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Graham Dickinson
Color bars?
on Jul 22, 2011 at 6:52:54 pm

Did Apple not include bars and tone on fcpx?? If they are in the program can anybody tell me where to find them?


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olof ekbergh
Re: Color bars?
on Jul 22, 2011 at 7:07:07 pm

You can easily create them in Motion and save as a FCPX generator. Then they are available in FCPX.

Olof Ekbergh


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Chris Jacek
Re: Color bars?
on Jul 22, 2011 at 7:18:43 pm

[olof ekbergh] "You can easily create them in Motion and save as a FCPX generator. Then they are available in FCPX."

If it's so easy to create, why isn't already included? I'm not at all arguing that it isn't easy, but it does seem to me that their omission is yet another clue to Apple's thinking. "Color bars are SO broadcast! Nobody BROADCASTS any more."

Professor, Producer, Editor
and former Apple Employee


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Bill Davis
Re: Color bars?
on Jul 22, 2011 at 7:25:16 pm

Chris,

Sure they do. It's just that what you used to think of as "Broadcast" is totally different today.

I cut in my studio. The file gets uploaded directly to a station server. It gets forwarded "as is" to the Atlanta head end, it gets served from there to the transmitter in San Diego.

No human ever sees it unless it's some minimum wage intern typing at a laptop to slot it into the digital stream.

What's the point of bars and tone that nobody will ever see?

Look at any current page of modern station delivery standards. They want a content clip only. No bars, no tone, no slate. Just the file please.

I don't like it one bit either - but that's the way it is.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Conner


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Bret Williams
Re: Color bars?
on Jul 22, 2011 at 7:41:11 pm

I just made a set of commercials for local insertion on Comcast. They wanted - DVCam with slate, bars, etc. Still quite a bit of stuff going on the old fashioned way for broadcast in the local arena. They don't even have HD capability for local Comcast insertion as far as I could tell. And this is in Atlanta. At home I'm on Charter and I'm not sure I've seen an HD local commercial. Explains why I see so much letterboxed pillarboxed ads. They make them in HD, then find out it's SD only, so they letterbox them.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Color bars?
on Jul 22, 2011 at 8:56:45 pm

You should seriously look into DGFastchannel/Digit and ExtremeReach. Whoever is telling DVCam may not know the what the cable company can really accept. I haven't delivered tape for a cable spot since around 2006.



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Bret Williams
Re: Color bars?
on Jul 22, 2011 at 9:45:08 pm

I don't do alot of commercials. I think they did do fast channel, but they still wanted SD with bars and slate.


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Chris Harlan
Re: Color bars?
on Jul 22, 2011 at 7:59:56 pm

[Bill Davis] "Look at any current page of modern station delivery standards. They want a content clip only. No bars, no tone, no slate. Just the file please.

I don't like it one bit either - but that's the way it is."


True, I have mostly file-only deliveries for the last three years, but a surprising number of broadcast companies still want B&T. And, for many International deliveries, it is still a must.


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Erik Lindahl
Re: Color bars?
on Jul 23, 2011 at 1:37:45 am

Look at any current page of modern station delivery standards. They want a content clip only. No bars, no tone, no slate. Just the file please.

Not the case for me in Sweden or any country with-in Europe more or less.

Apple has dropped the ball so badly it's not funny. You can argue what you are but then again you can't even monitor FCPX through a broadcast-monitor so I'm not sure how anyone in their rightful mind would use it for professional output (unless it's web or digital only).

------------------------
Erik Lindahl
Freecloud Post Production Services
http://www.freecloud.se


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Garrett Robinson
Re: Color bars?
on Mar 18, 2014 at 6:48:14 pm

I've never had anyone ask me for bars and tone — and yet I use them all the time. They're my go-to "in-between" blips for gag and blooper reels. Of all the ridiculous applications...and yet I go to them all the time.

For anyone who DOES need bars and tone, you can get excellent generators for FCPX that includes bars. It's available here and it's free: http://www.rippletraining.com/categories/apple-pro-apps-tutorials/final-cut...


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Grant Strac
Re: Color bars?
on Aug 21, 2012 at 3:54:13 pm

Final Cut Pro x is not a professional editing system and you can't tell me otherwise. I edit for broadcast and I need bars and tone why the *&^% is it not in the new fcx. Another reason fcx is not a professional edit system....where is batch render? Why can I not send more than one timeline for export using compressor. No matter what anyone says this is not a professional editing system when they exclude MAJOR things a professional editor needs. I despise this program seriously NO BARS & TONE I need that for every project I do


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Craig Seeman
Re: Color bars?
on Aug 21, 2012 at 4:05:24 pm

You seem to be ignorant of the fact that there are professionals delivering broadcast work with FCPX.
In file based workflows, where there is no analog processing or proc amps, data that describes levels can remain consistent. When I deliver file based spots for broadcast, the delivery services aren't requesting bars or tone. Analyzing the file tells them the levels are legal.



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Grant Strac
Re: Color bars?
on Aug 21, 2012 at 4:23:18 pm

No I'm not ignorant of that fact I deliver tape and file based daily but to me it seems that if this where truly for professionals removing such an important asset like bars & tone doesn't make sense. I use FCS 3 and FCX every other day and I find that all the things they have yet to implement in FCX like these small factors make x a prosumer program more than apple trying to make a professional edit program easier for us they made a consumer editor, iMovie, more advanced and called it final cut. I have to deal with these small changes all the time and there is always a way around it or no particular need for it but to me it seems absolutely counterintuitive to remove the basic necessities. Even though most of my programs are delivered file based I still get requests for color bars and its frustrating that I had to export bars and tone from final cut 7 and import into x. I have a apple masters in final cut studio and to go from that to x was a serious disappointment it has some powerful aspects but it's out weighted by the basic processes they excluded. I do not feel like apple took 7 and made it easier they took imovie and made it more advanced rather than meld the two together.


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C. Park Seward
Re: Color bars?
on Aug 21, 2012 at 5:24:12 pm

A reference is a good think. It was absolutely necessary in the analog days and helpful to check levels in the digital world. You never know where the material will show up in the future.

With ESPN, we always send bars through the transmission path to check levels. We also do a lip sync test as well as a frequency sweep for audio. Yes, it all should be perfect and usually is but we still check it every time. You need a reference to check it.

From what I have seen, a circle test would be helpful due to all the aspect ratio mistakes I see on a daily basis.

Best,
Park


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Chris Harlan
Re: Color bars?
on Aug 22, 2012 at 5:32:43 pm

[C. Park Seward] "From what I have seen, a circle test would be helpful due to all the aspect ratio mistakes I see on a daily basis.
"


I'm amazed at the number of people who can't see the difference within a few shots. I've had full promos turned into me for approval where the editor was unaware that he was working with anamorphic footage.


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Geoff Dills
Re: Color bars?
on Aug 21, 2012 at 5:57:34 pm

Ripple Rraining moved their free generators which has a bars generator.

http://www.rippletraining.com/categories/apple-pro-apps-tutorials/final-cut...

Best,
Geoff


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Bill Davis
Re: Color bars?
on Jul 22, 2011 at 7:19:31 pm

Personally I'm not sure what traditional bars mean in a digital world where every color values are typically represented by unchanging numeric data.

It's not like you're chasing analog voltage drift that requires constant tuning to specify what a particular green displays as anymore.

Color bars are kinda an analog video world artifact.

I guess they could be useful for delivery to analog stations in the outlying markets - but every single spot I've delivered the past year has specs that want CONTENT ONLY - no bars, no tone, no slate, no academy leader - NOTHING BUT THE CONTENT delivered to the station. The ISCII code and the clip - that's all the broadcast industry want.

Particularly since few stations even HAVE engineering staffs anymore - the only folks who really ever paid a bit of attention to the bars, tone and slates.

FWIW.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Conner


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Marvin Holdman
Re: Color bars?
on Jul 22, 2011 at 7:38:02 pm

"Personally I'm not sure what traditional bars mean in a digital world where every color values are typically represented by unchanging numeric data."

Bill, your attitude is exactly why encoders and engineers cringe when they hear they're getting content from novice videophiles. But hey, why worry about it? Just don't fuss when the spots you send in look like garbage on the air. We'll certainly be happy to tell your client why it looks so bad and the audio is clipped in some spots and low in others, colors are desaturated and highlights blown.

Marvin Holdman
Production Manager
Tourist Network
8317 Front Beach Rd, Suite 23
Panama City Beach, Fl
phone 850-234-2773 ext. 128
cell 850-585-9667
skype username - vidmarv


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olof ekbergh
Re: Color bars?
on Jul 22, 2011 at 7:57:28 pm

In a way bars are not really necessary the way FCPX works, right now. Once we get NTSC/PAL IO to decks monitors scopes etc. Then it will be very necessary to set up monitors and to deliver to tape.

I still like to slate and put T&B on every video I upload as an H.264 or MPEG, I am hoping that stations that use FTP or similar delivery of commercials actually check the video. And I think most of them do. I have never been asked to just upload a 30 sec spot w/o Black slate T&B and Black at the end of the spot. I treat them as if they are on tape and check them on external scopes just like I would if I go to tape.

So right now I would not deliver anything from FCPX direct for broadcast w/o exporting into M100 or FCP7 just to check/fix levels, before printing to tape or compressing for digital delivery. I would actually use M100 for doing the slate and T&B etc.

But for KIOSK/internet productions I think it is fine just to use the scopes in FCPX to "legalize" the video. Possible even DVD/Bluray, but I like to see those on external Pro monitors and scopes before I commit to having them reproduced, or burning a bunch on our "Robot" BluRay/DVD burner/printer.

Olof Ekbergh


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Chris Harlan
Re: Color bars?
on Jul 22, 2011 at 8:04:35 pm

[Bill Davis] "The ISCII code and the clip - that's all the broadcast industry want."

Definitely NOT true. I make regular file deliveries to the US division of a very large International Broadcaster, and they require B&T.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Color bars?
on Jul 22, 2011 at 8:25:55 pm

agreed. that sounds rather unusual to me. If the thing is being file slotted directly into TX like that - It just seems surprising to have not even a basic slate for the tx/iscii code, title or duration, just to have files plonking into the schedule with no real eyeball monitor or duration QC... what if the event duration is off? or it was supposed to have a living hold? it doesn't really sound very broadcast. the schedule is God no?
and last I checked, broadcast engineers were still putting food on the table. K2's do tend to need handholding.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Rafael Amador
Re: Color bars?
on Jul 22, 2011 at 9:08:41 pm

Today, Color bars is not about using them or not, but about understand them or not.
Dismissing Color Bars shows an absolute lack of knowledge on what video signal (Analog or digital, composite or component) is.
Anyway presets-video-editor won't miss them.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Color bars?
on Jul 22, 2011 at 8:33:32 pm

[Bill Davis] "Personally I'm not sure what traditional bars mean in a digital world where every color values are typically represented by unchanging numeric data."

That might be so in your case, but are you going to argue when bars & tone are required in the delivery specs? Good luck with that one.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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illya laney
Re: Color bars?
on Jul 22, 2011 at 8:51:13 pm

Bill Davis
"Color bars are kinda an analog video world artifact."

So how do you CYA when a client comes back because they think the black levels are wrong? Every delivery we make(HDCAM SR or file based) requires bars and tone.

twitter.com/illyalaney

nextLAB Mobile
SpeedGrade DI
Resolve
da Vinci 8:8:8 Renaissance
Color
Truelight



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Dave LaRonde
Re: Color bars?
on Jul 22, 2011 at 9:21:06 pm

[illya laney] "So how do you CYA when a client comes back because they think the black levels are wrong?"

Apparently in the Brave New FCP X World, all video is perfect.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Tom Matthies
Re: Color bars?
on Jul 22, 2011 at 9:36:10 pm

Letterbox + Pillerbox = Letterbox

E=MC2+/-2db


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Jason Livingston
Re: Color bars?
on Jul 22, 2011 at 9:44:44 pm

[Bill Davis] "Personally I'm not sure what traditional bars mean in a digital world where every color values are typically represented by unchanging numeric data."

What color is the numeric value (178, 234, 72)?

Well, is the color space RGB? sRGB? Adobe RGB? YUV? YCrCb?

Is it Linear? Log? Gamma 2.2? Gamma 1.8?

You can take a video tape, put it in 10 different decks, and within a very tight tolerance, get the same signal coming out of all 10. Try playing a video file in 10 different software, and see what you get.

Without special workarounds, an H.264 made by QuickTime on a Mac will play with the wrong gamma in QuickTime for Windows... and that problem has been around for YEARS. Last I checked even the movie trailers on Apple.com play with the wrong gamma in Windows.

You could argue that Bars & Tone is an old-fashioned way of accomplishing the goal of consistency, but its one that a lot of people are familiar with using. There are some standards for file-based exchange of color space info, but I haven't seen anything reliably used across multiple vendors yet.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Color bars?
on Jul 22, 2011 at 11:34:42 pm

[Jason Livingston] "an H.264 made by QuickTime on a Mac will play with the wrong gamma in QuickTime for Windows"

yes. fixing the whole blend transparency stuff in command-J parameters, when dealing with say, brand critical end spot logo reveal gamma colour values is nothing less than insane.

Digital is a nest of crazy, poorly thought out, inconsistencies - the idea that the imposed order and measurement systems of broadcast, regardless of their application, are a fuddy duddy leftover from days of yore, is really irritating.

*It's a logically falsifiable QC.*


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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C. Park Seward
Re: Color bars?
on Jul 23, 2011 at 3:20:07 am

You really do need to put some form of reference when you send any item out of house. Bars and tone work fine.

Best,
Park


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Bill Davis
Re: Color bars?
on Jul 23, 2011 at 4:19:10 am

Look, I'm not arguing that this is a GOOD thing... I'm arguing it's what the STATIONS are starting to demand.

Since I happen to have them on my desktop, here are the current KNSD (NBC San Diego) spot upload standards...

Acceptable file format for KNSD:
ü Advertiser name, Isci codes, length and HD for High Def or SD for Standard def.
ü No slates
ü No bars
ü Video file must have the exact length of the commercial
ü Video files must be in .MOV

This is a cut and paste DIRECTLY from their current spot standards page.

No slates and No bars are SPECIFIED.

Yes, they accept Digital Betacam as well. And as soon as that physical tape hits the back room, they rack it up and encode it to these SAME file standards before uploading it to Atlanta. Again, no slates, no bars. Why pay for the sat bandwidth costs for stuff like bars and academy leaders that will never see air? Makes NO sense.

Again, I'm not arguing that it's the right way to do things. In my opinion it's totally screwed. I'm arguing that this is where the industry as a whole is moving.
It's driven by MONEY. It saves a TON of money to shut down local master controls and simply serve all the content from a single shop in NYC, Atlanta, or the one a couple of miles from me here in Scottsdale that serves multi-station content to the Pacific Northwest 24/7/365.

Today, you're DAMN LUCKY if anyone qualified beyond the level of an overnight teenage button pusher sees your spot before it gets broadcast in a whole lot of cases. I know that's the reality because I've spent quite a bit of time on the phone with these back room kids on behalf of my clients trying to find out if there's ANY way to avoid the rampant center-punching of HD feeds auto re-purposed for parallel SD channels. (There never is, btw - offer to send them a separate SD letterbox upload and they admit that nobody can even access the SD feed - it's typically just an auto-pillerboxed incremental revenue enhancer in management's eyes.)

Argue all you want about how crappy it is - heck I'll join in - loudly.
But to argue it's not a reality spreading like kudzu is, IMO, denial of the first order.

Broadcast TV is under SIEGE with the economics of the internet age. And cutting expensive engineering labor is one of the quickest and easiest ways for station management to stem red ink.

Yes, there still is a decent bit of high end professional infa-structure serving of the ad agency industry and network prime time needs. But behind the scenes, I'm telling you that I'm seeing the day to day 'non-top 10 major market" plumbing being functionally torn out across the industry.

Driven by the same forces that cause big companies to gobble up smaller ones. Consolidation drives profits. Simple as that.

And in the future, that's likely the environment your work WILL be delivered within - regardless of how you produce it or care about it.

Sucks. But it's reality in my recent experience.

Feel absolutely free to dismiss this thinking. It would be better for all of us if you're right and I'm wrong.

For what it's worth.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Conner


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Don Wilson
Re: Color bars?
on Jul 23, 2011 at 6:00:56 am

We 3D guys have to deliver several different file formats and a left and right eye HD master with bars and tone to EVERY 3D broadcaster. Used to be SR, I guess we could use the deck if the were tape anymore. Bigger question is that do you guys ever calibrate your monitor from your edit system bars? Sure is easy and smart the way it was....just saying.

Don Wilson
donwilson.tv
AmericanaMediaInc.com
V3Dfilms.com
818.660.2915 studio
818.207.6924 cell
818.760.1828 fax


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C. Park Seward
Re: Color bars?
on Jul 23, 2011 at 10:04:52 pm

"Today, you're DAMN LUCKY if anyone qualified beyond the level of an overnight teenage button pusher sees your spot before it gets broadcast in a whole lot of cases."

Every broadcast outlet should review spots for adhering to their standards, both technical and legal. For example, you would not want to air a spot for a cancer cure or a salve for healing baldness, not to mention pornography or slander.

Over-the-air broadcast stations run the risk of losing their license if spots are not reviewed before air. It used to be standard practice.

Best,
Park


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Lee Berger
Re: Color bars?
on Jul 23, 2011 at 11:16:44 am

Why not open FCP 7 (for those who have it), go to the bars and tone generator, and export a clip in the size and frame rate you need. Import that into FCP X. :30 seconds at ProRes wouldn't take up that much space.

Lee Berger
http://www.leebergermedia.com


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Nick Toth
Re: Color bars?
on Jul 23, 2011 at 5:50:46 pm

If you have produced your spot to spec using the scopes in FCP to check your levels then the digital file should not be any different no matter where it goes unless it goes through an analog process. That analog process should be set to broadcast specs by the broadcaster so that your spot passes through unchanged.

When I worked with a lot of analog media that included bars and tone it was typical that the spot was not referenced to the bars and tone anyway. By this I mean that I set proc amp and audio levels to the bars and tone and then found that the spot that followed was out of spec and I had to re-set everything to the spot making the bars and tone worthless in the first place.

I quickly learned to set levels to the spot itself and bypass the bars and tone. This includes spots that came from many different sources including independent producers, broadcast stations, dub houses etc. This is my experience in over twenty years. It always seemed to me that very few people really knew how to calibrate their systems when making dubs.

My local broadcast stations do not want anything in the file but the spot. Cable varies but in the Northeast they want just the spot and will typically take SD and HD spots. You also never know what kind of processing your spots will go through once they reach the play-out facility and propagate through the system. All the bars and tone in the world can't help you there.

NT


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C. Park Seward
Re: Color bars?
on Jul 23, 2011 at 9:56:37 pm

"If you have produced your spot to spec using the scopes in FCP ..."

No, I use real Tektronix scopes.

"...then the digital file should not be any different no matter where it goes..."

Incorrect. I did a series of tests for the International Teleproduction Society with the help of Tektronix and there was only one post-production system that had the input equal the output. A Quantel Harry. Every other VTR or disk system changed the images. Some changes were not obvious to the naked eye but changes were made by the process.This was because the Quantel kit stored the images uncompressed. If you shoot with a DSLR, edit in ProRes and output to H.264, you have changed the image at every step.

"When I worked with a lot of analog media that included bars and tone it was typical that the spot was not referenced to the bars and tone anyway. "

Yes, there are untalented amateurs in every business. That doesn't mean you should not follow industry practice.

"I quickly learned to set levels to the spot itself and bypass the bars and tone. "

I would not want someone changing my levels, especially someone who had no idea why we set levels a certain way based on the emotion we were trying to show. And what standard would you be using to change my settings? Your opinion? Not valid. Can you imagine changing the levels in a motion picture because the overall levels were not high enough, in someone's opinion, but that is where the director wants them?

"You also never know what kind of processing your spots will go through once they reach the play-out facility and propagate through the system."

Actually, that's the best reason to have bars and tone so you can recover from any accidental changes.

Best,
Park


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Nick Toth
Re: Color bars?
on Jul 24, 2011 at 4:11:02 am

[C. Park Seward] "No, I use real Tektronix scopes."

As do I. The more recent FCP scopes are pretty accurate.

[C. Park Seward] "Incorrect. I did a series of tests for the International Teleproduction Society with the help of Tektronix and there was only one post-production system that had the input equal the output. A Quantel Harry. Every other VTR or disk system changed the images. Some changes were not obvious to the naked eye but changes were made by the process.This was because the Quantel kit stored the images uncompressed. If you shoot with a DSLR, edit in ProRes and output to H.264, you have changed the image at every step."

I did not say anything about input to output. I said "if you produce your spot to spec".


[C. Park Seward] "Yes, there are untalented amateurs in every business. That doesn't mean you should not follow industry practice."

You missed my point. I have seen this from any number of sources. I doubt that they are all "untalented amateurs".


[C. Park Seward] "I would not want someone changing my levels, especially someone who had no idea why we set levels a certain way based on the emotion we were trying to show. And what standard would you be using to change my settings? Your opinion? Not valid. Can you imagine changing the levels in a motion picture because the overall levels were not high enough, in someone's opinion, but that is where the director wants them?"

If I set my proc amp and levels to bars and tone and the following program material has crushed blacks, whites pushing 110 IRE, blown out chroma and audio pinned in the red would I be doing my job to leave it like that? I'm not talking about changing individual shots but the overall levels in order to bring them as close to spec as they should be. Typically there is not time to get another dub so that type of thing is going to get corrected.

My whole point is that bars and tone do not mean anything at all if the program was not produced to spec in the first place. Given that many places are no longer asking for slates, bars and tone it is even more incumbent on the producer to make sure they are doing a proper job of mastering.

NT


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Rafael Amador
Re: Color bars?
on Jul 24, 2011 at 10:47:42 am

And how do you know you are "producing to specs' when you don't know what's going inside the machine?

[Nick Toth] "[C. Park Seward] "Incorrect. I did a series of tests for the International Teleproduction Society with the help of Tektronix and there was only one post-production system that had the input equal the output. A Quantel Harry. Every other VTR or disk system changed the images. Some changes were not obvious to the naked eye but changes were made by the process.This was because the Quantel kit stored the images uncompressed. If you shoot with a DSLR, edit in ProRes and output to H.264, you have changed the image at every step."

I did not say anything about input to output. I said "if you produce your spot to spec"."


Is not about input or out put, is about how each application manage the same video info.
Apple have been doing whatever they wanted inside QT/FC, allowing them self absolutely off-standard processes.
Process the same file in FC, Color and SHAKE, and be sure you will get three different things on exporting.
With FCPX things gets even less transparent.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Nick Toth
Re: Color bars?
on Jul 24, 2011 at 2:28:30 pm

My point is - when you play back your final master it should be to spec. It doesn't matter what steps it has gone through up to that point. Those are your decisions to make along the way. As the producer of a video program it is your responsibility to ensure that the final master meets the delivery specifications of its destination.

When I was editing in a linear one-inch suite and got footage on VHS tape that had to be included in the program it was my job to make sure that it was dubbed and edited into the final master properly so that, even though VHS tape is not "broadcast spec", the overall final one-inch master was.

To get back to the original discussion - adding bars and tone to the front of a program does not perform any magic if the program that follows is not to spec in the first place.

NT


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C. Park Seward
Re: Color bars?
on Jul 24, 2011 at 3:21:49 pm

[Nick Toth] "so that, even though VHS tape is not "broadcast spec", the overall final one-inch master was."

VHS tape IS to technical specs if time base correctly correctly. I think the OP may be confusing FCC tech specs to actual content. There is no spec for content. The only spec is for time base stability and blanking, alone with things like sync level, closed-captions, XML protocol and digital standards like CODFM.

Julie Barnathan at ABC once was asked about the picture quality of commercials. He said they would air anything as long as it was paid for.

[Nick Toth] "To get back to the original discussion - adding bars and tone to the front of a program does not perform any magic if the program that follows is not to spec in the first place."

No magic. It just tells how to reproduce the material. If the bars do match the program, the facility that generated the material needs to be educated.

I get material that sometimes has no bars or tone at all. I adjust the Quad VTR to an average setting used on previous tapes and then look at the program. I then have to make an educated judgement to capture the material with reasonable adjustments. However, it is important for migration of archive material that you don't change the content. You are to make an exact copy (or as close as possible). If the tape has bars, you set the tape to bars and do not change the levels.

Best,
Park


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Rafael Amador
Re: Color bars?
on Jul 24, 2011 at 5:22:39 pm

[Nick Toth] "My point is - when you play back your final master it should be to spec. It doesn't matter what steps it has gone through up to that point."
So you mean that as long as you put out a "broadcast safe" signal, it doesn't matter what the signal has been going through.
I disagree very much.
I care about how every single pixel is treated along the whole process.
I care about color-space conversion/color mapping, Chroma resampling.
I care about upscaling/downscaling algorithms.
And I want options and on control on all those processes.

BTW, FCPX has fixed nothing on the FCP color issues. Has skipped them by means of computing-power.
Going 32bFP/RGB just to adjust your YUV picture Luma, is insane.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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C. Park Seward
Re: Color bars?
on Jul 24, 2011 at 2:32:33 pm

[Nick Toth] "I did not say anything about input to output. I said "if you produce your spot to spec"."

When you said, "...then the digital file should not be any different no matter where it goes...", that means it came out of one machine and went into another. That is input to output.

[Nick Toth] "You missed my point. I have seen this from any number of sources. I doubt that they are all "untalented amateurs"."

You missed my point. If they are not knowledgeble in their job function, that doesn't mean you should not follow industry practices. If the bars and tone were set incorrectly by someone poorly trained, that does not mean you no longer have to include them.

[Nick Toth] "If I set my proc amp and levels to bars and tone and the following program material has crushed blacks, whites pushing 110 IRE, blown out chroma and audio pinned in the red would I be doing my job to leave it like that?"

Ah. So you didn't see the movie "300"? Crushed blacks, blown out whites, excessive chroma levels, over enhancement. So you would change that. Really? You assume you know more than the director how the image is supposed to look?

What if I have a commercial airing at several different stations in a market? Will my spot look different because someone at each of the stations will make different adjustments to my material?

What if you have a two hour movie? Should it be previewed completely to make sure levels are set correctly? Or if the first scene is soft with high blacks and low highlights, do you make the correction on that scene or watch the entire movie to set "to spec".

Please list that spec. SMPTE spec? I have been a SMPTE member since 1982 and don't remember seeing a spec that tells me how I must set a level to create an image. It all goes back to "how white is white"?

When I do a college football game and one of the teams has bright white uniforms, am I not allowed to clip the whites? If the team is coming out of the tunnel and I want a silhouette look, am I not allowed to crush the blacks?

Show me "the spec" that says I can't blow out my whites and crush my blacks.

Set to bars and leave it alone.

Best,
Park


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C. Park Seward
Re: Color bars?
on Jul 24, 2011 at 2:47:31 pm

I remember a story about the make-up for Spock when "Star Trek" was starting up. Make-up wanted to decide on the correct color green to make him look more "Vulcan". They did a series of filmed tests. After getting back the first test, they saw a normal looking actor. Add more green. The second test came back and he still looked too normal. Add more green. The third test came back and he still looked too normal.

The color timer was correcting the film. Thinking, "no one wold want a green character. I must make it look normal. Boy, those make-up people need help".

Best,
Park


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