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Log and Transfer in FCPX

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Steven Pustay
Log and Transfer in FCPX
on May 13, 2011 at 11:01:45 am

To All :

Yesterday I watched a Filmmaking webinar featuring PHilip Hodgetts outlining his best guess as to what the new FCPX will be like.

He seems to confirm a suspicion that I've heard already that Log and Capture will be eliminated from FCPX and only Log and Transfer options will exist. I guess my question is if Apple is precluding tape injest do I have any options. I've got 4 Sony HDR FX1s - mini dv. Will I be able to capture to the new software? Can I use a capture card ... can I buy some sort of AJA card or some other way to still capture my footage.

Or is apple forcing my hand to by new camcorders with non-tape systems? Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Steve


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Michael Kammes
Re: Log and Transfer in FCPX
on May 13, 2011 at 2:04:38 pm

For baseband ingest, the 2 most popular cards are by Blackmagic and AJA. Both solutions come with BASIC capture programs. Not the most elegant, but at least it *should* be functional.

As for firewire (HDV, DV, etc.) your guess is as good as mine. If Apple makes no such provisions, it may be time to look for a 3rd party capture software.

~Michael



.: michael kammes mpse
.: senior applications editor . post workflow consultant
.: audio specialist . act fcp . acsr
.: michaelkammes.com
.: twitter: @michaelkammes
.: facebook: /mkammes

Hear me pontificate: Speaking Schedule .


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Andy Mees
Re: Log and Transfer in FCPX
on May 13, 2011 at 2:28:58 pm

Blackmagic Design's Media Express comes bundled with their I/O cards and boxes .. and its looks to be far from BASIC:
http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/decklink/software/

AJA's VTR Xchange is certainly somewhat more basic tho. Matrox's Vetura apps are still very basic.


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Michael Kammes
Re: Log and Transfer in FCPX
on May 13, 2011 at 2:48:55 pm

IMHO, Compared to a full featured integrated (with the NLE) capture application, yeah, it's kinda basic.

For me, the biggest is limited metadata support for use within the NLE...that feature alone is worth it's weight in gold when capturing from baseband.

~M



.: michael kammes mpse
.: senior applications editor . post workflow consultant
.: audio specialist . act fcp . acsr
.: michaelkammes.com
.: twitter: @michaelkammes
.: facebook: /mkammes

Hear me pontificate: Speaking Schedule .


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Andy Mees
Re: Log and Transfer in FCPX
on May 13, 2011 at 2:58:02 pm

IMHO, Compared to a full featured integrated (with the NLE) capture application, yeah, it's kinda basic.

Fair enough. Am always interested in another perspective. Would be interested to hear your expanded thoughts on that with reference to the existing capture tool in FCP7. You do note that specifically you'd miss the extended metadata that you're getting from baseband capture in FCP vs using a 3rd party tool (like Media Express). Can you expand on that?

Cheers
Andy


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Craig Seeman
Re: Log and Transfer in FCPX
on May 13, 2011 at 10:12:03 pm

[Michael Kammes] "MHO, Compared to a full featured integrated (with the NLE) capture application, yeah, it's kinda basic"

Blackmagic Media Express is free software that comes with every DeckLink card. Media Express lets you batch capture and play back 2D and dual stream stereoscopic 3D in DPX, ProRes, uncompressed YUV and RGB, DVCPRO HD and MJPEG files. You can even create your own playlist. Media Express also supports CMX EDL import and export, frame accurate deck control via RS-422, and will even insert and assemble to tape! Media Express is fast, accurate and easy to use and works on Mac OS X, Windows and Linux. You can even grab still frames directly from your deck and save them as perfect digital quality still images. That’s a complete solution for capture and playback!

That seems a bit more than "basic" to me.



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David Burch
Re: Log and Transfer in FCPX
on May 27, 2011 at 8:55:39 pm

What about us Kona users?


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Andy Mees
Re: Log and Transfer in FCPX
on May 28, 2011 at 2:35:45 am

AJA already offers VTR Xchange as a standalone capture app for Kona users ... hard to believe that they would not take that as a working base and rise to the challenge of filling any future need.


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Scott Sheriff
Re: Log and Transfer in FCPX
on May 13, 2011 at 6:36:43 pm

Just keep FCS2 or 3 on your system and use the L&C in it.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com

I have a system, it has stuff in it, and stuff hooked to it. I have a camera, it can record stuff. I read the manuals, and know how to use this stuff and lots of other stuff too.
You should be suitably impressed...


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Mike Jeffs
Re: Log and Transfer in FCPX
on May 13, 2011 at 6:39:13 pm

I for one don't mind at all if apple drops log and capture. If they do i'm 100% sure that 3rd parties will pick up the slack. I'm sure AJA or Blackmagic will create far better untilities then there current ones.

One of the major complaints we had with log and capture is once you start captureing, boom FCP is locked up, you couldn't do anything else. which in why about 2 years ago we invested in a telestream pipline for our SD Tape ingest. This system lets you start ingesting a tape and almost immeditly (like 10 second lag) you can start editing that clip in FCP and as more is captured more shows up in the file. Its super slick.

So if Apple does drop capture i'm sure other compaines will start to add features like this.

Mike Jeffs
Video Coordinator
BYU-Idaho


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Mark Suszko
Re: Log and Transfer in FCPX
on May 13, 2011 at 7:27:08 pm

I like Phil a lot, but this idea that Log and Capture is dead is after all, only a guess at this point. I hope that's not true, as our shop will be based on DVCPro25, 50, and HD for some time to come yet.

I'm sure something can be worked out with a third-party application, but it seems to me we shouldn't have to look for a third party app for something like that.

By the look of all the other features we DO know about: i.e. the color correction, facial recognition, motion-stabilization, logging and audio cleanup during ingest - that to me implies the new FCP has more than enough processing power to handle realtime live or tape ingest, because a log and transfer function brings the data in way faster than real time. If you can do zero to sixty in five seconds, I'll assume zero to ten isn't a problem, not that the car is forbidden to drive below sixty, or it explodes. Woah.

So I would not expect capturing a slower data stream like live from tape or a live camera input to be a huge deal to the software, if it can do all the other things. Such a limitation is, I'm going to assume, less a technical limitation than a strategic decision. And we've seen that happen with Apple decisions before, so there IS the chance Phil is right...

Now, that's all just talk. I know nothing. I'm willing to be schooled on this, and I'm like everybody who hasn't signed an NDA, just guessing, myself. Just playing the "if-then" game. It's fun to play fortune teller and all, but If I can skip all my favorite treats for Lent, I can also wait 'til June for the actual info.

Until then, there is no point in making plans in depth with incomplete information, outside of the entertainment value. If I could make such predictions with a high degree of certainty, I'd be typing this, resting the keypad on the flawless lower back of a Russian-Ukranian Supermodel/beach volleyball player, from the shade of the rooftop helipad on my yacht in Bora-Bora.

"Opulence: I jumps in it!"


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Andy Mees
Re: Log and Transfer in FCPX
on May 14, 2011 at 2:30:08 am

[Mark Suszko] "typing this, resting the keypad on the flawless lower back of a Russian-Ukranian Supermodel/beach volleyball player, from the shade of the rooftop helipad on my yacht in Bora-Bora."

I wondered where she'd got to.


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Arnie Schlissel
Re: Log and Transfer in FCPX
on May 14, 2011 at 6:38:29 pm

There's no ingest. Right. It will be sold with all of the media you'll ever want to use, including footage you haven't shot yet. Actually, we were indirectly told that there is ingest, because we were told that there is (optional) automatic stabilization and color correction on ingest.

Honestly I find this type groundless, irresponsible of statement from Hodgetts, and similar wild conjectures from others who are equally out of the know to be appalling.

They're making authoritative pronouncements based on what they didn't see. This is the same logic that tells us that the sun orbits a flat earth.

I don't mind if these guys want to promote themselves by giving webinars and issuing white papers, but they should do so from a position of actual knowledge, not conjecture and speculation. That's simply irresponsible.

Read the "Kremlinology" posting on my blog for a more detailed rant on this.

Arnie
Post production is not an afterthought!
http://www.arniepix.com/


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Sohrab Sandhu
Re: Log and Transfer in FCPX
on May 14, 2011 at 10:03:39 pm

[Arnie Schlissel] "There's no ingest. Right. It will be sold with all of the media you'll ever want to use, including footage you haven't shot yet. Actually, we were indirectly told that there is ingest, because we were told that there is (optional) automatic stabilization and color correction on ingest."

Calm down & read the post again.

Its not Log & transfer that we are talking about, its Log & Capture.

2.66 GHz 8-core, ATI Radeon HD 4870,
FCS 3, AJA Kona Lhi



"The creative person wants to be a know-it-all. He wants to know about all kinds of things: ancient history, nineteenth-century mathematics, current manufacturing techniques, flower arranging, and hog futures. Because he never knows when these ideas might come together to form a new idea. It may happen six minutes later or six months, or six years down the road. But he has faith that it will happen." -- Carl Ally


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Craig Seeman
Re: Log and Transfer in FCPX
on May 14, 2011 at 10:23:16 pm

Yes, Philip Hodgett's position, as I understand it (I've followed his blog and saw the webinar) is the file based ingest (Log and Transfer) is there. That in fact FCPX metadata handling takes much better advantage of that metadata in the file as well as creating new metadata, than ever before.

On the other hand Tape ingest (Log and Capture) will likely be handed off to third parties (according to Hodgett's estimation as I understand it). Actually to me this opens the doors to more professional work environments since I really don't want to tie up my NLE with tape input. Certainly such utility should be able to batch capture including conforming a time line as needed as well as go back to tape and include deck control as well.

Look at where Blackmagic is going with Media Express and I don't doubt that they may expand on its features further once FCPX is out the door. Matrox continues to develop Vetura Capture and I'd expect AJA do likewise. All this, IMHO, expands tape capture features rather than locking everyone into the very limited features that FCP's Log and Capture had.

In fact with Thunderbolt I'd expect to see more things along the lines that Telestream is doing with Pipeline through Ethernet now. Pipeline, which does the encoding to whatever (ProRes for example) in the box, sends the video into the computer or video server via ethernet and wraps it in an open ended Quicktime wrapper so you can actually start editing with the video while it's still importing.

The most extreme example of the above I've heard about is someone taking in a four camera concert shoot live and editing it (almost like live switched) in FCP so that the first edited was done moments after the end of the concert.

I the (near) future, Thunderbolt may well handle multiple live or tape feeds and FCPX could edit that while the multiple sources are still feeding (maybe without the need for the open ended QT wrapper?). Legacy tape will be around for a long time. I expect it will be handled in ways most of you are just not thinking about.



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Arnie Schlissel
Re: Log and Transfer in FCPX
on May 14, 2011 at 10:32:22 pm

What evidence is there that there's no tape ingest? None.

Why don't all the self-proclaimed experts of FCP-X calm down & wait for Apple to release specs & other details?

Base predictions on facts not rumors.

Arnie
Post production is not an afterthought!
http://www.arniepix.com/


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Craig Seeman
Re: Log and Transfer in FCPX
on May 15, 2011 at 12:07:07 am

[Arnie Schlissel] "What evidence is there that there's no tape ingest? None. "

The point is that there is nothing to wring hands over because whether or not FCPX has tape capture, third parties will support it. Some people believe that if FCPX does not handle tape, it's no longer "Pro."

Hodgetts has said up front in his blog and his webinar that he has no inside knowledge, that he's making speculation, that he has a documented history of a good (although certainly not prefect) track record of predicting Apple's development with video related software.

BTW, for a time he was saying that the next FCP would happen well after Lion came out and late 2012 or later was the more likely date so he's not infallible, nor does he claim to be.

I might add that there are many features within the current FCP that are eclipsed by third parties and that may continue with FCPX and that may be the case with tape capture as well.



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John Pale
Re: Log and Transfer in FCPX
on May 15, 2011 at 4:19:43 pm

I pointed out not long ago that Blackmagic is releasing a major update to Media Express in June (around the release of FCPX) . Some of the new features they are including would be odd to include if people could just capture in their NLE. I mean not many people use Media Express as their primary capture tool currently. But yes...I am just speculating.


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Gregory Butner
Re: Log and Transfer in FCPX
on May 19, 2011 at 10:57:03 pm

I find it unlikely that they will drop log and capture. Many broadcasters still output to a tape format and that requires that final cut control a deck. I imagine that if it can output to tape still, then it wouldn't make a lot of sense for it to drop the input from tape. If Apple dropped Log and Capture from the software, you would see most users that require tape based workflow opt not to upgrade. I doubt that Apple would be so dumb.



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Craig Seeman
Re: Log and Transfer in FCPX
on May 19, 2011 at 11:31:58 pm

I think you need to read about
Blackmagic Media Express
http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/software/

It's capabilities exceed Log and Capture complete with RS-422 deck control and CMX EDL import and export. I've heard they're going to have a major upgrade to it in the very near future too.

Yes we need tape capture and print back to tape and it must batch conform to the edit. It doesn't have to come from Apple though. If FCPX abandons Log and Capture it doesn't mean Apple abandoned the hooks into far superior utilities.



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Kenyon Blower
Re: Log and Transfer in FCPX
on May 23, 2011 at 6:02:51 am

I must say, if log & capture is not included in FCP X, it is a deal breaker for me. I edit the AMA Supercross show for CBS & SPEED. We take the signal from the production truck and cut the show down to time. We usually have 7 hours from racing to uplinking to the network. In that time, we also have to output the show to DVCPRO-HD. There is not time to add any other steps in the process.

Kenyon Blower
Location Edit. LLC
Dual FCP On-location Editing
with KONA 3, IO-HD, KI Pro
D5, DVCPRO-HD, Digi-Beta
locationedit.com


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Andy Mees
Re: Log and Transfer in FCPX
on May 23, 2011 at 9:01:27 am

We usually have 7 hours from racing to uplinking to the network.

So what do you for the last 3 hours, play cards? ;-)

Seriously tho ...

I must say, if log & capture is not included in FCP X, it is a deal breaker for me

This doesn't make sense. If Log and Capture is handled by Application A vs Application B what difference does it make. Application B, dedicated to the task, may be better than using Application A. And why aren't you using Application C anyway? Given your workflow it would seem to be a far better choice, then maybe you really could spend the last 3 hours playing cards.

Cheers
Andy


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Michael Aranyshev
Re: Log and Transfer in FCPX
on May 23, 2011 at 1:46:50 pm

Below is something I wrote long ago about what L&C really should had been:

First of all get rid of that pseudo-overlay that pops up when you capture. It's a shame. Simply make data entry fields non-editable like the Name field during capture. They still must be "live" though - during batch capture Current, Duration, In, Out et al must reflect the parameters of the clip being captured. During Capture Now In should reflect the starting TC and Duration should be calculated on the fly.

Add the equivalent of CHAR ON switch found on professional VTR's to the Log And Capture window. Overlay incoming video with current TC, Cueing source material, Capturing... text in BIG BOLD TYPE so it's clearly visible when you glance at the screen from across the room. That's where an editor or assistant is often happen to be during long batches. Make "time data" and "time data & status" selectable. Make "On video", "On black" and "Separate Window" options.

Allow Markers during capture. This must've been there from the beginning.
Enable Marker shortcuts during logging. Next Marker, Previous Marker, Edit Marker, Delete Marker must work in Log and Capture just like in the Viewer or Canvas.

Enable editing from Log and Capture to the Timeline. F9, F10 should insert, overwrite into the sequence current clip in the L&C window as an offline clip. With modifier (Option?) they should perform edit and start capturing media.

Add Eject command. Both button and ejecting after all clips on a tape are captured.


If we had this kind of L&C and Apple removed it there would be riots. With current L&C most of the FCP users wouldn't probably notice.


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Mike Jeffs
Re: Log and Transfer in FCPX
on May 23, 2011 at 2:06:15 pm

I feel like our facility and others like it (Which I think are more of then people think) is apples target market. As acquisition goes we are 100% tapeless. That doesn’t mean that we don’t have old tape archive, but everything new we generate is tapeless. You are hard press to find any NEW camera out there that shoots tape. I think apple see this and understands that their product needs to evolve and change with the times, to fit our needs. For any of our old tape stock we have a separate app for ingesting. To me I have no need for tying up an editor just to ingest some footage it’s a waste of a resource. The losing of log and capture may impact one man shops because they don’t have other resources and all they have is a tape deck and final cut, but again I seriously doubt that those people have 1000s of hours of tape archive like we do. I have estimated we have 300 Terabytes of SD DVCpro Tape in our archive.
Another thought going along with the changing times. I don’t hear anyone rioting that our new macs or pc don’t have 5.25” or 3.5” floopy drives in them. Technology changes and workflows need to change. We can’t just sit on our larrels and do things the same old way if so you’ll be surpassed but other upstarts hungry for your clients.
As for Kenyon if I’m reading your post right you are editing down 7 hours of super cross footage after you have captured it. To me that seems terrible inefficient, get something that will allow you to capture and edit simultaneously then there is no waiting for capture to complete before edit begins. The app or hardware will pay for itself from saving all that time wasted on waiting for capture.

My ramblings

Mike Jeffs
Video Coordinator
BYU-Idaho


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Craig Seeman
Re: Log and Transfer in FCPX
on May 23, 2011 at 3:38:06 pm

[Mike Jeffs] "get something that will allow you to capture and edit simultaneously then there is no waiting for capture to complete before edit begins."

Yes, Telestream Pipeline allows that now with FCP. It wraps the video coming in, in an open ended Quicktime container so you can edit the material while it's coming in. I suspect with Thunderbolt that more devices like this will come on to the market.

I think the "faster horse" analogy is true. That Kenyon equates "extra steps" to "time" may be an example. So many people simply can not fathom the new workflows possible. I see a lot of very limited thinking going on resulting in demands for old workflows improved rather than newer faster ways of handling things even including tape ingest and export.

Personally I think third parties are going to create innovation with tape handling that Apple simply can not do with a built in Log and Capture because anything Apple does can't possibly specific to new I/O devices that will come to market.

Editing tape while it's still ingesting is one. Exporting without tying up the NLE may well be another.



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David Burch
Re: Log and Transfer in FCPX
on May 27, 2011 at 9:02:29 pm

Honestly, I can live without Log and Capture, so long as there are good 3rd party alternatives (that won't cost me an arm and a leg). What I am more interested in is outputting to tape, a la the current "print to video" or "edit to tape" features. Without that, it really would be a deal-breaker. That, and if they get rid of multiclip editing.


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