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COW Forums : Apple Final Cut Pro X Debates

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John Pale
Name this Forum
on Jul 15, 2011 at 3:34:44 pm

Lately I've begun to feel this is the oddest forum on the Cow. What other product has one forum to address user issues and techniques and another...it's main forum actually...to rant, argue and joke about its very existence?

Maybe to avoid any confusion, we should rename this forum...

How about "FCP X Thunderdome - Chris and Craig Vs. the World" ?

Anybody got anything better?


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Matt Callac
Re: Name this Forum
on Jul 15, 2011 at 3:41:00 pm

FCPX Echo Chamber. Seems like the same voices saying the same things over and over. And the people saying all the things seem unable to see the validity of any point but their own.

-mattyc


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Name this Forum
on Jul 15, 2011 at 3:43:38 pm

there are exceptions - simon ubsdell for instance - he says a pretty wide variety of sane things.

For myself, I could bottle the froth coming out of my mouth.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Matt Callac
Re: Name this Forum
on Jul 15, 2011 at 3:51:45 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] " there are exceptions - simon ubsdell for instance - he says a pretty wide variety of sane things."

Very true. I'd put Walter Soyka and even Bill Davis in that category too, as well as some others.


-mattyc


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Name this Forum
on Jul 15, 2011 at 3:55:44 pm

actually lets not forget david lawrence - i'm pretty keenly awaiting his next brain dump.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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David Battistella
Re: Name this Forum
on Jul 15, 2011 at 3:57:52 pm

FCP X - VENT ?

This might currently be the highest noise to signal rating on the COW at present.

:)
Very entertaining. I've had a lo of LOL's reading stuff here and seeing teh video's being posted.


david

______________________________
The shortest answer is doing.
Lord Herbert



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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Name this Forum
on Jul 15, 2011 at 4:02:44 pm

it needs a logo.

http://static.arstechnica.net/assets/2011/07/final-cut-x-shattered-4e1d21c-...


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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David Battistella
Re: Name this Forum
on Jul 15, 2011 at 5:19:22 pm

YET another LOL.

That could be the logo for sure.

David

______________________________
The shortest answer is doing.
Lord Herbert



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Chris Conlee
Re: Name this Forum
on Jul 15, 2011 at 7:46:12 pm

Yeah, I'm an Avid guy who only dabbles in FCP, but I've enjoyed reading some of the posts here (and not in a mean-spirited way, I know it sucks to have your favorite tool bite the dust...)

Chris


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Gary Hazen
Re: Name this Forum
on Jul 15, 2011 at 4:15:11 pm

Monty Python and the Holy FCPX

Inglorious Editors

2011: An Apple Odyssey

Back to the Future

Toy Story


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Matt Callac
Re: Name this Forum
on Jul 15, 2011 at 4:19:00 pm

[Gary Hazen] "Monty Python and the Holy FCPX

Inglorious Editors

2011: An Apple Odyssey

Back to the Future

Toy Story"


One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest

American History FCPX

3 Editors and a Baby

Tombstone


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Craig Seeman
Re: Name this Forum
on Jul 15, 2011 at 4:22:39 pm

[John Pale] "How about "FCP X Thunderdome - Chris and Craig Vs. the World" ?"

It's ironic but, while at the Tekserve event (see above post) I was talking to a few people about the COW and cast this forum in a similar light. I said there seemed to be about 6 of us who really think FCPX is worth watching the development.

It's also interesting that there was probably close to 500 people at a place known locally as a VAR who were interested enough to attend rather than be dismissive. I think there's a very large base of professionals who are watching (and learning) FCPX very closely.



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John Pale
Re: Name this Forum
on Jul 15, 2011 at 6:35:20 pm

Hey Craig,
Didn't realize you were in NYC too.

I finally dove in and started to try FCPX on a real, but very simple and low pressure project.

I'm finding I like the metadata approach to organization ... Way more powerful than the traditional project/bin structure. I really like the handling of DSLR footage and double system sound. Compound clips are also very cool. Not totally sold on the magnetic timeline and the storyline metaphor. I keep finding it's more complicated to do basic stuff..but maybe I need more time for my brain to absorb it.

There is a lot missing from this that I would definitely need in anything more than the simple web video I am working on. And I am not just talking about the obvious, like multicam or OMF/AAF.

Overall, it seems very unstable too. I had about 20 crashes yesterday on a very simple project without effects.

In my book, it's a very early beta. I don't thnk it should have been released to paying customers in it's present
state. It has great potential, but are there enough people out there who are going to learn and use it? apple has so damaged it's reputation, that I don't see FCPX getting a significant user base built for many years.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Name this Forum
on Jul 15, 2011 at 7:00:58 pm

[John Pale] "There is a lot missing from this that I would definitely need in anything more than the simple web video I am working on. And I am not just talking about the obvious, like multicam or OMF/AAF.

Overall, it seems very unstable too. I had about 20 crashes yesterday on a very simple project without effects.

In my book, it's a very early beta. I don't thnk it should have been released to paying customers in it's present
state. It has great potential, but are there enough people out there who are going to learn and use it?"


The timeline is probably the hardest thing to grasp. Once you understand the importance of the relationships it's very flexible and powerful. It reminds me of node based compositing. It would be very alien to those who are track/layer based. The connection can be very complex and quite useful when one needs to move things around in time. That the connection points themselves can be moved without moving the clips is also very interesting.

I've only had a couple of crashes although I've experienced the beach ball a number of times and several other bugs.

See my post about the Tekserve event and Evan Schachtman in an above thread. He absolutely sees FCPX as very powerful. He's willing to wait a year. About 500 people registered for the event. Tekserve said it was the most heavily attended event they ever had and apparently this included Apple product launches. Even if you look in the App Store about 40% of the reviews are 4 or 5 stars. There's a very large base already playing with it, even though I doubt most are using it for paid work as of yet.

FCPX is seriously feature incomplete. An example is the number of steps it takes to do an audio only crossfade. That's not a fail though. It just means there's a lot more work to be done. I'd almost call it alpha rather than beta. Beta is feature complete and being tested. Alpha is not feature complete.

Alas, Apple's marketing is another story. In every past case Apple had a long transition such as OS9 to OSX and PPC to Intel. Why they didn't follow their past successful patterns in introducing new technology is a "wonder" to say the least.



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Keith Koby
Re: Name this Forum
on Jul 15, 2011 at 11:13:29 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Alas, Apple's marketing is another story. In every past case Apple had a long transition such as OS9 to OSX and PPC to Intel. Why they didn't follow their past successful patterns in introducing new technology is a "wonder" to say the least."

Yes, launching a new product without the pro-apps marketing team (evangelists) has proven bad. Those guys are all off doing other things nowadays. I don't recall the reaction to FCServer around here, but I feel, in general, it would've been much worse without their "tour" they did that year to educate.

It definitely feels as if someone was asleep at the wheel when they put this up on the app store, before lion, before being completely baked, as evan pointed out last night.

That said, there are a handful of educated people here and others in the community here in NY (obviously including Evan) who have studied the app and are impressed with the foundation. Personally I trust my eyes and the educated opinions that i've seen/heard, way more than the copy and paste imovie pro critiques here in this forum.

That reminds me, it wasn't the first time that I heard this little nugget; Evan mentioned last night that imovie and FCP X share no code base. FCP X was written from the ground up and it processes video in a totally different way. They do have a few similar features like magnetic timeline and scrubbing but they are really completely different beasts.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Name this Forum
on Jul 16, 2011 at 12:04:59 am

One of the questions I asked Evan was his thoughts about any further attempt by Apple to do FCPX marketing. He thought they wouldn't.

I had heard elsewhere from someone who had talked to people at Apple that there's some chance they may do some sort of road show but that person wasn't that certain to what extent that effort would materialize with any force.

Some odd observations was that Apple didn't do their usual home page feature when it was released. Others have noted that you wont see it (yet at least) on any computer in an Apple Store and noted I didn't see it on a Tekserve display computer either.

If Apple really thought this was a "prosumer" step up from iMovie, I think it would get a bigger marketing push. If they think it's a professional app still under development it better explains why Apple is going to quietly move this forward, advancing the feature set.

iMovie is Quicktime based and FCPX is AV Foundation based so, beyond some partial GUI similarity, it's not the same code base at all.

It's interesting that there are so many sane voices who have dug into the software and see significant merit despite it's feature immaturity and others who seem to be vested in ridiculing the software. Regardless of one's sentiment as well all have our tool preferences, it seems they don't handle change very well. That kind of thinking is not good business whether a facility, mom and pop, freelancer.



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Geoff Dills
Re: Name this Forum
on Jul 16, 2011 at 12:26:19 am

[Craig Seeman] "others who seem to be vested in ridiculing the software."

And quite a few of those are the faces I see at the top of the page. Gentlemen, with all due respect cause I know how badly you must feel, but how much more needs to be said? We all get it. It's iMovie. It sucks. Apple blew it. Can we move along now?

Best,
Geoff


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Craig Seeman
Re: Name this Forum
on Jul 16, 2011 at 12:44:10 am

That so many spend so much time ridiculing speaks to an emotional mindset.

The rest of us are spending time analyzing the program and how functions impact and influence the creative process.

Some people want to learn how it works functionally. Others want to grasp the whys behind the design which admittedly cause one to take a new look at approaches.

There are others though who might be better served spending their time learning Avid or Premiere if that's their preference. There's nothing constructive beyond maybe personal therapy in complaining.

Maybe in some sense I have a different definition of professional than others. It's not even about making money or business. A professional is one who is committed to professing who they are in what one does. We are artists and craftspeople who chose to do this for a living because . . . it is something within us that got us here rather than being accountants or stock brokers, etc. I use the tools that will best achieve that end. I don't use the tools that don't serve me.

There is a lot going on here that I, personally would not describe as professional. They are some that are more greatly vested in complaining about another's tools. To me, that's not professional at all.

As crafstpeople and creatives, certainly we may analyze and critique the tools but the focus is ultimately how to best use them or find the tools that best suits us individually. That's not what I'm seeing in the behavior of many of the posts here. Sorry if my opinion offends some. The COW should be a place where professional can share thoughts, mentor some, inspire others, make as better craftspeople . . . because it is what we profess.



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Robert Brown
Re: Name this Forum
on Jul 15, 2011 at 10:08:10 pm

Mad Mac users Beyond the Thunderdome

FCPX Men

"X" Files



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Rick Lang
Re: Name this Forum
on Jul 15, 2011 at 4:36:56 pm

The current forum is a mix of valuable and questionable content (my opinion of course) so it’s worth reading as is. Would be considerate if there was a forum that was only used for trash talking and the exploration of non-Apple alternatives to FCP X. I wonder if the AVID and Adobe forums are full of posts about people dumping on AVID and Adobe as they jump to Apple that isn’t afraid to “think different?” I know there’s lots missing at this time, but you know I’m only referring to the things that are different and better!

Then those who have made up their minds that FCP X is worthless can enjoy kudos from their peers and those who think it’s worthwhile can save a lot of time by ignoring the forum. If you are open-minded of course you’ll continue to read it.

My vote is the rude FCP X Trash Talk or the gentile FCP X Feedback but these should be in addition to a general FCP X Forum for thoughtful things that are not suitable for the superb FCP X Techniques.

Rick Lang

iMac 27” 2.8GHz i7 16GB


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: Name this Forum
on Jul 15, 2011 at 7:29:38 pm

@ rick lang, well, we're all here - we're all, lets say interested by what has happened with FCPX, we all have equal voices, and as long as we keep it clean and vaugely sane, nobody gets to say what anyone else should talk about within the bounds of FCPX. Its a forum for FCPX. There is plenty to talk/vent/rant/froth/rage/defend/analyse/question about with regard to FCPX.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Robert Brown
Re: Name this Forum
on Jul 15, 2011 at 10:12:55 pm

Apple deserved a little dumping on. And I'm sure Avid got it's share in around '04 when FCP really started coming on strong and Avid was out to lunch. It's already died down a bit but I have found the thing pretty entertaining.



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Rick Lang
Re: Name this Forum
on Jul 15, 2011 at 11:29:25 pm

[Rick Lang] "My vote is the rude FCP X Trash Talk or the gentile FCP X Feedback but these should be in addition to a general FCP X Forum for thoughtful things that are not suitable for the superb FCP X Techniques."

Apologies, I meant to say “genteel”, not “gentile!"

Rick Lang

iMac 27” 2.8GHz i7 16GB


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Alan Okey
Re: Name this Forum
on Jul 15, 2011 at 6:13:27 pm

iBitch.


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TImothy Auld
Re: Name this Forum
on Jul 15, 2011 at 6:24:26 pm

FCP X: The Wrath of Ubillos

bigpine


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Dan Stewart
Re: Name this Forum
on Jul 15, 2011 at 6:30:06 pm

I Know What you Did Last Summer



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Geoff Dills
Re: Name this Forum
on Jul 15, 2011 at 6:32:23 pm

Hunter would like this one....

Final X Fear and Loathing

Best,
Geoff


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Gustavo Bermudas
Re: Name this Forum
on Jul 15, 2011 at 6:35:21 pm

Final Dud Pro


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Dan Stewart
Re: Name this Forum
on Jul 15, 2011 at 6:58:34 pm

Fear X



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Matt Callac
Re: Name this Forum
on Jul 15, 2011 at 8:00:13 pm

[Alan Okey] "iBitch."

iBitch
For the Win.

-mattyc


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Sean Thomas
Re: Name this Forum
on Jul 15, 2011 at 7:02:21 pm

I thought this was already decided on day one:

iMovie Pro


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Dan Stewart
Re: Name this Forum
on Jul 15, 2011 at 7:37:46 pm

Seriously I agree with Sean. We don't have an imovie forum and they share a great deal.

How about iMovie/FCPX ?



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Sean Thomas
Re: Name this Forum
on Jul 15, 2011 at 11:30:17 pm

One more thing I've learned. We need two FCP X forums:

1. Elite/Pro - this forum won't be used becuase pros don't/won't/can't use FCP X. It should redirect to the Adobe Premiere forum where all the Pro's hang out.
2. Amature - obviously the only people who use FCP X


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Pierre Jasmin
Re: Name this Forum
on Jul 15, 2011 at 11:33:15 pm

This forum I bet is good for the cow ratings
Maybe it deserves it's own logo
Something like http://herrklein.com/images/abductionlamp_cow.jpg
except replace the green aliens by sockpuppets
(type sockpuppet in google search for inspiration)
and make the ship a bit more shaped like an apple...

--



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Bill Davis
Re: Name this Forum
on Jul 16, 2011 at 6:20:08 am

Don't know why this sprang to mind...


but some years back I was video taping a group counseling session dealing with a popular "youth in crisis" discussion for parents. - and one of the therapists posed the classic question to the assembled group of parents: "what's the opposite of love" - of course half a dozen voices popped up instantly with the expected answer: "hate" - only to draw a patiently waiting response from the group leader. Then a quiet voice in the group said the word that finally caused the therapist to smile.

"indifference"

In relationships, love and hate are poles that BOTH demonstrate exceptional engagement.

In that respect, FCP-X is nowhere more successful than right here in this Cow forum. And every voice that tears it down OR pumps it up - does nothing more or less than build its' stature.

That EVERYONE is obsessing about what it is and isn't means it's clearly skyrocketed to the kind of industry cultural mind-share that means it has already become central to the entire modern editing discussion in a way that no other software program EVER has.

Like it or don't - feel Apple was right or wrong with their process - it's another inarguably HUGE home run in the business battle to create an undeniably "top of mind" brand identity.

And lest you think that it in any way hurts the brand that people are saying "negative" things about it - remember that both sinners AND saints are culturally singular for their distance from the disinterested norm - NOT for which pole they occupy in their singularity.

For what it's worth.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Conner


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