FORUMS: list search recent posts

Personal insults now? Great.

COW Forums : Apple Final Cut Pro X Debates

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
Bill Davis
Personal insults now? Great.
on Aug 21, 2011 at 7:08:30 am

David Roth Weiss posted the following further down in this thread...

"The very loudest among them, specifically Bill Davis and Steve Conner, have shown themselves to be hypocrites of the highest order, who, when they can't win the debate, are compelled to suggest that alternative points of view must head for the nearest exit."

(The full post is still above for anyone who might feel this is somehow out of context)

It is PRECISELY this kind of personal attack that is accelerating the fractious nature of this board.

Mr. Weiss you are completely out of line here.

This board reminds us in headers that it's material is viewed globally, Google indexed, and very, very public.

As I noted in my other post on the subject, I've been writing for more than 20 years in magazines, forums and other on-line resources - and while not among the most prolific posters here, a search on my contributions to this board will reveal hundreds of posts designed to do nothing more than assist, clarify and help other users here. On occasions, when I've posted something that proved to be less than accurate, I've owned up to it and publicly corrected the record. And sorry, but I simply won't roll over and let someone talk that kind of smack about me in public without a response.

I believe this to be the very kind of personal, mean spirited, and ill-considered rhetoric that is devaluing the discussion here.

Mr. Weiss disagrees with my opinions, so I must be a "control freak" and a "hypocrite."

Well, sir, I am not. Period.

A quick Wiki reference for clarity: "Hypocrisy is the state of pretending to have beliefs, opinions, virtues, ideals, thoughts, feelings, qualities, or standards that one does not actually have.[1] Hypocrisy involves the deception of others and is thus a kind of lie[1]."

If I'm to be called out in public as a liar, I feel I have the right to have some evidence presented. My writing is all here to be searched.

Why is this board so fractious? Because some people here simply will NOT be civil.

Mr. Weiss's post above is, IMO, exhibit A.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


Return to posts index

Steve Connor
Re: Personal insults now? Great.
on Aug 21, 2011 at 8:59:45 am

And he can't even be bothered to spell my name correctly!

Steve Connor
Adrenalin Television

Have you tried "Search Posts"? Enlightenment may be there.


Return to posts index

Tim Wilson
Please: A moratorium on posts about posters
on Aug 21, 2011 at 10:56:14 am

Recalling what my parents told my sister and me, and what many of you have said to your own children: "I don't care who started it. CUT IT OUT!"

(For the record, my sister started it, but I still had to cut it out.)

This forum is intended for full contact yet civil discussions about Apple, FCP, the industry and everything related EXCEPT the honor or intentions of ANYONE HERE, for any reason. Cut it out.

Which is to say, we completely agree with you. There have been personal insults and attacks aplenty. But here's the new rule: nobody gets to have the last word in this "but he said this about me" slapfest besides Bessie.

If any of you see anything that veers out of line, we rely on you to write any one of us using the Contact Us link at the top of the page. We'd love to keep up with every post, but with thousands a day across the COW, it's just not possible. We'll do our best to respond in a timely and appropriate manner...but keep it off the forum.

No disrespect intended to anyone here, including you guys starting this thread, Bill and Steve. Again, we agree that personal attacks have gotten way out of hand. Even one is too many, and a violation of our Terms of Service.

So I'm asking everyone, please, avoid posting about other people posting, and focus on the admittedly very complicated and emotional topics at hand.

Channeling every dad everywhere, certainly mine and likely some of you yourselves: I'm warning you, DON'T MAKE ME STOP THIS CAR.


Return to posts index


TImothy Auld
Re: Please: A moratorium on posts about posters
on Aug 21, 2011 at 12:44:44 pm

While I agree that one personal attack is one too many, I really don't think it happens "aplenty." There are just a few abusers on both sides but that kind of thing tends to stand out. I know that I have been the beneficiary of help and insight from the cow community over the years (far more than I have provided, I'm sure) and a good deal of that from people with whom I have deep disagreements on this subject. So while I do look forward to a more civil discourse in which there is no place for telling people to "move on" or that FCP X is "a piece of..." I do hope the gloves do not come off completely. Passion is one of the elements that makes a discussion lively, productive and yes, I'll admit it: entertaining.

bigpine


Return to posts index

Gary Huff
Re: Personal insults now? Great.
on Aug 21, 2011 at 4:24:58 pm

[Bill Davis]It is PRECISELY this kind of personal attack that is accelerating the fractious nature of this board.

I don't see that acceleration, and, frankly, I don't find Weiss' use of the word "hypocrite" to be all that terrible. Everyone is to some extent, and I think your posting bares that out somewhat.

This board reminds us in headers that it's material is viewed globally, Google indexed, and very, very public.

Bill, to be honest, I'm more worried about that sort of thing with your reputation more than David's. Especially for posts of this nature.

Mr. Weiss disagrees with my opinions, so I must be a "control freak" and a "hypocrite."

You are misrepresenting his point here. Ironic for a post that is whining about the same. (and, yes, I consider you whining at this point).

If I'm to be called out in public as a liar, I feel I have the right to have some evidence presented. My writing is all here to be searched.

You are over-emphasizing the "lie" part. A lot of people just don't have the clarity to realize they are being like that. And I think your own writing here damns you more than helps.


Return to posts index

Scott Sheriff
Re: Personal insults now? Great.
on Aug 21, 2011 at 6:25:08 pm

[Bill Davis] "If I'm to be called out in public as a liar, I feel I have the right to have some evidence presented. My writing is all here to be searched."

I think you are misrepresenting, or at least overstating what David said.
The wiki definition of hypocrisy is not the same as the Websters definition, but it comes to have the same colloquial meaning, which is to say things that are critical of others, while doing some of those same things yourself. In the full context of the wiki, which you left out, it goes on to explain that this is not always about deception, but simply being human and unable to live up to ones own standards. Here is what it says:

Hypocrisy is the state of pretending to have beliefs, opinions, virtues, ideals, thoughts, feelings, qualities, or standards that one does not actually have.[1] Hypocrisy involves the deception of others and is thus a kind of lie[1].

Hypocrisy is not simply failing to practice those virtues that one preaches. Samuel Johnson made this point when he wrote about the misuse of the charge of "hypocrisy" in Rambler No. 14:

Nothing is more unjust, however common, than to charge with hypocrisy him that expresses zeal for those virtues which he neglects to practice; since he may be sincerely convinced of the advantages of conquering his passions, without having yet obtained the victory, as a man may be confident of the advantages of a voyage, or a journey, without having courage or industry to undertake it, and may honestly recommend to others, those attempts which he neglects himself.[2]

Thus, an alcoholic's advocating temperance, for example, would not be considered an act of hypocrisy as long as the alcoholic made no pretense of constant sobriety.


Here is the Webster definition:
1
: a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not; especially : the false assumption of an appearance of virtue or religion
2
: an act or instance of hypocrisy


I'm not sure why you chose to use wiki as your source, when the Webster definition is as easy to find, and a lot more concise. Either way, I would consider Webster's (or Oxford) definition as the true definition. And even in reading the wiki definition in it's entirety, it is pretty clear that the use of hypocrite, is not the same as being called a liar, and that hypocrisy often involves self-deception.

And in going back and reading David's post:
"The very loudest among them, specifically Bill Davis and Steve Conner, have shown themselves to be hypocrites of the highest order, who, when they can't win the debate, are compelled to suggest that alternative points of view must head for the nearest exit."
It seems very clear what he said, and what he meant. He did not use the word liar, nor any synonym. I see no assertion, or 'read between the lines' that he called anyone a liar, he simply used hypocrite colloquially.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


Return to posts index


Chris Harlan
Re: Personal insults now? Great.
on Aug 21, 2011 at 8:07:27 pm

[Bill Davis] "A quick Wiki reference for clarity: "Hypocrisy is the state of pretending to have beliefs, opinions, virtues, ideals, thoughts, feelings, qualities, or standards that one does not actually have.[1] Hypocrisy involves the deception of others and is thus a kind of lie[1]."

If I'm to be called out in public as a liar, I feel I have the right to have some evidence presented"


Really, you are going to go with this, Bill? Cherry pick the definition of hypocrisy so that you can accuse David of calling you a liar? It seems to me that this represents the very discussion technique that David is complaining about.

Bill, I think it is great that you find so much exciting about FCP X. What ain't so hot, from my POV, is the degree to which--in your zeal--you are constantly telling people that if they don't get on board they are relegated to the dust bins of history. That's a rather hard sell, and pretty bold statement to be making on something as ill-defined as FCP X currently is.


Return to posts index

Carsten Orlt
Re: Personal insults now? Great.
on Aug 21, 2011 at 10:59:55 pm

And so it continues by the followers of the 'Ober' Bulli.

I'm not a linguist, not even a native speaker, but I do understand rude and bully behaviour. If someone things that something is not as bad as some try to make it, and the latter constantly starts personal attacks, while the former never ever did so, than sure it is the fault of the former......NOT

The one who screams the loudest is always right, right?
Mr Weiss you are a bully and long ago stopped actually arguing the case, and instead like to pick people apart. And Mr. Wilson your way of 'Cut it out' is just avoiding the problem. Mr. Weiss needs to be opposed as otherwise the bullies just get their way again.

Ok guys, now it is your turn. Rally behind him and blast away.

I fully support you Bill and Steve!!

Carsten


Return to posts index

Chris Harlan
Re: Personal insults now? Great.
on Aug 21, 2011 at 11:13:40 pm

Dear Carsten,

Blast away? At what? s Being called a "follower of the Ober Bully?" C'mon, man; chill out a little bit. What is your native language, by the way? You do quite well with Englih; much better, I suspect, than I could do with your native tongue.


Return to posts index


Carsten Orlt
Re: Personal insults now? Great.
on Aug 22, 2011 at 10:59:28 am

Dear Chris,

You're right, I shouldn't have called you names. I apologize. I actually did what I was criticizing.

But I still stand by my critic of David. Glen below made some valid points, but I think they are missing one crucial difference to what David is doing, and I have called it out before. He makes it personal, very personal. While I believe most people here argue against the opinion someone else has, he argues against the person directly.

Now it might be the case that David is actually not mean spirited and just uses his language skills as a weapon because he loves an intellectual fight. But this is for him to say.

I will continue to speak out against what I call bullying.

Best wishes
Carsten


Return to posts index

Glen Hurd
Re: Personal insults now? Great.
on Aug 22, 2011 at 3:52:29 am

I thought the hypocrisy dig was more at Bill's signature, which carries a certain pious tint, instructing all who read that they should consider whether what they say is true, respectful, etc.

I don't know how many comments on FCP X could be considered "true" unless we limited discussion just to specs. But the call for "respect" is the easiest rule to break - the minute you offend me I will declare that you aren't showing me respect. Heh. :)

Many times Bill has stated that those who resented FCP X as the upgrade to FCP 7 were responding emotionally instead of intellectually.

Just one example, from "Fear, Loathing and Final Cut Pro X"

Bill writes -

And from the tenor here while I was away shooting in San Deigo. Today FEAR reigns supreme!

“Litsten to ME everyone,” I see a lot here. “I’m the one with specialized knowledge and I just noticed that the red birds are flying north. Let me be the first to tell you why this is the first sign of the apocolypse. Follow me to safety – or rue the day!”

Screw that.

I get it. Change breeds fear. But you know what?

I’m not afraid.



This writing - while passionate - certainly seems contrary to what his signature suggests. Especially when much of our early resistance to FCP X was based on a philosophical understanding of its shortcomings in any environment that required complying with broadcast standards and workflows. The big question at the time wasn't if FCPX was useable for everyone, but rather if it had suddenly slipped from its high perch - achieved through 10 years of steady climbing (and evangelizing by all of us loyal users) - only to slide back into the valley. Not only was it unusable (to us) - which was a fact, and it had EOL'd the heart of our bread and butter - it also raised questions about Apple's intentions.

Our angst was simply based on certain facts, and our expectations on how the industry responds to tools that break.

To paint the "fear" brush or the "culturally confused" brush or the "too stupid to realize the future is brighter" brush on us was a little insulting. But with Bill's signature, it becomes hypocrisy - "Before speaking ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful, etc."

As to the control freak comment, I would ask you what kind of behavior you would attribute to someone who is insulting on one hand, and calls for civility once the returning insults become overwhelming? Any effort to control a discussion's temperature, after having contributed to its heat, seems a little self-serving. Doing that as a pattern could certainly lead someone somewhere to come up with a label. "Self-appointed control freak". Considering the email sent to Ron - geesh, I guess I'd agree.

So let me shoot the same insult back, as a matter of demonstration.

The fear accusation has always seemed to be thrown against those who find Apple's vision and FCP X sorely lacking, but that same label can just as easily be applied to it's supporters. The irony is that it never has in this forum. Until now. :)

"Why cling to a product that has ruined Apple's reputation at the highest tiers in our industry? Don't you have any dreams of working there yourself? Do you simply lack the confidence? Do you find learning a struggle? Or do you fear stepping out of Apple's little kingdom? Why are you afraid to move over to software that continues to be celebrated by the greatest visionaries in our industry? Do you need Apple to hold your hand on everything? It's bad enough they tell you what video cards you can use - always at least a year behind the PC market, what your native Blu-ray experience should be, what the availability of USB3 will be. Now they're telling you what the new best way to edit is, and you're going along with that too? With a menu item that says "Import from iMovie?"

You see how that works? It is insulting, but it's easy to write - I barely have to think.

And, to be clear, I really don't feel that way. Not right now, anyway, heh! Shoot me a barb, and I'll be thinking all kinds of things - but I won't write them. Not today anyway. :)

But if I had a signature that espoused respecting others, blah blah blah, I'd say you were completely justified in calling me a hypocrite. Since I don't, you'll have to limit your observations to "jerk" and "a$$hat" with a sprinkling of "arrogant" for the right flavor :)

Maybe Ron needs to create a whole new category - apart from the "Forums"

See you in the Arena, anyone!!! ;)


Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2017 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]