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Real World job on FCPX

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Craig RussillRoy
Real World job on FCPX
on Aug 18, 2011 at 2:29:11 pm

HiYall,

thought i would throw a few words together on my FCPx experience on a paying job.

Background; been editing for a million years on all the usual suspects - I have recently started helping my wife in her company proposepr.com (check out vimeo) and the majority of the work has been shot on a D5000.

Previously i would transcode on MPEGStreamClip or Episode and import to Final Cut Server with Metatagging and all the fun stuff - i recently decided to try FCPx on this recent shoot which required me to film 24 elegant cakes for a look Book - while a photographer was taking the pics - a behind the scenes if you wish

So on set i had my 2011 17inch MacBook Pro - 3 SD cards camera and a great attitude - i would shoot and save to a external HD (800FW) i would then add these to the FCPx Project - I have to tell you with the stabilize, rolling shutter and Color Corrections - this was the best edit i have done in a long time

I found the interface clunky to start but hammered it all out and with the few flashes and stuff i was exporting to Vimeo - seamless.

So why write this - well coming from a 25 year Broadcast and Post background this is not the tool for you right now for broadcast - but i can see Apple are focusing completely on the DSLR/Prosumer market with these tools - I loved my experience as it has highlighted to me that editing is just that - to be a amazing compressionist, file wrangler is great - but it was so lovely to get back to the art !!

Just a positive note in this sea of dispair !

Adstream
London, England

Mac Pro - 8gig ram - FCS 3 - CS4 - Cinema 4D, Flip Factory, Rhozet, Episode


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Paul Jay
Re: Real World job on FCPX
on Aug 18, 2011 at 3:52:07 pm

In the end it's about the shots and the story.
FCPX is a great tool. Not a FCP7 Upgrade, but a great new tool.


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Scott Sheriff
Re: Real World job on FCPX
on Aug 18, 2011 at 6:35:16 pm

[Paul Jay] "In the end it's about the shots and the story.
FCPX is a great tool. Not a FCP7 Upgrade, but a great new tool."


Well, not so much.
In the end it's a business, and it's about the bottom line, and the folks that control the checkbook. Which is easy for a lot of youtubers to forget since they operate in a vacuum. In the professional world, editors are far removed from the decision making process, and the opinions of EP's, Producers and Directors carry a lot more weight than an editors. Here's an example.
I recently finished a long format shoot and post for a national level non-profit. I received the usual phone call from the producer (a national level freelancer) about what camera I have, edit platform etc. In that conversation, the red flag went up when I said I used FCP. With it only moving forward on my assurance that I was not using "the new Final Cut". Without boring everyone with the minutia of that, and subsequent conversations about the Producers preferences, let me paraphrase some of what she said;
A flashy demo reel is meaningless, since there is often no way of knowing the true origin of the material, or how long the person spent on what is in it, even if it was all done by them.
If you are not using Avid, or Final Cut 6/7, you're probably an amateur or inexperienced editor.
She knew Avid and Final Cut well enough to keep up with what was going on in the session by watching the timeline, and had no interest in learning a new UI, and could not see any benefit in doing so.
The ability to open legacy projects, and the confidence that the edit platform generate a project that can be opened in the future is of utmost importance. The ability to share the project with other professionals for sweetening, etc, was equally important.
I'll skip the inflammatory remarks she used in describing the proponents of Final Cut X, but let me say she had a rather low opinion of their skills and judgement, and thought of them more as computer geeks, and less like editors.
As I said, this Producer had the clients checkbook, and was the decision maker on who got what work on this project, as well as others. So if you intend to work in the business in a national, or even semi-national level, where working as part of a team is the norm, and that team is often comprised of others who don't know you, a lot of 'first impression' others have about you as a craftsman is your choice of tools.
Incidentally, this project went to DVD, and not the web. The CEO wanted a tangible to hand out at a meeting, so having DVDSP was also helpful.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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Mark Dobson
Re: Real World job on FCPX
on Aug 18, 2011 at 7:03:29 pm

Scott,

Your producer, like many people, seems to have a lot of uneducated preconceptions about FCP X. does she edit herself? Has she spent time with the programme?

Basically FCP X was probably more than adequate for the job you did for her. Maybe you could have shown her some of the features, maybe you could have turned the job around faster through using the new software?

To catagorise the wide range of editors who are learning to use FCP X as amateur or inexperienced editor is just expressing ignorance.

Bad workmen blame their tools. A craftsman will produce good work using the most basic tools because it's what's in your head, the experience you draw on, that's more important.

Sure there are loads of things that will need to be incorporated into and improved with FCP X, the I/O situation being the most crucial, but it is deceptively complex and certainly up for a wide range of professional work at both
the entry level and at the high end of digital video editing.

But maybe it's all just about image.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Real World job on FCPX
on Aug 18, 2011 at 7:16:01 pm

I don't know where you located, Mark, but as someone who was part of the push over the last decade to convince Los Angeles producers that FCS was a viable professional tool, I can tell you with confidence that FCP X has done serious damage to that movement. And you know what, I think that is a GOOD thing. After years of being and FCP evangelist, I'm extremely happy that word is out about FCP X's shortcomings. By the way, the "bad workman" mantra is getting a little tired. Could I make something good with FCP X? Certainly. Thank goodness I don't have to.


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Scott Sheriff
Re: Real World job on FCPX
on Aug 19, 2011 at 1:00:52 am

[Mark Dobson] "Your producer, like many people, seems to have a lot of uneducated preconceptions about FCP X. does she edit herself? Has she spent time with the programme?"

Yes, she can do basic editing in Avid and FCP, but is primarily a Producer.

[Mark Dobson] "Basically FCP X was probably more than adequate for the job you did for her. Maybe you could have shown her some of the features, maybe you could have turned the job around faster through using the new software?"

No, you apparently misread my post. I could not have done the job with X, because the Producer would not have booked me if that was what I was using.
And no, I couldn't have turned the job around faster because X doesn't integrate with Motion or Color, and of course there is no DVD authoring.

[Mark Dobson] "To catagorise the wide range of editors who are learning to use FCP X as amateur or inexperienced editor is just expressing ignorance."

Well, I would have a hard time calling a Producer with the type of credits this gal has 'ignorant'. If you watch TV, you have seen her work. And you don't produce for 30 years, and have a NetJets account and two assistants if you don't know what you're doing.

[Mark Dobson] "Bad workmen blame their tools. A craftsman will produce good work using the most basic tools because it's what's in your head, the experience you draw on, that's more important."

Well if I saw my mechanic working on the beemer with those cheap tools made in china that round-off the bolt heads, that you can buy at flea markets for two dollars, I would kick his ass. If I hired a finish carpenter to come and do trim work and he showed up with a beat up, rusty saw, no level, and no sandpaper, I would get a different carpenter. I would have to agree that ones choice of tools, tells a lot about the person using them. And for those that choose Final Cut X, I have to agree with the producer.
You see, in a way you are right, a craftsman can produce good work with simple tools if he had to, but a craftsman would not intentionally choose to use, or support an inferior tool.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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Mark Dobson
Re: Real World job on FCPX
on Aug 19, 2011 at 10:55:05 am

Hi Scott,

Sorry, but I was too busy working to get back to you + i'm in England and probably asleep when you are awake.

Don't think I'm knocking your huge top end professional experience, or that of your client, it's just that a lot of people have simply joined the FCP X is crap band wagon without actually gutting to grips with it and there are a lot of great features that are really missed when you work back in FCP7.

There are very few things you can't do in FCP X that you can do in FCP7 - sure you haven't got the easy round tripping into Color or Motion. But it really isn't that difficult to get material in and out of Motion and as time passes superior 3rd party color correction will be incorporated into the application through companies such as Red Giant Software. Incidentally, DVD Studio Pro still works just fine and whilst bundled within FCS has always been a standalone application.

Whilst supporting your argument, equating an editor using FCP X to a carpenter or mechanic using bad tools just doesn't ring true. FCP X, whilst lacking certain attributes, is perfectly capable of producing top end broadcast specification material. And well up to the task of producing material to be published on DVD.

And lets remember that it is just a tool, just as FCP7 or Premier Pro or Avid is.

If in a years time FCP X has not opened up to allow broadcast spec monitoring and full integration with 3rd party post production tools your producers opinions and your analysis will sadly be proved right - but I see the application as a starting point not a dead end.

Mark Dobson
Producer and Director
Alembic TV
http://www.alembic.tv


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Bill Davis
Re: Real World job on FCPX
on Aug 18, 2011 at 9:19:09 pm

I was reading with much interest until I got here...

"Incidentally, this project went to DVD, and not the web. The CEO wanted a tangible to hand out at a meeting, so having DVDSP was also helpful."

And every thing crashed down in my thinking.
DVD? Really. That's the level the CEO is stuck at? Plastic discs for a meeting. Wow.

If the CEO had a clue, he would have simply ended his presentation with a slide containing a QR code - and told anyone wanting a link to the video to take a picture of it with their phones. Or put the same QR code on an easel at the exits. Of course there are people who don't have smart phones - but many, MANY do - and that's orders of magnitude more efficient than producing and passing out plastic discs.

If the point is to send out something that people perceive a valuable "take away", a branded thumb drive on a lanyard would have made a hundred times the impression at little extra cost and has the attendant glow of giving someone a thing that remains USEFUL if they no longer need the content.

DVD's and CD's have little to NO perception of value any more. They are rapidly becoming "landfill fodder" because the moment a person comes to realize you don't NEED a plastic disc to access the content anymore, the very concept becomes kinda quaint.

Plastic discs are a sure sign that you're thinking backward, not forward.

How many of them will YOU be throwing out in the next few years? I bet that CEO's disc will be at the top of the heap - and his "producer" will have her "awakening" not long after.

The physical "production suite" is an endangered species, IMO. It's rapidly following the monolithic "Recording Studios" in music. Every large town had those once upon a time. Today, outside of big media centers like LA, Nashville, or NYC, they're GONE. Like "video production facilities" they were an artifact of the need for big power, big air conditioning and big engineering staffs, and folks who felt that spending the day sitting on someone's couch at a remote edit suite in order to "supervise" was a smart business model.

I'm sorry, It's NOT. I still have my edit suite and couch, but I've known for a while that it's only a matter of time before it goes away!. That's because my client is as likely to be sitting in San Diego or St. Louis as here on my couch watching me push buttons for hours at a time.

The experience Scott describes is very real. Still very much alive. But it's aged, inefficient, and under huge pressure from the economic realities of the ACTUAL needs of the production process. The "video editing suite" approach with racks and racks of rapidly depreciating gear, miles of wiring, massive electrical and AC loads all around a "client chair" where people have to come, sit and make one comment every half hour is silly. That's where that particular "producer" is stuck. She's bought into a "this is professional" and nothing else is as professional mindset and holding that is what's keeping her from even CONSIDERING stuff like QR codes and thumb drives.

She doesn't see that if the same skilled editor cutting in the fancy "edit suite" took his or her laptop down the street to Starbucks - they could most likely sit down there and apply the SAME talent and achieve the same quality they can get back in the studio - with NONE of the overhead.

That's the massive change. And it's unavoidable.

My 2 cent's anyway.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Scott Sheriff
Re: Real World job on FCPX
on Aug 19, 2011 at 12:31:37 am

[Bill Davis] " was reading with much interest until I got here...

"Incidentally, this project went to DVD, and not the web. The CEO wanted a tangible to hand out at a meeting, so having DVDSP was also helpful."

And every thing crashed down in my thinking.
DVD? Really. That's the level the CEO is stuck at? Plastic discs for a meeting. Wow.

If the CEO had a clue, he would have simply ended his presentation with a slide containing a QR code - and told anyone wanting a link to the video to take a picture of it with their phones. Or put the same QR code on an easel at the exits. Of course there are people who don't have smart phones - but many, MANY do - and that's orders of magnitude more efficient than producing and passing out plastic discs.

If the point is to send out something that people perceive a valuable "take away", a branded thumb drive on a lanyard would have made a hundred times the impression at little extra cost and has the attendant glow of giving someone a thing that remains USEFUL if they no longer need the content.

DVD's and CD's have little to NO perception of value any more. They are rapidly becoming "landfill fodder" because the moment a person comes to realize you don't NEED a plastic disc to access the content anymore, the very concept becomes kinda quaint.

Plastic discs are a sure sign that you're thinking backward, not forward.

How many of them will YOU be throwing out in the next few years? I bet that CEO's disc will be at the top of the heap - and his "producer" will have her "awakening" not long after."


Laugh all you want. The DVD's helped me get more of the gig, not less, a nice fat check, and booked a couple more gigs from some of the guys that saw the DVD. I guess that shows not all CEO's are t-shirt wearing hipsters like Jobs.
Anytime you don't want any of these backward thinking jobs, please send them my way, I'll be more than happy to take their cash and give them what they ask for.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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illya laney
Re: Real World job on FCPX
on Aug 19, 2011 at 3:46:07 am

Dailies for a majority of the biggest films, commercials, and TV shows in the world end up on DVD and/or services like DAX or PIX(and soon nextSPOT). I'm trying not to sound like a money-grubber, but you can charge for encoding time and delivery too. I know a few studios that will actually charge $150 for supplying, labeling, and encoding each DVD.


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Scott Sheriff
Re: Real World job on FCPX
on Aug 19, 2011 at 6:35:11 am

[illya laney] "Dailies for a majority of the biggest films, commercials, and TV shows in the world end up on DVD and/or services like DAX or PIX(and soon nextSPOT). I'm trying not to sound like a money-grubber, but you can charge for encoding time and delivery too. I know a few studios that will actually charge $150 for supplying, labeling, and encoding each DVD."

You're absolutely right. In my case doing DVD's was an additional revenue stream for me the client was happy to pay for, and another thing you can't do (DVD with real menus) with X. Pushing the client into thumb drives, and other 'more modern' suggestions would have not generated additional income for myself, and not what the client asked for. I keep hearing how DVD's are 'dead', but I have had a continuous demand for them, and have had zero requests for thumb drives, Bluray, and only about 20% wanted some type of web encoding, or QT files in addition to their DVD's. As far as quantity, most runs of DVD's are small between 25-500.
So are DVD's really dead?
Apple, and the studios would love for you to think so, but it seems like the public is having a hard time being pushed into yet another format change.
About a year and a half ago the area Target, Wally world, and other big box types completely pulled DVD movies, and players, replacing them with BR. But in the last 6-9 months DVD players, and movies have made a quiet comeback in these stores, with what seems like more models of players than before, and about a 50-50 split on DVD vs Bluray discs. Even as BR players and discs have been slashed in prices to try and boost sales. It wouldn't surprise me if DVD outlasted Bluray in the long run.
As far as why clients want DVD's? I have heard a number of reasons, most of which I'm sure would cause the DVD haters to post some counter argument, so I'll just pass on posting them. I don't care why they prefer them, I'm happy to make them, and as long as people ask for them, it is additional income.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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Bill Davis
Re: Real World job on FCPX
on Aug 19, 2011 at 8:54:54 pm

Scott,

I never have and never wlll quibble with anything that's based on a "satisfy the client NOW" mentality.

Everyone here with any experience at all, knows that this is one of the unbreakable the golden rules of business.

What I'm trying to signal is a reality I've seen over and over again in my career. I had boxes of 5,10,15,30, and 60 minute VHS loads plus all the attendant boxes and labels and mailers necessary to produce client dubs back in the day. And one day I realized nobody wanted ANY of them anymore. They ended up in a dumpster. Same with my audio cassettes. Same with my DC-2000 computer tapes and Jaz Drives and Zip Drives and Syquist carts.

They were all totally useful right up to the moment they all became TOTALLY worthless.

DVD "will" be the same - trust me. Thats because it does a thing (distributes video) that something else (the net) increasingly does WAY more efficiently and easily.

I don't advocate dumping it tomorrow if your clients are still asking for it. I advocate understanding that it WILL be dumped and getting both yourself AND your clients ready for that to happen.

Simple as that.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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MIke Guidotti
Re: Real World job on FCPX
on Aug 20, 2011 at 5:24:10 pm

[Bill Davis] "DVD? Really. That's the level the CEO is stuck at? Plastic discs for a meeting. Wow."

I'm not sure what market you work in but most Fortune 500 companies conference rooms are still based around DVD players and RGBHV (that's VGA for you non-technical types). They have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on automated conference rooms and are not quick to adopt and upgrade to new technologies. Additionally DVD is a format that the video can be distributed in that has almost universal acceptance.



[Bill Davis] "If the CEO had a clue, he would have simply ended his presentation with a slide containing a QR code - and told anyone wanting a link to the video to take a picture of it with their phones."

Once again most executives for Fortune 500 companies are using company Blackberry phones which are locked down tightly with security and downloading a QR code reader is just not an option.


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Scott Sheriff
Re: Real World job on FCPX
on Aug 20, 2011 at 8:11:20 pm

[MIke Guidotti] "I'm not sure what market you work in but most Fortune 500 companies conference rooms are still based around DVD players and RGBHV (that's VGA for you non-technical types). They have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on automated conference rooms and are not quick to adopt and upgrade to new technologies. Additionally DVD is a format that the video can be distributed in that has almost universal acceptance."

That is one thing the DVD has going for it. There are so many places for failure in distributing video on a thumbdrive, on the users end that you have no control over. Everyone knows how to play a DVD, and they don't require any technical knowledge. And there are players everywhere, even in the car these guys are being driven around in.
The other thing the DVD has going for it is surface area. Both on the disc, and the jacket. These are convenient places to put logo's, additional info, etc, that a person can simply read, without 'going to the web'. Believe it or not, some people still like that sort of stuff.


[MIke Guidotti] "Once again most executives for Fortune 500 companies are using company Blackberry phones which are locked down tightly with security and downloading a QR code reader is just not an option."

I have also seen operations that have a prohibition on thumb drives being used on the company system for security reasons. Since the DVD can't be used to record anything once it is finalized, they are not a threat for data theft.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?


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Clint Wardlow
Re: Real World job on FCPX
on Aug 18, 2011 at 3:52:25 pm

Been wondering whether I should go with FCPX. I am not a pro in the traditional sense, but more of an experimental filmmaker. I do a lot of projections and non-linear narrative (along with more traditional stuff). However, I currently use tracks extensively to layer audio & video and my biggest fear is that the magnetic timeline will limit my ability to control these elements to the degree I want. Now that you have worked on a real project, I thought I would ask: is FCPX flexible enough to edit audio position with the precision I need or does the automatic functions make this unworkable. Now that all the pro&anti FCPX rhetoric has died down a bit, I was hoping maybe you might be able to give me an answer. Whether I stick with FCP or move to Adobe is a big financial decision for someone like me.


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Tom Wolsky
Re: Real World job on FCPX
on Aug 18, 2011 at 4:01:25 pm

Can you get to an Apple store? Many of them have it installed now. You should try it.

All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Coming in 2011 "Final Cut Pro X for iMovie and Final Cut Express Users" from Focal Press


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Clint Wardlow
Re: Real World job on FCPX
on Aug 18, 2011 at 4:17:39 pm

That is actually a great idea, Tom. Don't know why I didn't think of it before. I have looked at many a tutorial and found them more aimed at traditional linear narrative that didn't answer my questions. I really didn't want to sink $399 plus the $499 for automatic duck (I do need the ability to send audio to Pro Tools on occasion). I there is an apple store close by, and maybe they well let me take FCPX for a spin. Thanks again....it is really hard to get straight answers with all the emotions flying around FCPX...especially for someone like me with such non-traditional needs and workflow.


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Rafael Amador
Re: Real World job on FCPX
on Aug 18, 2011 at 5:15:13 pm

[Craig RussillRoy] " i can see Apple are focusing completely on the DSLR/Prosumer market with these tools "
I see Apple focusing on Apple.
[Paul Jay] "In the end it's about the shots and the story. "
As a video-editor, working for who knows, I don't give a dam about the shots and the story.
I will have the same shoots to cut and the same story to tell whatever the NLE I use.
I care about working comfortable and with full control on my processes.
Right what i don't get with FCPX.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Bill Davis
Re: Real World job on FCPX
on Aug 18, 2011 at 5:25:07 pm

Just on the "non-traditional workflow" comment...

Nobody seems to know the source, but the "if the tool you're holding is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a nail" meme is pretty powerful, IMO.

To me, it speaks to how organized thinkers who learn particular linear process tend to see there world in relation to that process. This is maybe part of why FCP-X has annoyed so very many people so very much.

FCP-X is clearly forcing some people to re-consider some fundamental editing traditions.

The interesting proposition is whether these less "invested" and perhaps more "non-linear" thinkers (please, this is not pejorative - only descriptive in this particular very narrow sense!) who seem to be having a lot easier a time with FCP-X will also be the folks who figure out new ways of doing new things with the new toolset.

After all, this is the original tradition of the first FCP.

It was absolutely not the DigiBeta drivers who were responsible for it's early success, it was all of the upstart DV folks who kept arguing that 25mbps was fine for a lot of practical video tasks.

In the modern era, the most successful digital video revolutions have been those that percolated "bottom up" rather than dripping "top down."

Worth considering, anyway.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Chris Harlan
Re: Real World job on FCPX
on Aug 18, 2011 at 6:07:28 pm

[Bill Davis] "In the modern era, the most successful digital video revolutions have been those that percolated "bottom up" rather than dripping "top down.""

That's probably true, Bill. What you might want to consider, however, is the degree to which FCP X is actually from "the top down," no matter how hard the marketing department and unrelated boosters tout its revolutionary qualities. About the only thing "bottom up" is the way it works with dslrs; everything else is dictated down. Not being able to mix well just so you don't have clip collisions ain't no revolution. In fact, it is the kind of bureaucratic thinking that tends to foster them.


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Bill Davis
Re: Real World job on FCPX
on Aug 18, 2011 at 8:12:53 pm

I hear what you're saying.

I'm just thinking of two things. First, a few years ago on one of these boards, somebody was doing a commercial spot - and I was telling them that it was important that it not go "a frame over 30 seconds."

They popped back to report that the "commercial" was not for broadcast, but for the web only and therefore no 30 second requirement. In my traditional brain, the entire definition of a "commercial" was built around time avail conformance that was an absolute industry standard. But the poster wasn't playing the game the way I was thinking of it. I had to broaden my personal definition of what a "commercial" might be or risk becoming irrelevant myself.

That was a powerful lesson for me. I have to constantly re-assess what my former "standards" might be and whether they're still active in this particular situation.

If you MUST conform to :29 second 29 frame timeslot (or a 43:15) one - then a rigid timeline is a very useful thing. But if not, maybe not.

Secondly, the real point I'm exploring is whether what they "ripped out" of FCP to make X - while it might be VERY relevant to a particular well-established linear tradition - might spawn some new traditions that might be even more relevant to the way people will want to get things done in the future.

We're ALL guessing about that. Apple included. They're a business full of smart people who can get access to anything they might want or need by virtue of their current industry stature.. They saw the need to re-imagine editing. Why? I have to suspect that this was the result of their team members (or at least Randy U and Brian M and the other core team leaders) seeing some possibilities that simply weren't on the table within the classic FCP code base. So they bit the bullet and took the big step.
Only time will tell if it was a smart one. But I don't think the contention that they did it capriciously holds any water. I say that because you can be SURE they mix with people at the VERY top end of many disciplines in the digital realm. Chip architects, coders, human interface designers, etc. And with access to all that expertise, there will a zillion voices who could tell them that what they thought would be possible in the long range was either likely or not likely. I have to believe that they coded FCP-X with an eye to what will be likely. With that in-house expertise and access to any human or physical resources they needed, they decided to make a HUGE change in direction.

What we're all debating is whether that was a foolish mis-step to force people to do things that aren't as efficient or natural, or a smart bet based on real changes in digital manipulations of visual data that are coming toward us that most of us don't yet see.

I'm not saying I have any answers. I just know that remaining focused on the past is NOT usually the smoothest path to the future.

We'll see.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Clint Wardlow
Re: Real World job on FCPX
on Aug 18, 2011 at 8:31:17 pm

Actually my biggest fear is that FCPX is just a "hammer." That it forces you to edit in a very specific style that isn't conducive to more free-form creativity. That it is aimed at hammering out product as quickly and painlessly as possible at the cost of hamstringing the more subtle art of editing.

Now I admit that I could be very wrong on this as I haven't had the chance to give FCPX a turn around the block (unfortunately I don't make enough money on my projects to be able to afford purchasing every editing system under the sun --when I upgrade or alter what NLE I use it is a sizable outlay in cash for both software and hardware--so, I have to make my decisions very carefully because I will be stuck with them for a long time).

That is why I came here. I haven't really heard much about how FCPX works for guys like me -- only what is lacking for professional mainstream editors or how great it is for people shooting DSLR video. Is FCPX just a "hammer" or a full toolbox? I would really like to know.


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Steve Connor
Re: Real World job on FCPX
on Aug 18, 2011 at 10:14:13 pm

[Clint Wardlow] "Actually my biggest fear is that FCPX is just a "hammer." That it forces you to edit in a very specific style that isn't conducive to more free-form creativity. That it is aimed at hammering out product as quickly and painlessly as possible at the cost of hamstringing the more subtle art of editing. "

It doesn't 'force' you to edit in a particular way and the only limits to free form creativity are where they have always been - in the hands of the editor. Y

Steve Connor
Adrenalin Television

Have you tried "Search Posts"? Enlightenment may be there.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Real World job on FCPX
on Aug 18, 2011 at 10:27:38 pm

[Steve Connor] "It doesn't 'force' you to edit in a particular way and the only limits to free form creativity are where they have always been - in the hands of the editor."

If you don't learn exactly how FCP X works you will be unable to accomplish any work. Is that not the definition of being forced to work in a particular way?


David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

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Steve Connor
Re: Real World job on FCPX
on Aug 18, 2011 at 10:45:50 pm

No more than any other piece of software

Steve Connor
Adrenalin Television

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Sohrab Sandhu
Re: Real World job on FCPX
on Aug 18, 2011 at 11:22:11 pm

[Steve Connor] "No more than any other piece of software"

Not exactly.

I have been working with FCP for more than 7 years now. Recently,I started trying out Adobe's trial version. PPro's interface is a lot more like FCP 7. Infact a lot more similar than FCP X. I think i work faster in PPro than in FCP X simply because of this reason.

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Bill Davis
Re: Real World job on FCPX
on Aug 18, 2011 at 11:13:29 pm

Mr. Weiss,

That's just total and utter hogwash.

I had my copy for all of half an hour and I was able to take more than an hour of field interviews , overlay a timecode window burn, cut out selects - then turn that window dub around and email it to a client for their paper edit. The process took LESS time than it would have in FCP 7 precisely because I didn't have to wait for the timecode to fully render before I could start cutting selects with it.

It's an area where X performs BETTER than 7. Period.

You can argue that that's "not real editing" all you like - but I doubt any one else here thinks that basic preparation tasks like this aren't "real editing" and they can be done just fine in FCP-X with little or no training.

Look, just because it doesn't do what you'd like it to do - precisely the way you're stuck in doing it - your attitude that it's total dreck for everyone else says much more about your personality at this point than it does about the product.

Sorry to sound harsh, but my personal opinion is that you have one, single, solitary note that you keep playing over and over and over again in this forum. Normally I kind of shrug it off, but sometimes your willingness to make these sweeping, unsupportable, attacks just seems silly.

We get it. You don't like it. That's fine. But at this point you're sounding a bit like the grumpy old guy who nobody want to hang with because all he ever does is complain endlessly about his sciatica.

The way to stop the pain is to CHANGE SOFTWARE. You'll feel a LOT better. Trust me.

BTW, remember how you took me personally to task for what you felt were my overly histrionic capitalizations?

What precisely makes snarky underscores any different?

Just sayin.

Peace.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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Clint Wardlow
Re: Real World job on FCPX
on Aug 19, 2011 at 3:00:45 am

Steve Connor It doesn't 'force' you to edit in a particular way and the only limits to free form creativity are where they have always been - in the hands of the editor.

In a way I feel this is a cop out answer. It seems to assume creativity exists only in the artist noggin. To realize a vision all artists need tools, and the quality of these tools will effect the art produced.

An example of this would be an artist armed with only a box of crayons. Sure he can exercise his craft with those crayons, but what he produces is going to be directly effected by the tools at hand. Take this same artist and give him access to a whole array of brushes, oils, and acrylics. Suddenly his art takes on whole range of possibilities beyond what was possible with the crayons.

Art does not pop fully formed from the artist's head, but is a marriage between his creativity and the tools he wields. The more possibilities his tools offer, the greater his ability to fully give form to his creativity.

Now I am not saying FCPX is a box of crayons while FCP7 or Avid or PP are a full palate of oils, brushes, and acrylics. What I am saying is that FCPX and its magnetic timeline does look very limiting towards the kind of art I produce. I could be wrong on this. That is what I am trying to determine.


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MIke Guidotti
Re: Real World job on FCPX
on Aug 20, 2011 at 5:35:11 pm

[Steve Connor] "It doesn't 'force' you to edit in a particular way and the only limits to free form creativity are where they have always been - in the hands of the editor."

Lets go back in time to when everyone was using Steenbecks or KEMs. Steenbeck comes out and says "We are no longer offering dual viewers, and will only give you 3 plates."

Would you have said the same?


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Scott Sheriff
Re: Real World job on FCPX
on Aug 19, 2011 at 6:51:05 am

[Clint Wardlow] "Actually my biggest fear is that FCPX is just a "hammer." That it forces you to edit in a very specific style that isn't conducive to more free-form creativity. That it is aimed at hammering out product as quickly and painlessly as possible at the cost of hamstringing the more subtle art of editing."

Not only is it just a hammer, but it's that little dollar store hammer that your wife keeps in the junk drawer to hang up pictures with. It is not anything a craftsman would use in the real world. But to hang some pictures up in a hallway, it's perfect.

Scott Sheriff
Director
http://www.sstdigitalmedia.com


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David Lawrence
Re: Real World job on FCPX
on Aug 18, 2011 at 8:04:10 pm

[Clint Wardlow] "there is an apple store close by, and maybe they well let me take FCPX for a spin."

This is an excellent way for you to check out FCPX, I did it just the other day. The nice thing is you can play with Apple's car demo project, the same one you see in all of their marketing videos. So it gives you an idea of how Apple thinks a project should be structured. Even though I have a copy of FCPX and have been playing with it for a couple months, I found this very informative. I suggest everyone try this.

Hint - unless you're using Lion and are used to "natural" scrolling, the first thing you should do is go to system prefs and turn it off. Otherwise, you will go insane.

I was able spend about a half-hour on a laptop trying things out. You won't have any trouble getting your hands on it and learning enough to assess if it fits your needs.

[Clint Wardlow] " do a lot of projections and non-linear narrative (along with more traditional stuff). However, I currently use tracks extensively to layer audio & video and my biggest fear is that the magnetic timeline will limit my ability to control these elements to the degree I want. "

I do this kind of work too. My gut is that if this is what you need, you'll find the magnetic timeline unusable. It really favors simple, linear assembly and doesn't offer the flexibility you get with tracks for the kind of layered, non-linear projects you describe. If you need multi-track audio mixing, you'll hit a wall immediately. There's a reason that you don't see any audio mix screen shots in any of Apple's FCPX marketing material.

But do check it out and report back. I'm curious what you'll think.

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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Real World job on FCPX
on Aug 18, 2011 at 8:57:13 pm

[Clint Wardlow] "Is FCPX just a "hammer" or a full toolbox? I would really like to know."

It depends on what kind of tools you need to get your job done. So the answer to both of those is, yes.

I recently did a ripoff test of layered timelines (I tried to copy someone's FCP7 timeline as I was skeptical that FCPx could even do it, full thread here, it's very long: http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/13325). To absolutely sound like a complete jerk, it took more than 30 minutes at the Apple store to figure out, so give yourself some time to learn the interface if you decide to play around. It is different. You can do multiple layers very easily, and playback is much more smooth and real time than FCP7 will ever be, I don't know if real time playback is conducive to your layering or not:



fcpx_federlinetribute_partial_connections.png

The Motion effects publishing capabilities is a pretty cool and useful feature if you need Motion effects.

A lack of an audio mixer is not good, but the audio mixing is much more useful in X than in 7, as are the real time audio filters.

The lack of baseband video out is a huge bummer, and you will not be able to export to any other platform (save if you use the autoduck plugin) but be aware that you won't be able to get the video timeline out of the program if you need to.

It is certainly not software that is "finished" by any means, but it really depends on what you need. We can't use it in our shop, for example, for every day work.

What video formats do you usually work with?


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David Lawrence
Re: Real World job on FCPX
on Aug 18, 2011 at 9:17:50 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "A lack of an audio mixer is not good, but the audio mixing is much more useful in X than in 7"

Sorry Jeremy, this is just factually incorrect. FCPX is incredibly awkward and constrained for multi-track audio. Things that are absolutely trivial to do in a track-based system are currently impossible or require all sorts of workarounds in FCPX. Realtime filters don't help.

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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Real World job on FCPX
on Aug 18, 2011 at 9:19:42 pm

[David Lawrence] "Sorry Jeremy, this is just factually incorrect."

Whatever you say. I, of course, am always wrong.

I am talking about the pen tool adjusting parameters (you know, mixing).

I have spent more than 30 minutes checking this out.


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Tom Wolsky
Re: Real World job on FCPX
on Aug 18, 2011 at 9:51:08 pm

I don't know why you bother posting here, your'e wrong so often. ;)

All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Coming in 2011 "Final Cut Pro X for iMovie and Final Cut Express Users" from Focal Press


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Rafael Amador
Re: Real World job on FCPX
on Aug 18, 2011 at 10:19:14 pm

Editing without a Preview and Program window?
clever?
innovative?
That's going back to the Stone Age.

[Bill Davis] "After all, this is the original tradition of the first FCP.

It was absolutely not the DigiBeta drivers who were responsible for it's early success, it was all of the upstart DV folks who kept arguing that 25mbps was fine for a lot of practical video tasks."

The 25Mbps refrained me long time from editing in a computer, but the first time I sat in front of FCP 2.5 (after 17 editing with almost everything) I thought that Apple has designed the best NLE ever.
Bugs, shortcomings, tricks and few things to learn about codecs, but no real learning curve.

[Bill Davis] " a time with FCP-X will also be the folks who figure out new ways of doing new things with the new toolset."
The tool set and the way to use it may be different, but you won't do "new things".
There many things to invent on tools, but not is nothing on making movies.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Bill Davis
Re: Real World job on FCPX
on Aug 18, 2011 at 11:28:53 pm

Rafael,

You missed FCP 1.0 to 1.5! Back at version 1, the software didn't even support the AVID standardized JKL "transport" conventions of the day!

2.5 was a LONG way from 1.0 which is precisely why some of us are willing to wait to see what FCP-X will become at something similar to 2.5.

It it comes half the distance that the original FCP came over that early development period - it will likely change the entire game. Or not. Who know?

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Connor


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David Lawrence
Re: Real World job on FCPX
on Aug 18, 2011 at 10:08:53 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "Whatever you say. I, of course, am always wrong."

Not always, just in this case ;)

[Jeremy Garchow] "I am talking about the pen tool adjusting parameters (you know, mixing)."

Mixing is way more than just using the pen tool. I'm talking about working with multiple channels of audio in a flexible, open workspace (you know, mixing). BTW, I think FCPX's pen tool and fade handles are awesome. I wish I could use them.

[Jeremy Garchow] "I have spent more than 30 minutes checking this out."

Same here - about two months in my studio.

I spent 30 minutes at the Apple store because I was curious how Apple thinks a project should be structured. It's interesting and revealing -- especially for audio. A big tell is they resort to the same clumsy workarounds discussed in these forums. The one I found most revealing was the gap clip at the head with one long connected audio clip labeled "final soundtrack". No multichannel mix, just a final which is conveniently brought in as a single clip. Then they add some sound effects connected as needed along the primary. They stage everything so it looks great for a demo. They ignore any real world scenarios that break the model.

I really, truly, cannot imagine any audio engineer wanting to work with the magnetic timeline. Feel free to disagree, but I think the facts are on my side. Every audio/music person I've demoed FCPX to reacts the same way when I ask if it would work for them. They laugh.

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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Real World job on FCPX
on Aug 18, 2011 at 10:17:52 pm

[David Lawrence] "I really, truly, cannot imagine any audio engineer wanting to work with the magnetic timeline. Feel free to disagree,"

I agree.

And none of them will want to work in FCP7's horrendous audio capabilities either.

When comparing FCP7 to X, I would say that X has the useful advantage in terms of actually doing the work, magnetic timeline aside.

Since FCP7 doesn't have busses I still don't see how X is that much different, from a truly practical perspective, when it comes to audio. Since entire tracks can't be adjusted in FCP7, what are you missing in X? I just don't find FCP7's audio capability to be all that flexible. At all. Now Media100? That was/is a highly flexible audio editor.

Jeremy


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Rafael Amador
Re: Real World job on FCPX
on Aug 18, 2011 at 10:23:47 pm

iggest fear is that the magnetic timeline will limit my ability to control these elements to the degree I want. "
I do this kind of work too. My gut is that if this is what you need, you'll find the magnetic timeline unusable. It really favors simple, linear assembly and doesn't offer the flexibility you get with tracks for the kind of layered, non-linear projects you describe."

Even not working multi-layers, layers are fundamental.
My sequence layers are my "Finder" when I work in FCP. I put in any upper layer everything I want to have at hand.
I want my gaps back too. As my story has holes and I need to see them at first sight and in their real magnitude.
The holes is where the work to do remains. Where I have to concentrate my attention.
Don't ask me making mental 3D exercises to figure out how my "time-line" would look in a "logic" (human) NLE (or graphic application (Apple should try magnetic time-line on Motion).
I want to be able to have many sequences and projects open at the same time.
I want a full customizable project in terms of settings.
....

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Steve Connor
Re: Real World job on FCPX
on Aug 18, 2011 at 10:46:58 pm

Then FCPX is not for you, move on :)

Steve Connor
Adrenalin Television

Have you tried "Search Posts"? Enlightenment may be there.


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Rafael Amador
Re: Real World job on FCPX
on Aug 19, 2011 at 1:35:25 am

[Steve Connor] "Then FCPX is not for you, move on :)"
I have good reasons to give Apple a second chance, but sure I'll do it if they don't give me what I want.
Anyway is not my self but Apple who has to move on (and fast).
I still can make videos; FCPX users don't.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Andy Neil
Re: Real World job on FCPX
on Aug 19, 2011 at 11:45:31 pm

[Rafael Amador] "Even not working multi-layers, layers are fundamental."

Layers exist in FCP X. Just not tracks.

[Rafael Amador] "My sequence layers are my "Finder" when I work in FCP. I put in any upper layer everything I want to have at hand."

This is an example of how we often do not want to re-evaluate the way we work because it's the way we've always worked. Personally, I find this method of throwing junk on upper layers to be extremely silly, but whatever, it's the way you work. Sure you can't edit in this exact same fashion in FCP X, but they did actually provide a means for another "popular" junk method. Many editors throw shots that they may use at the end of their sequences past any edited work. FCP X has the Append Clip shortcut (E) which will throw your junk shots at the end so you can grab them later. Same basic workflow, just at the end of the timeline, rather than above it.

[Rafael Amador] "I want my gaps back too. As my story has holes and I need to see them at first sight and in their real magnitude."

Gaps exist in FCP X. Use the position tool (P) to create them. It's just a reversal of the default in FCP 7 where you have to delete unwanted gaps. In this case you have to create "wanted" gaps. My only peeve is that I wish they'd have a gap clip in the generators tab similar to the Slug clip in FCP 7. However, now, it's actually quite similar to the Avid "filler" paradigm.

[Rafael Amador] "I want to be able to have many sequences and projects open at the same time."

The sequences are easily and readily available for switching back and forth. True, you can't have two sequence windows torn off and showing on screen at the same time, but if you're copying from one sequence into another, or comparing one version to another, it works fine for that.

[Rafael Amador] "I want a full customizable project in terms of settings."

Well, we agree on that at least. I certainly want more control over the working environment and how things are displayed. For example, why can't I have big track icons without the filmstrip. Heck, I'd even settle for a single thumbnail over the filmstrip look. However, there is quite a bit you can change in the interface that people assume you can't. Not enough for my taste, but for now it's workable.

Andy

http://www.timesavertutorials.com


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David Lawrence
Re: Real World job on FCPX
on Aug 18, 2011 at 11:40:24 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "And none of them will want to work in FCP7's horrendous audio capabilities either."

Minor annoyances aside, I think you'd be surprised how productive FCP7 is for audio. I can do 80-90% of a complex mix right in the timeline. OMF out if I'm working with my sound guys or round trip thru Soundtrack Pro if it's just me. Or if time's tight, I'll often just stay right in FCP. Could it be better? Sure. Horrendous? I don't think so.

[Jeremy Garchow] "Since FCP7 doesn't have busses I still don't see how X is that much different, from a truly practical perspective, when it comes to audio."

Well for one thing, you don't have to deal with only one "track" that's locked in ripple mode. That and the connected clip concept get the biggest laughs.

The metaphor of the open timeline functioning as a musical score especially applies when working in audio. Tracks are a natural way to organize channels of sound and ripple is the last thing you want as the default.

I really don't think Apple's thought thru sound with their new UI. I'm curious how they'll solve multichannel mixing with only one track.

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Chris Harlan
Re: Real World job on FCPX
on Aug 19, 2011 at 12:38:45 am

[David Lawrence] "[Jeremy Garchow] "And none of them will want to work in FCP7's horrendous audio capabilities either."

Minor annoyances aside, I think you'd be surprised how productive FCP7 is for audio. I can do 80-90% of a complex mix right in the timeline. OMF out if I'm working with my sound guys or round trip thru Soundtrack Pro if it's just me. Or if time's tight, I'll often just stay right in FCP. Could it be better? Sure. Horrendous? I don't think so.

[Jeremy Garchow] "Since FCP7 doesn't have busses I still don't see how X is that much different, from a truly practical perspective, when it comes to audio."

Well for one thing, you don't have to deal with only one "track" that's locked in ripple mode. That and the connected clip concept get the biggest laughs."


I've been mixing and finishing Network Broadcast material FOR YEARS on FCP. Is it the only way I do it? No. Do I sweeten in Logic or SoundTrack Pro? Often. But I HAVE mixed countless national and international spots for film, broadcast, and cable television with FCS. I have never had a piece rejected for either unsatisfactory mix or technical standards issues. I find its interactivity with control surfaces to be adequately responsive, and its relationship with Sound Track Pro to be very usable. To call it "horrendous" seems more than a tad ridiculous. To say that FCP X has better mixing capabilities is absurdly ridiculous.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Real World job on FCPX
on Aug 19, 2011 at 2:06:24 am

[Chris Harlan] "I have never had a piece rejected for either unsatisfactory mix or technical standards issues."

Me neither. The controls are garbage the pink on green is also garbage. Bouncing to STP doesn't count, I am talking strictly FCP control.

There's no submix, there's one bus and you can't even keyframe control the master bus, beyond those pie in the sky additions,

The simple fade and nodes in X work much better than 7, as do the real time logic filters. The FCP7 filters are ridiculously not real time, and the interface is from last century. Audio is like the easiest thing to effect, especially with today's super computers. FCP sucks here.

Audio has never been a strong suit of FCP, that's my opinion. My 1997 copy if m100 was way better in most regards.

FCPx is a step in the right direction in terms of filters and control, as was STP, but that wasn't quite there either. There will probably not be a master bus in FCPx unless it's controlled by metadata, or a virtual patch panel. you can also secondary or compound clips and effect them all as one. Or not.

I am not sure that FCPx will be our ultimate choice, and for now it's a learning process, but the potential is there. I know that everyone here does not feel that way.


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Clint Wardlow
Re: Real World job on FCPX
on Aug 19, 2011 at 12:29:16 am

Yikes, I was wrong about the FCPX hubbub dying down. Still a lot of anger here.

Jeremy Garchow "What video formats do you usually work with?"

This where Apple and I differ. I love using old technology. I shoot with VHS, Betacam, MiniDV, HDV, Super 8, and rarely 16mm...whatever I can use to get an effect I am looking for. I just purchased a modified Pixelvision video camera (and also got a real deal on a Beaulieu 4008 super8 camera that came with, of all things, an old Super8 Sound full-coat audio recorder!) Obviously I transfer the old analog formats to miniDV using my Sony HDR-FX1 as the deck. Super8 is a more expensive proposition, but I use the pricy services of Super8 Sound to transfer it directly into a prores 422 format.

Currently, most of my digital video is shot in HDV or miniDV, though I am looking to add either the Panasonic AF100 or maybe the cheaper DSLR Canon7D to my arsenal.

I'm not sure if this would be a problem in FCPX as I tend to transcode everything to prores422 (though miniDV and HDV are natively supported in FCP7, prores just plays nicer if you want to do any effects.)

I guess the only real way I am gonna find out if FCPX will work for me, is to try it out at either the Apple Store or find someone who has it. I am nervous which way to go with my NLE future because, unlike many of the other traditional professionals on this site, I don't have unlimited cash for investment. A bad choice will really sting.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Real World job on FCPX
on Aug 19, 2011 at 12:10:35 am

[David Lawrence] "[Clint Wardlow] " do a lot of projections and non-linear narrative (along with more traditional stuff). However, I currently use tracks extensively to layer audio & video and my biggest fear is that the magnetic timeline will limit my ability to control these elements to the degree I want. "

I do this kind of work too. My gut is that if this is what you need, you'll find the magnetic timeline unusable. It really favors simple, linear assembly and doesn't offer the flexibility you get with tracks for the kind of layered, non-linear projects you describe. If you need multi-track audio mixing, you'll hit a wall immediately. There's a reason that you don't see any audio mix screen shots in any of Apple's FCPX marketing material."



I second this. I do a lot of audio layering on any particular spot. I also work with a lot of rhythmic and textural events that I build in Omnisphere--pads, glides, and things there are no names for--and I blend sfx with musical elements. I rely very heavily on the ability to place elements in time. For me, timing is an extremely important element. Frankly, I don't think I knew HOW important it was until I started examining FCP X.

And I like to work free-form. Sometimes, I might even want to start with music cues or sound effects. Let's say I'm doing a promo for a mystery/noir/cop flick, and I've been haunted by a sound I came up with in Omnisphere. I might want to place three instances of that haunting sound in exact places in the timeline, and then build everything from there. Not an everyday event, buts it has happened and has been fruitful. That's what I loved about FCP. Very freeform. It was a table that you placed things on, however you wanted to place them. Eventually, everything fills up, and the only important relationships between clips is that A) one thing follows another, and that one thing in some way obscures another.

You should try FCP X to get a feel, but my guess from you description is that it will not be to your taste.


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Mark Morache
Re: Real World job on FCPX
on Aug 21, 2011 at 4:09:14 am

Craig... did I miss the link, or did you NOT share your video?

---------
I'm calling it FCX. They took the "pro" out, so I will too.
I'll reconsider after the first upgrade.

Mark Morache
Avid/Xpri/FCP7/FCX
Evening Magazine,Seattle, WA
blogging at http://fcpx.wordpress.com


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