd have to disagree with you Scott :) What demise? From newbies? Is he serious? I've never seen a newbie do anything besides waste his life away for $10/hour doing wedding videos, or run around shooting misty scenes of ducks on water, with pirated music beds that he can post on Vimeo to tout a website, or running around getting coffee and doing errands in exchange for getting sage advice on how to really tell stories. I've never heard of a single professional editor anywhere express fear over an approaching newb. I guess they have a place at the bottom - where we all started. But that hardly effects the middle or the top - not for another 5 or 10 years. And by then, I doubt the editing profession will be talking in "storylines" and "events."

A newb with FCP X is like a newb with a one-button mouse. Sure it's simple. Now, can you draw me a picture of a rock? There you go! Very nice. Very nice.

The only newb that has my feathers ruffled is Apple. They are total noobs - at writing pro software. Anyone looked at Aperture lately? Oh sure, they just keep adding feature after feature - not!

Considering their new interest in incorporating gestures into Lion, I have a gesture here for them. The one-finger salute. Put that in your iCloud and smoke it.


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Gary Pollard
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 24, 2011 at 12:33:04 pm

I was a newbie, and so was everyone else on this board.

And old hands were trashing our methods.

I still remember the first time I shot in the "magic hour".

"There's no magic hour. There's just day time and too dark."

____

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"



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Glen Hurd
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 24, 2011 at 10:33:12 pm

I'll respond to you directly, considering the original content of your post :).

I wasn't belittling newbs for being newbs. Poor Gerald stumbled into a landmine by saying some of us were upset becauseFCP X ,and technology in general, was allowing newbs with cheaper equipment to "overtake" our jobs. It wasn't just the mythical belief in software that bothered me, but the same clichéd accusation that those who despise FCP X are doing it only for emotional reasons. Getting a little tired of that.
So I swung back hard, pointing out the complete uselessness of a newb trying to take clients away from someone who is established.

Look. I met a young man who'd finished 4 years at a local production school, and he was frustrated by his limited choices. I introduced him to FXPhd and tutored him on Shake and introduced him to PFTrack. I helped him plan shoots and lent him equipment. I told him he needed to accelerate his knowledge as fast as he could - past basic editing- or he was doomed. A year later, and he started working at one of the more prestigious houses in NY and already has his name on a movie credit. It's not like I despise newbs. I help them. And my first step in helping them is to tell them that they are doomed - if they do nothing.

But I will concede that I came off too strong. It was 4 in the morning, so who knows how rational I was being.
And of course we were all newbs once. I just don't know how many thought they were going to take over the industry because they had a cheap camera and some software. If they did, they were sure in for a rude awakening.

As to your "magic hour" comment, I didn't understand what you were trying to say. But it did remind me of the classic newb magic-hour-mistake. Of course I know from experience. Heh. If you color-balance during magic hour, you don't get magic hour. The point of magic hour is to capture the warmer tones, so you keep your white balance at its default setting. All that warmth and the glowing skin-tones kinda go away once you drop your white balance down to the high 3000s.
Not that you've ever done that, but it's a classic example of having gear and a basic education, and having no idea how to apply the subtleties of the business.

I do apologize for being so heavy handed on the above post. It wasn't necessary.


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Scott Sheriff
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 24, 2011 at 6:52:17 pm

[Glen Hurd] " First time I'd have to disagree with you Scott :) What demise?"

I was using the term demise to paraphrase what Gerald was saying.
However, I would say there has been a downsizing of the industry at the upper end. Both with a loss of facilities, and a trend of lower rates. But this has little to do with FCP, or the noobs. They just think it's about them, isn't everything?
The reality is this started long before FCP, or even Avid came along. Affordable analog gear started that trend back in the 80's. And one of the biggest places this has hurt is in broadcast. Dropping ad revenues have caused a reliance on automation and 'plug 'n play' gear. I think this is why hourly wages have remained stagnant and stations are having a harder time keeping/attracting qualified workers. So they hire one guy like you or I, and then the rest are these low wage newbies. This is like the chicken and the egg, and I don't know if you can directly attribute this to the noobs.
IMO where the noobs hurt rates the most is at the mid level, or what we used to call industrial. It's not that their 'mad skills', but a perfect storm with a huge supply of people with zero overhead willing to work cheap, a down economy, and a class of clients that are new to production and aren't aware that they have a better choice.
I do think that trend is changing. Myself, and several in my immediate circle of production folks have seen an increase in these gigs in the past 6 months, which is ok. When you don't live on one of the coasts, big high end jobs don't walk in the door everyday. Most of the work is clients migrating from in-house/DIY, or from those who had been using these low/no overhead coffee shop guys, and want to up their game.


[Glen Hurd] "Considering their new interest in incorporating gestures into Lion, I have a gesture here for them. The one-finger salute. Put that in your iCloud and smoke it."

Ah, yes. The digitus impudicus. One of the earliest forms of digital communication, with data compression.
Lion, 'the cloud', X, updates that are nothing more than adding app store access to the OS, dropping Shake, EOLing FCS3, the list of apple giving us the finger just keeps getting bigger. I's about time to give it back.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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Gary Huff
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 24, 2011 at 12:15:18 pm

[Carsten Orlt]I just reduced everything getting ready for the slim lined world of FCP x. So very true that a lot of people still relate professional to complicated.


What did you "reduce"? What do you mean by "slim lined world"?


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Carsten Orlt
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 24, 2011 at 1:01:06 pm

I do our in-house doc editing, so no client looking over my shoulder and no 'a million' formats for me.

A: Getting rid of all the tape based stuff, or at least putting it to the side and out of view. Haven't even connected it yet.

B. getting rid of the old CRT broadcast monitor and making space just for a good 2nd comp monitor.

C. Thinking instead of doing everything myself, actually getting the expertise of specialist involved. So need for proper CC monitoring etc.

D. All compis still working now, but I know the next machine will be one mac mini and one thunderbolt raid. Couple of monitors and your done. Finally stop with all this specialty i/o hardware which always gets obsolete when the next standard of pci/thunderbolt/firewire or whatever comes out. Don't want to think about how much money I sank into technology that was dead after a couple of years.

I was never a fan of software that has a million buttons all doing the same thing or just in different combinations. Editing is actually quite a simple process. Everything else is FX . No need to have that in the editing software. Yes I know FCPx is not talking to the rest yet. If it never does I will not update and use FCP 7 quite happily. But I'd rather use FCPx.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 24, 2011 at 1:36:35 pm

"I know FCPx is not talking to the rest yet. If it never does I will not update and use FCP 7 quite happily. But I'd rather use FCPx."

Just curious as to why your only choice is FCPX or FCP7. Why not look at PPro for your tapeless workflow. It's a much easier migration than FCPX in terms of both training and file compatibility.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Carsten Orlt
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 24, 2011 at 11:22:16 pm

Because apart from Photoshop I personally do not like Adobe software, specially the UI. Way to many buttons, symbols, etc.
Another big factor is that Adobe's accounting policy to inflate overseas prices (I pay double! in Aus than you guys pay in the US) is ridiculous. Plus the fact that I would need another 5 K for new i/o and GPU...

Just after FCPx came out I had a good look at Avid and Adobe and don't like either of them. I did actually own an Avid for 5 years 12 years ago and when I saw 5.5 I felt nothing much has changed :-).

FCP 7 works fine and because we do in house only, we can transcode to ProRes to have everything working smoothly.

So I can understand why a guy like Walter with a big facility has to change if he can't wait, but for us it's not necessary.

All the best
Carsten


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MIke Guidotti
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 25, 2011 at 12:53:24 am

[Carsten Orlt] "B. getting rid of the old CRT broadcast monitor and making space just for a good 2nd comp monitor."

Yikes! Most of my clients are watching the videos we make on large LCD and Plasma TVs which exist in the ATSC (read HDTV) color space. Computer monitors do not accurately display what the product will look like on those displays because they have a different color space. Additionally, computer GPUs are designed to drive monitors. Most video playback devices like a blu-ray player or a JPEG 2000 broadcast server output video in a completely different fashion.


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Scott Sheriff
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 24, 2011 at 7:03:26 pm

[Gary Huff] ""slim lined world""

Could be any or all of these:
On camera mic for audio.
No tripod.
No lights.
No proper workstation with reference monitors for audio/video.
No office, just a noisy coffee shop for client meetings.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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Carsten Orlt
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 24, 2011 at 10:51:51 pm

:-)


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Gerald Baria
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 25, 2011 at 12:37:59 am

[Scott Sheriff] "Could be any or all of these:
On camera mic for audio.
No tripod.
No lights.
No proper workstation with reference monitors for audio/video.
No office, just a noisy coffee shop for client meetings.
"


So rude.

Quobetah
New=Better


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Scott Sheriff
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 25, 2011 at 2:41:36 am

[Gerald Baria] "So rude."

Man up.
Every one of those are from posts where the person was saying how unnecessary those things are, and bragging how they don't need them to do high quality work. Often in the context of those that think these are essentials must be elitists.
If you look in this forum, Art of edit, FCP, and business and marketing they can be found in quantity.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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Gerald Baria
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 25, 2011 at 4:27:40 am

Wow..those are the most noobs of the noobs. Maybe 1 week old newbies who have absolutely no idea or interest in this field prior to plunging in. Never been to those sections, point taken.

Quobetah
New=Better


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Walter Soyka
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 24, 2011 at 11:54:19 am

A professional application should not sacrifice control, nuance, flexibility, or capability for simplicity.

Speaking generally, simplicity is a benefit for consumers, not professionals. Professionals will tolerate complexity as a necessary tradeoff for the feature set they require to do their jobs well.

In other words, as you said:

[Gerald Baria] "Power in the hands of the user, not the other way around."

I'm not saying that a professional application must be complicated; I am saying simplicity should not be the primary design consideration, and the extent to which FCPX aims for simplicity at the expense of control, nuance, flexibility, or capability is the subject of much of the discussion here.



[Gerald Baria] "New=Better"

I very strongly disagree with this statement, especially in the context of this forum. While I think that FCPX advances some great new ideas (like clip connections and pervasive metadata), they're bundled together with some questionable design choices (the self-collapsing relative timeline and the color board). I don't think it's true that every new concept in FCPX is an improvement over what came before.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Tim Wilson
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 24, 2011 at 12:10:23 pm

[Gerald Baria] ""If you're talking about HP, I'm not sure you understand what really happened... HP is spinning off it's consumer PC business. "

Actually I completely understand, as I mentioned I have this little obsession with gadget news.:) It was mentioned in their earnings call that the " Tablet effect is real" and they are feeling it....


But they're not feeling it in their workstation business. They have a bigger share of workstation sales than anyone on the the planet, and it's growing.

They are feeling the heat in their gadget and consumer business, not the pro workstations. which is why they're spinning it off. No need to let the losses in that area get in the way of their growing profits at the high end: beefy hardware, with wall-to-wall support, and a whole division of the company exclusively focused on meeting the needs of film and TV production professionals who can afford $5K+ machines.

Running Windows of course, but plenty of Mac pros are using Windows boxes for things like SCRATCH, digital cinema packages, etc....aside from the large market of creative pros using Windows. My point being that HP has a play in this market, and is MAKING that play in a bigger and bigger way -- not a smaller and smaller one.

They'd rather focus on workstations, and let Apple have the rest.

In other words....

HP is getting rid of gadgets and consumer doo-dads in order to focus exclusively on the needs of high-end pros.

What a concept!


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Glen Hurd
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 24, 2011 at 12:36:11 pm

You nailed it Walter.

Look up "dumbing down" on wikipedia, and here's the entry.

"Dumbing down can point to a variety of different situations, but the concept always involves a claim about the simplification of culture, education and thought; a decline in creativity and innovation; a degradation of artistic, cultural and intellectual standards, or the undermining of the very idea of a standard; and the trivialization of cultural, artistic and academic creations."

I'd like to say more, but it sounds bitter.


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Tim Wilson
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 24, 2011 at 1:12:49 pm

[Gary Pollard] "I was a newbie, and so was everyone else on this board."

And if you're doing it right, you're ALWAYS a newbie about something.

I wrote a piece for Creative COW Magazine a little while back, called Hello. My name is Tim. I am a Newbie.

Worth another read, if I say so myself.


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Glen Hurd
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 24, 2011 at 5:23:45 pm

[Gerald Baria] "I may not understand the sentiments of those old business owners suddenly being overtaken by newbies in the industry with cheaper gear, It must hurt a lot, but thats reality."


Tim/Gary - I wasn't trashing newbs for being newbs. I was trashing the concept that newbs armed with FCP X/cheap gear can overtake an industry. When you were newbs did you think you could?

Would anyone suggest that a newb with a cheaper camera is a threat to someone established with his F3 or Red? The point should be that the more experienced people are already drawing and competing for clients who demand quality. So why would a cheap editor be different? These are the clients how are well aware that poor quality not only fails to draw, but actually causes damage.
Where is the newb in that picture? Seriously.

Final Cut Pro going from $1000 to $300 isn't newsworthy. That had no effect on this industry - whatsoever.
If you want to understand Apple's audience, it's not the financially strapped. That has never been their focus.
It is those who find FCP 7 to be intimidating. FCP X is the one-button mouse of the editing universe.

What should be newsworthy is that acquiring a cheap copy of "pro" software doesn't turn a newb into a ninja. It just puts him on the same long path we've all been on - with the disadvantage that he won't be able to talk to anyone outside the FCP X clique without constantly having to explain himself.


I feel sorry for him.


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Scott Sheriff
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 24, 2011 at 7:45:51 pm

[Glen Hurd] "I was trashing the concept that newbs armed with FCP X/cheap gear can overtake an industry. When you were newbs did you think you could?"

No. This is the same as trying to sink the boat you are sitting in. Which is one of the most perplexing, and prevalent traits of the newbies and the cult of X.
They spend a huge amount of time bashing the 'Pros' and complaining about workflows and UI's that are "too complicated". Perhaps they have no plans to become a mid-level or high end professionals, or use anything other than a basic workflow. If that is the case, why bother getting in the biz? Why would anyone that is at the beginning of their career want to lock themselves into the entry level phase of it permanently? And to rail on and on in a public forum that this is the future,you hope for, and are actively working to achieve? What kind of future is that? To pine for a future where all work is simplified and dumbed-down, the video equivalent of ditch digging, makes no sense. At least not to me.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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Glen Hurd
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 24, 2011 at 10:01:17 pm

One day a boy and his father were walking along the beach.

The boy noticed a crab catcher carrying a bucket of crabs. The crab bucket did not have a top on it. He asked his father why the crabs were not able to escape.

His father said, "If there was only one crab in the bucket it would certainly escape. However, when there is more than one crab in the bucket, if one tries to crawl out, the other crabs grab hold and pull it back down so that it will share the same fate as the rest of them. ”
Crabs are such newbs! :)

As for pricing - I don't know everyone's situation, but I look at my business as one giant ongoing negotiation. I make a big sacrifice to form a relationship that will barely pay my bills, and use that as my stepping stone to acquire customers that will pay me better. My pitch isn't about production. It's about how they can make money with mass communication and the importance of capturing their audience through the seduction of vision and sound. I think it really helps to have a philosophical understanding for what works, and a psychological grasp of how to steer a viewer. Because when you talk to a client in those terms, they grasp that what you are bringing to the table is strategy - not a list of equipment. And strategy is what wins wars. People will pay for that. Over and over once they see it works. I had one client ask me to do a new commercial for them, because the old one was outdated and they needed to stop running it. During the time it wasn't running, he said it was costing him $180,000 a month in business. Not running my commercial. Getting feedback like that - often by mistake from the customer - is priceless.

I learned to focus on that from a boss I had a long time ago. He was always extracting information from people without them even realizing he was doing it. Now he's a mortgage banker.


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Gerald Baria
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 25, 2011 at 12:49:49 am

[Glen Hurd] "Would anyone suggest that a newb with a cheaper camera is a threat to someone established with his F3 or Red? "

Well in our country, I have been seeing a spike on documentaries, ads, and shows being done by small production groups of 20-somethings using go-pros DSLRs and iMacs, and the quality has never been better. Our wedding videographers armed with 5DMKIIs and 60Ds and 7Ds dominate WEVA awards every year. Yes they could have hired those with F3s or REDs but why should they if theses smaller guys are more cost effective...and generally more creative with their outputs.

Quobetah
New=Better


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Glen Hurd
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 25, 2011 at 6:38:39 am

OK. I think I understand you.
Where I am, cheap gear and cheap editing solutions have been around for what seems like a long time. Yes, it keeps getting better. And so does the "pro" gear. But FCP X at $300 is not going to start a new revolution. We've already had it. It was already cheap at $1000.

So instead of competing with the wedding/event people - who must number in the millions now - some of us choose to compete where clients have more demanding expectations. And in that climate of expanding expectations, FCP X fails because it does not allow me to deliver what my clients want. If you are seeing an increase in documentaries in your area, are they airing on television? If so, those people producing those documentaries need to meet certain standards set by the stations. And FCP X doesn't let us check those standards as we edit. That's a big problem for most of us.

If your clients are not asking for more than FCP X can deliver, then you are lucky. Use FCP X. Enjoy it - whatever. But if your clients start to ask for more, or you decide you want to move into more difficult teritory, then FCP X will have to be replaced - and you will have to learn a whole new workflow.

Is that really what you want to do? Or do you trust Apple that much?


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Alan Okey
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 24, 2011 at 2:12:49 pm

[Walter Soyka] "A professional application should not sacrifice control, nuance, flexibility, or capability for simplicity."

I agree wholeheartedly. I'd also add functionality to the list.

Why was it necessary to remove the ability to customize the GUI in FCP X and Motion 5 as was possible in FCP 7 and Motion 4? Why must we be restricted to what is ostensibly a single monitor interface? While it's possible to use a second monitor in FCP X, it's a far cry from being able to organize workspaces for particular tasks as is possible in FCP 7. I like to have my bins (browser) and scopes on the secondary display. Why was that ability removed? What purpose does it serve?

Why was it necessary to remove support for broadcast monitoring, or why was it deemed a feature unnecessary for the first release? Why was it necessary to dumb down the color correction interface and create a completely non-standard GUI that has nothing in common with any other industry standard video CC tool? Are color wheels really that difficult for new editors to fathom?

Why was it necessary to change the terminology of bins/sequences/projects to events, etc.? Despite the merits of metadata, I don't understand why Apple needed to arbitrarily rewrite the established lexicon of NLE terminology. It's almost as if they went out of their way to create something as foreign and perplexing to established editors as possible. Even if the new system works well and has advantages, what was the need to invent a new language? Who was asking for this? What purpose does it serve?

It's clear from listening to Larry Jordan's interviews that Apple did not create FCP X in a vacuum without input from the film/broadcast industry. They actively chose to ignore the advice they received. Knowing that, it's understandable why those who work in film/broadcast might feel slighted as a result. That makes Apple's decision to preview FCP X at the NAB supermeet even more perplexing. Why would they go out of their way to address a film/broadcast audience if their plan was to ignore them as a user base? It seems that the poorly handled release of FCP X and the immediate EOL of FCP 7 has helped to foster an environment in which an antagonistic false dichotomy of "high end" pros vs. non-broadcast pros ("new media" pros, DSLR pros, etc.) is played out daily in this forum. It didn't have to be this way, and it is not constructive. Apple could easily have created a more inclusive application without sacrificing functionality or alienating its legacy user base. Why it chose not to remains a mystery.


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Chris Walsh
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 24, 2011 at 8:28:18 pm

I completely agree. Professional=Flexible, Consumer=Simplified/Inflexible. This is true in most product categories, beyond NLE's and even software.

The main reason I haven't jumped into FCPX is that it does not seem flexible enough for me...though it may be for other editors. For most of my projects, I don't have the last word, my client does. The client doesn't care whether it's difficult or easy to make the change, they just want their changes as quickly as possible.

As a one-man band, I build my projects to make revisions and iterations easy, not necessarily for raw speed. My project last week went through 13 versions in three days, and the last two versions lifted an outake from an old project to create a new open and intro. I was able to open that old project side by side with the new one, step through my select timeline, and copy the three relevant clips into my new project. That's not an optional, "nice to have" feature for me, it's a necessity.

So I keep coming back to this forum (and the FCPX techniques forum) to look for news and reports of successful use of FCPX in the kind of short-turnaround, client-driven situations I work in. I hope that FCPX becomes as flexible and powerful as FCP 7 has been.

Chris Walsh

http://www.musicfog.com
Silver Spring, MD
Final Cut & AVID MC5
Former Windows User and edit* lover


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Richard Cardonna
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 25, 2011 at 4:26:35 pm

Could this be the beggining


http://www.moviestorm.co.uk/hub/docs

Maybe we are all wrong and this is the future: Think avatar,rise of planet of the apes. All it needs are realike images.


Maybe films in the future could be made like music using loops.

Richard


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Gary Huff
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 26, 2011 at 2:19:46 am

I don't think so. I think there will always be an audience for real actors and real sets.


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Richard Cardonna
Re: Complicated means Pro : Simplified is Dumb/Amateurish
on Aug 26, 2011 at 11:18:44 am

I am also sure but the ability to use virtual actors that look real and maybe even dead actors brought back can be very a compelling temptation in all aspects. The future actors could be like andy serkis

http://blog.moviefone.com/2011/08/18/andy-serkis-rise-of-the-planet-of-the-...

Virtual sets and props have already become very comun.

Just imagine a future team doing a film all on computers connected very much like today's colaborative editing setups.

I feel that artistic,cost,greed and practicality will be the moving forces behind this.


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