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walter biscardi
Can't open earlier FCP projects?
on Apr 29, 2011 at 2:17:20 am

Philip Hodgetts just raised a very interesting topic of concern on his Twitter feed and something we just discussed briefly on Larry Jordan and Michael Hortons Digital Production Buzz.

Can Final Cut Pro X open a Final Cut Pro 7 project? Philip says it's not yet known if it can.

I can't imagine it wouldn't but then again to have someone like Philip ask that question has me concerned. That would definitely cause utter chaos in our shop. We would have to keep final cut pro 7 running for years to update and open old projects.

And so much for the earlier suggestion of running FCP 7 and X side by side on the same machine. You would have to commit before the project starts what you will use. Honestly this never even crossed my mind.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

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Craig Seeman
Re: Can't open earlier FCP projects?
on Apr 29, 2011 at 2:58:29 am

Don't worry, Wes Plate will have an Automatic Duck FCPX Import product to solve this if need be. Just $495
Export XML and OMF from FCPX? Just $495. Since FCPX is $299 you now have a total cost of $1289 so you can stop worrying about FCPX being underpriced.



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David Roth Weiss
Re: Can't open earlier FCP projects?
on Apr 29, 2011 at 5:30:02 am

I'm certain this is really nothing to be concerned about. There are a number of ways to accomplish moving projects between versions, with XML being among them. I can virtually guaranty that Apple will make backward compatibity a priority. They aren't idiots. Phil is a smart guy, and many of his guesses have been pretty good, but he doesn't have inside information..

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums. Formerly host of the Apple Final Cut Basics, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Andreas Kiel
Re: Can't open earlier FCP projects?
on Apr 29, 2011 at 10:05:49 am

Nobody here can say what will really happen - either it's a guess or (s)he is not allowed.

Problem is that there is a lot of unsureness even at the developers of third party stuff. Wes as well doesn't have any insight. So it will take some time for everybody to catch up.
What's pretty clear: FCP X will take some of the features currently implemented in iMovie. Some of this stuff is difficult to be transferred or mapped from the 'old' structure to the 'new' structure. Maybe something is not working at all.

So for all of us it will be a situation where we have to run both apps in parallel, at least for a while.
That's not a problem I think - many people do run CS5 and FCP in parallel right now or use an AVID on the same machine. You even can run FCP 6 and FCP 7 in parallel right now - though they share some prefs, plugins and the serial number.

Andreas

Spherico
http://www.spherico.com/filmtools


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Andy Mees
Re: Can't open earlier FCP projects?
on Apr 29, 2011 at 2:07:18 pm

We know that iMovie can export projects in FCP 7 XML format which suggests that some form of translation between FCP X and FCP 7 (and hence visa versa) is not necessarily unknown territory. Universal compatibility, function for function? That would seem doubtful, but I'd expect it to be largely compatible. Much as one might simplify aspects of FCP 7 project before sending out to Color, I could see more complex FCP 7 projects needing some simplification before exporting as an XML that would be compatible for import to FCP X.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Can't open earlier FCP projects?
on Apr 29, 2011 at 8:25:16 pm

[Andy Mees] "We know that iMovie can export projects in FCP 7 XML format"

It's only fair to say of course that XML export from iMovie is very, very limited indeed and rather suggests how at the point in time of the release of iMovie 11 at least, they haven't resolved the issue of how to deal with exporting the Magnetic Timeline. Only the sync audio tracks can be exported and a single layer of video and everything else is unsupported - as explicitly mentioned in the export dialogue. This is not to say that the issue is unresolvable, but rather that it's probably not the simplest thing in the world!

But hey, just playing Devil's Advocate again here, sorry ;-)

Simon Ubsdell
Director/Editor/Writer
http://www.tokyo-uk.com


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Paul Dickin
Re: Can't open earlier FCP projects?
on Apr 29, 2011 at 9:54:38 pm

Hi
I've spent a while going through Philip Hodgetts' blog, and his linked blog/presentation by Chris Adamson about AV Frameworks (Apple's QT replacement methodology), most of which is above my head ;-) but some sentences in Apple's developer pages about AV Framework are written (more or less!) in clear English...

Quote:
"The primary class that the AV Foundation framework uses to represent media is AVAsset...
AVAsset is not tied to particular data format. ......such as a QuickTime movie file or an MP3 files (amongst other types).

Each asset contains a timed collection of tracks that are intended to be presented or processed together, each of a uniform media type, including but not limited to audio, video, text, closed captions, and subtitles... Assets may also have metadata.
In a complex composition, however, there may be multiple overlapping tracks of audio and video.

Editing.
AV Foundation uses compositions to create new assets from existing pieces of media (typically, one or more video and audio tracks).
To assemble audiovisual constructs from one or more source assets, you can insert assets into instances of AVMutableComposition.... offering insertion, removal, and scaling operations...

You use a mutable composition to add and remove tracks, and adjust their temporal orderings. You can also set the relative volumes and ramping of audio tracks; and set the opacity, and opacity ramps, of video tracks. A composition is an assemblage of pieces of media held in memory. When you export a composition using an export session, it's collapsed to a file."


That's all (cut/pasted) from:
http://developer.apple.com/library/ios/#DOCUMENTATION/AudioVideo/Conceptual...

Chris Adamson has a slide that summarises that:

AVAsset
A collection of time-based media data
Sound, video, text (closed captions, subtitles, etc.)
Each distinct media type is contained in a track
An asset represents the arrangement of the tracks. The tracks
represent the traits of the media’s presentation (volume, pan, affine
transforms, opacity, etc.).
Asset ≠ media. Track ≠ media. Media = media.
Also contains metadata (where common to all tracks)

http://iphonefall2010.crowdvine.com/system/talks/presentations/000/014/595/...


That description of 'how the new way works' seems to me to correspond pretty much with what we saw happening on the sneak peek timeline, the various clips on the timeline GUI representing what's being described in my quote.

That means a FCP X 'project' is just a database document, and all the 'editing' is going on in the continuing creation of new complex AVAssets.

So to import a FCP 7 project is going to require a mammoth reconversion process to create the new AVAsset 'compositions' needed to work with the old FCP 7 project converted into a FCP X database.

I would guess this will be best handled by a new transitional point version of FCP 7 to handle the conversion procedures, to be distributed after FCP X is made available?



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Chris Kenny
Re: Can't open earlier FCP projects?
on Apr 30, 2011 at 6:28:08 pm

[Paul Dickin] "So to import a FCP 7 project is going to require a mammoth reconversion process to create the new AVAsset 'compositions' needed to work with the old FCP 7 project converted into a FCP X database."

I have no specific familiarity with AV Foundation, but I do have a fair bit of general programming knowledge, I have written Cocoa apps, and I've written quite a few tools that do various things to/with FCP 7 XML files.

There's nothing being described about AV Foundation that makes it sound like conversion would be especially problematic. Clips correspond to AVAssets. Sequences to AVCompositions. AVCompositions have AVAssetTracks, suggesting the "trackless timeline" is a user interface feature, and internal representation still uses tracks.

There isn't really a "mammoth reconversion" here. At least, not an extra one. To understand why, one needs to know something that I don't think would be at all intuitive to non-developers, which is that on-disk representations of data sets are typically independent of in-memory representations of those same data sets. If you have a large, complex data structure in memory representing, say, a sequence, you generally can't just call a saveToDisk() function on it when you want to save it to a file. You have to write code that sort of steps through it, and says "OK, here's an object representing a clip, let's write the XML representing a clip out to this file", etc. And when loading a file, you have to do the reverse. (There are more generalized solutions to this problem, but they likely aren't relevant to this discussion.)

So, yes, FCP X, based on AV Foundation, will no doubt represent things in memory very differently form the Carbon-based Final Cut Pro 7. But this doesn't matter, because FCP X will never see FCP 7's in-memory representations of anything, only the files it writes out. Sure, Apple will have to write code to read those files in (and to write out XML files, etc.), but there is no unique challenge here. FCP X won't really be doing anything when reading/writing those files that isn't conceptually equivalent to what FCP 7 already has to do. And the things represented in those files -- clips, tracks, sequences -- map very well onto the data structures AV Foundation offers.

I do see two potential issues for file conversion here.

One is that as per my speculation here, FCP X might not even have project files. That's fine for sequences -- it can just ask you what sequence you want to import, and then save it out as an FCP X sequence file. And it's fine for regular clips. They just like in your footage library. But what about 'virtual' clips -- subclips, multiclips, etc. that don't exist as discrete entities on disk? How do those get imported? For that matter, how do they exist at all in FCP X outside of the context of a sequence, if it really doesn't have project files anymore?

The second is that, of course, some filters present in FCP 7 might not be present in FCP X, or may render a little bit differently. Or take, for instance, the color corrector -- it seems to have been totally changed in FCP X. Will corrections from the old FCP come in at all? I suspect you won't, on complex projects, quite be able to export an ProRes file from FCP 7, then open that project in FCP X and export a second ProRes file that looks frame-for-frame identical. But these kinds of issues across versions are not all that uncommon (page layout software can even reflow text, etc. after upgrades), so while I'm sure there will be a lot of griping at the cleanup required, history suggests this sort of thing is not the end of the world.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read Does FCP X make project files obsolete? on our blog.


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Andy Mees
Re: Can't open earlier FCP projects?
on May 1, 2011 at 4:04:01 am

[Chris Kenny] "...there is no unique challenge here. FCP X won't really be doing anything when reading/writing those files that isn't conceptually equivalent to what FCP 7 already has to do. And the things represented in those files -- clips, tracks, sequences -- map very well onto the data structures AV Foundation offers."

Agree absolutely. The import of an FCP Classic project will mean interpreting and writing that data into a new internal data format, in the case of FCP X that may mean populating an FCP X database document ... a much more complex operation than any normal FCP update requires certainly, and not all project data may be mappable, but as you say not conceptually different from what already happens.

[Chris Kenny] "I do see two potential issues for file conversion here.

One is that as per my speculation here, FCP X might not even have project files. That's fine for sequences -- it can just ask you what sequence you want to import, and then save it out as an FCP X sequence file. And it's fine for regular clips. They just like in your footage library. But what about 'virtual' clips -- subclips, multiclips, etc. that don't exist as discrete entities on disk? How do those get imported? For that matter, how do they exist at all in FCP X outside of the context of a sequence, if it really doesn't have project files anymore?"


Regarding 'virtual' clips of any description and how mapping those might be handled ... actually I'm thinking FCP X should excel here. Apple appear to have really embraced the power of metadata in this rewrite, and as such it would seem that any virtual clip (which inherently exists physically only as metadata) should be quite easily mapped to new metadata sets. "Sublips" (as in FCP 7 for instance) seem to have been replaced in FCP X by "Ranges" ... a simple range based keyword would certainly seem capable of describing what was previously the virtual representation of a subclip, so I could see them being mapped as such. Multiclips ... thats harder to make a guess at exactly how it might be mapped as we've not seen if or how FCP X 1.0 will handle that functionality ... but personally I've found FCP 7's current multiclip implementation to be somewhat fragile ( especially when compared to the multiclip handling offered by other platforms ) and I would hope to see it largely rewritten perhaps dropping the "virtual clip" aspect altogether. That said, perhaps an existing FCP 7 multclip might be mapped as a unique FCP X sequence itself, the collapsed multiclp in the master sequence as a clip collection (nest) ... then again, Apple being Apple, they're probably wrapping the whole thing up as something far more complex and clever, so get ready for "Dynamic Auditioning" (you heard it here first folks, lol).

[Chris Kenny] The second is that, of course, some filters present in FCP 7 might not be present in FCP X, or may render a little bit differently. Or take, for instance, the color corrector -- it seems to have been totally changed in FCP X. Will corrections from the old FCP come in at all? I suspect you won't, on complex projects, quite be able to export an ProRes file from FCP 7, then open that project in FCP X and export a second ProRes file that looks frame-for-frame identical. But these kinds of issues across versions are not all that uncommon (page layout software can even reflow text, etc. after upgrades), so while I'm sure there will be a lot of griping at the cleanup required, history suggests this sort of thing is not the end of the world.
"


Yeah, I think we can hope for effects to map if and where they're specifically present in both versions of course, but where not (or where significantly changed) then I think folks will have to live with some degree of manual cleanup (and that seems fair enough). Going into slightly unhinged speculation mode, whilst it seems unlikely, we may yet discover that some of the really pervasive "Effects" from FCP Classic (like the 3 Way Color Corrector, that would appear to have been wholesale replaced in FCP X with the Color Board ) may yet also have been ported as "Effects" in FCP X, strictly to provide such compatibility (and familiarity). Ok yes, padded cell moment perhaps.

As ever, time will tell.
Andy


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Chris Kenny
Re: Can't open earlier FCP projects?
on May 1, 2011 at 4:45:05 am

[Andy Mees] "That said, perhaps an existing FCP 7 multclip might be mapped as a unique FCP X sequence itself, the collapsed multiclp in the master sequence as a clip collection (nest) ... then again, Apple being Apple, they're probably wrapping the whole thing up as something far more complex and clever, so get ready for "Dynamic Auditioning" (you heard it here first folks, lol)."

I agree that tagged ranges essentially eliminate the need for subclips. But multiclips and, particularly, clips created by merging dual system audio and video, seem like they'd need somewhere to live other than within sequences. I mean, say you're editing a feature film shot dual system. You might have thousands of merged clips. I don't think you can just dump all of them in a sequence and work from there. You have to be able to work with them the same way you can work with standalone clips, prior to editing them into a sequence.

Apple has to have some solution to this. The most obvious is that I'm wrong that virtual clips can't exist in the Event Library. People have noted the odd icon in the "Phantom Ahead" clip that appears in various released screenshots. Perhaps it's an indication of a virtual clip. In fact, now that I think about it... that's a Phantom clip. The Phantom doesn't record audio, and that clip has attached audio. It has to be some sort of merged clip. Unless Apple went and embedded audio in the ProRes transcode before importing, but that seems a little nuts.

[Andy Mees] "Going into slightly unhinged speculation mode, whilst it seems unlikely, we may yet discover that some of the really pervasive "Effects" from FCP Classic (like the 3 Way Color Corrector, that would appear to have been wholesale replaced in FCP X with the Color Board ) may yet also have been ported as "Effects" in FCP X, strictly to provide such compatibility (and familiarity). Ok yes, padded cell moment perhaps."

Apple has always been pretty aggressive about ditching backwards compatibility. I doubt they've done anything that elaborate. I suspect they make an effort to translate applicable settings for filters that have a corresponding implementation in FCP X, but this is probably like Color's ability to import 3-way correction done in FCP: a starting point, but not even really trying to be an exact match.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read Does FCP X make project files obsolete? on our blog.


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Andy Mees
Re: Can't open earlier FCP projects?
on May 1, 2011 at 5:28:32 am

[Chris Kenny] " But multiclips and, particularly, clips created by merging dual system audio and video, seem like they'd need somewhere to live other than within sequences. I mean, say you're editing a feature film shot dual system. You might have thousands of merged clips. I don't think you can just dump all of them in a sequence and work from there. You have to be able to work with them the same way you can work with standalone clips, prior to editing them into a sequence."

Yeah, its possible in the GUI they might not be directly referenced as "sequence" data per se, but I'm suggesting that the internal data model of a sequence (ie AVComposition) would certainly seem to be able to be used to describe (and therefore to map) these otherwise 'virtual' clips. Whether or what discrete means FCP X might offer to create, manage and to present these "clips" we'll have to wait and see ... but certainly in the show and tell we heard specifically about built-in support for automatic handling and syncing of second system audio means "merged clips" are clearly designed in, plus we saw in the "oh look its out of sync" section that Randy "stepped in" to the clip item in the timeline to resync the attached audio track which suggests that the clip itself was either a nested sequence itself or was just being represented as one in the timeline to facilitate editing.


[Chris Kenny] "It has to be some sort of merged clip."

That does seem to tick all the boxes.


[Chris Kenny] "probably like Color's ability to import 3-way correction done in FCP: a starting point"

Yep, I think we should be able to reasonably hope for this.


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Paul Dickin
Re: Can't open earlier FCP projects?
on May 1, 2011 at 10:37:17 am

[Chris Kenny] "You might have thousands of merged clips. I don't think you can just dump all of them in a sequence and work from there. You have to be able to work with them the same way you can work with standalone clips, prior to editing them into a sequence."

[Andy Mees] "...I'm suggesting that the internal data model of a sequence (ie AVComposition) would certainly seem to be able to be used to describe (and therefore to map) these otherwise 'virtual' clips..."
Hi Chris and Andy
Thanks for the clarification- I'm feeling for a non-technical understanding of all this. ;-)

It seems to me that what we call 'sequences' in FCP 7 will in FCP X exist as OS X/iOS system-level AVMutableCompositions - which look to me in theory to be capable of becoming - recursively - as complex as necessary...

Everything contained within the 'sequence' will be either AVAssets (clips), AVCompositions (merged clips) or AVMutableCompositions (combined clips and other nested-type editing blocks). This would include multi-cam capability, which would just be another multi-video-track AVMutableComposition.

All this is going on at OS level, and the database to define all this myriad of AVAssets/Compositions/MutableCompositions has to be part of the OS's AVFoundation methodology.

So FCP X's role in this process is
a) to provide a GUI to manage the development of this data - creation of new assets/compositions etc etc
b) to provide tools to modify the underlying AVAsset data - colour correct it etc etc
and
c) maybe to be a database-management supertool to handle the extensively layered datasets that the editing process will require of the OS.

So the 'project' in future will not at all like it has been done in the past :-)



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Chris Kenny
Re: Can't open earlier FCP projects?
on May 1, 2011 at 2:18:50 pm

[Andy Mees] "plus we saw in the "oh look its out of sync" section that Randy "stepped in" to the clip item in the timeline to resync the attached audio track which suggests that the clip itself was either a nested sequence itself or was just being represented as one in the timeline to facilitate editing."

Yeah, this was really interesting to see. I've always found it frustrating in FCP that if a merged clip is slightly out of sync, you can't just pop it open as if it were a sequence and slide things around to fix it. FCP X definately seems to blur the lines between sequences and merged clips, and I suspect it handles multiclips the same way as well. That's extremely powerful, I think.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read Does FCP X make project files obsolete? on our blog.


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Philip Hodgetts
Re: Can't open earlier FCP projects?
on May 13, 2011 at 1:12:21 am

FWIW, Apple are clearly doing something with Sequences and the underlying Database that isn't currently supported in AVFoundation - in AVFoundation there's no "getnextinterestingevent" which would be needed to build a sequence purely in AVFoundation.

Philip Hodgetts
President, Intelligent Assistance
AssistedEditing.com Fast First Cuts, Metadata Worfklows
Big Brains for Rent bigbrainsforrent.com
The New Now - Grow your business - ProAppsTips.com
Personal Blog http://philiphodgetts.com


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Andy Mees
Re: Can't open earlier FCP projects?
on Apr 30, 2011 at 5:22:32 am

Very fair point Simon.


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Chris Kenny
Re: Can't open earlier FCP projects?
on Apr 29, 2011 at 2:40:38 pm

Hey, so I don' have any specific information, but I'd like to point out that we don't know whether or not Final Cut Pro X causes cancer. That would definitely cause utter chaos in our shop. We would have to keep Final Cut Pro 7 running for years to avoid dying horribly.

Seriously, the "What's the worst thing that could possibly be true about FCP X?" game is getting really, really old. Maybe Apple has cut all sorts of essential features... but there is absolutely no information indicating that, and in the absence of such information it's rather more reasonable to believe that Apple is not, in fact, carrying out an elaborate and expensive suicide in the pro video editing market at this time.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read Does FCP X make project files obsolete? on our blog.


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Andy Mees
Re: Can't open earlier FCP projects?
on Apr 29, 2011 at 2:49:24 pm

>Seriously, the "What's the worst thing that could possibly be true about FCP X?" game is getting really, really old.

So stop playing Chris, you don't have to comment on every thread, especially if you have nothing especially constructive to add to it.


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Chris Kenny
Re: Can't open earlier FCP projects?
on Apr 29, 2011 at 2:53:20 pm

Nobody has anything constructive to add on this subject, because there is no information. This sort of baseless speculation simply amounts to trolling at this point.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read Does FCP X make project files obsolete? on our blog.


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Andy Mees
Re: Can't open earlier FCP projects?
on Apr 29, 2011 at 3:10:12 pm

>Nobody has anything constructive to add

Did you get out of bed the wrong side this morning Chris? This is the FCP X forum, of course there is rampant speculation in here, how could there not be?
You've got a brain up there, why not consider the question and put forward what you think might be valid arguments for or against the supposition? Simply harping on with the same canned response is getting a bit old.


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Arnie Schlissel
Re: Can't open earlier FCP projects?
on Apr 29, 2011 at 3:13:20 pm

[walter biscardi] "Can Final Cut Pro X open a Final Cut Pro 7 project? Philip says it's not yet known if it can."

I'd like to point out that it's also not yet known if it can't. Yes, backward compatibility is a very serious issue, but I suspect that someone at Apple (like Randy Ubillos, perhaps?) kind of knows this already.

[Chris Kenny] "Hey, so I don' have any specific information, but I'd like to point out that we don't know whether or not Final Cut Pro X causes cancer."

I'm also worried that it might cause all of my food to spoil. No one's really addressed that concern, either.

[Chris Kenny] "Seriously, the "What's the worst thing that could possibly be true about FCP X?" game is getting really, really old. "

Me too! We're engaging in a game of kremlinology, where we look at a photo of the Soviet leaders watching the annual May Day parade, and then interpret that photo to tell us what the state of the Soviet wheat harvest will be. But the kremlinologists don't seem to know or care that the photo is doctored and the event is staged.

Read my blog if you need that explained: http://www.arniepix.com

Arnie
Post production is not an afterthought!
http://www.arniepix.com/


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Craig Shields
Re: Can't open earlier FCP projects?
on Apr 29, 2011 at 3:15:22 pm

During the demo, they showed a big project opened in both 7 and X. He mentioned that it was the exact same project with the same cuts and transitions. I think that was your hint. Why would they rebuild that extensive project? I think they wanted to show that you could not only open those projects, but also make them less cumbersome with the grouping/nesting feature.



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Andy Mees
Re: Can't open earlier FCP projects?
on Apr 29, 2011 at 3:36:09 pm

Well remembered Mr Shields, yup theres certainly plenty to suggest that project compatibility will be covered.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Can't open earlier FCP projects?
on Apr 29, 2011 at 3:55:59 pm

[Craig Shields] "During the demo, they showed a big project opened in both 7 and X. "

Well done Craig. I was just speaking about that on the phone with a friend and was preparing to mention the same thing when I saw you'd already done it.

As my friend mentioned, none of us can say we know much of anything definitively, but it certainly would appear that Apple's chosen show opener probably indicates that FCPX hasn't been thought out in a total vacuum as some are imagining.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums. Formerly host of the Apple Final Cut Basics, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Andy Mees
Re: Can't open earlier FCP projects?
on Apr 29, 2011 at 4:25:20 pm

Probably only fair to point out that in the demo they don't state directly that it was the "same project", only that the two screenshots contrast and compare how an edit (with every single frame and every single cut in the same place) looks in each version ... and yes, given that then it certainly "could" have been rebuilt specifically for demo comparison purpose for the demo. I'm still inclined to think tho that just plain common sense (if not direct evidence) points to XML interchange compatibility.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Can't open earlier FCP projects?
on Apr 29, 2011 at 5:34:41 pm

[Andy Mees] "I'm still inclined to think tho that just plain common sense (if not direct evidence) points to XML interchange compatibility."

Agreed!!! And, just by way of comparison, when the good folks at Adobe began their major move a few years back with a total rewrite of their entire suite, which became CS4, they ushered in much more robust XML functionality, as well as greater interoperability between apps with their "dynamic linking." And, backward compatibility with previous projects didn't suddenly go missing after the rewrite.

Adobe wasn't hamstrung by their rewrite, in fact, it opened many new pathways for the development of improvements to the software. So, while it may take sometime to perfect things, there's no reason to fear that Apple's total rewrite of FCP has got to signal its ruin.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums. Formerly host of the Apple Final Cut Basics, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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David Cherniack
Re: Can't open earlier FCP projects?
on Apr 29, 2011 at 7:50:29 pm

[David Roth Weiss] " just by way of comparison, when the good folks at Adobe began their major move a few years back with a total rewrite of their entire suite, which became CS4, they ushered in much more robust XML functionality, as well as greater interoperability between apps with their "dynamic linking." And, backward compatibility with previous projects didn't suddenly go missing after the rewrite."

Just by way of accuracy the big re-write for Adobe was between Premiere 6.5 and Premiere Pro 1.0 and the latter couldn't open the former's projects. I would nevertheless expect that Apple can use XML to open most of what's in a 7.0 project. The only gotchas may be ones where parameters can't carry over into the new interface.

With Adobe the move to 64 bits was probably foreseen well in advance...possibly as early as 1.0 (2003)

David
AllinOneFilms.com


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Craig Seeman
Re: Can't open earlier FCP projects?
on Apr 29, 2011 at 4:52:39 pm

And for those panicking about tape input, if you look at the bin shot list on the left of one of the screen shots, there's a shot labeled "vtr" which is in a bin of imported media. It might imply 3rd party capture utility but in any case it seems there was tape input through some means, through my inference at least.



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Brian Mulligan
Re: Can't open earlier FCP projects?
on Apr 29, 2011 at 5:45:44 pm

Because it's impossible to rename a shot or a bin to say 'vtr'. :)



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David Roth Weiss
Re: Can't open earlier FCP projects?
on Apr 29, 2011 at 5:56:26 pm

[Brian Mulligan] "Because it's impossible to rename a shot or a bin to say 'vtr'. :)
"


Brian,

As a communicator by trade, isn't reaching your audience of some importance to you? If so, we have absolutely no idea who you're responding to or therefore what point you're trying to make.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums. Formerly host of the Apple Final Cut Basics, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Bret Williams
Re: Can't open earlier FCP projects?
on Apr 29, 2011 at 6:28:08 pm

Made sense to me. He's implicating that Apple renamed a bin or the data VTR to make people think it has VTR compatibility. Why they would do this I have no idea. It's a pretty ludicrous implication. All it would do is piss people off in the end.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Can't open earlier FCP projects?
on Apr 29, 2011 at 6:32:01 pm

Please disregard my last post, the original post was not showing here for some reason, but now I see it.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums. Formerly host of the Apple Final Cut Basics, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Bret Williams
Re: Can't open earlier FCP projects?
on Apr 29, 2011 at 6:22:55 pm

I only noticed in the times I watched it afterward, that he went out of his way NOT to mention they imported the project. Only that here is the same project in X and here is how it looks cleaner. Many of us stray away from nested seqs for this very reason. It's hard to see what is happening without digging down, stepping in, etc.


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Paul Jay
Re: Can't open earlier FCP projects?
on Apr 29, 2011 at 6:42:57 pm

Its new code. I doubt it will overwrite fcp 7 cause its not upgradable.
If it does than dual boot is a solution.


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Bret Williams
Re: Can't open earlier FCP projects?
on Apr 30, 2011 at 7:29:15 am

Yes Paul of course that's true.

However, we're discussing whether FCP X will be able to import a FCP 7 project and whether the project they showed in the sneak peek was imported or recreated. What are you discussing?


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Paul Dickin
Re: Can't open earlier FCP projects?
on Apr 30, 2011 at 8:03:34 am

[Bret Williams] "we're discussing whether FCP X will be able to import a FCP 7 project... What are you discussing? "
Hi
I was speculating that rather than FCP X being lumbered with extra bloat to enable the 'import' of the XML (or native code or whatever) from an FCP 7 project it might be more elegant to put the burden of that export onto an 'enhanced' FCP 7 - given that it seems in all probability to require a major media asset repurposing.

And given the likelihood in future of huge additional FCP X sales to non-FCP 7 users. And the fact that under an App Store download distribution model it would be of benefit to minimise bloat.

The whole whether-it-will/whether-it-won't tone of this forum seems scare-mongering and specious to me - the facts as we have them from the sneak peek and Apple's Developer web site are enough to make it clear that Apple is continuing its Pro Apps commitment ;-)

What on earth are consumers going to need Closed Captioning functionality for home movie creation on their iPads for? AV Frameworks enables full functionality for continued professional media creation. IMO... :-)

Also I am speculating about some of what Philip Hodgetts might have to say in his forthcoming pre-announcement FCP X Webinar, where my reply is OnT I thought - rather than cross-posting all over the forum ;-)

Edit: I realise I'm probably not the Paul that Brett's comment was aimed at - but I was the last Paul to post....


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Philip Hodgetts
Re: Can't open earlier FCP projects?
on May 13, 2011 at 1:06:04 am

I'm pretty sure that was NOT what I said Walter. I was there too :) Greg listened in and he concurs that was not what I said.

What I said was that FCP 7 projects will import to FCP X by exporting XML from FCP 7 and importing it to FCP X. There is support for legacy XML import. (and apparently import only, we will see).

So everyone stop panicing. That's not what I said and it's not what I expect.

Philip

Philip Hodgetts
President, Intelligent Assistance
AssistedEditing.com Fast First Cuts, Metadata Worfklows
Big Brains for Rent bigbrainsforrent.com
The New Now - Grow your business - ProAppsTips.com
Personal Blog http://philiphodgetts.com


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Can't open earlier FCP projects?
on May 13, 2011 at 1:17:57 am

[Philip Hodgetts] "So everyone stop panicing. That's not what I said and it's not what I expect."

Phew!!! What a relief!

THNX for stopping by the Cow to clarify Philip.

Hey, we've got to arrange that long overdue get-together we discussed a while back.

David

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles
http://www.drwfilms.com

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Business & Marketing and Apple Final Cut Pro forums. Formerly host of the Apple Final Cut Basics, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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