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Where are we TODAY?

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Rick Fromet
Where are we TODAY?
on Jul 27, 2011 at 8:53:41 pm

So, here's our situation we're in, in the real world, as of today...

We are in the process of hiring 2 new editors, and need to buy them software / laptops. We are a FCP house with 9 FCPS licenses. So you see our dilema...

I've read A LOT on here about how FCPX has potential, "will be" great, etc., etc. Truth is, I can't make my living on if-comes nor is it wise to invest capital on a program that is version 1 (of a program that should be version 8), and is completely quirky and buggy, which seems to be missing fundamental editing features. We can't upgrade our new editors to FCPX as it is, buy FCPS licenses, or even make the 2 different softwares communicate (can't open projects, can't OMF, etc.) Avid may be our ONLY viable option...

We've been testing FCPX here for almost a month now and have come to one conclusion (all 9 editors / producers). RIGHT NOW - it's a complete and utter useless mess. Yes, it has some potential, yes, we see some usefulness in some of the features (auditioning, keywording, etc.). But for right now - it's a DOG.

It crashes (yes, we've been running it on Lion for a week), it glitches, stutters - and is missing the basic functionality to make it useable (tape layoff and injest, broadcast monitor support, REAL resolution independence). It's not nearly as precise as FCPS, the multiple sequence vs. projects is completely ridiculous, the media handling is a step back, no bins (or at least a way to better organize media)...I could go on and on and on...

In fact, we polled ALL 9 of our editors / producers - and to a person - NO ONE could name even 1 thing that FCPX does better, faster or more efficiently than FCPS (or Avid for that matter). It's all just work arounds and "I bet they'll fix thats". And yes - we had everyone cut a project on it so they could honestly evaluate it). Seriously - we find ourselves trying to figure out how to make basic things work (basic things like shadows, dissolves (yes I know you have to make it a storyline first - but WHY?, audio dissolves), and haven't found one thing that we can honestly say "I wish FCPS worked that way"...

I have a question for all of you who absolutely LOVE FCPX - have you edited on FCPS (or any NLE) before (NOT iMovie)? That's not meant to be a demeaning question, I just want to honestly know. And if so - what does FCPX do better (honest answers only please - and NO references to future what ifs - they're just that - what ifs).

It seems to me that the more I read on people loving FCPX because it can "finally do" this and that - the more I say to myself "FCPS has always done that - it may just not have FORCED you to do it".

Seriously - am I missing something here? I will give FCPX another look maybe in V.2 or 3 or something - but RIGHT NOW TODAY - it's really just a joke of an editor.

FCP 1.0 - FCPS


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Where are we TODAY?
on Jul 27, 2011 at 9:16:43 pm

craig seeman and chris kenny in..

5.. 4.. 3.. 2.. 1..


ah just kidding.

mate boris posted using it in anger on short turnaround a while back - the sudden failure of autosave, heralded, as he described, by a beeping noise when you press command z, actually shocked me personally, in my admittedly limited playing around, I haven't encountered that.
an architectural instability of that order, in published software with no trial is kind of mindboggling - and he's not the only one saying it. Other people have reported save instability - the autosave mechanism, not dealing out prior dated project versions to the finder, is a black box, and an unstable one.
I'm not sure if versioning can step in - has it yet in Lion?

Craig Seeman has, if I recall correctly, described this as being closer to alpha than beta software, and I think it was chris harrington who mused somewhere that there may well be *no blood at all* on the carpet in cupertino - they just popped this thing out, and then they were off.

I know - that last statement reeks of FUD - but seriously: does this look to anyone like a well observed, well managed, well de-bugged software release?


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Steve Connor
Re: Where are we TODAY?
on Jul 27, 2011 at 9:52:53 pm

Did you give your editors any training on it before their projects?

Steve Connor
Adrenalin Television

Have you tried "Search Posts"? Enlightenment may be there.


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Tom Wolsky
Re: Where are we TODAY?
on Jul 27, 2011 at 9:36:10 pm

Quick turn around, limited material, slap it together, get it on air from import to output, it'll whup FCP hands down, and I've been using and teaching that since 1999, also Media100, Premiere, and some Avid. For sheer speed this is incredibly quick. You can finish a news cut or a VNR before FCP finishes ingesting. If you need anything aside from speed and simple, straightforward, cut and load, look elsewhere. You can do it here, but the more you want to do the more the others will catch and pass it, in fairly short order.

All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Coming in 2011 "Complete Training for FCPX"
and "Final Cut Pro X for iMovie and Final Cut Express Users" from Focal Press


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Shane Ross
Re: Where are we TODAY?
on Jul 27, 2011 at 10:45:46 pm

[Tom Wolsky] "Quick turn around, limited material, slap it together, get it on air from import to output, it'll whup FCP hands down, "

But you can do that with the latest Premiere Pro CS5.5 too (no transcoding, direct access to media) and Avid MC 5.0 and 5.5 (Direct access via AMA, no transcoding). And those offer broadcast professional tools that FCP X lacks.

OH, FCP X cannot do color bars, nor have timecode start before 1:00:00:00 (say, 58:30:00...so you can add...oh...no color bars...)

Look for FCS 3 on ebay, or Craigslist. And start the transition to something designed for a broadcast workflow.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Tom Wolsky
Re: Where are we TODAY?
on Jul 27, 2011 at 11:05:12 pm

For what it's worth Mark Spencer made a bars generator for it ages ago. Can't speak to Avid and direct ingest, but Premiere is a complete and total dog trying to edit AVCHD. It doesn't rewrap so you're always struggling with it. Playback is simply painful.

FCP doesn't output to tape.

The question was what the application was good at. It can kill Premiere for speed for a news edit. Again I can't speak for Avid, but for what I know of it, for slapping on the wallpaper, I'd be hard pressed for imagining something outpacing FCP.

I haven't used M100 in years so I can't speak to what magic Boris may have breathed into it.

All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Coming in 2011 "Complete Training for FCPX"
and "Final Cut Pro X for iMovie and Final Cut Express Users" from Focal Press


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Shane Ross
Re: Where are we TODAY?
on Jul 27, 2011 at 11:23:58 pm

AVCHD... That specific format. Yeah, Avid doesn't deal with that natively. So if you are dealing with AVCHD (which seems to be gaining popularity), you still have to import into Avid MC. Premiere, well, I have played with that format using PPro 5.5, and I do have a GFX card that enables CUDA, and it does run 64 bit, and it plays this stuff natively decently. On short projects. Get into longer ones and it bogs down...but we are talking the "quick turnaround...ingest the footage fast and turn the edit around in minutes," right? Well, then the projects wouldn't be long...they'd be short.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Jacob Kerns
Re: Where are we TODAY?
on Jul 27, 2011 at 11:51:03 pm

For what it's worth Mark Spencer made a bars generator for it ages ago. Can't speak to Avid and direct ingest, but Premiere is a complete and total dog trying to edit AVCHD. It doesn't rewrap so you're always struggling with it. Playback is simply painful.

Premiere CS5 and CS5.5 Kick the butt out of FCPX with AVCHD period. The only thing I found faster was Eduis 6 but it was easier to edit FCP7 projects in Premiere. FCPX has to render it before its even usable in the edit. Premiere CS5 with a i3 and 8Gb you can get by editing AVCHD (without cuda). With a Dual Xeon or an i7 with Cuda card you don't even notice that your editing AVCHD. Its saved us lots of hours from transcoding.

Tom you might want to check your system(s)for issues.

NIADA
Technical Director


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Tom Wolsky
Re: Where are we TODAY?
on Jul 28, 2011 at 12:27:08 am

"FCPX has to render it before its even usable in the edit."

This is just not so. Completely wrong. You select the clips in the import window. Click import. Close the window. Edit. Period.

I'm using a new i7 MBP at the moment, typical of news editors in the field. Premiere ingests .mts files and they're a pig to work with on this box.

All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Coming in 2011 "Complete Training for FCPX"
and "Final Cut Pro X for iMovie and Final Cut Express Users" from Focal Press


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Kevin Monahan
Re: Where are we TODAY?
on Jul 28, 2011 at 5:55:20 pm

If you are working with a MacBook Pro and cannot use an NVIDIA card, you won't have GPU acceleration in the Mercury Playback Engine to assist with AVCHD playback. You might try lowering the screen resolution to 1/2 or less. It works rather like Unlimited RT in FCP that way.

For field editing AVCHD with a laptop, I actually recommend a PC with a qualified NVIDIA card and 8GB of RAM or more.

Kevin Monahan
Sr. Content and Community Lead
Adobe After Effects
Adobe Premiere Pro
Adobe Systems, Inc.
Follow Me on Twitter!


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Andrew Stone
Re: Where are we TODAY?
on Jul 29, 2011 at 5:00:41 am

Kevin are there any PC laptops that you could mention that are qualified to use with Adobe Premiere CS 5.x?

-Andrew

--
Steadicam & Camera Operator


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Kevin Monahan
Re: Where are we TODAY?
on Jul 29, 2011 at 5:22:50 pm

[Andrew Stone] "Kevin are there any PC laptops that you could mention that are qualified to use with Adobe Premiere CS 5.x?

-Andrew"


Hey Andrew,
Since I'm pretty new to the PC world, I would post that question on our Premiere Pro hardware forum. Those guys love helping users get super fast editing systems.

http://forums.adobe.com/community/premiere/hardware_forum

Qualified NVIDIA cards are here: http://www.adobe.com/products/premiere/tech-specs.html

Kevin Monahan
Sr. Content and Community Lead
Adobe After Effects
Adobe Premiere Pro
Adobe Systems, Inc.
Follow Me on Twitter!


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Dennis Radeke
Re: Where are we TODAY?
on Jul 30, 2011 at 12:11:02 pm

[Andrew Stone] "Kevin are there any PC laptops that you could mention that are qualified to use with Adobe Premiere CS 5.x?"

While we don't qualify systems per se, I assume that what you're talking about is a good laptop that provides GPU hardware acceleration with Mercury Playback Engine. A lot of the field guys have HP 8740 Elitebook laptops. They are pricey but they are dreamy too.

The engineering in the laptop is really excellent (very apple like) but unlike the MacBookPro, it doesn't compromise power for the sake of form factor. Like it or not, you have to obey the laws of physics and Apple chooses to worry about form factor to the detriment of processing power. HP forgoes form factor for power.

Practically speaking, this means that the HP has a limited battery life when doing real work - less than an hour for sure. It also has a big, honking power supply that is uncool. What you do get is a laptop that can take 16GB of RAM and has a Quadro 5000M GPU in it. Connect this laptop to some decent storage and you have a very nice system that gives you true desktop like power.

So, you have to decide what you're really after. Both the MBP and the HP have a lot to offer, but they take different routes to the end result.

Dennis - Adobe


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Andrew Stone
Re: Where are we TODAY?
on Jul 30, 2011 at 3:48:44 pm

Thanks Dennis, thanks Kevin,

That is exactly the kind of machine I will need... one that has ample CUDA power to throw at editing and color correction.

To the multitude of Mac based editors that are planning to move over to PC based workflow, you will want to make note of this laptop. Be prepared though for a bit of sticker shock. When you kit it out, the price will range from the high 4s to about 6 grand, if you spec it out with a Dreamcolor display and the high end NVIDIA offering and that was with an 18% discount. The one I configured the way I wanted was $7222. prior to discount... just so you know.

Dennis, similarly is their a desktop machine that would come down in the same category, as a good starting point for an editing workstation?

-Andrew

--
Steadicam & Camera Operator


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Dennis Radeke
Re: Where are we TODAY?
on Jul 30, 2011 at 11:08:44 pm

[Andrew Stone] "Dennis, similarly is their a desktop machine that would come down in the same category, as a good starting point for an editing workstation?"

Andrew, a desktop is a lot less of a clear proposition because a desktop is more commoditized - meaning that you have a lot of choices when it comes to spending your money on a desktop. Here are a few ideas.

Local VAR - there are almost certainly a regional or local dealer that can build you a system for a reasonable cost. I can recommend some if you want to tell me the area you live. The key is to know their support and how much they know about professional video editing. They are out there and can be a big help to a user.

Big Box - I'm an admitted fan of HP for a lot of reasons. Their tooless case design is clearly superior to the Mac Pro and it's fit and finish is very strong. They also include a 3 year onsite warranty as standard, so figure that when making a purchase. I have both a Z600 and a Z800. Take a look at them. I also like Boxx and Alienware.

Build your own - I think this is potentially the most rewarding if you take the time to understand what you're doing and are into this kind of thing. The advantage is you waste no money and can build a system that perfectly fits what you want to do. Building a CS5.5 box is all about balance - CPU, GPU, RAM are key things you need to consider and you don't want to skimp on any. Building your own box allows you that flexibility. I liken it to building a model - if you're into doing that thing (I do), then this can be a lot of fun.

Final thought for Mac people looking at a PC box - Windows 7 doesn't smell at all...It's quite good as a user of both...

Cheers,
Dennis


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Andrew Stone
Re: Where are we TODAY?
on Jul 31, 2011 at 8:53:10 pm

Thanks again for your input Dennis.

I have built many a PC over the past 15 years with exception of the last 4 when I made a conscious decision to spend more time using creative tools than being singularly obsessed with the underlying technology and trying out every Linux and BSD distribution that is out there. So my preference would be building a PC but I am out of the loop on the Intel i7 processors and the requisite motherboards required. Also being a Final Cut/Apple Color user until 5 weeks ago I was oblivious to the CUDA technology and the NVIDIA offerings in this area.

I've used largely ASUS mobos but I've used some others from other manufacturers.

Generally speaking I don't cheap out on motherboards as, in the scheme of things and considering what they achieve computationally, I think they are a downright bargain. I have poked around a couple of times looking for ones that have incorporated the Thunderbolt (Light Peak) technology that Intel pioneered with Apple but have yet to find any decent ones, other than bolt-on/afterthought ones that utilize a PCI... slot rather than having a direct fat pipeline to the processor. Not sure if that has changed yet. Also looking for a board that will be compatible with Blackmagic Design's Ultrascope and unfortunately they have been extremely lax in keeping up with blessing new motherboards since they released this product a couple of years ago. It seems graphics cards and USB 3 is the big sticking point but not sure if there is a particular USB 3 chip set that is required. Just throwing that out there in case you have run into this.

I know the retired NVIDIA GTX285 is Premiere/CUDA compliant and there are a few others.

Presently I am using a Mac Pro 2.66 quad core machine with an ATI 5770 card. Apparently it can use the 1st gen of the GTX285 but not the second generation one. I'm not looking to turn this into a Windows box. I figure it is time to carve out a new one and building it would be my first option as Apple's decision on FCP requires me to not only get new computers but new software which will easily cost 10 grand in the next year.

-Andrew
--
Steadicam & Camera Operator


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David Cherniack
Re: Where are we TODAY?
on Jul 28, 2011 at 12:34:27 am

[Tom Wolsky] "Premiere is a complete and total dog trying to edit AVCHD. It doesn't rewrap so you're always struggling with it. Playback is simply painful."

Tom, apparently it is on your system. Not on mine or anyone else's I know, but I'm sure it must be true for you if you say so...though it may be wiser to phase your opinions within the subjective mood rather than as a universal generalization which is frankly, not true.

David
AllinOneFilms.com


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Craig Seeman
Re: Where are we TODAY?
on Jul 27, 2011 at 9:55:36 pm

[Rick Fromet] "I have a question for all of you who absolutely LOVE FCPX - have you edited on FCPS (or any NLE) before (NOT iMovie)?"

Started with CMX340 around 1981. First NLE I edited on regularly was CMX600 in late 1980s. Started on Avid in 1989, by 1999 video engineer and Avid trainer at a post facility doing national network TV, 2001 FCP (lots of brief stints on other NLEs before then).

Keyword Collections, Smart Collections, Favorites is far easier to organize then bins ever were.
Skimmer is great for shuttling through clips.
Clip Connections and Storylines make it easy to move layers around.
No clip collisions allow me to assess layers after moving shots.
Timeline trimming generally much better than FCP ever did it.
Motion publishing to FCP allows "controlled" control over parameters when distributing FX.
Previewing FX to decide whether it's what you need.
Auditioning shots for easy comparison of multiple takes.
Retiming with Optical Flow
Handling of H.264 and AVCHD sources while background transcode to ProRes.
Nice scopes.

That's off the top of my head. That doesn't make up for the serious flaws but there's enough there to be usable on some projects . . . and enough missing to make it the wrong choice for others. Certainly there's ways to do most of the above in other NLEs but I find all this faster in FCPX and that's with 10 years on FCP and more than 10 years on Avid Media Composer before it.



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olof ekbergh
Re: Where are we TODAY?
on Jul 27, 2011 at 10:32:21 pm

M100 is the easiest to learn and fastest NLE around. And it supports XML and EDL's.

It is $595 currently, I think. And there is a free 14 day trial.

I still think FCPX will be a great tool in while but for now M100 rules.

Olof Ekbergh


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Where are we TODAY?
on Jul 27, 2011 at 11:25:25 pm

[Craig Seeman] "keywords, smart collections, Favorites is far easier to organize then bins ever were."

hello...said the troll.. but seriously - really? why? I genuinely, fundamentally disagree with this point. In my bones. My ability to make clip bins as infinite clip container objects to fling things in is a little intrinsic to the old basic mental edit process, I feel.

the things you describe are a great way to organise things because they are screaming at you, every second you use the software, to organise things. It's genuinely irritating. it's like the software is roaring at you to categorise from the first instant and from then on continuously - I am, on occasion, deliberately messy - bin descriptions can become highly esoteric for me - they can be - "the very last graphics" - I need to be able to do that - I need to be able to make sloppy conceptual buckets - I like to be able to think that way - and by god an assigned keyword is not the same mental construct as a bucket. Buckets are made casually, and intermittently, then, careful thought can go into what is to go in, maybe question just how loose you're running things under pressure.

The point about it is, as I reach the critical picture lock, I will clean up those buckets - I enjoy that period of the edit - re-rationalising my thought structure and moving all the stuff around between the disinterested bin containers, It's like a lovely period of scratching as I consolidate the contents of, and delete the temporary bins I had constructed to cover the very hectic periods of the edit.

But dealing with keywords neither feels or acts anything like this - it is.. germanic in its outlook and operation - I am sometimes germanic in my editing process, but sometimes I need not to be. that is where the malleable absolute nature of a bucket comes in. Buckets are important. Much like malleable absolute timelines - they are not interested in my specific approach because they are sufficiently powerful and utterly objective in their nature to encompass any given approach from any given infinite number of practitioners.

but of course now apple have broken that wall between clip container and object, everything is glued to the other thing - I have no room or space, nothing is in a bin, everything has multiple magnetic word decals applied to it. All bloody metadata, all the bloody time. I can have enough bloody metadata.
It's not the ark of the shagging covenant.


[Craig Seeman] "Nice scopes."

absolutely no argument. some of the quality in this software is heartbreaking.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Craig Seeman
Re: Where are we TODAY?
on Jul 28, 2011 at 12:46:20 am

Sorry that you're so slow with keywords. I can grab bunches of clips and organize them very quickly into collection. Keyword one (about as easy as making a bin) and drag a bunch in, and so on. It clips need to be in more than one place it's easy to do. I can go through an interview and favorite all the good bites. I can look at the favorites and various collections as subclips and I can go right back the main longer clip and still see how it was keyworded and favorited. This is just way faster and more flexible and this is with 10 plus years on FCP legacy and Avid.



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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Where are we TODAY?
on Jul 28, 2011 at 1:44:24 am

[Craig Seeman] "If clips need to be in more than one place it's easy to do."

no.

I think that's fundamentally wrong too. Clips have a physicality, to be altered fairly sparingly - where i choose to place them, the bins I choose to place them in, has consequence and develops strictures, one thing, as it were, cannot be all things -

the kind of tagging I associate with, and practise with google reader or things, (that fab organiser,) is simply not appropriate to an editing environment where a finite number of editorially critical elements are coming in - things need to be put somewhere, things do not need to be propagated by keywording into an infinite mash number of smart keyword locations. it argues against the basic understanding of the material at hand. Or at least diffuses it incredibly for questionable worth.

when at the critical end of the edit, as you search around for those last few desperate frames, to find yourself with all of your original material cloned by keywording in all directions - as you look at a hall of mirrors - what exactly to hell are you supposed to do?

the discreet physicality of the originating material is of real importance in a non linear editor.

Given what we casually - and causally - do to the material in the timeline... you could indeed argue that the material's physicality in the browser allows for its intellectual malleability in the timeline.



http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Craig Seeman
Re: Where are we TODAY?
on Jul 28, 2011 at 2:41:51 am

That's not how I like to work and I don't want an NLE that makes it difficult for me to tag a clip multiple ways quickly because the same clip may be used in different contexts.



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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Where are we TODAY?
on Jul 28, 2011 at 3:12:46 am

[Craig Seeman] "I don't want an NLE that makes it difficult for me to tag a clip multiple ways quickly because the same clip may be used in different contexts."


well.. alright then so.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Craig Seeman
Re: Where are we TODAY?
on Jul 28, 2011 at 4:42:45 am

Different tools for different styles.



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Neil Goodman
Re: Where are we TODAY?
on Jul 27, 2011 at 11:26:33 pm

Timeline trimming better than FCP 7? not a chance. The fact i have to wait for it to guess what kind of edit i want to do (trim/slip/roll/ripple) depending on where i put the cursor slows me down right there, and there and its extrmely clunky. Picking the best tool and just using it, instead of hoping it knows and waiting for i to tranform to the tool you want, is ten faster. Not too mention secondary story line wont ripple at all, and if i rmemeber corrctly wont give you the roll tool.

The Playhead jumps all over when you click in the project or story window or whaever you want to call it. FCP7 only effects the playhead if you click up there, not anywhere in the window. So ill have the playhead set on an inset point, click a clip and the playhead moves there , Not cool at all.

My biggest gripe is that now that i know all the keycommands, it seems my hands can work way faster than FCPX can handle. FCP 7 allowed me to breeze thru stuff, i never had to wait for the interface to catch up to what i was doing .

The background rendering is a joke too, because it DOESNT RENDER IN THE BACKGROUND, it waits till you stop. By the time im done with a finished cut, i have tons of rendering to do anyways before i export so its basically like doing it the old fashioned way anyways .

Epic fail on all parts. I like the Color Tools tho and for easy stuff, i dont miss the wheel. The bundled FX are like fischer price my first transitions,i could go on and on.

I really did give it a shot, did the ripple training, tried a few web only interviews i was doing, and while i got it done, it tooks ten times longer.

Neil Goodman: Editor of New Media Production - NBC/Universal


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Craig Seeman
Re: Where are we TODAY?
on Jul 28, 2011 at 12:56:14 am

[Neil Goodman] "The fact i have to wait for it to guess what kind of edit i want to do (trim/slip/roll/ripple) depending on where i put the cursor slows me down right there,"

I guess I'm putting the cursor in the right place.

[Neil Goodman] "Not too mention secondary story line wont ripple at all, and if i rmemeber corrctly wont give you the roll tool. "

Both work for me in Secondary Storylilne. That you're having this much trouble seems that your not yet comfortable with the program. The only thing missing is the precision editor.

[Neil Goodman] "The background rendering is a joke too"

I have no problem working with H.264/AVCHD while it transcodes to ProRes in the background. That's a major time saver.



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Neil Goodman
Re: Where are we TODAY?
on Jul 28, 2011 at 2:18:44 am

Say you have two connected clips above your story line, and they themselves are butted up against each other. You whip out the blade tool, which by the way doesnt really adhere to snap unless your way zoomed in, cut out a bit of the latter clip, and hit either delete button, it doesnt snap over to fill that gap like it does on the primary storyline and how it works no matter what track your on in FCP 7.

And i was saying anything about Transcoding, Which does seem to actually work in the back, but rendering a n effect as advertised doesnt start until you stop. What advantage does this give you over FCP 7 other than you can immediately "see" the effect. Id usually wait to add FX and Color Correction till i have picture lock anyways, but because this was touted as huge feature, id expect it to work as advertised .

Neil Goodman: Editor of New Media Production - NBC/Universal


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Craig Seeman
Re: Where are we TODAY?
on Jul 28, 2011 at 2:26:56 am

[Neil Goodman] "cut out a bit of the latter clip, and hit either delete button, it doesnt snap over to fill that gap like it does on the primary storyline"

Unless I'm not understanding you. It works for me when it's a secondary storyline. Backspace key ripples to and Delete key fill with gap. Either or as I choose.

Are you confusing connected clips with secondary storylines.
Connected clips only have a vertical relationship.
Secondary Storyline has a horizontal relationship and maintains one connection to the Primary Storyline.



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Gary Huff
Re: Where are we TODAY?
on Jul 28, 2011 at 2:44:19 am

[Craig Seeman]Are you confusing connected clips with secondary storylines. Connected clips only have a vertical relationship. Secondary Storyline has a horizontal relationship and maintains one connection to the Primary Storyline.

I think everyone should read this over and over again a few times until they realize how silly this sounds with Apple's brand-Spankin'-new terminology(tm)!


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Craig Seeman
Re: Where are we TODAY?
on Jul 28, 2011 at 4:24:25 am

[Gary Huff] "I think everyone should read this over and over again a few times until they realize how silly this sounds with Apple's brand-Spankin'-new terminology(tm)!"

As long as you have a good Event with many Storylines, we'll all stay Connected with the Magnetic Timeline and Skim to a happy ending.



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Neil Goodman
Re: Where are we TODAY?
on Jul 28, 2011 at 2:48:50 am

i apologize, i did mean just connected clips. Why would i want to wrap sometrhin in a second storyline while im building an edit, just to gain the function of a roll tool? ? what if you decide the next connected clip needs a transition or to be rolled with the previuos clip as well?You have to take those 2 clips out of the second storyline and start again ? The break apart clips button just breaks em off one by one until your left with an empty story line attached to your primary. Surely this unintuitive and a waste of click after click, just because you decide you want to roll and edit point.

Unless im missing something, i couyldnt find a way to add to an already existing secondary storyline .

Neil Goodman: Editor of New Media Production - NBC/Universal


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Neil Goodman
Re: Where are we TODAY?
on Jul 28, 2011 at 2:55:41 am

i will add i am TRYING to give this a software a fair evaluation. Other than transcoding, i dont see one approvement over FCP 7.

Some of the stuff i do is for web, some for broadcast. For the webstuff I WANT this software to work cause i deal with a ton of interviews where all the b-roll and epk stuff is sent in h264 or mp4 And for simple talking head interview, paced to music with sound ups etc, and broll, this SHOULD work perfectly. But it doesnt. Everything Broadcast still happens on the Avids and roibably wont change anytime soon, especially now, but for this web stuff, I would love to be able to use FCPx

Neil Goodman: Editor of New Media Production - NBC/Universal


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Where are we TODAY?
on Jul 28, 2011 at 3:15:37 am

[Neil Goodman] "i apologize, i did mean just connected clips. Why would i want to wrap somethin in a second storyline while im building an edit, just to gain the function of a roll tool? ? what if you decide the next connected clip needs a transition or to be rolled with the previuos clip as well?You have to take those 2 clips out of the second storyline and start again ? The break apart clips button just breaks em off one by one until your left with an empty story line attached to your primary. Surely this unintuitive and a waste of click after click, just because you decide you want to roll and edit point.

Unless im missing something, i couldn't find a way to add to an already existing secondary storyline ."



I'm literally just reposting this.

http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Tom Wolsky
Re: Where are we TODAY?
on Jul 28, 2011 at 4:06:37 am

Why? You can add to any secondary storyline. Just drag clips into it. Cut and paste into it. Edit into it.

All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Coming in 2011 "Complete Training for FCPX"
and "Final Cut Pro X for iMovie and Final Cut Express Users" from Focal Press


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Carsten Orlt
Re: Where are we TODAY?
on Jul 28, 2011 at 3:48:18 am

I hear your pain. It is quite different and therefor needs new thinking (at least that's what I think)

I think you might need to think about what you actually put into the main story line. Yes the old way was to put the interview on V1 and place cutaways on tracks above. When editing the cutaways I could lock V1 so the interview stays like it is.

Now in FCPx you might have to try something different. Put the interview into a secondary story line and edit your cut aways on the main storyline. If you place this interview in the secondary storyline underneath the main story line, you get to see the talking head where you leave (or create) gabs on your main storyline.
Your way of putting clips above the main storyline is the former way of thinking in tracks. FCPx doesn't have tracks so you have to work differently.

Now you might decide that this is not for you and nobody can call you anything. The former track based approach is still represented by all other NLE's, so you choose which you like.

I actually like the trackless world and even though I run into problems because I'm so damned used to tracks that I start the wrong way. But this a matter of time :-)

Hope that helps
Carsten


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Gary Hazen
Re: Where are we TODAY?
on Jul 28, 2011 at 12:07:31 pm

[Carsten Orlt] "Put the interview into a secondary story line and edit your cut aways on the main storyline."

This is counterintuitive.

Editorial is story telling. In describing the individual components of this story you would describe the interview footage as the "foundation" of the story. And the b-roll as the "support" of the story.

You're suggesting that the foundation of the story belongs in a secondary story line and the support material belongs in the primary story line?


[Carsten Orlt] "I actually like the trackless world and even though I run into problems because I'm so damned used to tracks that I start the wrong way. "

It's not that you started the wrong way, it's that you started based on your intuition. It's intuitive to think that the interview footage (the foundation) belongs on the primary story line. I would guess that anyone learning to use FCPX would follow the same approach.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Where are we TODAY?
on Jul 28, 2011 at 4:36:12 am

[Neil Goodman] "Why would i want to wrap sometrhin in a second storyline while im building an edit, just to gain the function of a roll tool?"

It depends whether you're building vertically or horizontally. Building vertically with Connected Clips means each clip maintains a connection to the clip (a frame actually) in the Primary Storylline. This is done if you will move the entire vertical relationship as a unit. Think primary storyline shot with a cutaway or titles or other composits.

Secondary Storyline is a horizontal relationship with a single connection point. This might be a shot in the primary storyline line with several cutaways that transition to each other. That group of shots with transitions in the secondary storyline only need maintain a single connection so that if one moves the clip in the primary storyline, that secondary storyline will move with it.

If you want to transition between two connected clips, just hold down the G key when you move them and when they touch they become Secondary Storyline.



[Neil Goodman] "Unless im missing something, i couyldnt find a way to add to an already existing secondary storyline "

Select the Secondary Storyline (the top gray bar not the clips in it) and you can edit to it just as you can a Primary Storyline. W to insert, E to append, D to overwrite.



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Jean-François Robichaud
Re: Where are we TODAY?
on Jul 28, 2011 at 2:39:17 pm

[Neil Goodman] "The fact i have to wait for it to guess what kind of edit i want to do (trim/slip/roll/ripple) depending on where i put the cursor slows me down right there, and there and its extrmely clunky. Picking the best tool and just using it, instead of hoping it knows and waiting for i to tranform to the tool you want, is ten faster. "

What do you have to wait for? Using the Trim tool, you can perform ripple, roll, slip edits, depending where the cursor is positioned (and slip edits with Option). You don't need to wait for anything. You also have the ability to nudge cuts, extend them to your playhead with shortcuts, etc. Feels pretty responsive to me.


[Neil Goodman] " The Playhead jumps all over when you click in the project or story window or whaever you want to call it. FCP7 only effects the playhead if you click up there, not anywhere in the window. So ill have the playhead set on an inset point, click a clip and the playhead moves there , Not cool at all."


This drove me nuts at first until I found out all you need to do is hold OPTION while clicking on a clip to leave the playhead where it is. So it's cool after all.


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Neil Goodman
Re: Where are we TODAY?
on Jul 28, 2011 at 4:28:44 pm

Ok, well thanks for clearing things up. The secondary story lines arent quite as limited as i thought.

As far as the Trim tool, i still love having a dedicated tool for each kind of edit.

As far as the way we cut interviews, im gonna stay out on my workflow. lol I understand how you say depending on what the main focus of your project is, that should me in the Primary, like for music videos, the music should be in the primary, etc. But for a interview, the talking head is the main story.

Neil Goodman: Editor of New Media Production - NBC/Universal


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Nick Toth
Re: Where are we TODAY?
on Jul 28, 2011 at 6:36:22 pm

[Jean-François Robichaud] "This drove me nuts at first until I found out all you need to do is hold OPTION while clicking on a clip to leave the playhead where it is. So it's cool after all."

That's a great tip - thanks. I discovered you can also hover the mouse cursor over the clip and hit "C". Not sure which one I like better!

NT


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Gerald Baria
Re: Where are we TODAY?
on Jul 29, 2011 at 6:35:31 am

One thing: Speed.

I started my editing journey with Premiere Pro CS5, I installed MB Looks for grading. I edit AVCHD native. I have a quadcore i5 desktop with 6GB RAM. I cannot in anyway have real-time playback with even just 1 layer of MB Looks applied. That's just ONE MB Looks layer. And I have mercury playback engine activated!

Now with FCPX, after turning off "Backgroud render" in playback prefferences, I can attach 5 layers of color correction, 3 effects on a 1080p AVCHD clip (non transcoded) and I get real-time playback every time..Effects preview even works even with all those layers of edit. Hardware? I use the same desktop I have above, hackintoshed...so that is a NON-mac optimised hardware. To think that this still kick Premeire's ass in playback is amazing!

Biggest Like No. 2: Export speed.

Same clip, same length, same color grade with MB Looks, I exported using the same bit rate. Export time = 15 mins.

With FCPX = 90 seconds.

I think that says it all. SPEED is FCPXs best attribute. You can start editing and tagging even when your just ingesting the media, hitting I+O+F is the best rough clip organization workflow ever..you can immediately separate all the usable sections of each clip youve made, and its amazing. for quick edits on an all digital capture + distribution, FCPX is king.

Quobetah
New=Better


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willy pimentel
Re: Where are we TODAY?
on Jul 30, 2011 at 4:56:23 pm

Was skettical at first but once looking at some tutorials and looking into it, I see and excellent potential for a database-driven, 64 bit new program. FCP X is not the old dog but a new puppy that will soon mature.. Stay tuned for now and wait for its upgrade cycle .

Motion Graphics Editor
WNJU- Telemundo NY


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