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Larry Watts
Ask yourself this question
on Jul 29, 2011 at 6:47:35 pm

Since the 80's I've seen a lot of software companies and software products come and go. I've had great software bought by bigger companies and lost a lot of time and money when that happened because the software I loved was "incorporated" into their own lousy product. (It was gone as far as I was concerned.)

Ask yourself "Why would Apple who worked very hard to have editors from High School to Hollywood destroy such an accomplishment"?

Certainly they have a reputation for making revolutionary intuitive products.

They could have played it safe and made FCP 8 with some incremental features and pleased most everybody. But they didn't, they took a risk to make editing speed and efficiency their primary focus which will make us more money by getting more work done.

Second point. Follow the money. I'm a little suspicious about where a lot of bashing is coming from. There is a huge incentive for "some" to get out the negative publicity train to regain market share. I've seen one of those companies in the past stoop very low and threaten dealers who tried to carry a competing editor with loosing their dealerships.

So I say, give Apple some slack. They aren't taking FCP away from us.

I think they did a poor job of a new product rollout, though.

A lot of this angst is about personality types. For some the glass is always half empty. For others it is half full.

I'm of the opinion that FCPX is going to become a ground breaking innovative editor that others are going to have to copy to stay competitive. I think Apple will find a way to make all editors very happy by adding the many features pro editors want. They will probably make us have to stop our old tired bad habits and see editing in new ways.

Most people don't like change. I've seen very young editors gripe about change like old stodgy men. It's a mindset.

I don't work for Apple. I don't own Apple stock. I won't earn a penny for saying positive things about the company. I am very tired of monstrous companies who destroy my productivity because their business model is to gobble up the competition. Once done, development is on the slow track and we hear over and over about "the next release".

So let's wait and see what Apple has in store, and follow the money trail and see if I'm right or wrong.



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Zaje Balo
Re: Ask yourself this question
on Jul 29, 2011 at 7:50:51 pm

They will probably make us have to stop our old tired bad habits and see editing in new ways.

Can you name at least 3 old, bad habits I and all other editors have? Setting In/Out marks and believing they are staying permanently with clip untill we delete them? Is that a bad and unneded habit? Easy crrossfade between 2 audios without need to dance woodoo dances with compound, secondary, connected or whatever new paradigming naming BS? I don't want new way of editing, I just want to do my job and this is not product for me. I have 20 years of experience in editing and I know what to expect from professional editing SW, I don't see needed functionality and I don't think it there will be added in this product.

btw. I would like to see how FCPx will perform in one year of extensive editing: startup times, lags, etc. I wouldnt be suprised that after some time there will be some suprises.

kr
ZJ


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John Christie
Re: Ask yourself this question
on Jul 29, 2011 at 7:57:32 pm

[Larry Watts] "So I say, give Apple some slack. They aren't taking FCP away from us. "

Hi Larry

But the point is they DID take FCP away from us. FCP X is in no way a replacement for all the features that were in FCP Studio. Every previous version was an improvement on the past version. And upward compatibility was always guaranteed. It may someday gain back what it's missing, but for now, our facility and our 20+ seats of FCP7 will not consider moving to FCP X.

Cheers

John


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Chris Jacek
Re: Ask yourself this question
on Jul 29, 2011 at 8:11:20 pm

Ironically, Apple is doing exactly what you have accused the "big corporations" of doing. They have taken away a software platform that we loved, and incorporated it into their own crappy product. It just so happens that both products are in the same company.

Final Cut Pro X, is Final Cut Pro in name only. You can argue that someday it may be a great revolutionary product that we'll all love. We can only wait and see. But right now, it is not adequate. So basically, this is the exact kind of corporate takeover that you claim to hate so much. It's somehow worse, because it's like they are destroying their own family. I'd better stop the analogy now, before I start it with many Godfather quotes.

Professor, Producer, Editor
and former Apple Employee


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Christopher Gildenstern
Re: Ask yourself this question
on Jul 30, 2011 at 7:56:26 pm

This has probably been mentioned before, but it might be worth 60 seconds to hop on YouTube and rewatch Apple's "1984" Super Bowl ad. In many ways, Apple (a company whose consumer products, by and large, I still enjoy) has become the IBM they warned us about.

Christopher Gildenstern
Creative/Production Director
Barnes Chase & Davis, Inc.
Advertising, Marketing, New Media

(This space for rent)


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Robert Brown
Re: Ask yourself this question
on Jul 30, 2011 at 9:27:38 pm

Exactly. I still like and use many of their products but with FCPX they really sent a message to many of us who helped them in some small way with their success. I for one was one of, if not the first guy to use FCP at a World Series with my own system and Aja had to loan me a special Kona "1.5" to do it. And by doing that and by bringing my system into the building for another project, I played a big part in bringing FCP into Fox Sports as I introduced it to the producers and other editors there. And now it's the main system used in my department with about 7 seats.

But now in return Apple has sent a clear message: "we don't care". To me that's just bad karma but I guess I really don't care either as I'm liking the other products out there. But it's hard to ignore the "one finger salute" as W used to call it.



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TImothy Auld
Re: Ask yourself this question
on Jul 31, 2011 at 12:27:30 am

It most certainly seems that this is what Apple currently aspires to be.

It is my opinion (and I really want to stress that fact - it is my opinion) that any corporation that rises to the heights that Apple currently occupies does not exist to serve its customers. It exists to serve itself - and by that I mean it exists to make as much money as it possibly can for itself and its shareholders. They don't care about me, they don't care about you. They care about selling a lot of stuff. That is why they (and just about every other corporation) are here. Anyone who thinks that any corporation this big has a heart or any sense of loyalty whatever is, I think, kidding themselves.

bigpine


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David Cherniack
Re: Ask yourself this question
on Jul 31, 2011 at 3:41:32 pm

This is true of all corporations and the behaviour of the particular corporate entity in the marketplace is determined by where they perceive they can maximize profits, given their expertise. Thus the initial release of FCP-X is directed at what Apple perceives as a broader audience than the higher end.

It remains to be seen whether X will perform the way they've intended. It certainly isn't for the casual consumer...rather, in it's initial release, it seems to be directed at event video making - corporate, weddings, seminars, churches etc. But most of those people are already using other software and have developed the infrastructure around it. Is there enough advantage in X for them to switch? I don't know, but given that the vast majority of the distribution in that sector is on dics I would wonder.

Then there's the question whether X will ever be suitable for the higher end of the industry without the addition features that it apparently isn't designed for: the track based metaphor and baseband video I/O.

So at this time the real question, in my mind anyway, is whether, given its disastrous reception in the higher end and its questionable adoption by its intended market, it will follow other new-product disasters like the Edsel and New Coke into oblivion...a thought possibly impossible to its supporters here, but I'd bet if one looked up the history of the Edsel and New Coke you'd find they both had loud vocal adherents who were certain the product was a new paradigm for the future.

Time will tell.

David
AllinOneFilms.com


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Chris Harlan
Re: Ask yourself this question
on Jul 31, 2011 at 10:04:55 pm

You moaners! This is the first release of the Edsel. Sure, Ford has made cars before, but this is something new. And Ford is serious about it. Do you really think that Ford would name a car after one of the founder's kids if they weren't going to support it for years to come?!


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Ask yourself this question
on Jul 29, 2011 at 8:15:00 pm

[Larry Watts] "Ask yourself "Why would Apple who worked very hard to have editors from High School to Hollywood destroy such an accomplishment"? "

Larry,

If the people at Apple were talking, people wouldn't be asking such questions.

[Larry Watts] "Second point. Follow the money. I'm a little suspicious about where a lot of bashing is coming from. There is a huge incentive for "some" to get out the negative publicity train to regain market share. I've seen one of those companies in the past stoop very low and threaten dealers who tried to carry a competing editor with loosing their dealerships."

You can't blame Avid and Adobe for the fact that Apple has created software that half the editing world simply hates. Sure Avid and Adobe have begun seriously courting FCP users, but why not, they didn't create the situation that drove flocks of FCP users away - that was all Apple.

[Larry Watts] "A lot of this angst is about personality types. For some the glass is always half empty. For others it is half full.
"


That's pure BS, and a put down anyone who dares to disagree or to admit their not smitten with X.

Again, FCP X is a non-traditional NLE, that forces editors to work in non-traditional ways - people who don't like it are just as valid in their beliefs as people who love it.

[Larry Watts] "I'm of the opinion that FCPX is going to become a ground breaking innovative editor that others are going to have to copy to stay competitive. I think Apple will find a way to make all editors very happy by adding the many features pro editors want. They will probably make us have to stop our old tired bad habits and see editing in new ways."

This is nothing new. Others have been defending the product since June 21st, suggesting that some day it's really gonna be great.

You're admitting here that FCP X isn't quite right, yet throughout the entirety of your post you act shocked that others might question it.


[Larry Watts] "I am very tired of monstrous companies who destroy my productivity because their business model is to gobble up the competition. Once done, development is on the slow track and we hear over and over about "the next release"."

How does this differ from the current situation with FCP X?

There's been no evidence at all of fast track development. In fact, we know for fact that what was shown to the lucky advanced viewers in February, was the same product released on June 21st. And now, it's the end of July, and all we're hearing about is future releases and future 3rd party support for missing features. The only difference is, in this case Apple gobbled-up it's own rather than the competition.


David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new tutorial: Prepare for a seamless transition to FCP X and OS X Lion
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/FCP-10-MAC-Lion/1

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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Larry Watts
Re: Ask yourself this question
on Jul 29, 2011 at 10:09:17 pm

I guess I better jump in and make just a few comments and then I'm done since I don't want people to waste their time over me.

The only point I was really trying to make is that let's take a wait and see approach, give Apple the benefit of the doubt, and maybe there is more than what seems to be at first blush.

(I've read a few others make comments that everyone is up in arms when they haven't had time to really test the product. I haven't tried it yet.)

Apple made a huge mistake not getting into color graphics cards years ago and lost big time. The lost the education market, also.

But they have brought more innovation to the table than most companies, so I want them to succeed in this.

There is one very good thing about all the anger and upset, is that it will put some fire under them! And I agree, they should not forget the professional market. I agree that would be a HUGE mistake!

One final thing. I want the next generation of kids to have great tools. I like the fact that they can afford software and get started young. I'm all for competition. I want the tools to get out of the way and make creation easier. Apple has done that very well, and I hope they succeed with FCP X.
Over and out



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Steven Gonzales
Re: Ask yourself this question
on Jul 29, 2011 at 10:30:49 pm

Apple doesn't want the graphics card market because it's too risky, they don't want the education market because it can't pay their margins, and they don't want the professional video market because it's not big enough.



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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Ask yourself this question
on Jul 29, 2011 at 10:31:48 pm

[Larry Watts] "Follow the money. I'm a little suspicious about where a lot of bashing is coming from. "

thats ludicrous. the level of industry steam coming off this release could fire a locomotive.


[Larry Watts] "give Apple some slack. They aren't taking FCP away from us. "

they. just. did. Phillip Hodgetts, Larry Jordan and Michael Wohl have all agreed this should have been called a new product, in conjunction with continued legacy support for the existing software. Apple did neither of those things. On a basic level, that's a really bad sign. Craig Seeman has argued pretty strongly that there should have been full transitional support ala OSX - OS9. That apple chose to bring the knife down on the neck of FCS3 is crazily unnerving behaviour for any editor heavily invested in that software. Its near complete madness.
Personally speaking? I think Apple have gone wrong. They've got more money than the US Treasury, and I think the idea that they can even conceive of realistically serving editing professionals is picket fence wishful thinking. Apple is gone very big, and very weird. If we're a cult of Apple, what's happening in cult HQ?

They're bigger than scientology for God's sake. They're nearly bigger than US oil. And they believe they are a.. mission.. based technology company meant to redifine the commingling of technology and the arts. taking all this altogether - is that really the ideal sane model of a good editing software provider?

[Larry Watts] "I think Apple will find a way to make all editors very happy by adding the many features pro editors want. "

I'm not sure what the direct acronym opposite of FUD is - but this is it.
It's definitely bending the knee to the sixty foot high, completely silent, egyptian hieroglyph laden, apple logo statue.

[Larry Watts] "They will probably make us have to stop our old tired bad habits and see editing in new ways."

Ah. so this really actually is 1984.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Carlo Dorsi
Re: Ask yourself this question
on Jul 30, 2011 at 2:16:22 am

Hi Larry
I am sorry but I don't know what to make of your goodwill crusade for Apple. I am puzzled by the sheer lack of interest that this company shows towards their customers. Computers are not only about flamboyant new changes every other week. FCP is a tool for work for tens of thousands of people. This means there are hundred of thousands of people depending on this tool for their maintenance. I am talking about their families, the employees of the companies that have trusted this tool for their businesses, those who earn their living being in or selling the products made with FCP and so on. It is not about not accepting the new, being hard-headed or lazy for new changes. Besides, I wonder what a worker would say if the company making his shovel of choice all of a certain would come up and say: "We announce the revolution in shovels! We are changing our product into a better, more efficient, easier to handle and lighter to hold. It will take half the time to dig a pitch with a quarter of the effort!". The worker would go mad with expectation. Than it turns out the new shovel is made of plastic, has a shorter handle and you can at best use it to fill up a couple of small buckets with sand. And they won't sell real shovels anymore. Got my point? I am not willing to beg them pardon for their irresponsible mistakes. We who earn our living working with the FCP suite of applications are very concerned indeed. I have invested a considerable amount of money on this company's products, let alone the learning efforts to master it, and I am NOT at all happy with their behavior. Not at all.


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Nelson Torres
Re: Ask yourself this question
on Jul 30, 2011 at 7:18:32 am

So to keep their customers happy, come out with FCP 8(64 bit) & 9 while they continue to develop FCP X(They got more money than the US). When FCP X is ready then release. It would have been a lot more successful.


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alban egger
Re: Ask yourself this question
on Jul 30, 2011 at 11:03:50 am

Some of the product is wrong, but it has way more upsides than downsides and it is already better than FCP7 in many ways.But it is not a complete NLE yet.

The rollout was definitely wrong. And to EOL FCP7 in such a harsh manner tells you how Apple is a business and not a welfare company for editors; they seem certain their new product is good, so why support the old one. They won´t abandon FCPX because they need it in the future so the iPhone generation can stay in their Apple-cosmos.

In the perspective of a customer this is good deal: you get a great NLE for 299; who needs all these OMFs, XML and tape-broadcastoutput? just a few of us. Even here in this forum not everyone needs it, and we are in general maybe the more qualified users. But FCPX will be sold in millions.

So, if I need OMF - buy it extra; but maybe I don´t need tapeoutput, so I don´t need to pay for that. In fact I like that idea (well, right now we can´t buy any of it, but we will )

This modular (App-Store modular of course) scheme for FCPX will be a unique selling point. Mind you how many people are just now coming into the market. They won´t buy AVID or ADOBE even at their discount prices because they are still double or triple the price and you STILL HAVE TO BUY a AJA card. So why not buy FCPX for 299 and then buy the AJA card.

We, who have been in this for years or like me decades, can either drop it or see what´s happening and then decide. And that´s what Apple is betting on. Any sane businessperson will wait, because FCP7 still works, it didn´t stop working suddenly, it´s still on my drive and still running. This "war" is not won in a few weeks, Apple knows that and they will come back after the initial feedback and they are probably hammered with automatic crash reports, heck I have sent dozens, and they will fix it and they might listen to a few complaints and they will make a lot of money with a product that will be the standard for a big part of the industry.



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David Roth Weiss
Re: Ask yourself this question
on Jul 30, 2011 at 4:29:00 pm

[alban egger] "Some of the product is wrong, but it has way more upsides than downsides and it is already better than FCP7 in many ways."

Alban,

To me, FCP X appears to have dumbed-down a lot more than just the software. Since June 21st it's been open season on the truth.

Like most of those who've been repeating what you've said above since June 21st, you state the "FCP X mantra" as though it's fact rather than simply your opinion. It surprises me just how many FCP users on this forum are oblivious to the difference between the two, stating their own opinions and true facts interchangeably.

The fact of the matter is, many very experienced editors believe FCP X has more downsides than it has upsides. And, while you believe "it's better than FCP7 in many ways," you'll not have an easy time defending that opinion in a room full of experienced FCP editors. Had you substituted the word "some" or "a few" for "many," you'd have made your defense a whole lot easier.

So, now that we have that out of the way, will you please list all of the "many ways" you think FCP X is better than FCP 7?


David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

Don't miss my new tutorial: Prepare for a seamless transition to FCP X and OS X Lion
http://library.creativecow.net/weiss_roth_david/FCP-10-MAC-Lion/1

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums.


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alban egger
Re: Ask yourself this question
on Aug 1, 2011 at 1:30:18 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "So, now that we have that out of the way, will you please list all of the "many ways" you think FCP X is better than FCP 7?"

Gladly.....
- Media Management and the whole keyword-structure...don´t think I need to explain why that is better than the old FCP bin where I never knew where I was and when I looked for something needed a loupe for it; now just type a keyword;and in fact it looks like bins still
- smart collections are on top of all that without subclipping (e.g. best/crane/evening/talentB/crowdnoise)
- Skimming: Open your Event and skim through hours in minutes; no more double clicking dozens of clips to see what´s in them and it allows you to be a little careless with your keywords if need be;

editing: I list a few simple tools that make life easier for me
- again skimming: no more aiming for the timebar; move your mouse to where you want to start, hit SPACE or some other key....done; BTW you can turn it off and use JKL...surprise
- primary storyline (full ripple-mode): I often get back to my edits to tighten them. This time I don´t need to watch for collisions and lost sync on various tracks. Maybe again I can edit a little more careless, but why is that bad? If I need more "freedom", use the P tool to position clips down the line
- Trim-Start / Trim-End / Trim to Selection: these save hours every week and I missed them since I saw them on Edius.
- the new replace commands are a faster way of the 3-point edit. Select the clip (one click instead of click in, set I, click out set O; but you can still do that and then you can still insert, overwrite the selection or set a connected clip above)
- this time round nesting works: compound clips and especially the secondary storyline help arranging sidetracks of the story and stay connected to the exact moment in the primary storyline where you want them no matter what you do; if I need them in certain tracks I need to be innovativ, that´s true, but I can manage that because you can move compound clips up and down; say you have graphics for different languages....compound them; stack them and toggle them on / off
- timeline index: longtime missing in FCP
- audition; although I didn´t use it much yet, when I did it was a solid help
- Titles/Effects from Motion: some of you pure editors don´t need this if you have graphics departments, but for smaller houses this new motion-to-FCPX plug is very practical. And trust me your graphics artists will surprise you when they publish new graphics into your project without you noticing it ;-)

I could go on, but I need to work on. These are just a few tools that make me edit faster. I understand if you have an assistant editor who logs everything perfectly and puts it into bins then the media is there for you, but if you edit from scratch like many of us (and yes we still feel we are pros) the mediatools are a huge improvement.

Editing is just faster; you just don´t have to think about what-might-be-down-the-timeline that much. But that´s my experience and you are be right: I should clearly state all this as my opinion and not as a fact.

And you are all right about the missing features to work in groups (edit/audio/grading). They have to soon offer ways to export timelines for other programmes and co-workers on them.

edit: ONE HUGE factor why it is better than FCP7 that just jumped into my mind when I left the post: on many operations FCPX keeps playing! It doesn´t stop for every trim or audio-levelshift...it plays.and it plays in the background while you maybe adjust a motion effct or work in Photoshop or read the Cow


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Rafael Amador
Re: Ask yourself this question
on Jul 30, 2011 at 1:39:26 pm

FCPX is the less intuitive, customizable and transparent NLE nobody could ever write.

[Larry Watts] "Second point. Follow the money. I'm a little suspicious about where a lot of bashing is coming from."
The bashing comes from long experienced professional video editors.
What I really would like to know is how many licenses has Apple really sold.
No massive download of free plugins in the COW.
I really would like to know who is feeding FCPX. Who is trying to keep alive this "experiment."

[Larry Watts] "So let's wait and see what Apple "
No thanks. I've been waiting since FC.6.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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