FORUMS: list search recent posts

Just an observation

COW Forums : Apple Final Cut Pro X Debates

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
Nigel Beaumont
Just an observation
on Jul 21, 2011 at 2:05:54 pm

The scenario: I'm a FCP7 user, very happy with it and in no rush to learn something new. Apart from my commercial work, I do all the video production for my church but we're looking to take that more "inhouse" with a keen volunteer. The volunteer has used macs but doesn't own one, dabbles in photoshop and a has done a bit of audio editing. He has no video editing experience whatsoever.

FCPX looks like a good value purchase for the church - we're not creating for broadcast (yet) and the packages are for projection or use on the website. Working on an older iMac, we seem like the user FCPX was aimed at.
So I get the complete set (FCPX, Motion and Compressor) and start playing around. My impressions are mixed, stuff to like and stuff to dislike and progress is slowed because a lot isn't obvious when coming from FCP7. Yesterday however, we take the plunge and I get the volunteer to edit a package on it.
He's watched me play for one day, and I'm present to guide but I try to leave him to it.
The result? With very little intervention he imports rushes, music and graphics, puts it together, adds titles and transitions, keyframes the audio and generally creates a very slick product. He also really enjoys himself....

I was seriously impressed. It fascinates me that someone with no previous NLE baggage could navigate round the interface so well and get a good result so quickly. X won't replace 7 in my business, but I am beginning to see its potential.

Nigel Beaumont

Mac Pro Quad 3.0Ghz 12GB FCS 3 OSX 10.6.7, Aja IO, some black cables&shiny firewire drives

"Ofcourse it'll be finished in time for tx"


Return to posts index

Marvin Holdman
Re: Just an observation
on Jul 21, 2011 at 2:39:52 pm

I'm noticing this as well. As FCX seems more conducive to bringing a wider base of potential users to the market, what does that mean for someone at a management level?

How much time is it worth investing for a complete novice? How beneficial can they be for some of the mundane chores? How would this transition to other systems for finishing? Correcting?

We are presently trying to determine how this product might be used to distribute mundane task/projects to a wider user base. Starting to see some potential, which gets us real specific on what feature sets will have to be available before it is a viable resource.

In the end, just how much usable work can we get from someone who might know nothing about editing?

Marvin Holdman
Production Manager
Tourist Network
8317 Front Beach Rd, Suite 23
Panama City Beach, Fl
phone 850-234-2773 ext. 128
cell 850-585-9667
skype username - vidmarv


Return to posts index

Brian Mulligan
Re: Just an observation
on Jul 21, 2011 at 3:09:23 pm

I am sure that if you sat them down with Premiere they could also edit something. The thing about FCPX is that it does a lot of stuff for you. Anyone that has spent anytime watching TV/Movies/Videos knows how to assemble clips in some logical order. That is the subtle education in visual communication that editing has taught everyone. He knows things without knowing how he knows them.

So I don't find it surprising that a novice can assemble clips with music and some graphics. But just because you can play "3 Blind Mice" on the piano, doesn't make you a musician. They is still a lot of art and science behind post production and it would be good for an editor to understand these things. Bit depth, color space, mattes.

Even in the days of Super 8mm, and home movies. People could still edit with little knowledge.

<a href="http://i1.creativecow.net/u/29706/media_httpimagesinsta_leibd.jpg.scaled500.jpg"><img src="//i1.creativecow.net/u/29706/media_httpimagesinsta_leibd.jpg.scaled500.jpg" border="0" /></a>

Brian Mulligan
Senior Editor - Autodesk Smoke
WTHR-TV Indianapolis,IN, USA
Twitter: @bkmeditor


Return to posts index


Brad Bussé
Re: Just an observation
on Jul 21, 2011 at 6:41:32 pm

Gotta love that patronizing photo taken, what, 25 years after women had already dominated the cutting room.


Return to posts index

Craig Seeman
Re: Just an observation
on Jul 21, 2011 at 3:23:16 pm

[Nigel Beaumont] " was seriously impressed. It fascinates me that someone with no previous NLE baggage could navigate round the interface so well and get a good result so quickly."

This is key. I said elsewhere that Apple likely looked at how people intuitively handle interfaces without preconceptions and that guided them in creating the GUI. That's a long range intelligent design decision and, over time, people climbing the ladder will see this as an advantage.



Return to posts index

TImothy Auld
Re: Just an observation
on Jul 21, 2011 at 4:23:46 pm

That, for good or ill, is exactly who the product seems to be designed for: Someone with no previous NLE (or editoriial) experience.

bigpine


Return to posts index


Craig Seeman
Re: Just an observation
on Jul 21, 2011 at 4:36:08 pm

[TImothy Auld] "That, for good or ill, is exactly who the product seems to be designed for: Someone with no previous NLE (or editoriial) experience."

And some portion of those will be the next generation professionals.



Return to posts index

TImothy Auld
Re: Just an observation
on Jul 21, 2011 at 4:46:26 pm

Which is why I said "for good or ill."

bigpine


Return to posts index

Marvin Holdman
Re: Just an observation
on Jul 21, 2011 at 4:53:33 pm

Craig, I did notice the point you made regarding the interface, but still I wonder what the ultimate benefit for the video industry will be from it. Just as Word gave widespread availability of word processors to the masses, and simplified templates eliminated many design and printing jobs, I think this MAY have the same effect. Still, iMovie has existed for how many years now? And while it certainly brought the availability of many of these "new" concepts to the masses, I seriously wonder if the "extra" features are going to create a massive stampede of users?

Conceptually, FCX and iMovie are pretty close as far as I can see. Sure, users like yourself, who have the background and time to sort through it will point out many fantastic advances, but... are they really enough to empower the masses to produce that much more content? I ask sincerely.

Perhaps FCX greatest advancement is the opportunity to scale it out? Not knowing enough about iMovie architecture, I would have to wonder why we haven't seen a rush of 3rd party developers for "extra" features in that application. As they are both targeted to consumers (at the very LEAST the initial FCX release is), then what differences make FCX viable for an explosion of video from consumers, as opposed to say, iMovie?

Marvin Holdman
Production Manager
Tourist Network
8317 Front Beach Rd, Suite 23
Panama City Beach, Fl
phone 850-234-2773 ext. 128
cell 850-585-9667
skype username - vidmarv


Return to posts index


Joseph Owens
Re: Just another observation
on Jul 21, 2011 at 5:24:54 pm

[Craig Seeman] "And some portion of those will be the next generation professionals."

Somewhere between 1 and 10%, closer to 1 than 10, and by their own choice. The reason why is that it just doesn't pay. Its just not worth putting in the effort anymore. Another forum that I belong to contained a comment that an A-Lister made at the FC rollout a couple of years ago with Apple claiming to have created 3Million new editors.... *No, his response was, There's now about 2,990,000 hackers devaluing the sector for the rest of us.* [I'm just passing along the observation from somebody whose name rolls by in the credits fairly often, but not as often as it once did.]

With high-end post failing at a massive rate, the general trend that I observe close- and first-hand over the last 12 years or so is that post production in general has come to occupy a status-slot somewhere around cottage-industry sweatshop, and it is perceived to be for people who don't have any real skills (sloughed-off to some random intern), not that any skill or special knowledge is apparently required, and frankly is sifting down to pariah-hood. Poor thing, can't get a real job.

Try it... "I'm a video editor" at the next party, and the response will be... oh, my niece uses Final Cut at her agency, but she's kind of sick of it because it takes a lot of time away from what she's supposed to be doing. It will not be "oh, cool, what movies are you working on...?" oh, no... that hasn't happened for years.


jPo

You mean "Old Ben"? Ben Kenobi?


Return to posts index

Joseph W. Bourke
Re: Just another observation
on Jul 21, 2011 at 8:21:04 pm

Once again - a tool - albeit a partially built tool - arrives in the market place, and it's cheap enough that everyone thinks they can be an editor. As I've always said - it should say right on the box: "talent not included".

The desktop publishing industry did the same crash and burn with the advent of the first Macs and 36 different typefaces. Now anyone in the office with a computer with MS Publish and fifteen minutes of spare time is the newsletter designer.

It seems, that Apple is quite successfully in the business of selling whatever sells, and has proven it in the market. Good product...bad product...is it selling? OK. At this point in time, they could put a lightup Apple logo on a turd and sell millions of them.

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


Return to posts index

Marvin Holdman
Re: Just another observation
on Jul 21, 2011 at 8:28:35 pm

Personally, I'm waiting on the release of the iRock. No, not a branded iPod, a boomerang of the Pet Rock, from back in the day. If you know what that is, you're definitely one of the curmudgeon set.

Marvin Holdman
Production Manager
Tourist Network
8317 Front Beach Rd, Suite 23
Panama City Beach, Fl
phone 850-234-2773 ext. 128
cell 850-585-9667
skype username - vidmarv


Return to posts index


Joseph W. Bourke
Re: Just another observation
on Jul 21, 2011 at 9:28:43 pm

Of course I remember it, Marvin. I bought one! But of course now you'll have to have a shiny iDock for your iRock, and a silicon iSkin to protect it from bumps, and an upgrade if you want a higher resolution iRock. The iRock Cinema....

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


Return to posts index

Marvin Holdman
Re: Just another observation
on Jul 21, 2011 at 10:14:41 pm

Don't know about you, but I'm already planning on being in line at the iStore for the release. I'm tingly!

Marvin Holdman
Production Manager
Tourist Network
8317 Front Beach Rd, Suite 23
Panama City Beach, Fl
phone 850-234-2773 ext. 128
cell 850-585-9667
skype username - vidmarv


Return to posts index

Joseph W. Bourke
Re: Just another observation
on Jul 21, 2011 at 11:09:45 pm

i i Marvin -

But I've heard rumors that the iRock won't import previous projects from the iPebble, running on the Igneous OS. Is that true?

Joe Bourke
Owner/Creative Director
Bourke Media
http://www.bourkemedia.com


Return to posts index


Chris Kenny
Re: Just another observation
on Jul 21, 2011 at 11:14:27 pm

[Joseph W. Bourke] "It seems, that Apple is quite successfully in the business of selling whatever sells, and has proven it in the market. Good product...bad product...is it selling? OK. At this point in time, they could put a lightup Apple logo on a turd and sell millions of them."

Please name some of these "bad products" that have been highly successful because of Apple's magical marketing.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


Return to posts index

Tim Wilson
Re: Just another observation
on Jul 22, 2011 at 1:12:20 am

[Chris Kenny] "Please name some of these "bad products" that have been highly successful because of Apple's magical marketing."

You mean besides Final Cut Pro?

Kidding.

Rather than spout another opinion, I'll let Apple take the floor.

Apple TV - may not be a bad product, but maybe barely a product at all yet. It was introduced in 2006 as "a work in progress." Its relaunch as Take Two implied something that Steve made explicit: "Apple TV was designed to be an accessory for iTunes and your computer. It was not what people wanted."

As late as 2009, Tim Cook said in Apple's Q2 earnings call, "In fact unit sales were up over 3 times vs the year-ago quarter. However let me be clear, we still consider this a hobby."

They "only" sold an estimated 6.6 million up until then, at least another 2 million since then (820,000 in Q2 11 alone! Don't have the Q3 number yet)...but not bad for a product that people have been told repeatedly isn't that important yet.

It doesn't do any less than they say it does, but buying a product in this state is kinda like paying to be a beta tester. Any other companies you've ever paid a hundred dollars...or two...or three...to test a product that wasn't exactly on the front burner?

I said any OTHER companies. :-)

Fortune recently told the tale of what happened soon after the launch of MobileMe.

According to a participant in the meeting, Jobs walked in, clad in his trademark black mock turtleneck and blue jeans, clasped his hands together, and asked a simple question:
"Can anyone tell me what MobileMe is supposed to do?" Having received a satisfactory answer, he continued, "So why the f^ck doesn't it do that?"

For the next half-hour Jobs berated the group. "You've tarnished Apple's reputation," he told them. "You should hate each other for having let each other down."


(I included the link for that one, but the other quotes are easy to find if you want to look 'em up.)

I love that Steve takes failure so seriously. Even personally. I also appreciate that Apple never claimed that Apple TV was anything more than it was. But Apple continued to sell at least one product that they said was incomplete, and one that the CEO considered pathetic. If iCloud wasn't ready yet, my guess is that they'd still be selling MobileMe.

I'm not always inclined to a let a company's opinion of their products stand as the last word, but here, I will. I'm not saying that they're evil or cynical. They're not. They're just a company. As the thread says, just another observation.


Return to posts index

Paul Dickin
Re: Just another observation - Apple TV, a hobby?
on Jul 22, 2011 at 9:22:56 am

[Tim Wilson] "...let Apple take the floor."
Hi
That's a good call.
Assess what Steve Jobs and Apple have actually told us, rather than the clamour round here. ;-)

Just for the record I think Steve Jobs' issue with MobileMe was the rollout - people losing their .mac email archives etc - rather than the actual service.

[Tim Wilson] "Apple TV - may not be a bad product, but maybe barely a product at all yet... As late as 2009, Tim Cook said... let me be clear, we still consider this a hobby."
They "only" sold... 820,000 in Q2 11 alone! Don't have the Q3 number yet)...but not bad for a product that people have been told repeatedly isn't that important yet. "


What is it that Apple is leading up to with Apple TV?
Last night I was reading the Colorsync thread in this forum, and Philip Hodgett's blog:

"I think it’s pretty clear that Apple’s solution for monitoring is on a computer monitor that has been calibrated with ColorSync. I’m saying that there is no architectural provision for video out. Period. FCP X is the way it was conceived and will continue.
A colorsync calibrated monitor – calibrated to Rec 709 – is Apple’s solution I believe. The comment from Matrox I believe is definitive. There is no broadcast output, (and there never will be) because there’s no need when you can calibrate the monitor you’re working on to whatever colorspace/colorsync profile you want to work in. If the calibration is accurate, it’s as accurate as a calibrated external broadcast monitor."


Reading that I had an insight :-) not Apple TV, but Apple Television.
The small black box but within a much bigger one.

If FCP X is the start of the feeding chain (Apple don't make video cameras) and if FCP X only works at 'video' frame sizes (NOT any old web or YouTube sizes) and as Apple aren't in the least bit interested in the old HD-SDI/FSI monitoring workflow....

...then once the Cloud is up there empowering iTunes then a fully-fledged Apple branded Television might make sense. Fully calibrated, with colorsync built-in, and optical flow scaling and frame-rate optimisation so anything from the iTunes video store (or anything from YouTube or Vimeo - TVs have ethernet) will look absolutely (you guessed it!) 'awesome'....
[branding] "Television as you've never seen it before!" [/branding] (OK I'll never be an ad copy writer :-( )

Steve Jobs (in 2008):
"Blu-ray is just a bag of hurt. It's great to watch the movies, but the licensing of the tech is so complex, we're waiting till things settle down and Blu-ray takes off in the marketplace." Phil chimed in with "We have the best HD movie and TV options in iTunes."

Its not just Blu-Ray licensing - adding the DRM to the core of the OS kernal - that is so complex. The whole process of licensing 'content' for iTunes seems to be an ongoing 'bag of hurt'.

Steve Jobs (WWDC 2011 ) "The truth is in the cloud!"

One of the functions of iCloud may well be as a aggregator of content for distrubution (=monetising) by iTunes. Content from enthusiasts, semi-professionals and professionals - individuals and production businesses. Well enough made for people to want to watch...

Steve Jobs (2008}:
"Apple’s Pro business is thriving and it is not for sale. Period. Steve.”
Final Cut, and Logic (or its successor) are crucial to this independent content-production channel, one that maybe can lessen Apple's 'bag-of-hurt' dependency on existing souces of high-fascination entertainment for iTunes.

Steve Jobs (2005):
"No one wants to die... Death is very likely the single best invention of Life. It is Life's change agent. It clears out the old to make way for the new.... someday not too long from now, you will gradually become the old and be cleared away. Sorry to be so dramatic, but it is quite true.

...time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life. Don't be trapped by dogma — which is living with the results of other people's thinking. Don't let the noise of others' opinions drown out your own inner voice. And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition. They somehow already know what you truly want to become. Everything else is secondary."


Apple's path has diverged from the FCP 1-7 vector, Diverged from being aligned to high-end post-production needs.

Apple (in a FAQ page, several days after 21/6/2011):
"Can I import projects from Final Cut Pro 7 into Final Cut Pro X? etc etc etc."

Unless Apple mention things specifically in this page I don't think it will happen.
This page is I suspect 'the whole truth'.
Multicam will come in a new version, and the other listed developments, but for the rest?

When Philip Hodgetts writes:
"FCP X is the way it was conceived and will continue... I’m saying that there is no architectural provision for...
he's reporting what he has found, and what he has been told by those who know who he's communicated with.

From the blog:
Eric St-Martin: "I think that all third party hardware will be abstracted by AVFoundations. Thus, FCP would never have drivers to address specific output cards, AVFoundation would take care of that. It would make sense to do it that way since it would make the I/O card available to any application. Then FCP or other app would only have to open a stream to AVFoundations to output...
Reply by Philip:
While that’s possible, it would require the application to write the hooks for AV Foundation to hook into. It appears they are simply not there, so no matter what AV Foundation might want to do, Final Cut Pro X isn’t going to cooperate..."


So while there will be things that third parties WILL be able to do - write Motion templates to give FCP X functionality for instance - there will be lots of stuff that FCP X will never do - "dogma... to be cleared away" - that broadcast post-production workflows need today.

Apple is headed in a different direction.
That makes some sense to me.
Myself, these days, I view much more on the BBC's iPlayer (Catchup for other channels) and YouTube/Vimeo than I watch on sit-down-and-watch TV.

/[Just an obsevation.]
12/4/2011-21/6/2011 marketingwise Apple 'blew it' :-(



Return to posts index

Craig Seeman
Re: Just another observation - Apple TV, a hobby?
on Jul 22, 2011 at 11:05:52 am

In short, Apple is setting a new course.
Randy Ubilos said this is the next 10 years.
Personally I think they'll be right in the long run. It will be painful in the short run.
Some people keep thinking Apple has become a "consumer" company.
I think Apple has become a media company. They are all about content creation and distribution . . . as a means to sell hardware.



Return to posts index

Tony Brittan
Re: Just another observation
on Jul 22, 2011 at 11:27:19 am

Thing is...Apple TV was great! Talking about the original. I use one for client previews and expos and it is perfect. The public wasn't ready...Apple was ahead of it's time. MobileMe...again, GREAT. I use it every day. I'm PO'd about the EOL of that. My clients download finished projects from my iDisk and even upload material to me when I need it using my public fielder and a login. I even deliver for broadcast using iDisk! My website is hosted through MobileMe using iWeb. Yea, it doesn't suck.

My 2 cents.


Return to posts index

Chris Kenny
Re: Just another observation
on Jul 22, 2011 at 2:32:53 pm

Apple TV and MobileMe sort of demonstrate my point. They haven't been very large successes (by the standards of a company Apple's size), and Apple itself seems to have a realistic view of these products. This runs contrary to the theory that Apple can ship bad products and make them hugely successful via marketing. The current Apple TV isn't even all that bad, it's just sort of "meh"... and it has sales to match.

Apple's really big successes are driven by outstanding products. Apple's marketing, while effective, isn't mind control, and in fact most of Apple's marketing material just explains/shows how the products work -- if that marketing is so effective, it's because of the products, not because of some trickery.

It is also true that Apple is a fairly "hip" brand these days, but they got there by valuing design in a way that was alien to the rest of the industry (think back to 1998, when the first iMac shipped; prior to that the big new design trend in computing was that you could now buy a tower in black rather than beige), not running ads telling people they were hip.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2017 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]