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Apple presents at NAB 2012 - declares sincere friendship.

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Aindreas Gallagher
Apple presents at NAB 2012 - declares sincere friendship.
on Aug 19, 2011 at 12:01:25 am








http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Craig Seeman
Re: Apple presents at NAB 2012 - declares sincere friendship.
on Aug 19, 2011 at 12:10:56 am

But Apple is going to sell a boat load of those alien guns, declaring them the weapon of the future. Lots of people will walk out claiming their Smith and Wessons are just fine. I mean like where do you load the bullets and why the heck would someone make a gun that doesn't use them.



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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Apple presents at NAB 2012 - declares sincere friendship.
on Aug 19, 2011 at 12:54:21 am

craig, but for the love of god, leading you into my rant - it would be fine if the ray gun worked, but the ray doesn't work. you can slam your hand on it and scream at it, but this ray gun doesn't work. I'd *love* a ray gun, I want to love this ray gun, it's tantalising, but this ray gun doesn't work.

it doesn't work bud.

when a music based edit means you have to flood the storyline with the tune and shift all video off the primary into the arbitrary laws of secondary and compound.. which having tried it is actually true.. it's lunacy how badly the restrictions of metaphor and action they templated have been thought out.
Apple have intrinsically failed in perceiving the true gamut of editing. they have Craig.
Their imposed metaphors fall over in nearly every direction.

This software is incredibly aggressive in conception but - Its storyline metaphors fail in practise, its colour board is a joke, its GUI is too heavy with chrome, its organisation is too restricted to meta-data, allowing no visual spatial organisation of elements (that's bin windows drag and drop), the locked single window mode is completely inappropriate, the various timecode and audio meter representations are a joke...

this is actually failed software. that's the worst of it. I wouldn't mind if it was simply controversial, but its not - this is expensively failed software. Which means its probably like the palm OS within HP. It's soon to be dead software.
As in - the entire FCP wing of editing is gone.

And that was a needless act, given that the patient apple took the knife to was in rude health.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Chris Harlan
Re: Apple presents at NAB 2012 - declares sincere friendship.
on Aug 19, 2011 at 1:03:57 am

Yup.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Apple presents at NAB 2012 - declares sincere friendship.
on Aug 19, 2011 at 1:36:16 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "when a music based edit means you have to flood the storyline with the tune and shift all video off the primary into the arbitrary laws of secondary and compound."

While it needs some significant improvements I'm not off put by that way of working. Secondary Storylines in particular need a lot of improvement. Personally I think it will happen.

[Aindreas Gallagher] "but the ray doesn't work"

We don't know how the ray gun will work until it's complete and then we need to spend the time learning the alien technology.



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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Apple presents at NAB 2012 - declares sincere friendship.
on Aug 19, 2011 at 2:00:58 am

God's honest truth?
I don't believe we will have an FCP of any sort 36 months from now. I would lay a fiver.
As the near last professional software man standing in cupertino - editing in apple has... what? two/three years to live?

FCPX is a care nothing last gambit to broadly monetise something Apple could give a tupenny damn about.

There won't be a single - 52 weeks a year occupied - FCP seat left in two years. that I will bet real money on.

Apple are out. They're gone.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Apple presents at NAB 2012 - declares sincere friendship.
on Aug 19, 2011 at 2:20:00 am

I'm shivering.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Apple presents at NAB 2012 - declares sincere friendship.
on Aug 19, 2011 at 3:08:25 am

Well, it, FCPX, and it's dead forebearer FCP7 - that's a lot of dead software Jeremy, it's a lot of prior skills, and a lot of dead earth in a limited software field. Nobody is making physical implements akin to cameras for the act of editing. We're reduced to a software company operating at a loss - avid, then adobe, and some open source.

There have been some incredibly stupid comparisons made to spreadsheets and word processors when it comes to the editing process in FCPX. Phillip hodgetts warbled on about how linked clips were paragraphs. Thats all balls.

The point - surely - is that editing is, irrevocably, a physical process sublimated to software - the cut one makes on h264 is, in the moment, the same as the razor blade on celluloid, one does not requires the link, it is inherent. But apple say for example - shoved in absolute tagging - thereby virtualising the incoming footage and making it in effect a sprite - it doesnt go anywhere, it is replicated like a cloned wart into multiple tags and sections of it are replicated into other multiple tags or even pre-determined smart collections. So Sprites are everywhere. Is the propagation of mirror halls of sprites within keyword collections appropriate to editing source material? Or is it just intellectually lazy regurgitated bullish*t from iTunes and aperture? Don't get me started on events.

god Jesus but this software is annoying.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Apple presents at NAB 2012 - declares sincere friendship.
on Aug 19, 2011 at 4:00:33 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "Well, it, FCPX, and it's dead forebearer FCP7 - that's a lot of dead software Jeremy, it's a lot of prior skills, and a lot of dead earth in a limited software field. "

Nothing lasts forever and technology dies fast. As a matter of fact, FCP had a pretty good run.

Your skills shouldn't die with FCP7 though, right?

[Aindreas Gallagher] "But apple say for example - shoved in absolute tagging - thereby virtualising the incoming footage and making it in effect a sprite - it doesnt go anywhere, it is replicated like a cloned wart into multiple tags and sections of it are replicated into other multiple tags or even pre-determined smart collections."

So what platform are you moving to?


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Craig Seeman
Re: Apple presents at NAB 2012 - declares sincere friendship.
on Aug 19, 2011 at 2:29:00 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "FCPX is a care nothing last gambit to broadly monetise something Apple could give a tupenny damn about."

Amongst other things FCPX "job" is to sell Macs and I suspect the goal is to do it more broadly than just feature film and broadcast editors. Unless you think Apple is going to give up on computers (and I know some think that), they will invest in FCPX to move Macs.



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David Lawrence
Re: Apple presents at NAB 2012 - declares sincere friendship.
on Aug 19, 2011 at 3:18:09 am

My prediction:

Apple drops the price to $199, rebrands it iMovie Pro, and exits film and broadcast. You heard it here first.

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
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facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


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Craig Seeman
Re: Apple presents at NAB 2012 - declares sincere friendship.
on Aug 19, 2011 at 3:26:15 am

[David Lawrence] "exits film and broadcast."

They already have for the time being. That doesn't mean they've exited the professional editing market and it doesn't mean that it will develop back into the workflows that film and broadcast will become.



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Andy Field
Re: Apple presents at NAB 2012 - declares sincere friendship.
on Aug 19, 2011 at 3:50:29 am

Craig, you seem well intentioned, but it's baffling why you are such an apologist for this Half baked FCPX software. Your posts wax poetic on what the software might someday be while editors need something that works now. FCP7 works now but I for one won't update another piece of system software or Quicktime component now fearing Lion 1 point something might break the editing system that powers and funds my business. FCPX doesn't do half of what the previous version did professionally (we've detailed it ad nauseum) Yes it does some things faster (no transcoding....and...well that's about it) And the - as one video reviewer graphically put it -- "kick in the weiner" - not opening old timelines effectively killed FCP as a professional platform for 90 percent of the editors who loved the program from version 1 through 7.

Seriously Craig, is Apple hiring you to cheer lead this slap in the face to the professional community?

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Carsten Orlt
Re: Apple presents at NAB 2012 - declares sincere friendship.
on Aug 19, 2011 at 4:01:27 am

Andy, you seem well intentioned, but it's baffling why you are such an hater for this new baked FCPX software. Your posts wax poetic on what the software is not while editors work with it now. FCP7 works now but I for one won't update another piece of system software or Quicktime component now fearing Lion 1 point something might break the editing system that powers and funds my business. FCPX doesn't do half of what the previous version did amateurishly (we've detailed it ad nauseum) Yes it does some things faster (no transcoding....and...well that's about it) And the - as one video reviewer graphically put it -- "kick in the weiner" - not opening old timelines effectively killed FCP as a amateur platform for 10 percent of the editors who loved the program from version 1 through 7.

Seriously Andy, is Andreas hiring you to cheer lead this slap in the face to the amateur community?

All the best to all you nerds :-))


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Chris Harlan
Re: Apple presents at NAB 2012 - declares sincere friendship.
on Aug 19, 2011 at 4:14:02 am

Andy, I most definitely share your opinion of FCP X, but to be fair to Craig, he has been very straightforward about acknowledging many of the downsides of FCP X. He definitely sees a lot more in it than I do--and, I agree, he is quite the booster--but over the long hall he has been fairly even-handed with his views. I say this in spite of his calling me both a profanity-prone caravan salesman, and, I believe, a cockroach. I've certainly learned a few things from discussing and/or debating with him (I have now called him a cockroach, as well) and his zeal has made me take extra looks at FCP X. Unfortunately, the extra looks did not help much.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Apple presents at NAB 2012 - declares sincere friendship.
on Aug 19, 2011 at 4:56:56 am

I won't ever claim FCPX in its current state is a great NLE. It not only fails in many professional uses but in many "prosumer" functions as well. I'm frustrated as heck at what it can't do or doesn't do well.

But damn it does some things so well (as far as how I really want to work) that I have to think it's simply incomplete. If it made sense as a prosumer or amateur product I'd be more worried. It just seems they were able to reach some targets and did next to nothing in other areas. It's uneven. That is has some potentially useful "high end" features leads me to believe Apple will bring the rest along. Some things were probably easier for them to implement than others.

Given Alex4d's investigation, whether some things were dropped or not yet developed, you can get a sense that Apple knew they were missing some targets and decided it was going to get out the door in its current state.

Even with it's limited feature set it's really solved a couple of workflow situations. I recently had a job which was supposedly both live streamed and recorded by the camera person. Well something went wrong with the camera recording. The server recording of the stream existed though. They were H.264 .mp4 files. The turn around had to be blazing fast. I downloaded the .mp4 and imported them into FCPX. No time to transcode. I didn't even create ProRes versions of the media in the "background." I dropped the files in and FCPX created an "Other" timeline in ProRes at 640x480. After some quick cuts only editing, I exported a 35 minute piece out to ProRes in under 4 minutes. I then used Matrox MXO2Max and encoded that 35 minute piece to H.264 .mov in under 10 minutes. I then FTPd the file to a client.

So at $299, for the price of many plugins, FCPX succeeded at a job that would have taken longer in FCP7 (but maybe not longer in Premiere Pro with CUDA).

I can't help but believe this powerful engine in the go cart body is going to get a much improved body as time goes on and they can implement things to Apple's satisfaction.

Apple has a history of having an "all or nothing" approach to features. When we think of the iPhone's biggest single asset, it's the apps. The first iPhone had no app store (nor was I interested in buying one). I think the same development will happen with FCPX. Is there any reason to wait for that? No if you need to move beyond FCP7 now. At $299 it'll be pocket change for people to move back when (if, if your more skeptical) the time comes.

I certainly can't speak for a big facility where costs are magnified but I can stay with FCP7 until FCPX matures or move to Avid and neither would cause me great stress. I just don't think Apple would invest the R&D into FCPX without having a long range plan . . . not yet executed.

As to cockroaches, I could have sworn this forum was created in the mind of Franz Kafka. As to profanity, I hear a lot of you cursing in my head. I won't even tell you what I think happened to Chris Kenny.



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Chris Harlan
Re: Apple presents at NAB 2012 - declares sincere friendship.
on Aug 19, 2011 at 5:06:03 am

Craig, as I've said before, it'll be cool if you are right. I think Larry Jordan's expressed view tonight is right, and that a pretty good picture will emerge with the first or second update.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Apple presents at NAB 2012 - declares sincere friendship.
on Aug 19, 2011 at 5:25:24 am

[Chris Harlan] "I think Larry Jordan's expressed view tonight is right, and that a pretty good picture will emerge with the first or second update."

Yup. And I think when he called FCPX schizophrenic he pretty much mirrored my thoughts on its uneven development. Some features are "pro" and some are like "why can't you execute a simple function"

My own guess is the next update will be mostly bug fixes and the one after that will be the first round of features.

An example of how uneven it is is that the product left the house before all the APIs needed for developers.

It's like ordering a meal in a restaurant and the outside of the food is nice and crispy like you like it but the inside is uncooked.

One of the things to look for in where Apple's FCPX "philosophy" will be heading is the first feature update. Will it be functional features or "razzle dazzle" (or some combination)? Basically it will expose their priorities as well as their difficulties.



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Craig Seeman
Re: Apple presents at NAB 2012 - declares sincere friendship.
on Aug 19, 2011 at 4:17:29 am

[Andy Field] "it's baffling why you are such an apologist for this Half baked FCPX software. Your posts wax poetic on what the software might someday be while editors need something that works now."

I have FCP7 for now. After spending 12 years on Media Composer, even with the changes, I can jump back quickly enough if I had to. I'm just not that worried because Apple, despite having made mistakes, generally gets things right eventually. I just don't think Apple would have marketed it as "professional" unless they intend for it to meet that market (or more likely what they believe that market will be in the future).

I've said that I think Apple's marketing department blew it because they appeared to be selling "the present" and not "the future." Also they allowed for no transition period as they did when going from OS9 to OSX.

[Andy Field] "FCPX doesn't do half of what the previous version did professionally (we've detailed it ad nauseum) Yes it does some things faster (no transcoding....and...well that's about it)"

Which is why I've said they've built a good engine in a go cart body. I suspect they're going to do a lot of body work over the next couple of years.

[Andy Field] " not opening old timelines effectively killed FCP as a professional platform for 90 percent of the editors who loved the program from version 1 through 7."

Because they were focused on the engine and didn't want to invest R&D in this. Bad move but apparently they did investigate and weren't happy with the results. They don't seem to believe an imperfect but simple timeline import would have been useful. Maybe they had problems with the way clip pointed to the media files as well as how that relates to a timeline which doesn't use anything like the previous time structure. Sometimes a companies fails to execute a feature and they have to accept that and move on with the project.



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Gary Huff
Re: Apple presents at NAB 2012 - declares sincere friendship.
on Aug 19, 2011 at 9:54:03 pm

[Craig Seeman]Because they were focused on the engine and didn't want to invest R&D in this. Bad move but apparently they did investigate and weren't happy with the results.

Please stop spreading the myth about Apple's perfectionism. It's a myth, they aren't really like that. I would be willing to bet that opening legacy FCP projects was never a part of the design and it was just a decision, not something that was considered at any given stage and then removed due to technical reasons.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Apple presents at NAB 2012 - declares sincere friendship.
on Aug 19, 2011 at 11:42:12 pm

[Gary Huff] "It's a myth, they aren't really like that. I would be willing to bet that opening legacy FCP projects was never a part of the design and it was just a decision, not something that was considered at any given stage and then removed due to technical reasons."

Alex4d had dug into the resources in FCPX and has found a fair amount of interesting things. Certainly open to interpretation.

http://alex4d.wordpress.com/2011/07/18/secret-fcpx-xml-multi-user-editing/

It depends how one interprets this


We know from Apple’s Final Cut Pro X FAQ that XML workflows will be supported. There references here too. In a file that describes the XML import function (Final Cut Pro/ Contents / Frameworks / Flexo.framework / Versions / A / Resources / en.lproj / FFXMLImport.nib), there’s the option to import media and Final Cut Pro Classic markers and effects:

_Check Box (Include Effects)
Zcheckboxes
_.Check Box (Import media referenced by the XML)
[Button Cell]AccessoryView
_Button Cell (Include Markers)\File’s Owner
_&Check Box (DEBUG: Export after import)
_Check Box (Include Markers)
ZDisclosure
_Button Cell (Include Effects)
_(Button Cell (DEBUG: Export after import)
_#Text Field Cell (Advancecd Options)[Application
_0Button Cell (Import media referenced by the XML)
_Static Text (Advancecd Options)




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Gary Huff
Re: Apple presents at NAB 2012 - declares sincere friendship.
on Aug 20, 2011 at 5:15:34 pm

Great! Will that be part of the update in December 2012?


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Gary Pollard
Re: Apple presents at NAB 2012 - declares sincere friendship.
on Aug 19, 2011 at 11:45:08 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Amongst other things FCPX "job" is to sell Macs"

Ironically, I bought into Mac only recently SOLELY to use FCP for professional editing.

And I am now using it to edit Premiere, which is a pity as the Windows version of Premiere is better than the Mac one. More fool me.

FCP X is an interesting experiment, and I find it interesting to edit with, but I can't use it for broadcast projects.

____

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Apple presents at NAB 2012 - declares sincere friendship.
on Aug 20, 2011 at 2:05:25 pm

[Gary Pollard] "And I am now using it to edit Premiere, which is a pity as the Windows version of Premiere is better than the Mac one. More fool me. "

Your Mac can run windows.


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Gary Pollard
Re: Apple presents at NAB 2012 - declares sincere friendship.
on Aug 21, 2011 at 12:32:28 am

At a performance cost though, apart from the cost of another operating system

____

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Apple presents at NAB 2012 - declares sincere friendship.
on Aug 21, 2011 at 12:41:53 am

But your investment isnt wasted, that's all.


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Tim Wilson
Re: Apple presents at NAB 2012 - declares sincere friendship.
on Aug 21, 2011 at 2:33:22 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Your Mac can run windows."

But not nearly as well.

Disclosure: I'm writing this on a Mac. I also use Windows.

The limitation of Boot Camp is that you're still on a Mac, which has never had the fastest video cards. There will always be less GPU acceleration, because Apple always chooses slower GPUs. Always.

You're heard of the Mercury Playback Engine, right? It's accelerated graphics acceleration from NVIDIA that Adobe uses. Go to NVIDIA's site, look for the page called "Built for Adobe Professionals." (Can you imagine such a page at Apple.com? Never going to happen.)

Beefiest Mac Quadro: 2 GB RAM/256 cores. Beefiest on Windows: 6 GB RAM/448 CUDA Cores.

Guess which goes faster? A LOT faster.

So yes, you can use Premiere on Mac. If you're committed to Mac, why would you not? The performance of CS 5 on Mac blows FCP 7 away.

But with all respect to Adobe's commitment to outperform Apple on the Mac (including going native loooong before FCP did), speaking for myself only, I believe that long-time Mac-only artists will be amazed at what they have been missing when they play with CS on Windows.

Not because Adobe loves Windows better. Because NVIDIA and Intel and a bunch of other architecture guys love Adobe, and everybody else that plays on their platform and wants to go faster.

And Apple doesn't like anyone especially well, including YOU. It's not that Apple has abandoned pros. It's that they have always treated pros like everyone else, including third party vendors. "If our plans are working out for you, that's great. But our plans are our plans, regardless." Apple has never deviated from this course.

In comparing and contrasting Apple's commitment to elegance at the cost of performance, I'm certainly not saying that the performance of Adobe CS comes at the price of inelegance. You'll see exactly what you're in for on Windows with the experience of CS5 on Mac. Just more slowly.


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