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Armando Ciurana
If you have to switch today...
on Jul 22, 2011 at 11:39:05 pm

This is pretty much my reality, I have to make a expansion plan for the next year, today and I have been considering switching both of our on-line systems (now FCS 3) to Avid/Autodesk/Black Magic.

I´m still thinking that premiere pro doesn´t get already there, but, I really want to hear your opinions, so:

If you have to switch today, what you would choose: Avid or Adobe PP?

Thank´s in advance!

President
Ciurana Dussauge Films Mexico


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illya laney
Re: If you have to switch today...
on Jul 23, 2011 at 12:15:13 am

Avid

twitter.com/illyalaney

nextLAB Mobile
SpeedGrade DI
Resolve
da Vinci 8:8:8 Renaissance
Color
Truelight



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Lance Bachelder
Re: If you have to switch today...
on Jul 23, 2011 at 12:19:24 am

You can download fully functional demos of PPro 5.5 and MC 5.5 and play with 'em yourself. I do think FCP editors will adapt to PPro within monutes while it will take weeks to fully get MC. Really depends on the work you do - I don't know anyone delivering a broadcast show on a regular basis in PPro, while FCP and MC have no probs.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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Tom Daigon
Re: If you have to switch today...
on Jul 23, 2011 at 12:35:07 am

As an editor who has worked on Avid MC, Avid DS and CP...I switched to Adobe CS 5.5 (Premiere Pro / After Effects). After my experience with Avid I would never go there again. My 3 weeks with PrP are like working with what FCP 8 should have been. Sure there are new ways to do things and some things I have requested to be changed, but I like its power, flexibility and support by the parent company. Here is some info that can elaborate on my experience...


http://www.adobe.com/products/creativesuite/production/features._sl_id-cont.....

http://blogs.adobe.com/premiereprotraining/2011/04/adobe-premiere-pro-cs5-5...

http://tv.adobe.com/show/cs-55-production-premium-feature-tour-

Tom Daigon

Tom Daigon
Avid DS / PrP / After Effects Editor
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com


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Armando Ciurana
Re: If you have to switch today...
on Jul 23, 2011 at 1:00:29 am

Really a very interesting post, I´m watching right now the videos, Thank´s!

President
Ciurana Dussauge Films Mexico


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Tom Daigon
Re: If you have to switch today...
on Jul 23, 2011 at 2:24:59 am

Glad to help Armando!

Tom Daigon
Avid DS / PrP / After Effects Editor
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com


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Armando Ciurana
Re: If you have to switch today...
on Jul 23, 2011 at 1:01:55 am

I´m going to run the trials for both, thank´s for the suggestion!

President
Ciurana Dussauge Films Mexico


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Jonathan Dortch
Re: If you have to switch today...
on Jul 23, 2011 at 2:04:46 am

Since After Effects and Photoshop/Illustrator are so prevalent in our workflow, Premiere Pro was our first target when evaluating switching. It's basically a lost sibling of FCP. Almost the exact same workflow, feel, and tool set. Avid is a different beast all together and not as well suited to our needs as a smaller shop.

So far so good on Premiere. Software is not perfect but if you can drive FCP you can drive PrP. Adobe seems very interested in improving the platform even further and so far has had great communication. It's an awesome feeling to post a question on the Premiere forum here and get a reply from Todd, the Adobe rep. After 10 years of having Apple as a silent partner, real service and support is a wonderful breath of fresh air.

JONATHAN DORTCH
BLACK WOLF CREATIVE


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Tom Daigon
Re: If you have to switch today...
on Jul 23, 2011 at 2:26:11 am

Amen to that Jonathan.

Tom Daigon
Avid DS / PrP / After Effects Editor
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com


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Lance Bachelder
Re: If you have to switch today...
on Jul 23, 2011 at 7:20:22 am

The Adobe PPro team seem to be responding well while they have this window that Apple has opened for them. I was a beta tester from 1.0 to CS3 and it was a horrible experience. They wouldn't listen to anyone and had no one on staff who had pro broadcast or feature film experience who could discern real requests from lame ones - I gave up on PPro but always hoped they would wake up and make it a real pro app since After Effects and Photoshop are both great and industry standards.

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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David Cherniack
Re: If you have to switch today...
on Jul 23, 2011 at 11:40:47 am

[Lance Bachelder] "The Adobe PPro team seem to be responding well while they have this window that Apple has opened for them"

Lance, my take on it is there was a major sea change in Adobe after the problems with PrPro CS4. They got it. They started listening, especially to the pros. With 5.0 still on the horizon they began engaging much more with the outside word, proud of what they were accomplishing. They had a new-found stability with 64 bits, a completley re-written playback engine called Mercury that far surpassed anything in the industry, and CUDA real time power. The openess to the user base pre-dates the FCP-X disaster by almost two years.

Now, I'm sure they see even greater opportunity to accelerate their rise. But they announced their intention to get up there and compete at the top end of the industry before FCP-X was released. Who knows, maybe they read the tea leaves after Apples' presentation at NAB.

In any case, these days it's a pleasure interacting with them on public forums.

David
AllinOneFilms.com


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Tomislav Rupic
Re: If you have to switch today...
on Jul 23, 2011 at 8:45:46 am

I would wait for Avid MC6 and FCPX 1.1 (hopefully with XML)
and decide then :)

I think its a really bad time to go switching your editing software,
especially since your old FCP7 still works perfectly fine...


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Robert Brown
Re: If you have to switch today...
on Jul 23, 2011 at 9:10:24 am

There's never been a better time.



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Rafael Metz
Re: If you have to switch today...
on Jul 23, 2011 at 12:02:23 pm

I started with Avid years ago, worked with Media 100, FCP. Having two FCP suites I tested PPro5.5 and have now finished a project (find the result in the forum in the Adobe Premiere Pro section) with it. In general you really face your needs and the issues only when you work on a project with the system. I really enjoyed working with PPro and (as often said by others) it´s like a FCP8.
I´ve the feeling that Adobe listens and that the PPro6 could be really great - hopefully they will, the chance to get a big amount of FCP users is huge. If they proof that they listen with PPro6 (and the result is awesome) it´s gonna be the new FCP.
My way is to keep one FCP licence, setup a smooth working PPro5.5 place and have a look at Avid again. But I really hope that Adobe will take their chance.


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Oliver Peters
Re: If you have to switch today...
on Jul 23, 2011 at 2:11:19 pm

One thing to consider is the cross-grade promotion Adobe and Avid are offering. If you think you are going to change, test the trial versions now, because the promotions will go away soon. If you bought MC5.5 today on the crossgrade promo and upgraded to MC6 later, you would likely pay less money, than if you wait to buy MC6. Just something you need to factor into the equation.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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alex schwindt
Re: If you have to switch today...
on Jul 23, 2011 at 2:47:45 pm

After what's happened to FCP I've been in the process of learning Premiere CS5.5. I can't say enough good things about this software. Like most other full-time editors I'd been really turned off by previous versions of Premiere, but Adobe has really turned things around with CS5. It's stability is absolutely rock-solid.

For every minor annoyance I experience coming from FCP there are a host of things I like better about Premiere. Even basic things like titling and deinterlacing are heads and shoulders better. Add 64-bit speed and dynamic linking and it gets hard to make a compelling case to move back to FCP7.

I took a look at AVID as well, but the time investment it would take to get my head around the AVID way of doing things was a real deterrent. It only took me one afternoon and a 3x5 notecard to get going enough in Premiere to be able to knock out some actual work.

I haven't totally given up on FCP (I just started messing with FCP X this week) but after a few days I can already tell you that it doesn't meet my workflow needs at this point. Plus it's somewhat crash-happy. There are somethings I really like about X (like skimming), but I have to agree with everyone else that it's not ready for primetime.

Alex Schwindt


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Tom Daigon
Re: If you have to switch today...
on Jul 23, 2011 at 3:14:55 pm

I have the same positive experience with PrP. Its a refreshing change from the last few months of the FCP roller coaster. Dynamic link with AE seals the deal for me.

Tom Daigon
Avid DS / PrP / After Effects Editor
http://www.hdshotsandcuts.com


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Norman Lang
Re: If you have to switch today...
on Jul 23, 2011 at 4:22:36 pm

I agree with Tom and much of what has been said in support of using Adobe CS5.5. Production Premium with Photoshop, Audition, Encore and more, complement Premiere and After Effects very nicely. Love the dynamic links.

I came up the hard way, struggling through Premiere from the beginning on a PC. I finally got tired of the klugey OS and unstable Premiere in favor of a dual quad MacPro and FCP2. Life was good. I loved FCP6, but still kept upgrading the Adobe Production Premium Suite on the Mac, mostly because of Photoshop, which I believe is the best program ever given to man. But I digress...

Like many of you I was thrilled to get my hands on the "new and improved" FCP X, only to be shocked to find that it really had nothing to do with Final Cut except the name and that it edits, kinda. I felt like somebody ran over my dog.

In the mean time I was still pretty excited about CS5.5. The Warp Stabilizer in After Effects alone is just killer. So as disappointed as I was about FCP X. I still had the means, through FCP6 and PPro CS 5.5 to do everything I needed and more.

So what did I do with FCP X, besides scream bloody murder and demand a refund? I started "playing" with it. I actually started to read the manual and watch some of the very cool tutorials out there, just in case I was being myopic. My conclusion is that FCP X will be cool as spit someday. It's all about skimming and metadata. They have really built a nicely modified relational database for getting to and popping in and out of media so you can cut it. The tools are still not perfect. Version 1.0 software never is perfect. However, this is supposedly version 10.0. That's another debate.

I think we need to know the new paradigm. No matter how much negative noise there is right now, this software is headed in the right direction IMHO.

I have done 3 or 4 small HDSLR projects with FCP X, that while very short and sweet, look very nice and were produced wicked fast.

I was also crazy enough to edit a 4 camera shoot of a live concert at the Hard Rock with 4 cameras, 5D,60D,7D and an XLH1 (SDI out to a Ki Pro). To my amazement it was really a dream after I got over the sporadic crashes and wrestling with understanding Storylines and Compound Clips. Self contained it is fine. Previously, I had put together a promo of the concert in FCP6 where I had clips from various tunes that needed to be synched with a 20 track ProTools file. For that I was able to export an OMF file. As we now know, no such luck with FCP X.

To be prepared for the future, you have to learn all the new stuff, even if it may fail to make it to prime time. Between, CS5.5, FCP7 and FCP X you really have the bases covered. As for Avid, it is one of the industry standard work horses and if you have the time and resources, especially with the deal they have out there right now, it would be a worthwhile learning experience. But they too will be releasing a new version soon. And on we go.

Hope this is helpful.

Norman Lang
Lang Productions
http://www.langproductions.com


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Chris Jacek
Re: If you have to switch today...
on Jul 24, 2011 at 2:25:37 am

[Norman Lang] "To be prepared for the future, you have to learn all the new stuff, even if it may fail to make it to prime time. Between, CS5.5, FCP7 and FCP X you really have the bases covered. As for Avid, it is one of the industry standard work horses and if you have the time and resources, especially with the deal they have out there right now, it would be a worthwhile learning experience. But they too will be releasing a new version soon. And on we go. "

One thing I think almost all of us can agree upon: Everything is changing right now. It may not be for the exact reasons that Apple had wanted, but the next year will probably see as much evolution in the industry as 2 or 3 typical years, and all 3 of the A's will be involved.

For everyone working in the industry, I think it will be important to not just be proficient on all 3, but strive to be an expert on all of them. As an instructor, I think the scope is even wider. I feel compelled to teach all 4 versions (FCP7, FCPX, Premiere, Avid). It's going to be wicked-hard for my students, but should be really fun for those who make the effort. And hopefully valuable. Thank goodness for aggressive educational pricing.

Professor, Producer, Editor
and former Apple Employee


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Norman Lang
Re: If you have to switch today...
on Jul 24, 2011 at 3:13:23 am

And I forgot to mention yet another "A", Autodesk. It will be very interesting to see how they respond to this opportunity. They have very expensive software with very liberal trial periods for students and educators already. If they decide to get aggressive with pricing, there is a whole 'nother thing thrown into the mix. It is the same point discussed above. It's time to learn as much as we can about using these tools. There has never been a better time with hardware that is finally getting to where we need it and NLE makers that are eager to gain acceptance and market share... Well almost all of them.

Norman Lang
Lang Productions
http://www.langproductions.com


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Robert Brown
Re: If you have to switch today...
on Jul 24, 2011 at 5:39:52 am

Smoke is still a different animal. It's hands down the best package for doing final to air stuff and is used heavily to conform feature films - Mac version too. But not really optimized for off-line editing. But it blows the other guys away as fas as quality of output and what it's capable of doing. But it would be great if they jumped in more heavily and dropped the price etc. I bet it will happen at some point.



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Lance Bachelder
Re: If you have to switch today...
on Jul 24, 2011 at 7:30:19 am

Uhh I understand most folks here are Mac only and even though they hate FCPX and Apple they're switching to other apps that run on Mac - but don't forget about the single most powerful software driven NLE out there - the one used to cut the most profitable indie film of all time: Paranormal Activity" and then one used to cut AND mix my last 2 features on: Sony VEGAS 10! There I said it...

Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California



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Lucas Way
Re: If you have to switch today...
on Jul 24, 2011 at 11:18:31 am

Personally I'd go with Premiere, it is so like FCP and is now 64bit, has the Mercury engine etc...

I find AVID just too different a beast and unnecessary for my needs (smaller house).


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Daniel Startek
Re: If you have to switch today...
on Jul 24, 2011 at 5:20:09 pm

Ditto for Premier. I could never like Media Composer or Pro tools for that matter. Both modify my system, leave useless folders on ALL the drives without asking and do other stuff that I don't approve of!



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Andree Franks
Re: If you have to switch today...
on Jul 25, 2011 at 7:50:30 am

[Armando Ciurana] "This is pretty much my reality, I have to make a expansion plan for the next year, today and I have been considering switching both of our on-line systems (now FCS 3) to Avid/Autodesk/Black Magic."

Are you also considering FCPX? I am just wondering since you posted your question in the Final Cut Pro X forum.
Yeah it could be confusing and frustrating like choosing a cell phone plan. :)
I would agree with Tomislav, or try them all and pick your best choice that you feel comfortable with.



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Walter Soyka
Re: If you have to switch today...
on Jul 25, 2011 at 4:09:00 pm

I am switching to all of them.

I don't know what systems my clients will ultimately move to, so I'm re-learning Avid (after an 8-year hiatus), I'm learning Premiere Pro, I'm keeping FCP7, and I'm trying to figure out how to properly finish an FCPX project. I'll be ready no matter what.

Once you understand the conceptual differences among the applications, the hardest part is fighting muscle memory on keyboard shortcuts.

Learning a new app or a new workflow is now just another day at the office.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Andree Franks
Re: If you have to switch today...
on Jul 25, 2011 at 4:37:47 pm

See Walter your move is a professional move cause you know how to do the job no matter with what tool. Yup even the Swiss army knife! ;)



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Walter Soyka
Re: If you have to switch today...
on Jul 25, 2011 at 4:40:59 pm

[Andree Franks] "See Walter your move is a professional move cause you know how to do the job no matter with what tool. Yup even the Swiss army knife! ;)"

Well played!

Link to Andree's reference [link].

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Leo Hans
Re: If you have to switch today...
on Jul 26, 2011 at 7:16:39 pm

I totally agree with you.
As a freelance editor, I try to be constantly learning new tools. I am an editor, but I was involved in graphic design, some compositing, and color correcting while other editors focus only in plain cutting. I tend to learn as much as I can.
When I look back, every thing I learned in the past take me here where I am. It's like Steve Jobs said at Stanford speech: You can't connect the dots, but when you look back, they are connected.

Leo Hans
Editor AVID - Final Cut Pro
http://www.leohans.com


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