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Spreading Rumors

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MIke Guidotti
Spreading Rumors
on Aug 22, 2011 at 1:45:03 pm

I think it is OK for people to knock or praise a product that they have used and know. On the other hand I think it is bad for people to spread rumors either for or against something when they have no actual knowledge of it. When people speak for Apple (as if they worked for them) saying that Apple will or will not be adding features in the future it really does not help anyone since this is pure speculation on their part. Apple needs to be telling the consumers what their plans for the future are, and they should be the only people doing this.

Never in my life have I seen so many people step up to the plate and pretend to be mouthpieces for a company or product. It is very cult-like behavior and I do applaud Apple for creating possibly the most brand loyal consumers in history.


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Eric Jurgenson
Re: Spreading Rumors
on Aug 22, 2011 at 1:48:43 pm

Did you drink the cherry or the lime Kool-aid?



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Craig Seeman
Re: Spreading Rumors
on Aug 22, 2011 at 2:02:42 pm

[MIke Guidotti] "When people speak for Apple (as if they worked for them) saying that Apple will or will not be adding features in the future it really does not help anyone since this is pure speculation on their part. Apple needs to be telling the consumers what their plans for the future are, and they should be the only people doing this."

Apple spoke
http://www.apple.com/finalcutpro/faq/
http://alex4d.wordpress.com/2011/07/06/notes-from-apples-london-pro-briefin...



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Craig Seeman
Re: Spreading Rumors
on Aug 22, 2011 at 2:05:18 pm

And Alex4d investigated as well
http://alex4d.wordpress.com/2011/07/18/secret-fcpx-xml-multi-user-editing/



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Gary Huff
Re: Spreading Rumors
on Aug 22, 2011 at 2:36:22 pm

Wishful thinking, nothing more.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Spreading Rumors
on Aug 22, 2011 at 2:56:02 pm

[Gary Huff] "Wishful thinking, nothing more."

Based on evidence. Some parts of which may coincide with Apple's comments.



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David Roth Weiss
Re: Spreading Rumors
on Aug 22, 2011 at 7:01:09 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Apple spoke
http://www.apple.com/finalcutpro/faq/
http://alex4d.wordpress.com/2011/07/06/notes-from-apples-london-pro-briefin....."


Craig,

Were the links you provided above designed to show that Apple has defined their strategy for their uncertain customers?

If that was your intent, I don't think the point is well exemplified by those two posts, especially in the case of the Apple Rep whose nine points are mentioned in the Alex4D blog. Of the nine points made, many are already MIA (missing in action), and that has (IMO) served only to inflame Apple's audience, not to mollify them. At least I know it has that affect on me...

In particular, numbers 1 & 2 below, XML support (the "hooks") and the ability for enterprise customers to buy new seats of FCP 7, have both touted quite heavily all over, yet neither has been delivered or mentioned again by anyone from Apple. One of the first rules of sales is, "Always deliver more than you promise." Apple is consistently failing in that regard, and so the few statements they have made are IMO exacerbating the very issues they were designed to quell.

1. FCP XML in/out is coming via 3rd party soon…no FCP 6/7 support project support coming ever it seems…

2. Ability to buy FCP7 licenses for enterprise deployments coming in the next few weeks…

3. FCPX EDL import/export coming soon…

4. FCPX AJA plugins coming soon for tape capture and layback…capture straight into FCPX bins.

5. XSAN support for FCPX coming in the next few weeks…

6. FCPX Broadcast video output via #Blackmagic & @AJAVideo coming soon…

7. Additional codec support for FCPX via 3rd Parties coming soon…

8. Customizable sequence TC in FCPX for master exports coming soon…

9. Some FCPX updates will be free some will cost…



David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new tutorial: Prepare for a seamless transition to FCP X and OS X Lion
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/FCP-10-MAC-Lion/1

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Spreading Rumors
on Aug 22, 2011 at 7:41:57 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "many are already MIA (missing in action), and that has (IMO) served only to inflame Apple's audience, not to mollify them."

I agree. People wanted Apple to speak. They spoke even if it included information that would make some people unhappy. At least they're were blunt honest on those points. I suspect that might mean they're blunt honest on the others as well but anything can be "selective truth."


[David Roth Weiss] "the ability for enterprise customers to buy new seats of FCP 7"

I was told by one facility owner they were able to do just that. I can't verify that independently but that's what I was told in person.

[David Roth Weiss] "Of the nine points made, many are already MIA (missing in action"

Apple said update coming in "the summer" so I expect we'll know what's there by late September. I have heard from a couple of developers which might indicate Apple is late on the APIs but that's one reason why developers hate to give dates. I also believe FCPX was released in an "incomplete" state but can only speculate why the timing was what it was.

[David Roth Weiss] "One of the first rules of sales is, "Always deliver more than you promise." Apple is consistently failing in that regard, and so the few statements they have made are IMO exacerbating the very issues they were designed to quell. "

And I've said that Apple's marketing has been pretty bad regarding how FCPX has been handled. I think it's pretty much a damned if you do and damned if you don't at the moment for the marketing dept which is why that's fallen silent.

They were accused of many things and people demanded that they speak. They did. Maybe it's not all good news but they did speak. We'll just have to wait to see what's delivered on the first update. We'll have to wait to hear more from developers regarding the APIs.

As to what's delivered, programers need the time that they need and sometimes things take more time than anticipated... which is why they don't like giving dates.



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Andy Neil
Re: Spreading Rumors
on Aug 22, 2011 at 4:43:22 pm

Here you go. My double-response for your double-post.


I find it truly amazing how many Apple apologists there are on this forum.

See, that's ironic because I find it amazing how many Apple complainers have been whining about Apple apologists. The people slamming Apple outnumber "apologists" 2-1 on this forum and yet anyone who maintains an optimistic point of view strains the credulity of the "haters."

You say that both sides need to stop pretending that they speak for Apple when it comes to speculation on what features will or won't be added, but you only slam the "cult-like" fanboys. Where's your derision for the people saying that Apple isn't planning on adding multicam back in, or any true "professional" features because they are only interested in making gadgets and toys? You know, the vast majority of posters. There is as much truth to any of that as there is to those saying that FCPX will have all the pro features back by the end of the year.

Andy

http://www.timesavertutorials.com

http://www.timesavertutorials.com


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Gary Huff
Re: Spreading Rumors
on Aug 22, 2011 at 5:57:19 pm

Andy, can you please provide a link where a post states that Apple will not be adding these features. Please make sure it is phrased as a statement of fact, not "Apple won't be adding multicam until 2 or 3 versions away" or "I don't think Apple will ever add multicam because..."


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Spreading Rumors
on Aug 22, 2011 at 6:05:23 pm

[Andy Neil] "the people saying that Apple isn't planning on adding multicam back in, or any true "professional" features because they are only interested in making gadgets and toys?"

that's a bit of a strawman.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Andy Neil
Re: Spreading Rumors
on Aug 22, 2011 at 6:31:43 pm

"that's a bit of a strawman."

I'm not making an argument in favor of FCPX, I'm asking for equality for haters and fanboys alike. One cannot say things like, "I think it is bad for people to spread rumors either for or against something when they have no actual knowledge of it," and then, in the same post say, "Never in my life have I seen so many people step up to the plate and pretend to be mouthpieces for a company or product," and have any claim to unbiasedness.

Andy

http://www.timesavertutorials.com


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TImothy Auld
Re: Spreading Rumors
on Aug 22, 2011 at 6:39:07 pm

Like it or not an information vacuum spawns rumors.

bigpine


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Spreading Rumors
on Aug 22, 2011 at 6:53:52 pm

well thats all fine but when I say you made a strawman I mean you made this statement:

[Andy Neil] "the people saying that Apple isn't planning on adding multicam back in, or any true "professional" features because they are only interested in making gadgets and toys?"

the first part ..."the people saying that Apple isn't planning on adding multicam back in.." is an unstated argument, nobody made this point to you or anyone else on this thread, you're refuting something unstated in order to make the person you are arguing against seem more unreaonable.
then you put it together with this, "....or any true "professional" features because they are only interested in making gadgets and toys?" which is just a vague hyperbolic statement of the other sides illogical thinking as you see it.
so then putting these together you have created a false and invalid position for the person you are arguing against, which you then proceed to knock down in your post.

that's knocking down a strawman. we all do it. I've probably done it oodles of times here, but it's still a strawman, which is pretty invalid as an argued position.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Andy Neil
Re: Spreading Rumors
on Aug 22, 2011 at 7:39:46 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "so then putting these together you have created a false and invalid position for the person you are arguing against, which you then proceed to knock down in your post."

No offense, I but I completely disagree with your assessment. Mainly because you are selectively omitting parts of my post that refute your claim that I'm propping up a straw man.

Yes, I said, "people saying that Apple isn't planning on adding multicam back in, or any true "professional" features because they are only interested in making gadgets and toys". I also said, "There is as much truth to any of that as there is to those saying that FCPX will have all the pro features back by the end of the year."

What I'm doing is using hyperbole on both sides of an issue (one that I'm not defending OR attacking) to demonstrate that the argument itself has gotten a little ridiculous. The only argument my post intended to make was that Mike was being disingenuous in his post by feigning non-partiality in one sentence and then being terribly partial in the next.

Andy

http://www.timesavertutorials.com


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Spreading Rumors
on Aug 22, 2011 at 7:57:55 pm

mmmmm.


Where's your derision for the people saying that Apple isn't planning on adding multicam back in, or any true "professional" features because they are only interested in making gadgets and toys? You know, the vast majority of posters. There is as much truth to any of that as there is to those saying that FCPX will have all the pro features back by the end of the year.


you're still saying that he should apportion equal derision to those who say that apple isn't planning to add multicam back in, as he should to those on the other side who say that FCPX will be restored to professional health by the end of the year.

as you say: "Where's your derision for the people saying that Apple isn't planning on adding multicam back in..?"

he can't have derision for them - they don't exist.

the point is that when you posit the multicam statement, you're using it as an example of ludicrous statements which he chooses to ignore from his own end. You're not positing it as a false exmple used by the other side - in effect - you sort of became the other side positing false arguments when you said it. Nobody has said multicam is not coming back in.

And now, continuing my voyage of pretending to know argument lore, I will read from a cookbook backwards..

By and large I agree with what you're saying, but lets face it, at this point nearly everyone in this forum is knee deep in mud, covered in dry clay, throwing wide punches, breathing heavily and thinking long and hard about a hot shower and a cup of coffee. the cow just had to rename this forum into a one off editors panel episode of the jerry springer show after all...

we may all be beyond redemption.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Andy Neil
Re: Spreading Rumors
on Aug 22, 2011 at 9:32:21 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "he can't have derision for them - they don't exist."

That is why I said it was hyperbole. Just as the OTHER quote was hyperbole. No one is saying that FCP X will be fixed by the end of the year.

However, by calling those on one side of the FCP debate, "fanboys" and "apologists", Mike is most definitely showing his colors. I only asked that he show equal snark with the "haters" and "Avid shills".

True, no one is saying that multicam isn't coming back, but there is this exchange:

Jonathan Dortch"(Multicam will) be back, probably done by some combo of multiple range selectors and the compound clip system."

[TImothy Auld] "I'm glad you're confident it's coming back, Jonathan. In my experience that is not how Apple operates."

Perhaps not outright saying it, but certainly expressing cynicism about it's return. And then there's this:

Lance Bachelder"FCPX will NEVER be widely adapted in the pro world - it's complete crap."

The hyperbole I used was to illustrate the divide in satirical fashion. The "derision" I was asking Mike to apportion was for the "FCPX complainer" side of the debate. Not specifically to people who said, "multicam isn't coming back."

Andy

http://www.timesavertutorials.com


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Gary Huff
Re: Spreading Rumors
on Aug 22, 2011 at 9:46:38 pm

Andy, you are continually stretching that point until it has broken and snapped back to hit you in the face.

Your statement was not true and based in ignorance of what has been said here. Own up.


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Andy Neil
Re: Spreading Rumors
on Aug 22, 2011 at 9:52:59 pm

[Gary Huff] "Andy, you are continually stretching that point until it has broken and snapped back to hit you in the face.

Your statement was not true and based in ignorance of what has been said here. Own up."


And you Gary seem incapable of making a precise statement. What "point" are you accusing me of stretching? What statement have I made that you feel is "based in ignorance"?

Andy

http://www.timesavertutorials.com


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Gary Huff
Re: Spreading Rumors
on Aug 22, 2011 at 10:13:09 pm

The statement that people have said that Apple will not be implementing multicam. You stated it as a fact, and it is not. Now instead of owning up to it, you've come up with a convoluted explanation to save face that sounds completely ridiculous.

You made an assumption, and you were wrong.


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Andy Neil
Re: Spreading Rumors
on Aug 22, 2011 at 10:24:32 pm

I said it was hyperbole, which it was. That IS "owning up to it". It was also grouped with another ridiculous statement from the "pro FCP X" debate, but you just seem to ignore that because it doesn't help you.

I never stated it as a fact. There are no quotes on the statement. You are simply reading into it what you want.

Andy

http://www.timesavertutorials.com


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Gary Huff
Re: Spreading Rumors
on Aug 22, 2011 at 11:00:44 pm

[Andy Neil]I said it was hyperbole, which it was. That IS "owning up to it".

Not really. You claim you are engaging in hyperbole as part of your strategy, but your original post is very clear that you are trying to take the middle ground between one position that exists and one that does not. You asked Mike:

"Where's your derision for the people saying that Apple isn't planning on adding multicam back in, or any true "professional" features because they are only interested in making gadgets and toys?"

Now, why would you utilize hyperbole here? How can Mike show derision for something that does not exist? If you meant something else, then why did you not say what you meant? I don't feel like I'm going out on a limb here to say that you assumed that such a statement had been made without really knowing so and thus you stated something out of your own ignorance of what had been said so far. The "hyperbole" is an afterthought to cover for that erroneous assumption.


It was also grouped with another ridiculous statement from the "pro FCP X" debate, but you just seem to ignore that because it doesn't help you.


I'm not sure what you are saying here. Why do I care that you were half-right? Sure, people are making "facts" that Apple has certain features planned, one only has to see the numerous references to Alex4D to pick up on that. So why would I even reference it? You can have derision for something that actually exists.


I never stated it as a fact. There are no quotes on the statement. You are simply reading into it what you want.


Andy, please don't insult my intelligence.

"Where's your derision for the people saying that Apple is running slave labor camps and that FCPX is a way to brainwash the masses!"

Oh, wait, I didn't mean that anyone was actually saying that! I was just using...uh...hyperbole! yeah, that's it!


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Andy Neil
Re: Spreading Rumors
on Aug 22, 2011 at 11:09:35 pm

[Gary Huff] "You can have derision for something that actually exists."

Then show me posts that prove my statement, "those saying that FCPX will have all the pro features back by the end of the year."

I was exaggerating on both ends. That group doesn't exist any more than the one you're railing on about. Just because you THINK it exists, doesn't count.

[Gary Huff] "Andy, please don't insult my intelligence."

Why not? You're insulting mine.

Andy

http://www.timesavertutorials.com


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Gary Huff
Re: Spreading Rumors
on Aug 22, 2011 at 11:46:29 pm

[Andy Neil]Then show me posts that prove my statement, "those saying that FCPX will have all the pro features back by the end of the year."


You know what? You're right. I have no idea if anyone has said that (and probably not). I didn't pick up on that last "end of the year." But that begs a "so what?"

Here is Mike's original line about that:

When people speak for Apple (as if they worked for them) saying that Apple will or will not be adding features in the future it really does not help anyone since this is pure speculation on their part.

He never says "end of the year", so again, something you just threw in there. No one on the pro-FCPX is saying "Hey, it'll all be good at the end of the year!" and no one on the anti-FCPX side is accusing them of saying that.

Except you.

So now you are wrong on both counts, which makes your original post pointless.

"Where's your derision for the people saying that Apple is running slave labor camps and that FCPX is a way to brainwash the masses!"

Oh, wait, I didn't mean that anyone was actually saying that! I was just using...uh...hyperbole! yeah, that's it!


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Andy Neil
Re: Spreading Rumors
on Aug 23, 2011 at 12:54:27 am

[Gary Huff]"So now you are wrong on both counts, which makes your original post pointless."

Not at all. My post had a very clear point. You however, have not been interested in my point. You've been commenting on the manner in which I've made my point. It would be a relief if you actually commented on the point of my post, but if you claim you don't know the point of it, you'd be insulting your own intelligence.

Andy

http://www.timesavertutorials.com


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Gary Huff
Re: Spreading Rumors
on Aug 23, 2011 at 2:34:58 am

[Andy Neil]You however, have not been interested in my point.

Your point is right, but not in the reasoning you give.

You say that both sides need to stop pretending that they speak for Apple when it comes to speculation on what features will or won't be added,

This is correct. You can't state that Apple will add needed missing features as a fact, nor can you do the same that Apple will not.

but you only slam the "cult-like" fanboys.

Now you are wrong.

Where's your derision for the people saying that Apple isn't planning on adding multicam back in, or any true "professional" features because they are only interested in making gadgets and toys?

Now you ask Mike where his derision is for people who are saying things that have never been said.

You know, the vast majority of posters.

Wrong again.

There is as much truth to any of that as there is to those saying that FCPX will have all the pro features back by the end of the year.

No one has stated that either. So you are wrong yet again.

Andy, where is your derision for people who are claiming that Apple is involved in slave labor and is using FCPX to brainwash the minds of innocent editors?


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Spreading Rumors
on Aug 22, 2011 at 10:35:25 pm

[Andy Neil] "That is why I said it was hyperbole. "


bud - come on.


"Where's your derision for the people saying that Apple isn't planning on adding multicam back in..?"

reference to hyperbole needs to be grounded in spoken hyperbole. You weren't referring to hyperbole, you were making an unsubstantiated statement idealising a perfectly ridiculous statement from people you don't agree with on this issue.

With respect, you did a good trawl after the fact to dig up supporting statements of a sort, but there is no way in which there is a held position that multicam is in question.

I would never say that craig seeman or anyone else is waving a 52 state flag in favour of this application. there are honest differences of opinion here. people arguing the problems with this app are doing just that.
I'm not saying you, but... certain people have tended to frame the dispute on this forum in passive aggressive denunciations, a failure of the forum in their eyes. And well, then maybe they go ring up the cow.. and then maybe they quote supreme court judiciary or something. (sorry - way too snarky) howandever - this forum now explicitly appears, in its title, to exist as a debate forum for the issues surrounding the decisions made by apple here. that would seem to merit all actions of debate.

sure for kicks here's one:


the fact that there is a fat, dripping drop shadow when i lift the clip is. a. chrome. too. FAR!!!!!!. **thumps desk**
The timeline should be a thousand fold japanese blade in its responsiveness, and god knows, I'm serious - it isn't, and that is near unforgivable - that is actually one of my true, true bug bears: the gallons and gallons and gallons of chrome on the timeline - feeling the fractionally sluggish clip and all its subtle glows and shadows move, watching the clip filmstrip tortuously generate at high zooms drives me somewhat completely off my rocker. Apple badly need to re-discover their GUI chrome zen. The glom on this timeline is a disgrace.

Its equivalent is to click placing the marker in word and waiting a horrible fraction of a second - every single bloody time
considering the criticality of perceived timeline action in editing - their treatment of the timeline on that level is a disgrace!!!! I have slapped my glove on the table!


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Chris Harlan
Re: Spreading Rumors
on Aug 22, 2011 at 10:42:41 pm

[Andy Neil] "Where's your derision for the people saying that Apple isn't planning on adding multicam back in"

I certainly would have pointed that out if I had seen such a thing, but I haven't seen any one make that particular statement. Have you?


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Scott Sheriff
Re: Spreading Rumors
on Aug 23, 2011 at 4:13:06 am

[MIke Guidotti] "I think it is OK for people to knock or praise a product that they have used and know. On the other hand I think it is bad for people to spread rumors either for or against something when they have no actual knowledge of it. When people speak for Apple (as if they worked for them) saying that Apple will or will not be adding features in the future it really does not help anyone since this is pure speculation on their part"

Speculation and rumors are two completely different things.
Prior to the NAB supermeet there were a lot of posts by people talking about how great and glorious the new version of FCP will be. And this was before the apple take-over of the supermeet was announced. All that talk would be your rumors.
Now that the supermeet demo has happened, and there are published specs, and software to actually try (if you want to) anything said about why this or that was done by apple, is speculation.
Humans work on speculation. Speculation is the mechanism that lets us learn from others mistakes. Most of us know not to do the things we see in movies like "Jackass". We don't need to actually get punched in the nuts by a midget, or ride a bike off a roof into pool full of jello, to know this is a good way to get injured. Common sense tell us these are dumb things to do, and we don't need personal experience to know that. Using those same skills, it is not necessary to work for apple to accurately speculate on the target market for X. We can see the release features in X (or the lack thereof), the unannounced withdrawal of FCS3, the lack of a hands on demo, or Q&A at NAB (where you had a captive audience made up almost entirely of the inner core of the profession), coupled with apple's handling of Shake and that is plenty of information to form a speculative opinion about X, and the X demographic.
Going back to rumors. Saying that this or that will be added in the future, is a rumor, not speculation. Because if these features were intended to be in the product, they would have been there from the get-go. All the decompiled code, and hearsay in the world is not enough evidence to contradict apples actions, which can be seen and judged by all. It is this type of wishful thinking that keeps the 'three card monte' guys, in business. There is always a percentage of people that ignore what can be seen and judged, in favor of fantasy that goes against common sense.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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Tim Wilson
Re: Spreading Rumors
on Aug 23, 2011 at 5:32:57 am

[Scott Sheriff] " We don't need to actually get punched in the nuts by a midget"

Speak for yourself, man.


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