FORUMS: list search recent posts

apple reinvents the pen and cave painting!

COW Forums : Apple Final Cut Pro X Debates

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
kim krause
apple reinvents the pen and cave painting!
on Jul 15, 2011 at 9:59:45 am

i wish people would stop bitching about apple abandoning us. we still have the tools we have always used. no one is forcing you to this new way of working. much like the ballpoint pen revolutionized the way we write, not everyone was keen to replace their pen and ink pens. photoshop never killed the photographic industry. synthesizers never replaced a real orchestra. these are just tools...we are the craftsmen and it is up to us to use the tools given to us in order to produce our craft. those who don't adapt to a new way of working are gonna get left behind, regardless of their previous skills or reputation. in the end it's all about change, forcing us to think differently and try new things. we all know that fcpx isnt fcp....so what, then dont use it! the early masters only used the tools they had available and all came up with different styles. we live in an age where the tools are empowering us to do even greater things. do you really want to go back to scribbling with charcoal and plant pigment on a cave wall! let's just evolve already!


Return to posts index

TImothy Auld
Re: apple reinvents the pen and cave painting!
on Jul 15, 2011 at 11:11:31 am

Ball point pens work in essentially the same manner that feather quill pens did. Or charcoal on
a cave wall, for that matter.

bigpine


Return to posts index

kim krause
Re: apple reinvents the pen and cave painting!
on Jul 15, 2011 at 11:55:15 am

exactly my point....they all do basically the same thing, so make your choice based on what your comfortable with...if you wanna use a quill and ink, go for it, but dont expect to get that book out anytime soon....


Return to posts index


TImothy Auld
Re: apple reinvents the pen and cave painting!
on Jul 15, 2011 at 12:07:03 pm

And my point is, in all the various incarnations of writing instruments over the course of history, how one
operates those instruments has not changed. The tip was not moved to the side, nor has there been a limitation of the types of media on which you can write.

bigpine


Return to posts index

kim krause
Re: apple reinvents the pen and cave painting!
on Jul 15, 2011 at 12:40:04 pm

but over time all the old tools were replaced by more efficient, cheaper and simpler tools...look at the ball point pen...the ink is already inside so you dont have to dip into the well all the time. and now you dont even need a pen or paper because you can just write on a computer or iphone or ipad screen, then send it to everyone in seconds...no waiting for ink to dry or typesetters to layout your book or postal system to ship it...it's called evolution and it changes the way we work......i for one cant wait to see fcp x on an ipad in all its glory...then we will really have something that will change lives! i can still remember the first time i sowed an avid edtotr with his huge system and interfaces and beta machines how a simple fire wire enabled laptop and a dv tape could change his life...he scoffed, telling me it would never catch on because it wasnt professional and only cost a fraction of a "real" edit system so it must not be anygood...i watched over the next few years as his clients all left him for the new guy with the super quick and cheap fcp suite. i remember he even told me that mini dv would never replace beta sp and 3/4 inch umatic tapes...that was the "professionals choice" of course a few years passed and he sold all his old expensive analog gear and old beat up tape machines and binned his aging mac for a shiny new system and fcp version 3. he was able to open 3 edit suites with the same amount of money he had spent on just room 2 years earlier...as a result he now could turn out 3 times as much work and could wean himself off the post houses and finish his projects on line himself. i did the same thing when i saw that it was now possible to grade in a somewhat professional manner from home.....i havent looked at a roll of film since and that was 5 years ago..


Return to posts index

TImothy Auld
Re: apple reinvents the pen and cave painting!
on Jul 15, 2011 at 1:07:43 pm

I have an ipad and it's fun and handy for some things, but does not increase my productivity one bit.
And there is most certainly no way I could edit and deliver the kinds of projects on which I work with
an ipad. I am all for things being easier and faster, but in my world I cannot deliver what I need to
with FCP X. And so I will take your original advice and not use it. Who knows? In a few years it might
be all the rage. I am not against learning new things. In fact one of the things that appeals to me
about editing is you are constantly being forced to solve new problems in different ways. After years
of working on Avid, I bought and learned FCP because I saw a lot of work going there. I don't see that
happening with FCP X anytime soon.

bigpine


Return to posts index


Chris Harlan
Re: apple reinvents the pen and cave painting!
on Jul 15, 2011 at 8:09:08 pm

"more efficient,"

Ah, Kim; that's the crux. FCPX isn't more efficient for me. To use your analogy, It's like Apple took my beautiful calligraphy set and replaced it with a stick and a sandbox.

It is not only less efficient in its current state, it is unusable. Even when/if they make the promised improvements, it will only improve for me to the level of chard stick and paper.

I can certainly see how FCPX might be useful for some people, and I don't begrudge its existence, other than it has killed off my favorite tool. Sure, I've got many options, and I'm following up on them. In fact, the alternatives are great. And, yes, for the time being I can still use FCS3. I'm doing that today. I'm certainly doing all I need to do to make my adjustments. That doesn't mean I'm pleased about it, or that I'm not mad at Apple for disemboweling what I considered to be the most useful tool on the market for my particular niche.


Return to posts index

Bill Davis
Re: apple reinvents the pen and cave painting!
on Jul 16, 2011 at 6:21:58 am

Obviously you've never tried to write on a dry erase board with a piece of chalk.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Conner


Return to posts index

Aindreas Gallagher
Re: apple reinvents the pen and cave painting!
on Jul 15, 2011 at 2:10:40 pm

[kim krause] "photoshop never killed the photographic industry."

you will also note that it never turned into a dayglo brain damaged version of itself overnight either, where layers became story picture holes, and when you moved a layer all the other layers moved around like morons, or when you put one layer on top of another layer photoshop X auto linked them, unless you turned the layer above into a looking glass side window pane, then it animated growing a new window out the side of the layers tab, but it wasn't layers anymore remember, they are a story picture holes and there's really only one story picture hole, so there's no longer any numbering system for the layers, and sadly you cant send files to any print house now, or indeed to any of the people you used to send your material to in the printing ecosystem, but adobe are pretty sure that someone is going to figure out how photoshop X should do that, but it isn't going to be adobe because they're no longer bothered with any of that as of midnight the night before when they decided they couldn't be bothered at all with any of that boring stuff - that would also explain why they killed indesign, illustrator and dreamweaver because they weren't important going forward - maybe important for you - but not important for adobe, because what adobe really secretly loves to do is kill software the way people drown cats in rivers in bags with stones.


the comparison to photoshop is not apt.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


Return to posts index


John Pale
Re: apple reinvents the pen and cave painting!
on Jul 15, 2011 at 3:19:03 pm

Just when I was starting to tire of all the ranting here, you wrote an absolute classic Aindreas.

I don't always agree with you, but damn that was f$&"ing brilliant.


Return to posts index

Tim Kolb
Re: apple reinvents the pen and cave painting!
on Jul 15, 2011 at 7:02:00 pm

This is not the first comparison I've seen justifying the FCPX re-posture using Photoshop as an example...

Both were completely non-applicable.

What's with that?

TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,

Adobe Certified Instructor


Return to posts index

Bill Davis
Re: apple reinvents the pen and cave painting!
on Jul 16, 2011 at 10:31:25 pm

Tim,

It's not a comparison of FCP-X and Photoshop itself.

It's a comparison to the introduction and development PATHS that each took. (but I guess that's WAY too complex an idea for some here to grasp.)

Those of us who truly had to struggle with adopting and then waiting months, or even years, for our early software to mature into robust professional tools - are TRYING to pass along the hard won wisdom that 1st gen software has traditionally and TYPICALLY been a process of trial, revision, and then success or failure as maturity is reached.

Today, the squalling children want it both PERFECT and RIGHT NOW. (and as a father, I understand that as well as most.) But it's not how large strides in technological evolution works and it will never be.

Apple, more than others has proved this over and over and over again. When you see where the market might move - you go there EARLY. You don't wait until everyone is already there before you set up your play.

Every great tool you use today is the result of the SAME EXACT PROCESS. Introduction, early adopters, refinement, re-introduction, base growth, and evolution. Some software dies before ever maturing. Other BECOMES the standard after years of development.

That evolution is precisely and exactly true of Photoshop - and of Final Cut Pro.

The POINT was that version 1 of ALL THREE were underpowered, feature poor, and laughable as to their regard by the working professionals of the time.

Two of those went on to dominate their respective industries and became the market leaders.

The jury is still very much out on FCP-X. But I still think it's useful to look back and understand how today's dominant tools were every bit as much reviled as FCP-X when they were starting out.

Simple as that.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Conner


Return to posts index


Tim Kolb
Re: apple reinvents the pen and cave painting!
on Jul 17, 2011 at 2:10:29 am

[Bill Davis] "The POINT was that version 1 of ALL THREE were underpowered, feature poor, and laughable as to their regard by the working professionals of the time. "

But this argument implies that Apple hasn't had a software product in that space for a decade and had no users waiting for a product they'd invested HEAVILY in to extend like the competitive products have... Your implication is that they're inventing FCP v1 for the first time.

They're not.

Adobe never promised Photoshop v10 users something great was coming...then released Photoshop Elements v1 promising that they'll get some missing features put back in there eventually...while the earlier version of Photoshop is removed from the market while the new "think different and stop whining" Photoshop Elements isn't even able to load existing Photoshop documents...but Corel does no problem.

"Hey Photoshop v1 didn't have many features when it came out either, so printing industry and ad agencies everywhere that created an entire set of jobs and industry around Photoshop, that can no longer prepare anything for pre-press (who uses paper anymore?) ...shut your cake holes.

Yeah... that makes lots of sense. However...THAT's more of a parallel to the FCP vs FCPX scenario than just looking at version 1 of every other piece of software that started as version 1.

Even when Adobe rewrote Premiere from the ground up and tacked "Pro" on the end in 2003, existing users were still given an upgrade path...and the later version of the software, even though quite different, could load legacy version projects, as it does to this day.

It's simply not comparable. Apple's competitor is the only company that makes a current product that will load it's own existing professional customer's legacy projects...it's absurd and it shows that Apple has nothing approaching reciprocal loyalty to what the professional post production market has shown Apple.

I don't think there is a doubt that Apple once again got in the time machine and jumped ahead, but this time they cut off the very user group that they have been holding up as the user base they dominate vs Adobe and Avid in their messaging.

They made a smart move for Apple long-term. I expect that bleeding a point a day of their higher end professional market share is something they anticipated and as the drive is on to upgrade iMovie users....they're simply focused elsewhere.

TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,

Adobe Certified Instructor


Return to posts index

kim krause
Re: apple reinvents the pen and cave painting!
on Jul 15, 2011 at 7:20:37 pm

you missed my point...i was in no way comparing photoshop to fcp or any other program. i was simply stating that in the good old days before there was photoshop, people created images in a different manner and with different skills and techniques...(real photo techniques done in the darkroom like dodging and burning and cross processing and real airbrushing and all kinds of other imaging methods) photoshop brought these creative tools to the masses in much the same way fcpx is doing for video.....love it or hate it, it is the way forward and anyone who doesn't want to change will soon be left out.....just check out the new version of avid composer..the thing looks exactly like fcpx...right down to the newly designed controls and dark grey backgrounds....i totally agree that fcpx is not the best choice right now for the pros and maybe thats a good thing...we can still keep using our old outdated software...but to listen to the pros carry on about having to do things different is like listening to some grumpy old man who is so set in his ways that he refuses to change.....i never thought that i would see the decline in film productions during my 35+ years as a telecine op/colorist, but i'm sure grateful that i made the switch when i did.....if i hadn't i'd be sitting outside starbucks with my empty cup begging for quarters, but instead i embraced the new way of doing things and have managed to carve out a brand new and exciting career for myself...and thats the real power! you should always be open to change! now everyone stop bitching and get some work done or retire and leave it to the next wave of brilliant minds to take over!


Return to posts index

TImothy Auld
Re: apple reinvents the pen and cave painting!
on Jul 15, 2011 at 7:42:23 pm

There is a certain amount of grumbling by folks who don't want change. There is also a good
deal of legitimate concern from people who question where FCP is going and what that means
to them from a business standpoint. I applaud you carving out your own niche. I inform you that
your assertion that folks who don't agree with your viewpoint should "retire and leave it to the next
wave of brilliant minds" is arrogant and offensive.

bigpine


Return to posts index


kim krause
Re: apple reinvents the pen and cave painting!
on Jul 15, 2011 at 8:39:03 pm

timothy, i never said i wanted anyone to agree with me....my viewpoint is just that..MINE.....i merely suggest if you have nothing better to do than bitch then maybe you should consider leaving the industry...i mean who wants to work in a job that makes them miserable...maybe the ones bitching have reached their sell by date and should really look at alternatives....i speak from my own experience because i was miserable in my job the last few years. i desperately wanted the company to move in another direction and embrace the new digital world. i thought that a dedicated film scanner with a state of the art grading system was the way of the future for film transfer and a new way to approach post production. when the company i worked for bough a brand new spirit datacine with and old davince that wouldnt even do HD, i threw my hands up in disbelief and walked out the door.....guess what, today that company is kicking its ass that it didnt listen to me...if you look around when was the last time anyone bought a new telecine. that's old school and if you dont believe me, call up rank cintel and ask them when last they sold a telecine ...i'll say it again...it's all about evolving...a new way of looking at things...there is no room for the old farts that are set in their ways..they are the dinosaurs of the post industry...period! i can say this because i am an old fart but i can at least adapt!


Return to posts index

TImothy Auld
Re: apple reinvents the pen and cave painting!
on Jul 15, 2011 at 9:04:52 pm

If you do not think the phrase "now everyone stop bitching, get some work done, or retire and let the new brilliant minds take over" is indicative of your complete intolerance for other viewpoints then I would have to guess your grasp on our language is a bit loose.

bigpine


Return to posts index

kim krause
Re: apple reinvents the pen and cave painting!
on Jul 15, 2011 at 10:14:24 pm

and i suppose your intolerance of my opinion is more valid...maybe i should have said "just shut your trap"


Return to posts index

TImothy Auld
Re: apple reinvents the pen and cave painting!
on Jul 15, 2011 at 10:57:37 pm

I do no object to your having an opinion. If fact I agree that one must change or stagnate. I simply dislike the offensive ways in which you seem compelled to express yourself.

bigpine


Return to posts index

kim krause
Re: apple reinvents the pen and cave painting!
on Jul 16, 2011 at 7:05:42 am

sorry if i appear so outspoken but i just get so tired of all this doom and gloom...apple tried to make a product that would make the job of editting easier for more people. i have said many times that it might not be exactly what the "pros" would like but if people don't like it then don't buy it...move on and stop all this complaining and whining....there is too much negative energy going around here. we either can embrace the new way or stick to our tried and trusted ways or give up...those are the 3 options and there really isnt any other choice. if you dont like what apple has done to fcp then jump ship to avid or pp...thats what everyone did years ago when they all became fed up with avid and embraced fcp. back then fcp wasnt even close to fcpx now yet no one complained about it...they all jumped on board and years later it became and industry standard...i can remember when you had to be an engineer to edit on old 2 inch machines that cost 100's of thousands of dollars...and that was only ntsc resolution, now we have a tool that brings a whole edit suite in the palm of your hand in glorious hd quality...i would say that this is somewhat magical and really should be praised for what it is and not criticized for what it isnt! so lets all stop complaining and get back to doing what we do best with whatever tools we should decide to use....i think i'll go back to color correcting using and old box of crayons!


Return to posts index

TImothy Auld
Re: apple reinvents the pen and cave painting!
on Jul 16, 2011 at 1:01:47 pm

As long as you understand that this is a two-way street. If the posts here really become too
much for you to take, you are free to go to many other forums.

bigpine


Return to posts index

Aindreas Gallagher
Re: apple reinvents the pen and cave painting!
on Jul 15, 2011 at 9:46:42 pm

[kim krause] "i merely suggest if you have nothing better to do than bitch then maybe you should consider leaving the industry."

You're in no position to say anything like the above. It's an open forum. Kindly stop telling people to shut up or quit the business, it comes off as both pompous and crass.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


Return to posts index

Chris Harlan
Re: apple reinvents the pen and cave painting!
on Jul 15, 2011 at 8:13:12 pm

ROTFL

story picture holes, indeed.


Return to posts index

Bill Davis
Re: apple reinvents the pen and cave painting!
on Jul 16, 2011 at 6:56:05 am

Andreas,

I love your passion, but it's counterbalanced by your woeful grasp of how things were before you likely started playing the Photoshop game - For those of us who were around for it, let me tell you that in the beginning outputting Photoshop 1.0 work for professional use was an exercise in frustration that makes FCP-X feel like walking out of the desert only to be handed a bottle of Evian, a case of cold Carta Blanca, and a $1000 gift certificate redeemable at the local massage therapist/supermodel school.

I used to have to BEG local Linotronic operators to accept my early Photoshop files. It took 6, 7, 8 revs before I could get the 1.0 versions of the RIPS to put out a page with any reasonable grey-scale fidelity.

And god forbid you wanted to combine raster elements like photos with Postscript stuff!
Kearning pairs? You're joking. Font substitution? Every damn time.

It took patient YEARS to get that stuff sorted out into a consistently working model with the NEW standards.

I get that everyone has something that WORKS now. And that means there's way more resistance to the change. But tech IS a change or die world. Anyone who doesn't get this central reality is going to have big problems in the long run, IMO.

I don't know if using FCP 7 is some day going to feel like ordering up an 85 line screen halftone for a newspaper ad. But I suspect that it will. The question is how long will it take the industry to lurch forward the next big jump.

FWIW.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Conner


Return to posts index

Aindreas Gallagher
Re: apple reinvents the pen and cave painting!
on Jul 16, 2011 at 10:37:29 am

Bill, I adore your self regarding condescension, I'm PS 2.5 a growing. With regard to type I was always more concerned with H&Js in Quark. And really, there is nothing I love more than posts here that come off like a Monty python sketch of - when I were a lad and letraset were made of coal, let ye gather around and hear my wisdom - really, I love those posts. They are highly entertaining.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


Return to posts index

David Lawrence
Re: apple reinvents the pen and cave painting!
on Jul 18, 2011 at 5:15:17 am

pure win, Aindreas!

_______________________
David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl


Return to posts index

Sean Thomas
Re: apple reinvents the pen and cave painting!
on Jul 15, 2011 at 7:03:23 pm

Nice post Kim - another way of saying what I was thinking in the "Drama" posts.


Return to posts index

Jamie Franklin
Re: apple reinvents the pen and cave painting!
on Jul 15, 2011 at 8:10:07 pm

[Sean Thomas] "another way of saying what I was thinking in the "Drama" posts."

You were "thinking" in that post...? That's rich


Return to posts index

Jamie Franklin
Re: apple reinvents the pen and cave painting!
on Jul 15, 2011 at 8:21:48 pm

[kim krause] "i wish people would stop bitching about apple abandoning us."

I wish you people would stop calling the anger at the decision to end of life products many of us have invested thousands of dollars in without warning as "bitching"...you think an inadequate program with an inoperable timeline that makes no bones about breaking outside links is evolved? you think there is only half a story going on here....?

Maybe you don't want to address it. So you use pejoratives, bad analogies and tell us to "evolve"...like we're luddite dim witted neanderthals who refuse to embrace "change"...

Seriously, opinions vary and we can disagree on specifics, mismanagement, handling of the disingenuous marketing etc. But don't dare call pulling what I have built my profession around after years of trying to pull me into their products without warning or support "bitching" or I'm a cave man who doesn't want to learn to use a knife...

I've been using the knife just fine for over a decade, and instead of making it sharper or giving me a saw, they gave us a toothpick and yanked my knife away and said, you'll like this better...

I wish the stupid and ridonkulous analogies would end...

Bitching? The only "bitching" I see are the koolaide apologists who are bitching about people justifiably angry at Apples moves here


Return to posts index

Sean Thomas
Re: apple reinvents the pen and cave painting!
on Jul 15, 2011 at 8:45:48 pm

I must admit - this is an insightful post.

I guess if I had all of my eggs in one basket and the basket broke, I would be in an uproar too. I'm glad that I built on diversity.


Return to posts index

Jamie Franklin
Re: apple reinvents the pen and cave painting!
on Jul 15, 2011 at 8:50:29 pm

[Sean Thomas] "I guess if I had all of my eggs in one basket and the basket broke, I would be in an uproar too. I'm glad that I built on diversity."

Wasn't even a nice try. Give it up sparky. I may not have the patience left to engage your nonsense, but here at the Cow, you will find yourself very quickly, out of your league...


Return to posts index

Sean Thomas
Re: apple reinvents the pen and cave painting!
on Jul 15, 2011 at 9:03:39 pm

Yes - I am certainly out of my league in this Pro/Elite only forum.

What I have learned with all the FCP Drama is that some of YOUR lives have been completely turned upside down and traumatized by the release of FCP X. The vile hatred, disgust, and insults against Apple and anyone who says calm down, don't complain, move forward, proves this.

I am certainly glad my life did not revolve around FCP 8.


Return to posts index

Jamie Franklin
Re: apple reinvents the pen and cave painting!
on Jul 15, 2011 at 11:37:32 pm

You just have it all figured out don't you...

But doubtful. You have displayed a gross lack of comprehension and stepped into this forum acting like a child condemning those for actions and DRAMA you yourself have only brought.

Those willing to engage with your trite nonsense will wane. You won't find success here, or outside of this forum with your pitiful loathsome attitude...despite your "diversity"...

Being a jerk isn't diverse. Like X, you will be alone in your sandbox


Return to posts index

Brent Dunn
Re: apple reinvents the pen and cave painting!
on Jul 16, 2011 at 5:08:46 am

Still using Final Cut 6. Works great, meets my needs. Final Cut 7 was just to keep the wolves at bay, Final Cut X pox...well...I let everyone else go there.

Apple is making way to much money to really care about it's video products. Once the iPhone came out, they switched the engineers to that department and only a few lonely people could even think about Final Cut.

Adobe has taken advantage and good for them. I have both Final Cut and Adobe CS5. I'm starting to lean toward premier simply because of the workflow with it's other programs such as After Effects, Encore, & Photoshop. Much faster encoding, etc.

Brent Dunn
Owner / Director / Editor
DunnRight Films
DunnRight Video.com
Video Marketing Toolbox.net

Sony EX-1,
Canon 5D Mark II
Canon 7D
Mac Pro Tower, Quad Core,
with Final Cut Studio

HP i7 Quad laptop
Adobe CS-5 Production Suite





Return to posts index

Jamie Franklin
Re: apple reinvents the pen and cave painting!
on Jul 18, 2011 at 6:54:49 am

My biggest issue, and more personal than anything, was the EOL on Color. I have CS5 and adore it. After Effects is my second home next to FCP7. But Color is where I invested a lot of time and expense and it's quite a bother to me switching over to DaVinci and going through yet another round of training...Had Apple even HINTED at pulling it, I would have invested where I was limited. So for now I'm stuck on a powerful dinosaur that has a host of issues that will never be resolved now...

X is a disaster, the timeline is heartless. But, making an NLE switch wasn't the biggest issue for me personally only because I have somewhere to go to without incurring additional expense unlike some others......


Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2017 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]