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Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum

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Steve Connor
Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 20, 2011 at 9:32:27 am

Some thought from an e-mail I have recently sent to Ronald Lindeboom

"Firstly let me say I love the COW, the FCP forum in particular has been a bedrock of advice for me and thousands of others since the early days of FCP, it introduced me to the COW and hopefully I have been a reasonably valuable member of the community.

However I believe the FCPX forum may not be able to achieve the same level of help and community that the other forums on the COW have achieved, I also believe it may now be putting off potential new users of the community.

The FCPX launch was a debacle clearly, you did exactly the right thing in letting people vent their anger on the forum and splitting off the techniques forum for those who wanted more constructive discussions on the software. However, the software is out there and people still naturally gravitate to the main FCPX forum as opposed to the techniques forum and more queries are appearing there every day.

There are now a few people who are jumping onto almost every thread to add their dislike of the software and in some cases belittle those of us who choose to use it, calling them "Youtubers etc" I believe this is putting new FCPX users off using the forum, in fact some of the responses appear astonishingly elitist. If I was a young editor using FCPX, I don't think I would have had the confidence to ask questions on the forum at the moment

I also find it strange that many of the forum leaders don't use the software and do not plan to. I find this part to be the saddest as many of these people have been incredibly helpful to myself and thousands of others on the FCP forum, I understand their bitterness but I don't understand why, two months later they still feel the need to vent on the forum.

I also understand that discussion here on the COW should never be stifled, but some of the posts are not discussion they are simply people forcing their opinions on posters who never asked for it. I also think much of it is contrary to the spirit of the COW

I would love the FCPX forum to give the same level of help and support that the FCP forum has, and as an FCPX user I would love to contribute, however I feel at the moment, if it continues on it's current path, it may fail and other forums, who have contained the behaviour I am concerned about, will benefit."

Steve Connor
Adrenalin Television

Have you tried "Search Posts"? Enlightenment may be there.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 20, 2011 at 9:51:23 am

Thank you for that post. I know of no other COW forum where so many faces on top either don't use, don't like, aren't interested in helping users of the software except to the extent they can discourage people.



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Herb Sevush
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 20, 2011 at 7:57:26 pm

"I know of no other COW forum where so many faces on top either don't use, don't like, aren't interested in helping users of the software except to the extent they can discourage people."

I wonder why that is?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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TImothy Auld
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 20, 2011 at 10:59:22 am

Perhaps I am wrong but my perception about this particular forum is that, since June 21, it was a place for people to post opinions about how X works, whether or not it works for them, if they like the way it works or not, and to voice frustrations about it. And that is what people have been doing here. There are a few exceptions on both sides who flog their blind loyalty to one thing and another, but for the most part what I see on this forum is healthy discussion that could only help to speed improvements to FCP X, if that it is indeed Apple's intention. That is I believe why the Cow started another forum for FCP X techniques which from my reading gets a lot of traffic with people posting problems and getting excellent feedback from the Cow community.

bigpine


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum, some thoughts on Steve
on Aug 20, 2011 at 12:06:40 pm

Steve, I've personally largely tailed from the heights of my ranting, but it is noticeable with you buddy, that when people are venting criticisms you jump in railing like hell about their negativity and asking why don't they just move on. Couching it now in terms of - how dare you you're damaging the forum and I'm going to speak to Ron about you.. Who are you Steve? You're just another user of this forum. You are nothing more. I count three people on top of that board who are strong proponents of the software and Simon ubsdell is in and out too.

It's not your place to start shouting at everyone and wailing at the higher ups because this forum is not the way you want it. The bent of it's conversation is derived from controversy over the software. Its notable that over the last fortnight it's been dying down and tech questions are coming in. Your contention, steve, that more normal queries are being jumped on by some anti-FCPX wing is total and utter bull.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum, some thoughts on Steve
on Aug 20, 2011 at 3:25:46 pm

Amazing


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David Battistella
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum, some thoughts on Steve
on Aug 20, 2011 at 3:36:04 pm

Plus 1 Jeremy.

______________________________
The shortest answer is doing.
Lord Herbert
http://vimeo.com/battistella



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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum, some thoughts on Steve
on Aug 20, 2011 at 5:53:15 pm

Corking?


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Gary Huff
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum, some thoughts on Steve
on Aug 20, 2011 at 5:14:05 pm

Seriously, it's like the "White Night" syndrome, but with a piece of broken software.

Sheesh.


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Steven Gonzales
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 20, 2011 at 4:51:39 pm

So post a hint or discovery.

Remember when the FCPX Techniques forum was created?



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Robert Brown
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 20, 2011 at 6:17:07 pm

Well I guess the forum name has now been changed so this is now officially the place to go to hash it out. You mentioned that a few of the forums leaders were not X users but I'd guess ALL are FCP users. And many of us here have been on this FCP train for a while so it was a bit of a shock to see Apple do a complete 180 on the path they've been on for the last 10 years.

Also some here have a knack for ranting so it was fun to read some of the posts but I think a lot of people are just trying to feel this thing out and there needed to be a place for people to post their reactions so editors could get a pulse on how Apple's move would affect their businesses and skills etc. or if anybody was taking X seriously or not. I also think this debate is healthy for X users too as if some are new to editing and have aspirations of becoming a professional some day then they can have more info to see if X is the route they want to go or not.



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Craig Seeman
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 20, 2011 at 6:57:00 pm

The issue is not the debate. Sometimes there's very good solid analysis on both sides and strengths and weaknesses. There's intelligent discussion on Apple's and the post industry's direction There's discussion on what's needed for various workflows.

Then IMHO there's those who don't articulate much more than "crap" or claim it "doesn't" do something when maybe they don't know how FCPX works vs cases where it actually can't do something. These are the posts that bring down the forum and the COW and such posts are too frequent and interfere with the more intelligent debate.

Debate and rant are not synonyms. While each of us may have different lines where one crosses in to the other, it seems to me that line has been crossed often.



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Robert Brown
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 20, 2011 at 7:28:43 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Then IMHO there's those who don't articulate much more than "crap" or claim it "doesn't" do something when maybe they don't know how FCPX works vs cases where it actually can't do something. These are the posts that bring down the forum and the COW and such posts are too frequent and interfere with the more intelligent debate."

I guess it's subjective. I have seen a few where somebody should just log off and mow the lawn or something but it's the minority. I also see petty arguments on other forums so what can you say? I guess there are bitter TV people out there and some of them are very highly respected. That's life.

In any case it's way less than it was a few weeks ago so I don't see reason for complaint. I assume there is some moderation here so if anybody goes overboard I guess they'll deal with it. Internet forums are never what one person wishes they were.



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Gary Pollard
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 21, 2011 at 12:22:18 am

[Robert Brown] "I assume there is some moderation here so if anybody goes overboard I guess they'll deal with it. I" That assumes neutral moderation.

____

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"



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Robert Brown
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 21, 2011 at 12:49:12 am

Did you have a point?

Robert Brown
Editor/VFX/Colorist - FCP, Smoke, Quantel Pablo, After Effects, 3DS MAX, Premiere Pro

http://vimeo.com/user3987510/videos


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Scott Sheriff
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 20, 2011 at 9:50:18 pm

[Craig Seeman] "These are the posts that bring down the forum and the COW and such posts are too frequent and interfere with the more intelligent debate."



Bringing the COW down, LOL! What hyperbole! I think it would take more than a few snarky posts to do that. Here's some ELO to take the edge off.

[Craig Seeman] "Debate and rant are not synonyms. While each of us may have different lines where one crosses in to the other, it seems to me that line has been crossed often."

You must lead a pretty sheltered life if you think what is written on this forum regularly crosses some kinda' line. Have you ever worked on a live multi-cam remote? I have some typical intercom audio from gigs that in comparison, make this forum look like a trip to a monastery.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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Craig Seeman
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 20, 2011 at 10:26:43 pm

I will say that as I travel to other forums I see there are people there who are no longer here and that number seems anecdotally more frequent then it has in the past. I personally believe the discourse in this specific forum is driving away some people who are interested in learning about FCPX. Anecdotal because I can't do those kinds of analytics but it's what I piece together in my experience.



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Herb Sevush
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 20, 2011 at 10:31:00 pm

I believe it is Ron's business to worry about the success of this forum. His track record is pretty good, I figure he knows what he's doing. If he thought the combativeness on this forum was bad for the Cow, believe me, it would have ended.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Robert Brown
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 21, 2011 at 12:49:59 am

Kind of what I was thinking.

Robert Brown
Editor/VFX/Colorist - FCP, Smoke, Quantel Pablo, After Effects, 3DS MAX, Premiere Pro

http://vimeo.com/user3987510/videos


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 20, 2011 at 10:48:55 pm

[Craig Seeman] "I will say that as I travel to other forums I see there are people there who are no longer here and that number seems anecdotally more frequent then it has in the past. I personally believe the discourse in this specific forum is driving away some people who are interested in learning about FCPX. Anecdotal because I can't do those kinds of analytics but it's what I piece together in my experience."

Well, there's no doubt that traffic throughout all the FCP forums fell off substantially in just the last week or ten days. But, that may have everything to do with the fact that it's the end of summer and vacation time, or it could be because Apple has been completely mute as of late, or it could be because very few people give a damn. We can only surmise...

Still, and yes, I'm being bullish on the subject, I don't believe there's anything anyone can say about the software that drives people away.


David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new tutorial: Prepare for a seamless transition to FCP X and OS X Lion
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/FCP-10-MAC-Lion/1

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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vince gaffney
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 21, 2011 at 4:00:12 am

I'm pretty sure it's not what's being said, but how how it's being said.



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David A Fenton
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 20, 2011 at 6:53:47 pm

This particular forum is definitely doomed :) it will likely be deleted around the end of the year and the techniques forum will be renamed the FCPX forum.

-------------
David A Fenton
-------------


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Scott Sheriff
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 20, 2011 at 7:09:57 pm

forum [ˈfɔːrəm]
n pl -rums, -ra [-rə]
1. a meeting or assembly for the open discussion of subjects of public interest
2. a medium for open discussion, such as a magazine
3. a public meeting place for open discussion
4. a court; tribunal
5. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) (in South Africa) a pressure group of leaders or representatives, esp Black leaders or representatives
6. (Historical Terms) (in ancient Italy) an open space, usually rectangular in shape, serving as a city's marketplace and centre of public business
[from Latin: public place; related to Latin foris outside]

I see nothing in the definition of the word forum that says the persons participating in it need to be a bunch of Pollyanna's, or pretend the emperor is wearing his clothes. To put it another way, love of the product is not a prerequisite for participation.
I think the dissenters are doing a great public service by stopping the uninformed from wasting 300 dollars that they could use to by a real editing application. I love the part where you are talking about how all the forum leaders don't use the software, and are discouraging others from using it, and how that is a unique situation. Maybe if you would take off the rose colored glasses, and look at that closer, it would become clear as to why that is.
And speaking of loving the program, well, love it all you want. Who is stopping you?
Although I wonder how much you actually know about it, since you seem to spend all of your time monitoring this forum, so you can jump on every post that isn't a slobbering love affair with your beloved movie hero app. Your post is a perfect example of the proverbial "pot calling the kettle black". Not only do you, and the glee club literally jump on every post you disagree with, but then you wrote this:
"I also understand that discussion here on the COW should never be stifled, but some of the posts are not discussion they are simply people forcing their opinions on posters who never asked for it."
Did your OP contain any Final Cut discussion, or was it just you forcing your opinion on us? Or was it an attempt to stifle the opposition, by noting right off the top that the post contained "Some thought(sic) from an e-mail I have recently sent to Ronald Lindeboom". Your OP wreaks of hypocrisy.
But you are not alone. There are a handful of 'the usual suspects' that we can count on for some 'thumbs down' anytime someone posts less than a five star review of movie hero, or to 'thumb up' your pontificating on how great movie hero is. I noticed it only took twenty minutes for someone from the glee club to post a thank you response to your OP. What are you guys emailing each other? You all act like self appointed, movie hero 'mall cops', that have taken it upon yourselves to try and keep these streets clear of any hooligans, who dare speak ill of the failed app. And your post sounds like a sad attempt to get you moved up from your self-appointed mall cop status, to something with a bit more cred. Who knows, maybe it will work. Maybe you can get Ron to give us all the ban-hammer and silence our criticism. So you and your little clique' can all be the permanent forum leaders in your own little private Idaho.
The one thing I don't understand is why don't you spend all this effort getting up to speed on your new favorite toy. I mean really, if you love it so much, and it's such a great, and deep app, and it's getting you so much work, how do you find the time to police the streets?
BTW if the dissenters are so upsetting your delicate nature, and stopping you from discussing of movie hero's merits, whatever they are, there is another sandbox for you to go play in:
http://forums.creativecow.net/fcpxtechnique
I haven't been there, but I hear it's hooligan free.
Don't forget to email your posse and have them thumb down this post.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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Chris Harlan
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 20, 2011 at 8:02:53 pm

[Scott Sheriff] "Your post is a perfect example of the proverbial "pot calling the kettle black". Not only do you, and the glee club literally jump on every post you disagree with, but then you wrote this:
"I also understand that discussion here on the COW should never be stifled, but some of the posts are not discussion they are simply people forcing their opinions on posters who never asked for it."
Did your OP contain any Final Cut discussion, or was it just you forcing your opinion on us? Or was it an attempt to stifle the opposition, by noting right off the top that the post contained "Some thought(sic) from an e-mail I have recently sent to Ronald Lindeboom". Your OP wreaks of hypocrisy."


Gotta say that I agree. I've been in the middle of discussions where I've been diagnosed as a hater because I'm talking about functions I don't like. I've been singled out as a problem an have basically been told to move on.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 20, 2011 at 9:14:13 pm

[Chris Harlan] "I've been singled out as a problem an have basically been told to move on."

Chris,

You haven't been singled out; as a dissenting voice you've just been added to the list of other dissenters who are being made to feel unwelcome on this forum by a very small, self-appointed group of control freaks, who simply can't stand the idea that many of us just don't agree with them.

The very loudest among them, specifically Bill Davis and Steve Conner, have shown themselves to be hypocrites of the highest order, who, when they can't win the debate, are compelled to suggest that alternative points of view must head for the nearest exit.

Craig Seeman has attempted to stick to the debate (for the most part), hence you've stood up for him, and rightly so, but in defending those who try to chase dissenting voice away, I think Craig risks damaging his own credibility.


David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new tutorial: Prepare for a seamless transition to FCP X and OS X Lion
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/FCP-10-MAC-Lion/1

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Bill Davis
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 21, 2011 at 5:58:58 am

Excuse me?

I've been writing for various public audiences in magazines and on-line for more than 20 years and what you have posted above is the single most insulting thing I've ever had anyone say about me.

If you can post an example of my being a "hypocrite of the highest order" I will immediately apologise.

If you can't, I expect YOU to do precisely the same.

You should start by reading here:

From wikipedia...

Hypocrisy is the state of pretending to have beliefs, opinions, virtues, ideals, thoughts, feelings, qualities, or standards that one does not actually have.[1] Hypocrisy involves the deception of others and is thus a kind of lie[1].

Every single thing I've written here is to my knowledge, archived and represents PRECISELY my opinion.

I have never knowingly deceived a single person with a single word I've written. I written ONLY under my real name in every forum and submission I've ever sent out.

So take your time. Back up your contention or man up and apologize.

Simple as that.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Bill Davis
The above is me being more than a bit angry.
on Aug 21, 2011 at 5:59:59 am

Just so there's NO mistake.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Steve Connor
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 21, 2011 at 9:03:37 am

David, I'm not sure why you constantly feel the need to resort to personal insults when making a point.

Steve Connor
Adrenalin Television

Have you tried "Search Posts"? Enlightenment may be there.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 20, 2011 at 8:26:04 pm

[Scott Sheriff] "I think the dissenters are doing a great public service by stopping the uninformed from wasting 300 dollars that they could use to by a real editing application."

Pointing out flaws or weaknesses are one thing. That's not what many people are doing. One simply has to read the adjectives some post have with no substantive analysis. Not all posts are like that but there are many.

[Scott Sheriff] "And speaking of loving the program, well, love it all you want. Who is stopping you? "

It has to do with intelligent discourse vs posts that are nothing more than derogatory.

Dictionary definitions have little to do with COW as a business nor as a place where can discuss things.
We make judgements just as I would judge who to work with in production and post production. There's a difference between discourse and emotional dumping. Just as I would not hire or work with someone who screamed at their crew or employees, there are things that people have posted here that I'd consider, not such a good public record of their attitude.



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David Roth Weiss
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 20, 2011 at 7:58:20 pm

[Steve Connor] "I also find it strange that many of the forum leaders don't use the software and do not plan to. I find this part to be the saddest as many of these people have been incredibly helpful to myself and thousands of others on the FCP forum, I understand their bitterness but I don't understand why, two months later they still feel the need to vent on the forum."

Steve,

As a longtime member of the Cow you should be well aware that no one appreciates being told how to think, what to think, and when to think it, especially by someone they don't even know.

Like it or not, you're actually a total newbie here all over again. No one, save me and a few other old timers even knows you, because you've been missing in action in recent times. All the others here do know is that you suddenly appeared, suddenly started trying to control the conversation, suddenly started bitching about others who don't agree with you, and now you're suddenly trying to make those who disagree with your point of view feel unwelcome on this forum.


David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new tutorial: Prepare for a seamless transition to FCP X and OS X Lion
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/FCP-10-MAC-Lion/1

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 20, 2011 at 8:43:53 pm

But the newbie or newly returning opinion is important. One doesn't know statistically how representative Steve is but if many share that sentiment, that does not reflect well on the COW. It may mean people, whose first experience of the COW is to come here looking to read about FCPX, may simply leave without bothering to explore the rest. Even more experienced folks may decide to leave for non COW forums.

It's not at all about "disagreement" which is common everywhere. It'a about how some are handling it.



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TImothy Auld
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 20, 2011 at 9:07:23 pm

If Apple had included support for legacy projects, XML, multicam, and a way to turn off the magnetic timeline this forum might not even exist. The land of if is a magical kingdom where all things are possible. I still maintain that most of what I see on this forum is healthy, productive - if sometimes heated -discussion. There are abuses by a few on both sides of the issue. I think they are far from the majority.

bigpine


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 20, 2011 at 9:21:48 pm

[Craig Seeman] "But the newbie or newly returning opinion is important. One doesn't know statistically how representative Steve is but if many share that sentiment, that does not reflect well on the COW. It may mean people, whose first experience of the COW is to come here looking to read about FCPX, may simply leave without bothering to explore the rest. Even more experienced folks may decide to leave for non COW forums.

It's not at all about "disagreement" which is common everywhere. It'a about how some are handling it."


Craig,

The fact that Steve is regarded as a newbie once again is the least important part of my message. Your response above does not address the fact that Steve Conner is asking dissenters to head for the exits. That's the big difference between guys like Steve and Bill Davis and yourself, and by refusing to acknowledge that, I think you risk diluting your own message.


David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new tutorial: Prepare for a seamless transition to FCP X and OS X Lion
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/FCP-10-MAC-Lion/1

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 20, 2011 at 9:50:55 pm

I don't want to speak for him but if he's frustrated or otherwise put off and his voice might represent some who may be silent, we should listen. I don't have a magic bullet to improve things (I hear there's compatibility issues) but I do think we should acknowledge that some stuff is off-putting on all sides.

How can we keep debate interesting and provocative so that newer folks read with interest?



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David Roth Weiss
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 20, 2011 at 10:19:18 pm

[Craig Seeman] "I don't want to speak for him but if he's frustrated or otherwise put off and his voice might represent some who may be silent, we should listen."

But Craig, don't you realize that everything that's frustrating for Steve is just as frustrating for everyone else, but you don't see everyone telling other people to leave the forum as Steve and Bill Davis do constantly and consistently.

And, I'm not splitting hairs here, sending people to the exit or trying to control them simply because they disagree with you is the worst behavior there is on a forum in my opinion.


David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new tutorial: Prepare for a seamless transition to FCP X and OS X Lion
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/FCP-10-MAC-Lion/1

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 20, 2011 at 10:33:12 pm

But we need to understood the root that causes that.

Even if one were committing a crime the sociologist might examine the social causes that have developed to cause that. This is especially so such people might not have been previously disposed to such behavior.

The climate here may be conducive to certain reactions and we need to examine the climate rather than just the behavior of a few individuals.



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Robert Brown
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 21, 2011 at 2:34:49 am

It's kind of a lame argument to speak for the people that aren't saying anything because you think they're too upset and scared to speak for themselves. If some are really that easily scared off then maybe they should stay home and hide in the closet. I mean come on. Good arguments are far more likely to attract people than scare them away.

Robert Brown
Editor/VFX/Colorist - FCP, Smoke, Quantel Pablo, After Effects, 3DS MAX, Premiere Pro

http://vimeo.com/user3987510/videos


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Craig Seeman
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 21, 2011 at 3:08:54 am

[Robert Brown] "Good arguments are far more likely to attract people than scare them away."

Some of the "arguments" have not been good. Certainly some have but the signal to noise has impacted some folks. Occasionally they've said as much on a few other non COW forums. Anecdotal but enough for me to think this forum is driving a few people away.



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Gary Pollard
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 21, 2011 at 3:27:34 am

There's a point where the static obscures the signal. And I agree entirely with those who feel the static does NOT need to be interjected into every single thread.

There's actually a: "People are actually USING and liking this. How dare they?" mindset from some here.

I have NEVER been in a forum dedicated to a product elsewhere where people feel "This product sucks" should be the view that holds sway and is actually supported by forum leaders, and where those who like it are considered the renegades or the "not pros". Nor do I feel a name change is a solution. It's like changing the "Canon 5D MkII" forum to the "I hate Canon 5D MkII" forum and hoping that solves it.

And I'm not talking about justified complaints over limitations. I share many of those views. Just the ENDLESS snarkiness. It's time to be over it, and once people ARE over it, this forum under its new name is dead.

____

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"



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Tim Wilson
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 21, 2011 at 4:45:19 am

[Gary Pollard] "And I'm not talking about justified complaints over limitations. I share many of those views. Just the ENDLESS snarkiness. It's time to be over it, and once people ARE over it, this forum under its new name is dead."

A friendly reminder - we do indeed have a forum for people who have gotten over it, right next door: the FCPX Techniques forum.

Anecdotal evidence that this forum or anything happening here is driving people away is easily disproved by counting posts. They don't line up precisely with traffic of course, and the daily post count is down a little, but traffic here is still very high, and rising.

While not as many *posts* as here, the traffic in the FCPX Techniques forum is very nearly as high, and also rising rapidly. Hundreds of thousands of visitors to the COW have made their way over there.

In fact, if anyone wants to make any bets about which are the two most trafficked forums in the COW right now, and in which order, and whether our overall traffic is up or down over these last four months -- well, it's the definition of a sucker's bet. I'd feel bad about taking your money. But I will if you insist.

In the meantime, the Debate forum is now properly named. If it sounds like noise to you, the traditional COW balance of sweet signal is easily enough at hand. In addition to civilized, solutions-focused conversation, you'll find presets, generators, and much more.

And yes, we assume that this forum will go away, just as soon as people are tired of talking about this business, their future in it, and Apple's plans for both.

I'm not taking bets on that date for everyone, but for many people, the date was two months ago tomorrow, when we opened the FCPX Techniques forum. Two months ago!! It's more than ready when you are.

Yr pal,

Timmy
Creative COW


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Gary Pollard
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 21, 2011 at 8:53:07 am

[Tim Wilson] "A friendly reminder - we do indeed have a forum for people who have gotten over it, right next door: the FCPX Techniques forum."

And the necessity for that is itself a sign of what this forum descended into. How sad that the helpful forum became a subset of the negative one.

But your post still really does not address the criticism that opened this thread. Why, even in a forum like this, do some feel static must be interjected into virtually every thread? When someone raises a problem about FCP X, I've seen them get a reply that says: "Save your money and don't use the cr*p." Helpful huh?

Just LOOK at the hostility to the FCP X adopters here. And yes, the insults ARE worse than in the other direction. Some can't see it simply because they share the view that the software sucks.

And where's the helpfulness or debate in the repeated: "I've found a video where someone says something is cr*p" so I'll stick it up as if they are talking about FCP X"? The first week, sure. But ANOTHER one?

(If someone went to the Premiere or Vegas forum and did EXACTLY the same thing and called it "humour" it would get called trolling).

Still, one small improvement I might suggest - the banner headline above STILL calls this the "FCP X - Forum". Helpful to change that to the "debate" title too. Still, not EVERY issue some might want to discuss POSITIVELY about FCP X is "technique".

As I said, I share the awareness of this program's limitations, and I can't use it for my own professional use, even though I'm excited by some possibilities, but I do understand the frustration of those who are encountering the skewed reality of this forum and misguidedly think they'll get help or advice here.

Maybe things will settle down later. This forum actually WAS starting to get back on track, but for now we are in topsy-turvy land.

____

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"



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Herb Sevush
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 21, 2011 at 4:21:51 pm

"And the necessity for that is itself a sign of what this forum descended into."

Or risen to. This forum contains the most intelligent, thought provoking analysis on the nature of editing that I have found anywhere. The price of that is a little friction. There are no free rides.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Chris Harlan
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 21, 2011 at 5:20:16 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Or risen to. This forum contains the most intelligent, thought provoking analysis on the nature of editing that I have found anywhere. The price of that is a little friction. There are no free rides."

Agreed.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 21, 2011 at 7:05:34 pm

Tim,
I'm sure you intended to answer my comments but I don't think you have although I do expect you do have the answer.

Analytics I'd look at aren't the number of posts. They would be the number of first time posts as well as the number of people who've posted. If it's just a small group of people using the forum heavily it's not bringing new eyeballs. Basically one might measure Unique Views and Total Views. Also what percentage of views actually come back for a 2nd view after some time passes.

Basically the metrics might be new participant posts and repeat views from new viewers. I suspect you believe these numbers are good too but "traffic" and "posts" don't tell the story when it comes to bringing in new people vs driving them away.



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Tim Wilson
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 21, 2011 at 9:36:34 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Analytics I'd look at aren't the number of posts. "

You're right, I was being too glib. Apologies.

Like every site, we have metrics derived from both site logs and independent tracking from several sources. As one example, what Google knows about visitors to the COW...which is a lot...we know. But other sources include things as direct as server logs.

So, in sweeping terms, here's what we know, with complete certainty.

Traffic is way up. Number of unique visitors is way up. FCPX Techniques traffic, up. Final Cut Pro Old School, up.

Adobe Premiere, up. Avid, up. :-)

DaVinci Resolve, Sony Vegas, up and up. DSLR Video, up.

Oh yeah, views here, up.

I can go on, but every part of the site is consistently up. A number of new areas, including the Career Center and the Services Directory are WAY up.

Some people have been turned off by this particular forum. That's why we've labeled this one as the Debate forum, and set up another TWO MONTHS ago for people who want to get to work, and it's working.

It's worth noting that people are still learning about this FCPX stuff. You guys are literally the avant garde, which means that there are bunches of folks still behind. This hasn't even begun to peak.

Watch for another spike this time next month after IBC, and whenever a new update rolls out that helps people further triangulate their course relative to Apple's.

To answer another question, repeat visits, also up.

OThe number of people who hit one page via a search engine and leave after one page (called bounce rate) has dropped by more than half. More people are coming, and they're staying longer. As a result, the percentage of visits by "regular" visitors has almost doubled. (Simple math, right?)

As far as tracking any individual visitor, well, we can, but sifting through millions of records would take some time. But it really is millions of records. If you were an advertiser, I'd get a lot more specific. :-)

Overall, we're on track this year to have well over 20 million unique visitors. In general, it's working.

What's not working is still the overall hostility levels, and we're working to bring THAT part of the forum back in line with what people should expect from the COW. But people as a group leaving? The opposite is happening. Regulars leaving? No, we're creating more regulars.

I regret any individuals leaving, and hope that they'll simply steer clear of this one forum, and move on to the over 200 forums that are moving as smoothly as they always have, including the one for FCPX Techniques.

Sorry to drone on about this. It's more than you were probably asking, but I didn't want to leave any questions. This is veering pretty far off topic, but if anyone has any other questions, please don't hesitate to contact me directly.

None of this changes what I said in another post: the hostility of some posters is simply unacceptable to us. We appreciate your patience while we try to herd the cows back onto the trail, because we do take this seriously.

Happy trails,
Tim


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Craig Seeman
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 21, 2011 at 10:17:19 pm

[Tim Wilson] "Sorry to drone on about this. It's more than you were probably asking,"

It is what I was asking for. As someone who consults for people who do live streaming, while slightly different than static webpages, these analytics are the kinds of things I talk about to explain what goals were achieved, where things might grow. I'd love to see a deeper discussion of analytics in the web streaming forum although this could be in the business forum as well. I'm not quite sure where the discussion would fit but no one seems to bring this up much in either forum and I think it's integral as you well understand.

[Tim Wilson] "Some people have been turned off by this particular forum. That's why we've labeled this one as the Debate forum, and set up another TWO MONTHS ago for people who want to get to work, and it's working."

I really think, as time passes, this forum might get beyond just FCPX and become a discussion of "industry trends." I would love to see the divergent analysis whether Apple or HP, etc and how that might impact our purchasing decisions with software and hardware tools. It could help anyone ranging from a single system purchase to a facility manager trying to asses the market.

The thing is discussion should be civil and substantial. It's certainly hard to "police" that but it's interesting how the discourse is compared to any of the technical or even the business forum.

[Tim Wilson] "You guys are literally the avant garde, which means that there are bunches of folks still behind. This hasn't even begun to peak.

Watch for another spike this time next month after IBC, and whenever a new update rolls out that helps people further triangulate their course relative to Apple's."


That's often why, when many of the tech companies that sell product (hardware of software) do focus studies, they ask if you define yourself as an early adaptor as well as whether other's come to you for recommendations. It might well mean that Apple's marketing dept. failed in its early adopter strategy.

If Apple really gets their API and related bug fixes out the door, IBC might be a good time for the plug in developers.

[Tim Wilson] "What's not working is still the overall hostility levels, and we're working to bring THAT part of the forum back in line with what people should expect from the COW. But people as a group leaving? "

Again only anecdotal but I've seen a few persons on other forums state that they are in other forms because of a level of discourse they had experienced elsewhere that they where not pleased with. I've never seen that previous to this forum. Hence the "alarm bell" I experienced in my head.

[Tim Wilson] "I regret any individuals leaving, and hope that they'll simply steer clear of this one forum,"

I think some people actually do want to discuss this sans animus. They may very well visit other COW forums but go elsewhere to get their non tech questions answered. Those would be newbies purchasing their first NLE or professionals wondering if FCPX is worth learning for the future. Those wouldn't be Techniques questions. That's why I think a civil "industry trends" type forum would be good... if only this forum could evolve into that.



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Tim Wilson
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 22, 2011 at 5:22:40 am

Thanks for taking the time to reply, Craig.

[Craig Seeman] "I really think, as time passes, this forum might get beyond just FCPX and become a discussion of "industry trends." I would love to see the divergent analysis whether Apple or HP, etc and how that might impact our purchasing decisions with software and hardware tools. It could help anyone ranging from a single system purchase to a facility manager trying to asses the market. "

Nicely said. In my mind, that's the endgame for this forum, not that it eventually merges with the FCPX Techniques forum.

I think that we can generally agree the kinds of issues you raise have been some of the best discussions here. This really is important stuff that falls well outside the scope of a single tool from a single vendor. It was more than that from the very beginning here, starting with the question of what's a pro, and what it means when you and your key vendors have different ideas about the answer.

We've tried to get these kinds of discussions started several times over the years, but couldn't find the right spark. One of the great things about the COW has been that people ask questions, get answers, and get back to work.

But we always thought it would be nice to have some place to speak much more broadly.


[Craig Seeman] "That's often why, when many of the tech companies that sell product (hardware of software) do focus studies...."

Apple has said repeatedly that they don't do focus groups. I hope that at some point somebody starts believing them.

Show of hands?


[Craig Seeman] " That's why I think a civil "industry trends" type forum would be good... if only this forum could evolve into that."

Civility is the key, but yes, that's exactly my hope...but I have a feeling that the next month or more is still going to be driven by what Apple does or doesn't do.

Thanks again for the thoughtful reply,

Tim


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Chris Harlan
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 22, 2011 at 7:02:38 am

I'd be totally behind a trends forum. The upside of this whole debate has been some terrific discussions of ideas.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 22, 2011 at 11:32:41 am

[Craig Seeman] "I really think, as time passes, this forum might get beyond just FCPX and become a discussion of "industry trends." I would love to see the divergent analysis whether Apple or HP, etc and how that might impact our purchasing decisions with software and hardware tools. It could help anyone ranging from a single system purchase to a facility manager trying to asses the market."

Agreed, this would be a great direction for this forum to take!

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Chris Harlan
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 21, 2011 at 10:59:24 pm

Fascinating stuff!


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Craig Seeman
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 22, 2011 at 3:32:35 am

[Tim Wilson] "None of this changes what I said in another post: the hostility of some posters is simply unacceptable to us"

Like this
http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/14475
Actually I'm pretty sure you are, but you and the glee club just need an excuse to jump on every thread that is not a slobbering love affair with movie hero.

Tim this is the garbage that is happening. This is NOT civil or even heated debate. It's immature schoolyard garbage.

http://www.creativecow.net/about/code_of_conduct.html
Accordingly, our primary task as the owners and management of Creative COW is providing an atmosphere conducive to generating:

Peer-to-peer support for all professional production issues.
A safe environment for students and other inexperienced individuals to enter discussions, whether presenting questions or answers.
Civil disagreements and reasonable criticism toward any products and services (including those offered by Creative COW advertisers, sponsors and partners), and other dissenting opinions between individuals.


Tim, comments like his cross the line on civil disagreements and reasonable criticism toward any products and services.



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Robert Brown
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 21, 2011 at 5:51:41 pm

[Gary Pollard] "There's actually a: "People are actually USING and liking this. How dare they?" mindset from some here. "

I think some of that comes simply from Apple's silence. Why is the whole FCP X thing such a big deal? Because it came from Apple. I for one don't want FCP X to become a competitor in the pro market. Why? Because I don't like the game Apple is playing. They call it Final Cut. They call it Pro. And both statements are untrue but they can get away with it because of who they are. I for one would only wish that they would just say we are transitioning out of the pro market, in words not just actions, and let us all move on. I think Apple's arrogance and the way they handled this whole thing is creating a lot of the tension.

Robert Brown
Editor/VFX/Colorist - FCP, Smoke, Quantel Pablo, After Effects, 3DS MAX, Premiere Pro

http://vimeo.com/user3987510/videos


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Craig Seeman
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 21, 2011 at 6:26:24 pm

It was marketed to professional editors at NAB. It has features that are targeting to professional editors as noted frequently in may discussions including the recent Keycode Media event. It is missing important features that both "professionals" and "amateurs" need. It is not currently usable in many professional workflow. One can't assume Apple won't target "professionals."

One can assume the marketing was premature relative the current feature set. It's clear they have been marketing it in "professional" circles despite its incomplete state. That's a marketing issue and yes that's a problem. But the marketing seems to indicate the intent of the product.



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TImothy Auld
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 21, 2011 at 7:01:33 pm

I'm not entirely clear why you can't assume one thing but can assume another.

bigpine


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Craig Seeman
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 21, 2011 at 7:37:05 pm

That FCPX was marketed to "pros" is not an assumption. FCPX was marketed at a meeting of professional editors at the NAB SuperMeet. As to whether it will meet those needs at some point is an assumption but Apple's marketing has been to "pros" hence the moniker matches their marketing attempt.

Although it's a bit more subjective regarding third party support but if one believes AJA (and others) makes "professional" i/o devices, they've stated and intent to support. It may be subjective regarding Boris, GenArts, RedGiant, Automatic Duck (and others) are developers of "professional" plugins but they've all stated they intend to support.

As to whether FCPX reaches significant market share in its targeting market is, again, admittedly debatable, but given Apple's marketing and developer promises, the target would be something one might call "professional" (and admittedly that's a term with many means). To apply my own definition, it's targeting some segment of the market who are inclined to spend money to buy tools in order to make money from use of the product.

If you want to say I'm making an assumption, OK, but I'm basing it on Apple's marketing and developers known to support a "professional" market. That NAB (really SuperMeet though) generally is dominated by professionals I think is reasonable. That companies such as AJA, Boris, GenArts, RedGiant, Automatic Duck also market their tools to "professionals" is also reasonable.

I guess one could argue that all the above developers would love to widen their market beyond "professionals" and Apple is certainly doing that . . . but that's not to the exclusion of "professionals."

As mentioned elsewhere, what Philip Hodgetts and Alex4d have explored also leads me to believe there's "professional" intent (whether it succeeds is another story).

If I'm making an "assumption" at least I'm providing evidence for it.
_______
The assumptions against FCPX being targeted to"professionals" as I understand it.
Missing or poorly implemented features which may or may not be addressed later (see above developers).
Apple mistakenly marketing to professional editors.
That the interface looks like the "consumer" app iMovie.

Personally I find none of the above very persuasive that the FCPX is not targeted to "pros" although it certainly may not be targeted to pros to the exclusion of amateurs. Some have stated that trying to do both is the crux of the problem but even this does not mean "pros" are aren't part of the mix of the target market.



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TImothy Auld
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 21, 2011 at 10:27:19 pm

Lots of assumptions and speculation. I guess we will have a firmer idea of where this is going come the equinox. For my part I assume that if Apple was truly interested in targeting the pro market they would've come out with some fixes for the many, many, bugs by now.

bigpine


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Craig Seeman
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 21, 2011 at 10:44:59 pm

[TImothy Auld] "For my part I assume that if Apple was truly interested in targeting the pro market they would've come out with some fixes for the many, many, bugs by now."

And on the other side maybe they feel they have to be a bit more ambitious on the first update given the response to the initial release. Yup the equinox will tell since they said "summer."

While it's only in the rumor mill, it's been reported that Steve Jobs was not happy about how things went and has gotten personally involved. Assuming that's true, we still don't know what they byproduct of that is.



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TImothy Auld
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 21, 2011 at 11:00:52 pm

I don't really buy that one. I forget which release it was but one of the FCP versions was so buggy Apple
did a dot update within days of its release. You don't build or maintain a customer base by leaving people hanging.

That said I wouldn't be surprised if Apple came with a usable version of X for those of us who need the myriad features it is missing. The question for me is if they can do it in time to retain the market share they have now. I have never been a cheerleader for any particular platform and my sole loyalty to Mac was based on FCP. I personally do not trust the company any longer. Their silence on this subject speaks volumes. There may come a time when FCP whatever comes along and its great and maybe at that point I'll be forced to give it another look. But after what was done with Shake and FCS3 I'll be quite wary about it.

bigpine


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Craig Seeman
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 21, 2011 at 11:16:13 pm

[TImothy Auld] "I don't really buy that one. I forget which release it was but one of the FCP versions was so buggy Apple
did a dot update within days of its release. You don't build or maintain a customer base by leaving people hanging."


I remember the FCP AutoSave disaster being around for some weeks. FCP would stop autosaving and eventual crash loosing all information at the point the autosave stopped which could be hours of work. It might have been early FCP 4 or FCP 5. It was not days for that one.

You can't force programers to release anything until they're finished and it's tested. There's no way to speed that beyond forcing programers to work without sleep and truncating the QA process. I do work with coders and "fatal" issues warrant "overnight" updates but everything else can and should be properly vetted first. They can not nor should they release anything until it's gone through QA. While you might have "instant" Oatmeal, there's no "instant" bug fix. It takes as long as it takes and Apple has said (yes SAID) "Summer" which means by Fall equinox. If you don't see an update by late September then you can claim Apple didn't deliver on a promised update.

http://www.apple.com/finalcutpro/faq/

Does Final Cut Pro X allow you to assign audio tracks for export?
Not yet. An update this summer will allow you to use metadata tags to categorize your audio clips by type and export them directly from Final Cut Pro X.


That's their promise. We'll have to wait and see if they deliver.



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TImothy Auld
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 21, 2011 at 11:45:06 pm

They also "said" they would be releasing "hooks" to third party developers within a few weeks. That was two months ago. They "say" a lot of things.

bigpine


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Craig Seeman
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 21, 2011 at 11:52:17 pm

[TImothy Auld] "They also "said" they would be releasing "hooks" to third party developers within a few weeks. That was two months ago."

I hear that is happening although they're behind on that. That's why developers hate giving dates. My guess is that FCPX has not been an "easy" development. My own opinion is that developers should be informed of such delays. I noted the Stu Maschwitz (of RedGiant) blog but we don't know the specifics of "talking" with Apple.

We'll see developers abandon ship and I suspect they'll do so publicly if they feel Apple has abandoned some key things developers need.



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 22, 2011 at 5:08:35 am

[TImothy Auld] "Their silence on this subject speaks volumes."

Apple's silence should not be a shock to anyone at this point.

They released an FAQ, they talked about upcoming features and admitted a beta program.

That's three pretty "amazing" things coming from Apple.


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TImothy Auld
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 22, 2011 at 11:05:05 am

I did not say I was shocked. I said Apple's silence spoke volumes. And it does.

bigpine


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 22, 2011 at 1:17:31 pm

[TImothy Auld] "I did not say I was shocked. I said Apple's silence spoke volumes. And it does."

And my point is they are the most vocal I've seen since they dropped out of showing at NAB.

So, we disagree.


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TImothy Auld
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 22, 2011 at 1:29:10 pm

So we do. That's life. Someone once said what a shock it is when intelligent people are presented with the same set of facts and come to very different conclusions. Whether or not we disagree on this or anything else I respect your point of view and find that your posts are well thought out and usually contain very useful information. So there.

bigpine


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 22, 2011 at 1:51:20 pm

[TImothy Auld] "Someone once said what a shock it is when intelligent people are presented with the same set of facts and come to very different conclusions. "

I think you are assuming my intelligence. I just play one on TV. :)

Thanks, Tim.

Jeremy


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TImothy Auld
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 22, 2011 at 2:00:55 pm

And here I thought is was my own intelligence I was assuming.

bigpine


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 20, 2011 at 8:49:24 pm

The people at the top of some cow forums aren't forum leaders, rather they are "top posters".

But some of them are leaders left over from the old style that never really post as much as other people. It's really unclear as to what is going on at the top of the forums, and also in world politics.

Supposedly I was a leader in the fcp7 forum, but my head is no longer up at the top as most of my posting lately has been over here trying to figure this out and discuss. Whatever, it doesn't bother me I'm just a volunteer, the point is that just because someone's head is at the top doesn't make them a traditional "forum leader" so you can't judge who is or isn't using the software from their picture, you can only judge the amount of posting they've been doing.

Also, I think my head might have been pulled as my wonderful dog was not allowed to be my avatar. Silliness. Do you guys care what one another looks like?


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TImothy Auld
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 20, 2011 at 9:08:33 pm

Sadly I'm not nearly as good looking as the pictures at the top of these forums.

bigpine


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 20, 2011 at 9:13:39 pm

[TImothy Auld] "Sadly I'm not nearly as good looking as the pictures at the top of these forums"

It's why I put my dog up there, much better looking than moi.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 20, 2011 at 9:43:53 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "It's why I put my dog up there, much better looking than moi."

And I learn so much from my cat that he's the real "leader" in the house. He works with me constantly. If the zoomed out a bit on the headshot you'd see my cat sitting directly behind me on the top of the chair. The COW cropped him out. I'd never do that in a company photo to an integral member of my staff.



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Craig Seeman
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 20, 2011 at 9:34:42 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "The people at the top of some cow forums aren't forum leaders, rather they are "top posters"."

I'm thinking it's that with some algorithm. I think the goal is to highlight the most helpful in a way that can change over time.

[Jeremy Garchow] "Supposedly I was a leader in the fcp7 forum, but my head is no longer up at the top as most of my posting lately has been over here trying to figure this out and discuss."

But you seem to have been decapitated here as well yet you seem to be a fairly frequent poster. It's why I speculate about an algorithm as well. There's also the ability to remove one's head at will . . . sounds a bit macabre.

[Jeremy Garchow] "Also, I think my head might have been pulled as my wonderful dog was not allowed to be my avatar. Silliness. Do you guys care what one another looks like?"

I'm sympathetic as my cat face was replaced. Heck if COW can put my puss up their why can't it be my puss. How's that for double entendre? I thought it was very appropriate since I think a few people here see that I can get my dander up and be a bit hissy. That cat certainly entertains both me and my clients when they come by to work with me so I thought he was an appropriate projection. Recently I've even had a client or two come by and when they see him for the first time they've exclaimed "your famous." It actually tells me a lot about image marketing.

It's with some irony that on your forum posts, you're now a cow. I vote for the return of your pooch...along with my puss.



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 20, 2011 at 10:45:49 pm

[Craig Seeman] "I think the goal is to highlight the most helpful in a way that can change over time. "

Must be the like button? Since I have been of the people who don't mind what fcpx MIGHT hold it makes sense. I am not helping those who don't like it which seems to be the majority around here.

[Craig Seeman] "Recently I've even had a client or two come by and when they see him for the first time they've exclaimed "your famous." It actually tells me a lot about image marketing."

That's so funny as it happens to my dog too! People walk in and say, I've seen you! he has no idea what they are taking about.

[Craig Seeman] "It's with some irony that on your forum posts, you're now a cow"

I put that up, actually. New members get that image as one of their avatars until they change it. I though it was weird that new members got an animal, and my dog isn't allowed, so I figured I'd put up a COW sanctioned cow.

[Craig Seeman] "I vote for the return of your pooch...along with my puss."

+1


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 20, 2011 at 10:04:36 pm

Jeremy,

Don't freak out... You haven't been pulled or your dog picture discriminated against. I have it from the highest sources that you're still a valued Cow leader in spite of your apparent loss of reason lately.

The fact is, the Cow infrastructure is undergoing extensive rehab, and the entire forum leader thing has unfortunately become ambiguous and very confusing in the interim. So, freak not, your volunteer efforts on the Cow are still remembered. And, one day this war is gonna end.


David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new tutorial: Prepare for a seamless transition to FCP X and OS X Lion
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/FCP-10-MAC-Lion/1

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 20, 2011 at 10:49:29 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "your dog picture discriminated against. "

Mmm, it was pulled and another picture of me from when I wrote an article was put up.

I returned my dog, and it was replaced again. Thats when it went up 'For Rent'.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 20, 2011 at 10:53:05 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Mmm, it was pulled and another picture of me from when I wrote an article was put up.

I returned my dog, and it was replaced again. Thats when it went up 'For Rent'.
"


Well, that would lead one toward a bit of doggie paranoia... I'd ask Abraham what's going on if I were in your shoes (paws?) (hooves?).


David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new tutorial: Prepare for a seamless transition to FCP X and OS X Lion
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/FCP-10-MAC-Lion/1

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Glen Hurd
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 20, 2011 at 9:48:00 pm

Ironically, I spent so much time editing my reply, to keep it as focused as I can manage, the name of the forum was suddenly changed. Ron moves fast. And controversy certainly never hurt traffic - heh. I'm sure Ron knows that "as iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens the wits of another." This is probably one of the most educational forums on the cow right now.

And since it is now a stated goal to welcome debate (scary to think that we may reach a time when debate must first be welcomed before diverse opinions can be tolerated), I'll expand on what I wanted to respond to.

You said new users might be put off by what was happening here. I would disagree. Here's how.

The young and inexperienced are being offered a great service in this forum - they are being given the opportunity to hear opinions from many sides on what makes for a good edit tool and what doesn't.

Instead of walking into a situation completely blind, they are getting point and counter-point.

If they don't want to think, they don't have to read at all.

But if they have big dreams and limited resources, they're going to weigh everything that's been said, and have an even deeper appreciation for the philosophical underpinnings that lie at the base of every application.

Like a boxing match, we essentially have two contenders.

In one corner the "old" idea that an edit tool should be a canvas upon which you can throw all your resources in a visual representation that depicts their relationships to a static timeline - and a humble willingness to share all its work - while maintaining sync - with many many other programs that are designed specifically for finishing - audio, color/grading, f/x work.

It should also offer ways of connecting to industry-standard hardware to maintain quality control.
While some might say this is a system that is tied to a dying industry (broadcast), I would remind them that a pursuit of quality is a product of competition.
Millions of drones post on Youtube, but only a relative few harness enough viewers to actually make a living.

One of my favorites is freddiew. He is a young star destined for greatness, and he definitely has to operate in this first corner - and probably has never produced broadcast work in his life. His standards require having access to many tools and a few like-minded friends, and FCP X (the upgrade to FCP 7) would cut him off at the knees.
He did a piece on "Epic VFX" - bringing video editing to the streets!
Watch the counter at the bottom :)



I'm still laughing.


In the other corner, we have what Apple said would be the upgrade: FCP X
It tries to do everything within the confines of a single program.

In spite of it's space-age underpinnings, it's very philosophy forces radical departures from previously accepted workflows.
Not once have I heard anyone discover a method of color-correcting that is superior to what was offered through Color or is available through Resolve.
I haven't heard anyone talk about hooking up control surfaces to it so they can mix 16 channels of audio with their favorite Waves compressor/limiters and voice-enhancing plugins.
No one has demonstrated the ease with which you can export plates for rotoscoping, while maintaining sync with the original material.

Instead we hear that this the new wave of editing. But according to who? Randy?
What characteristics define the new wave of editors? The film-uneducated?
Who is the new audience? Corporate cubiclists forced to watch another boring "movie" on the differnece between a crush and sexual harassment?

Youtube, unfettered, will be the definition of who survives and who's ignored. Once the excitement of seeing 1,000 talking cats dies down, competition will still drive quality, and quality is something most easily achieved when work can be shared, and a pipeline isn't boiled down to one application.

With FCP X you can't even create a new ecosystem. It's the roach-motel of edit systems - ie it's the only edit system being pitched as "professional" that forces you to spend $500 on third-party software so you can play with others.

Of course, no one has said that FCP X is unusable. But it's revealing when I see a thread labeled "Real world job on FCP X" and it turns out to be a behind the scenes piece of a photographer taking snapshots of cakes for the wife.
Man, you gotta love the "real world."

So, as a newbie, you have to decide. Are you the type of person who just wants to learn one application and hope it's going to grow exactly as you need it to? Knowing that any muscle-memory you devleop will be completely wasted if you try and transfer your skills to another package?

ie. Do you feel lucky?


Or do you like to keep your options open, and have the ability to add other software programs to compliment your system as your own needs and resources grow?

Ask yourself, how is Apple's knowledge of production - at any level - and insistence on parking their production future in FCP X's corner superior to Avid or Adobe or Autodesk's approach - who are firmly planted in the first corner?

These are good questions. Aren't they? And we don't ask them to be abusive. We ask them to learn. And if you find yourself struggling, you might want to consider the unimaginable. That your loyalty to FCP X may have more to do with loyalty to Apple than to your profession - if editing is your profession.

Everything I've just said is a distillation of the discussions going on in this forum, and would NEVER have been made had the "haters" been banned from contributing here.

Maybe "hater" is just the new "thinker."


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Craig Seeman
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 20, 2011 at 10:20:38 pm

[Glen Hurd] ""as iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens the wits of another.""

. . . and for hardy folk this is good. Some tenderfoots may look for softer environs.

[Glen Hurd] "he young and inexperienced are being offered a great service in this forum - they are being given the opportunity to hear opinions from many sides on what makes for a good edit tool and what doesn't."

That discussion is very good. Some of the discussion has been reduced to name calling (not always people so much as the software under discussion).

When one post says "I don't like the magnetic timeline because..." and another says "I do like because..." that's certainly a good discussion.

If some say "it's a piece of crap" or "it can't do..." without any explanation and someone is then put off by the forum because informative debate is obscured by derogatory comments or claims devoid of substantiation then people will look elsewhere for information.



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David Roth Weiss
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 20, 2011 at 10:30:27 pm

[Craig Seeman] "When one post says "I don't like the magnetic timeline because..." and another says "I do like because..." that's certainly a good discussion.

If some say "it's a piece of crap" or "it can't do..." without any explanation and someone is then put off by the forum because informative debate is obscured by derogatory comments or claims devoid of substantiation then people will look elsewhere for information."


Actually Craig, while I understand the distinction you've made above, I don't believe what you've pointed out is really the problem here on this forum. The problem here, as I've mentioned, has nothing to do with even the most outlandish points about the software, it's what's said about people. The software and Apple itself should not be considered sacred, it's human beings (i.e. our fellow Cow members) who should be sacred here.


David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new tutorial: Prepare for a seamless transition to FCP X and OS X Lion
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/FCP-10-MAC-Lion/1

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 20, 2011 at 10:34:04 pm

"The software and Apple itself should not be considered sacred, it's human beings (i.e. our fellow Cow members) who should be sacred here."

Actually, I think it's only Cows that should be treated as sacred.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 20, 2011 at 10:56:11 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Actually, I think it's only Cows that should be treated as sacred."

Ha! Nice one, Herb.


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Herb Sevush
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 21, 2011 at 5:30:35 pm

Thank you, it's nice to be appreciated.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Chris Harlan
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 21, 2011 at 2:25:07 am

[Craig Seeman] "someone is then put off by the forum because informative debate is obscured by derogatory comments"

Well, we all are human after all. (winky emoticon here)


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Chris Harlan
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 21, 2011 at 2:17:16 am

Extremely well said. I would also like to add that I have thought more, intellectually, about editing while participating in this debate, then I have in a long time. It has been very refreshing.

And, hey man, I'm a Freddy fan, too.


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Glen Hurd
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 21, 2011 at 2:23:37 am

Another freddie fan? Here? Every time I watch him, I'm 25 again, with better toys. Very cool . . . and thanks. :)


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Steve Connor
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 21, 2011 at 9:01:00 am

Thanks for the contributions everyone, I think this thread positions the forum perfectly now for anyone who cares to read it.

Steve Connor
Adrenalin Television

Have you tried "Search Posts"? Enlightenment may be there.


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Rafael Amador
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 21, 2011 at 10:54:02 am

[Steve Connor] "I also find it strange that many of the forum leaders don't use the software and do not plan to."
What you should find strange, is that from so many people involved in FCP Forum in the COW for years, only David, Jeremy, Craig and your self are backing FCPX.
I understand that FCPX fits your needs, but as you can see most people needs are quite different than yours.
How can't you understand that for 50% of FCP users in the world (a camera, a Mac and FCP), all this revolution MAKES NO SENSE.

[Craig Seeman] "I know of no other COW forum where so many faces on top either don't use, don't like, aren't interested in helping users of the software except to the extent they can discourage people."
Yes Craig, you may call it "discouraging": Discouraging people is what I've been doing here for the last few years.
Discouraging people of taking wrong workflows, discouraging people of investing in wrong solutions, discouraging people of getting flashed by marketing messages and strategies.
I prefer to see it the other way: I've been encouraging people to what I honestly think are the best practices and solution.

If this would be the Pharmaceutical industry (where manufacturers are accountable for what they sell), FCPX wouldn't be in shelves of the pharmacies. Nobody recommends a drug that hasn't been tested.

The "Debate" is important not just for FCP/FCPX users. Apple is telling me to go to re=education and forget all the shit i've learnt in 25 years.
For me the question is simple: Is necessary to rethink the way to edit movies, just to make the same movies?
(And please, don't tell me about efficiency, speed, metada....I'm talking about movies).
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Steve Connor
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 21, 2011 at 1:38:06 pm

Rafael, Of course I understand why probablY the majority of FCP users are disappointed with FCPX and cannot use it. I also understand what a giant mistake Apple made in EOLing FCP7. I have never argued against any of those points.

Steve Connor
Adrenalin Television

Have you tried "Search Posts"? Enlightenment may be there.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 21, 2011 at 2:10:01 pm

[Rafael Amador] "What you should find strange, is that from so many people involved in FCP Forum in the COW for years, only David, Jeremy, Craig and your self are backing FCPX. I understand that FCPX fits your needs"

I feel the need to clarify something here.

I am not "backing" fcpx. As a matter of fact, I have repeatedly said we can't use it on a daily basis. Of the five capable edit stations in the shop, only one has FCPx on it, and thats mine.

I am giving it an honest to goodness look though, this is true. The only way I can figure out if it's going to be good enough to use, is to use it. When someone says "it can't do this", I like to go prove it one way or another. This is true of any software I use, not just the recent fcpx release. Also, I never make rash decisions when it comes to my livelihood.

The reality of why we can't use it right now (besides the absence of interconnection/baseband video out/etc, which I call the FAQ problems, those are "addressed" by the FAQ):

- Our shop is getting to a point where we need central storage, at some point all of use work on everything that passes through. We are a small company and shared storage is a major purchase. As a matter of fact we are beta testing a new product from Sonnet that is a mix of fibre and Ethernet all based around an NTFS windows server driven by metaSAN. FCPx does not work at all with this system, so strike one.

- FCPx isn't quite stable. In the time that I've played with it, it hasn't felt stable enough to use. It crashes sometimes, there's a few buggy quirks, but to its credit, I haven't lost anything due to the constant saving.

- Format support needs improvement if fcpx wants to be a modern NLE. Hopefully this will change once developers get a hold of the hooks, but this remains to be seen.

Now, this is what I see as potential from FCPx and this why I am giving it a chance:

- Event/project sharing and collaboration seems to be built in. If you look at the structure of the events and Projects, it seems that sharing is going to be a feature and not an after thought of fcpx. This is going to be important for us. Also, Apple recognized this and started FCServer which was basically an organization and metadata application for FCP7. They of course killed it, but I imagine that some of it is going to make it in fcpx.

- Organization. Oh man, the organization in FCPx is awesome. We have a younger editor in our shop, and he does not organize very well, he brings everything in unnamed and unorganized. We have been training him to stop this process because when we get the projects from him, we have no idea what is what. At the very basic level of organization, if he did this with FCPx, we could at the very least sort by date. Also, I think FCPx suggests to you to assign meaningful names to things. In my opinion this is good, and will teach GOOD habits (and the process is extremely fast). I am a pretty organized editor and fcpx will make it even easier for me.

- Speed. Its fast. It's modern, and feels like the NLE is finally in the 21st century of Mac computing.

- Tools. Better audio filters, better text tools, scopes, and overall quality of the tools. Sure, the color board is kinda weird, but it does work and work well. Blows the doors off the 3way CC and brings a lot of of the basic Color options right to the fcp timeline (masks, secondaries, keying, etc).

- Apple recognizes trends. Call it good, call it bad, but they have a pretty good sense of where things are going. You have to remember, they weren't the first company to release an mp3 player or a smart phone, but look what happened when they did. At the recent Avid event that I watched online, one of the Avid reps got up and assured the crowd that they would never change the basics of how the Avid interface works, and everyone applauded. I found that statement to be a disappointment. We are at a point of great change. Sometimes it's hard to see when you're standing in the middle of it, but things are moving fast.

So, I'm not backing it, just giving it a serious look. We simply can't stop using FCS3 at this time.

If we do decide to switch, then we are going to have to learn a whole new system anyway, so in that regard fcpx is no different.

Notice how I didn't even mention the magnetic timeline?

[Rafael Amador] "Apple is telling me to go to re=education and forget all the shit i've learnt in 25 years."

Really? How?


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Craig Seeman
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 21, 2011 at 4:32:37 pm

People who want to learn about the program are being discouraged. There's a lot of name calling going on. One can discuss what FCPX can/can't do without that. Also there are people who are interested in the business/industry models and all they get is flippant "left the pro market" type responses. Very deep analysis with that (sarcastic).



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Gary Huff
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 22, 2011 at 2:11:09 am

[Craig Seeman]People who want to learn about the program are being discouraged.

So? If someone comes on here and reads the posts and decides not to bother with FCPX why is that such a bad thing? Are you really suggesting that discouraging someone from learning FCPX is going to somehow harm their future well-being? Seriously? What if they come on here and decide to put that $299 towards a copy of AVID or Premiere instead? Are they not just as viable a solution?

See, the problem with so much of this Apple evangelism is the sometimes not-so-subtle message that FCPX WILL BE 100% the absolute new standard in video editing within 2-3 years. I find that idea absolutely ludicrous, so please stop with that basic assumption that fills all these posts.

There's a lot of name calling going on.

Please provide an example of this instead of merely asserting it.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 22, 2011 at 3:26:10 am

[Gary Huff] "There's a lot of name calling going on.

Please provide an example of this instead of merely asserting it."


Exhibit A

http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/14475
you and the glee club just need an excuse to jump on every thread that is not a slobbering love affair with movie hero.



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Gary Huff
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 22, 2011 at 2:38:47 pm

"Glee club" was name calling? I guess you hate glee clubs then.

I think you are stretching the definition of name calling there, Craig.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 22, 2011 at 2:58:36 pm

It's not the kind of comment I'd using talking to clients or co-workers and that's the standard I'd use in a place where professionals converse.



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Gary Huff
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 22, 2011 at 7:36:53 pm

So that's your own opinion.

And I've had clients make much more disparaging remarks against whatever in the industry they don't like than the term "glee club."

How thick is your skin, Craig? Doesn't seem like a lot.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 22, 2011 at 8:48:48 pm

[Gary Huff] "How thick is your skin, Craig? Doesn't seem like a lot."

At the water-cooler is one thing. In a meeting room I hope for a certain amount of decorum. Those are my personal expectations. Given a forum is a public place with many onlookers I'm mindful of the words I choose and I'd hope and expect others to be as well.



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Gary Pollard
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 22, 2011 at 11:35:32 pm

Ah well, I assume you don't think "Luddites" is name-calling either then.

____

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"



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Gary Huff
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 22, 2011 at 11:54:05 pm

[Gary Pollard]Ah well, I assume you don't think "Luddites" is name-calling either then.

Fair point, but I wouldn't get my panties in a twist over it either.

Unless your entire argument against people who think FCPX isn't the end-all, be-all rests simply on an assertion that they are Luddites. Hasn't been outright said here, but more than not-so-subtly implied.

So, tit-for-tat.


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Gary Pollard
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 23, 2011 at 12:34:37 am

Not the entire assertion no, and as I said I too see the limitations in FCP X.

"The Luddites were a social movement of 19th-century English textile artisans who protested – often by destroying mechanized looms – against the changes produced by the Industrial Revolution, which they felt were leaving them without work and changing their way of life."

Frankly I have rather more respects for the genuine Luddites than for glee clubs. Because the genuine Luddites were right.

____

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"



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Gary Pollard
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 22, 2011 at 12:47:49 am

[Rafael Amador] "I prefer to see it the other way: I've been encouraging people to what I honestly think are the best practices and solution. "

Interesting. So do you also go to all the other forums for software and equipment you don't use and don't like, and encourage people out of their misguidedness there?

____

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"



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Gary Huff
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 22, 2011 at 2:14:50 am

[Gary Pollard]Interesting. So do you also go to all the other forums for software and equipment you don't use and don't like, and encourage people out of their misguidedness there?

Gary, don't you find this a little uncalled for and even petty?


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Gary Pollard
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 22, 2011 at 3:28:54 am

No, I find it a direct question. I do not use Nikon cameras and doubt I ever will. I do not go to a Nikon forum to show Nikon users the error of their ways, or tell Nikon users they are amateurs.

The fact is that I have recently pointed out ALL the limitations of FCP X for broadcast to the TV station with which I work, and as a result I do not think they will be moving to it any time soon.

However, I do not feel compelled to trash EVERY positive or engaged comment on the software that appears here, or its users. And that is what people have been complaining about.

And let's not pretend that doing so is a "public service". Venting is venting.

____

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"



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Gary Huff
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 22, 2011 at 4:22:10 am

[Gary Pollard]I do not go to a Nikon forum to show Nikon users the error of their ways, or tell Nikon users they are amateurs.

Gary, you are stretching Rafael's point into a direction that I don't think he intended for it to go. Hopefully you are not doing it intentionally.

However, I do not feel compelled to trash EVERY positive or engaged comment on the software that appears here, or its users. And that is what people have been complaining about.

Every comment? Really? Hyperbole is also not going to win you any brownie points.


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Daniel Frome
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 22, 2011 at 12:31:03 pm

Frequent lurker here. I don't wish to get entangled in a long forum battle and that's why I mostly remain quiet, but since you are speaking apparently on behalf of regular users (which includes me) I'll share my opinion on the matter.

- Yep, a lot of people bash FCPX in this forum. However, no, I don't think they should be told to head for the nearest exit. Even through some personal attacks the resulting information is valuable. I value it, at least.

- The 'controversy' definitely doesn't drop the forum visits. On the contrary -- it keeps people like me coming back to check in.

- In general I see you're tired of people 'venting' their negative thoughts on FCPX. Down the at the office (ie. the studio I work at) all the FCPX hate died off about a month ago. We basically moved on with our lives and so I somewhat see your point. Funny side note: Only one of our editors (who hadn't participated in the water cooler talk) came into my office last week and, I paraphrase, "Holy crap... so apple is actually killing off their pro lineup.. I mean, this isn't even a pro software anymore, no wonder you guys are doing those avid tutorials at lunch." ;)

Anyway -- I think we're gong to have to tolerate each other for a while to come. I may not use FCPX, but that doesn't mean I stop visiting and maybe commenting here or there. I still consider "Final Cut" a part of my job and have a certain attachment to the brand - as do all the other 'FCPX haters' I am sure. That's the reason they keep chiming in. Love-Hate relationship, etc. As for the people who just want to get on with FCPX and learn it... unfortunately you're like the kid in a bad divorce, and it'll stay that way for at least a few months to come.


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Glen Hurd
Re: Some thoughts on the FCPX Forum
on Aug 23, 2011 at 7:20:31 am

Good input.


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