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Herb Sevush
question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 14, 2011 at 4:14:03 pm

One of the apparently odd things about FCPX is the change in naming conventions:

timeline = project
project = ??
folder = event

I haven't cracked open a copy of X and I'm not sure what the new naming conventions are, but more importantly I'm curious as to what they mean.

So I'm here asking - what are the new names for old things and what exactly do these name changes signify - about functionality, Apples marketing goals, or anything else you'd like to throw in here?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Tom Wolsky
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 14, 2011 at 5:02:08 pm

Timeline is a window. Project is a sequence in the window. Event is an event, more like scratch disk than folder.

All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Coming in 2011 "Complete Training for FCPX"
and "Final Cut Pro X for iMovie and Final Cut Express Users" from Focal Press


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Herb Sevush
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 14, 2011 at 5:17:45 pm

Sorry Tom but I don't understand you.

"Timeline is a window. "

Do you mean that a "timeline" in FCP7 = a "window" in FCPX? I didn't realize that there was such a thing as a "window."

"Project is a sequence in the window."

FCPX project = FCP sequence, Yes?

"Event is an event, more like scratch disk than folder."

Does this mean that there is only one Event, like there is only one "SCratch Disk" in FCP7? If so is there anything in FCPX that relates to the folders in FCP7 Scratch Disk?


And most importantly, what is your take on why they chose these names - why call the place that holds all your media an "Event" - on the surface it sounds wrong. And if a Project is a Sequence - then why not call it a sequence?

I'm not being argumentative here - I'm sure the Apple design team gave a lot of thought into re-naming these functions and I'm trying to figure out what they were trying to get at by doing so.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Craig Seeman
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 14, 2011 at 5:35:15 pm

My way of explaining it:

Project contains Timeline
Timeline contains Primary Storylines, Secondary Storylines and Connected Clips.

Events contains Media and Collections.

A Project has a default association with an Event but can contain media from multiple Events.
An Event can have multiple Projects.

Events and Projects "relate" to each other much as might be in a Relational Database.

If you copy/move a Project it can be the Project itself, include referenced Events, just the Media used.



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Rick Lang
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 14, 2011 at 5:36:00 pm

This can be confusing until you gain experience using FCP X. From the FCP X Help file glossary:
Timeline The bottom portion of the Final Cut Pro window contains the Timeline, where you create your movie project by adding and arranging clips and making all your edits.

Event When you import video, audio, and still images, or record directly into Final Cut Pro, the source media files (your raw footage) are stored in Events. An Event is similar to a folder that can hold dozens, hundreds, or even thousands of video clips, audio clips, and still images. Each Event in the Event Library refers to a folder on your hard disk that contains the original source media files, any render files related to your media, and a database file that keeps track of where everything is.

project A project provides a record of your editing decisions and the media you use. You build your project by adding clips and editing them in the Timeline. A project is also defined by its video, audio, and render properties. In most cases, Final Cut Pro manages project settings automatically based on the properties of the first clip you add to a project.

Project Library
The Project Library contains all of the Final Cut Pro projects on your hard disk and on any connected external drives.

project properties A project’s default Event as well as the project’s video, audio, and render properties. In most cases, Final Cut Pro manages project’s properties automatically based on the properties of the first clip you add to a project. If you must modify the project properties, choose video and audio project properties based on how you intend to share your final movie with your audience. You set a project’s properties when you create a Final Cut Pro project, and you can change them at any time.

Rick Lang

iMac 27” 2.8GHz i7 16GB


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Herb Sevush
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 14, 2011 at 5:45:41 pm

Rick -

This was very helpful.

I had heard there were no timelines anymore just projects - apparently not true.

I take it each project can have only 1 timeline? And that being the case, to work with multiple timelines you would have to work with multiple projects?

Also you said that a given project starts out with a single Event folder. If you later import more material into the project, does it store it in the original Event, or does it create a new Event that is now also associated with the project?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Tom Wolsky
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 14, 2011 at 5:56:46 pm

Excuse the use of the word window. The Timeline is a panel in FCPX's single window. The Event Library is another panel. The Event Browser is another panel. The Viewer is another panel. The Timeline can hold a project, or it can hold an opened clip, showing its tracks, or it can hold an opened compound clip. The project is the sequence as you would understand it in FCP classic. You can have as many projects as you want and switch between any projects you have available on your hard drives. You can copy and paste between projects. You cannot put projects inside projects. The projects and events reside on your hard drives, and any can be accessed at any time.

FCP has multiple folders that hold the media for multiple projects in a single capture scratch folder. Similarly FCPX has a single Events folder than can hold multiple events, each contained inside a folder and includes the media (or aliases to the media) and other files like analysis files, just as classic FCP did.

All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Coming in 2011 "Complete Training for FCPX"
and "Final Cut Pro X for iMovie and Final Cut Express Users" from Focal Press


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Herb Sevush
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 14, 2011 at 6:12:23 pm

Thanks Tom.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Craig Seeman
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 14, 2011 at 6:02:52 pm

[Herb Sevush] "I take it each project can have only 1 timeline?"

A "project" in FCP7 does not mean the same thing as in FCPX.

[Herb Sevush] "Also you said that a given project starts out with a single Event folder. If you later import more material into the project, does it store it in the original Event, or does it create a new Event that is now also associated with the project?"

This is why I say it's a relational database.

An Event can have any number of Projects.
A Project can have media from any number of Events.

Events contain media, not Projects. Projects have Edit Decisions (Timeline)

You can have multiple projects open but it's awkward in that it's not quite the same as tabbed access. You use the arrow buttons on the top left to move through them once, they've been opened.



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Herb Sevush
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 14, 2011 at 6:11:42 pm

"A "project" in FCP7 does not mean the same thing as in FCPX."

This is what I am trying to understand. A FCP7 project has one or more timelines and a collection of media in a browser. Other than in it's inability to have more than 1 timeline, in what way is a FCPX project functionally different than a FCP7 project. I know it has a totally different way of linking the content, but does it have different content as well? What else is different?

Also, you talked a lot about events but you didn't address the original question

"If you later import more material into the project, does it store it in the original Event, or does it create a new Event ...?"

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Noah Kadner
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 14, 2011 at 6:20:30 pm

Right- that's probably the confusing part. A "Project" in FCP X is more like a Final Cut Pro 7 sequence. It is a single timeline. If you wanted to make another timeline you'd make another 'project.'

What you're used to calling a Project from FCP lives more in the Event Browser. Up there you can classify footage into Keyword collections- which are basically like bins except the clips know which bins they're in instead of just plain folders.

Within an Event you can create Compound Clips- which for all intents and purposes act like mini timelines. They can be dragged from the Event window into a Project timeline.

So for example you could organize a project by placing all media into an event, classifying it into Keyword collections that accomplish the same task as FCP 7 bins. Then you could create a folder in your Event Browser into which you start creating Compound Clips- say one for each scene in your project.

Then you create a "Project" down in the Project browser area and drag your Compound Clips from the Event Browser down into that single Project timeline- giving you the same effect as multiple sequences from FCP 7.

It's a lot of new terminology and workflow but once you get your head around it in and of itself and less trying to recreate the workflow from FCP 7 you'll start to gain a lot of advantages. For example- you can easily place and reuse media from any previous project into another project. All media you've ever ingested can be accessed from any project. And because Keyword Collections tag the media you place into them- it's a lot easier to find footage once you've done the initial organizational step.

In other words- you just need to try it out. And unlearn what you've learned as a famous someone once said.

-Noah

Unlock the secrets of 24p, HD and Final Cut Studio with Call Box Training. Featuring the Panasonic GH2 and GoPro HD Hero.


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Herb Sevush
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 14, 2011 at 6:27:47 pm

"Then you could create a folder in your Event Browser into which you start creating Compound Clips- say one for each scene in your project."

do you mean you can create the compound clips before you ever put anything on the timeline. How does that work?

"In other words- you just need to try it out."

All of my work is multi-cam. I'm not going to try it out till it has multi-cam available (if and when). I'm just trying to understand it enough to figure out if it's even worth waiting for.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Tom Wolsky
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 14, 2011 at 6:42:22 pm

You can select a bunch of clips in the Browser and convert them either into a compound clip, where they are strung out like a sequence, or into an Audition, where they are grouped in a container where you can switch between the clips. For instance you can't decide which of four clips to use. Select them in the browser and make them an Audition. Edit the Audition into the project and then switch between them to try them out in the sequence.

All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Coming in 2011 "Complete Training for FCPX"
and "Final Cut Pro X for iMovie and Final Cut Express Users" from Focal Press


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Craig Seeman
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 14, 2011 at 6:28:43 pm

FCP7 Project and FCPX Project are not really related despite the fact that they are the same word.

in FCPX a Project contains Edit Decisions (Timeline).

In the Event Library there is Media which are contained in Collections (like bins).

Basically what was FCP7 "Project" has been split into a Media container and Timelines.

You can have as many Timelines (Projects) as you'd like. You can even open a lot of them (moving between them is awkward though).

Events can have multiple Projects.
While a Project must have a default Event association, Projects (Timelines) can actually use media from any Event.

Hence the relational database concept.
It can be
One Event having Many Projects
and/or
One Project using Many Events
There's no constraint. You build the relationships as you choose.

BTW this is why I think it's inevitable that this will get tied to a server product to manage this on a larger scale.



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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 15, 2011 at 2:29:35 am

isn't the event my sister's wedding? isn't that the default intellectual architecture? (I'm tagging all the barmitzvah, disneyland references in the manual in good reader on my ipad - its my mission) - but can we all not agree that we are sitting in marshy useless ground born out of the fact that the event is an historical dated occurrence in the specific users life?

that the application is directly geared towards them? that a place in time has an occurrence, the occurrence has a project, and you might reach back as an iphoto video user into summer of 09 to grab that special event reference moment? because you can? so you can see them? because it is your timeline?

We are scrabbling so awfully to grab meaning from the small moments in this application - anything that might make us think that it is larger than it is. but all the events are there, they are all there to be seen, its an iphoto library, that's all we're all looking at, that's all it is.

look - this feels nihilistic, because it feels like a - throw up your hands moment - we are basically clinging to meta data and Apple's super duper long term intentions for VA handling to convince ourselves that this is a professional application - it's why we are arguing so hard - we're screaming around this thing and the truth is it's organised like iphoto, it presents imovie's timeline, the clip connections have no resonance or meaning really.

God but why did they come to NAB?

Really though, why - why - did they do that?


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Chris Kenny
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 15, 2011 at 4:04:54 am

[Aindreas Gallagher] "look - this feels nihilistic, because it feels like a - throw up your hands moment - we are basically clinging to meta data and Apple's super duper long term intentions for VA handling to convince ourselves that this is a professional application - it's why we are arguing so hard - we're screaming around this thing and the truth is it's organised like iphoto, it presents imovie's timeline, the clip connections have no resonance or meaning really.

God but why did they come to NAB?

Really though, why - why - did they do that?"


You're making a large number of subjective and/or poorly justified statements and telling yourself they add up to an argument.

You know why Apple showed up at NAB? You know why they introduced this as the successor to FCP 7? You know why FCP X has features (and a price point) that would make no sense for an actual consumer app?

Because Apple intends for this platform to the the future of video editing.

They're taking a risk. They may not succeed. There will probably be short-term losses. But people who claim Apple is retreating to the 'consumer' market are arguing that this must be so because Apple couldn't possibly believe they could redefine 'pro' editing this much. I think this seriously underestimates Apple's ambition.

(The above position will be treated as crazy in this forum, but it fits the available facts better than the "Apple is abandoning pros" position, and is consistent with the general scope of Apple's ambitions in markets it enters.)

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 15, 2011 at 4:17:24 am

[Chris Kenny] "it's why we are arguing so hard - we're screaming around this thing and the truth is it's organised like iphoto, it presents imovie's timeline, and the clip connections have no resonance or meaning really."

Mean I know Chris, I took her out of context, but sure, selective quotations are seductive.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Chris Kenny
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 15, 2011 at 12:21:38 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "Mean I know Chris, I took her out of context, but sure, selective quotations are seductive."

Um... that's not a selective quotation it's a misattributed one. I'm not sure what you're playing at here.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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David Cherniack
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 14, 2011 at 6:19:24 pm

I tend to believe the nomenclature comes from 'Event' Videography:

Joe's Wedding and its videos and stills = an Event

Your edit of the wedding video = a Project

Your edit of the stills to Lawrence Welk's champagne music = another Project

Get the idea of what possible inspired the new names? Because, in theory, if not in practice, the event could also be James Cameron's next opus. Apple apparently sees the range of productions as events. A strange notion to attempt to change the standard nomenclature, but if your intent is to appeal to consumers it makes some sense.

David
AllinOneFilms.com


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Herb Sevush
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 14, 2011 at 6:36:15 pm

David -

This is one of the things I was trying to discuss in this thread.

The only way it seems to make sense is in the way you laid it out - "What is the Event that you want to make your movie about? - your kids birthday, your trip to Spain, etc." A very youtube way to think of video production.

The idea that a single Event is at the heart of the editing process is a strange one. It does seem like it relates to the story about the Imovie vacation video.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Tom Wolsky
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 14, 2011 at 6:47:36 pm

Generally the workflow is to put the media for a project in a single event. The event can act as an FCP7 project. It holds all the media for the project, whether it's your scuba trip, your wedding, a corporate communications project, a documentary short, or a narrative feature. The event holds the media, the media gets broken into collections and smart collections and can be organized in folders. In FCP7 you could use sequences and bins to organize. In FCPX you can use multiple ways to organize including bins (folders) and sequences (compound clips).

All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Coming in 2011 "Complete Training for FCPX"
and "Final Cut Pro X for iMovie and Final Cut Express Users" from Focal Press


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Herb Sevush
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 14, 2011 at 6:52:33 pm

Thanks again Tom, that's what I was trying to understand.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Rick Lang
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 14, 2011 at 8:15:44 pm

Tom, Craig, and others comments have eloquently answered the questions you asked me earlier.

Just remember though, an Event is not limited to the media of one Project. You could (but who in their right mind would) put your lifetime’s video media in one Event and produce hundreds of Projects, including James Cameron’s next opus, using the same default Event folder. At the other extreme, as Tom mentioned, your Project could be associated with only one Event and all your unique projects would have corresponding unique event folders. But you may not stick to that method if you don’t want that. In reality, you’ll likely use a few Event folders (at least one unique and others with shared media) for each project. After a while, it’ll all be second nature and you’ll whiz around all your events as source material for your current project.

If this sounds chaotic, as was mentioned earlier, when you SAVE the project by using DUPLICATE for a snapshot in time, you can chose to save only the project edit information (small amount of information) or the project with the subset of clips used by the project timeline or the project with the Event media used in the project. Hope I have that right...

Rick Lang

iMac 27” 2.8GHz i7 16GB


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Andrew Richards
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 14, 2011 at 8:47:01 pm

[Herb Sevush] "The idea that a single Event is at the heart of the editing process is a strange one. It does seem like it relates to the story about the Imovie vacation video."

Don't get caught up in the semantics though, they are only named Events. Functionally speaking, they are logical containers for media that you can chose to correlate to any organization scheme you wish. There is a date and time default in the UI for sorting Events, but that can be disabled.

Compartmentalize what the interface elements are called from what they can do, and FCPX starts to look a lot less consumery.

Best,
Andy


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Herb Sevush
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 14, 2011 at 8:54:30 pm

Actually one of the reasons I started this thread WAS to discus the semantics. I believe the designer's choices in the naming of things tells a lot about their vision for X, precisely because those names are so different from industry norms. I realize that no one is married to the designers intent, but I find it useful in evaluating what the future development might be.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Andrew Richards
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 14, 2011 at 9:22:56 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Actually one of the reasons I started this thread WAS to discus the semantics. I believe the designer's choices in the naming of things tells a lot about their vision for X, precisely because those names are so different from industry norms. I realize that no one is married to the designers intent, but I find it useful in evaluating what the future development might be."

Certainly, and I posted at length attempting to translate the semantics elsewhere on the thread. I don't think there is a lot to read into the names of UI elements though. What about the Canvas in legacy FCP? Its name has no industry norm to align with.

I agree the designers introduced an artificial barrier to understanding and a far more abstract metaphor, but I wouldn't read much into the names of the UI elements in terms of hints at future development.

Best,
Andy


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Herb Sevush
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 14, 2011 at 9:39:42 pm

I'm not being paranoid about this naming thing, I just find it interesting. Maybe after 20 years in analysis I have learned to take insignificant things seriously, and serious things humorously.

You bring up the name "Canvas" in FCP. It's pretty obvious that the concept was "a blank canvas" in which you could create anything. It's not better or worse than something like "Event", it's just a clue into a thought process.

I never understood why an NLE would run from the simple and descriptive "Source" and "Record" monitor of TV production. Everyone in the business at the time understood it and new kids could learn it as easily as "Viewer" and "Canvas." Obviously the designers back then were stone cold ignorant of editing conventions and were not interested in feedback from editors. Which also seems to be the case with X.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Tom Wolsky
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 14, 2011 at 10:44:24 pm

This product is the logical extension of iMovie. This is the product iMovie users would step up to. It uses the terminology these users are familiar with.

All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Coming in 2011 "Complete Training for FCPX"
and "Final Cut Pro X for iMovie and Final Cut Express Users" from Focal Press


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Walter Soyka
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 15, 2011 at 2:07:53 am

[Herb Sevush] "I never understood why an NLE would run from the simple and descriptive "Source" and "Record" monitor of TV production. Everyone in the business at the time understood it and new kids could learn it as easily as "Viewer" and "Canvas.""

Since this is a conversation about semantics, I think it's important to point out that FCP's Canvas window was fundamentally different than, say, Avid's record monitor -- you could actually transform media in the Canvas.

I think the canvas metaphor was actually carefully chosen -- it's a 2D space showing a WYSIWYG composite where the editor could grab and directly manipulate the content on it. It does not simply view the timeline as a traditional video record monitor does.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Herb Sevush
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 15, 2011 at 2:24:44 pm

Walter -

Thanks you. Good post. And it's why I am interested in the nomenclature of X. I think a lot of time is taken with naming these things by the design team and they are clues to how they see the ap working.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Walter Soyka
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 15, 2011 at 2:47:14 pm

[Herb Sevush] "And it's why I am interested in the nomenclature of X. I think a lot of time is taken with naming these things by the design team and they are clues to how they see the ap working."

I agree 100%.

It's puzzling to me that some here keep pointing to FCPX's advanced technological foundation as evidence of the depth, reach, and direction of Apple's plan, but in the next breath dismiss the design foundation (like the connotation of the word Event, or how much FCPX tries to abstract editorial away) as evidence of its direction.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Chris Kenny
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 15, 2011 at 12:09:33 am

[Herb Sevush] "The only way it seems to make sense is in the way you laid it out - "What is the Event that you want to make your movie about? - your kids birthday, your trip to Spain, etc." A very youtube way to think of video production."

People are reading far too much into this naming. The word "Event" can refer to anything that is bounded in time, and virtually all video shoots start and end at specific points in time.

I think they're mostly called 'Events' because what else were they going to be called? Projects? But they're not, since they only contain source media. Libraries? And the thing that holds them is now called the Library Library? Collections? But they contain things called Collections. Archives? Vaults? Those feel like they'd be related to backup, not material you're actively working with. Hey, if the thing you put them in is called a Library, and they hold items, maybe they could be called Shelves? Well, no, nobody thinks of organizing source media on shelves. Bins? Those are something else.

'Events' is not an ideal word, but there doesn't really seem to be a better one.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Herb Sevush
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 15, 2011 at 12:34:03 am

"People are reading far too much into this naming."

I brought it up because I thought people were reading far too little into it.

"The word "Event" can refer to anything that is bounded in time, and virtually all video shoots start and end at specific points in time."

Everything is bounded in time.

An event implies a singular continuous occurrence, that's why people who do weddings and such are called Event Planners. Documentary shoots, feature film productions and many other productions are totally discontinuous and in no real way can be thought of as an "event."

"'Events' is not an ideal word, but there doesn't really seem to be a better one."

How about "folder?"

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Chris Kenny
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 15, 2011 at 12:46:15 am

[Herb Sevush] "An event implies a singular continuous occurrence, that's why people who do weddings and such are called Event Planners. Documentary shoots, feature film productions and many other productions are totally discontinuous and in no real way can be thought of as an "event.""

The word 'Event' is more generic than you're making it out to be.

Moreover, you're assuming narrative features and documentaries should group all footage for the whole project into a single event. Why? Events could be shooting days for a narrative feature, or could contain footage for specific occurrences (e.g. "Inauguration Day Footage") for a documentary, and your entire project would pull footage from multiple events.

[Herb Sevush] "How about "folder?""

An Event isn't conceptually equivalent to a folder, it's conceptually equivalent to a database. I suppose Apple could have called them 'Databases', but they probably thought that was a little too geeky.

Mind you, it would be nice to be able to organize events into 'folders', particularly if you have multiple events primarily associated with a single project. But this is not an especially egregious omission for a 1.0 release.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Herb Sevush
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 15, 2011 at 12:51:41 am

Good Chris, now we're getting somewhere.

Why is an Event not equivalent to a folder?

You mean it contains more than the media, it also contains the metadata connections FCPX uses in conjunction with the media? But I thought you can also just drag clips into an Event, without going thru the import functions. Am I wrong about this?

Also, can you open an Event with the finder, and if so what types of files do you see?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Chris Kenny
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 15, 2011 at 12:59:48 am

[Herb Sevush] "Why is an Event not equivalent to a folder? "

Because it can't contain or be contained by other events. It's not a generic hierarchical container for data, the way a folder is. It's a flat collection of data organized using metadata and saved queries.

[Herb Sevush] "Also, can you open an Event with the finder, and if so what types of files do you see?"

Events are obviously represented using Folders in the Finder, and can be opened. OS X has a hierarchical file system -- obviously Events live in folders at some level. Everything lives in a folder at some level even in iOS, which has no user-facing file system.

What you see when you open an Event in the Finder is not what you see when you view one in FCP X. Consider the iTunes library, as a point of reference. If it's set to iTunes, organizes your iTunes Library on disk by content type and artist name. Does that mean artist names are, conceptually, folders in iTunes? Does it mean the iTunes library itself is conceptually a folder? No. That's just the on-disk representation.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

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Michael Hancock
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 15, 2011 at 2:01:44 am

[Chris Kenny] "Because it can't contain or be contained by other events. It's not a generic hierarchical container for data, the way a folder is. It's a flat collection of data organized using metadata and saved queries."

Sounds like a bin to me.

----------------
Michael Hancock
Editor


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Chris Kenny
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 15, 2011 at 2:11:08 am

[Michael Hancock] "[Chris Kenny] "Because it can't contain or be contained by other events. It's not a generic hierarchical container for data, the way a folder is. It's a flat collection of data organized using metadata and saved queries."

Sounds like a bin to me."


Oh, sure, with the minor details that bins can be nested, items inside bins aren't organized according to metadata, and bins don't contain saved queries.

Had the word 'bin' not had any previous meaning in the NLE context, I think its dictionary definition is sufficiently generic ("a receptacle for storing a specified substance") that it could have been used in place of 'Event'. But that wasn't the case.

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Michael Hancock
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 15, 2011 at 2:21:46 am

[Chris Kenny] "Oh, sure, with the minor details that bins can be nested, items inside bins aren't organized according to metadata, and bins don't contain saved queries."

Depends on the NLE you're using.

[Chris Kenny] "Had the word 'bin' not had any previous meaning in the NLE context, I think its dictionary definition is sufficiently generic ("a receptacle for storing a specified substance") that it could have been used in place of 'Event'. But that wasn't the case."

Bin has a very clear meaning to most editors. Event doesn't. Why change terminology when they do essentially the same thing? It's confusing and seems completely unnecessary.

----------------
Michael Hancock
Editor


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Chris Kenny
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 15, 2011 at 2:52:15 am

[Michael Hancock] "Bin has a very clear meaning to most editors. Event doesn't. Why change terminology when they do essentially the same thing? It's confusing and seems completely unnecessary."

It doesn't do essentially the same thing. I just explained that.

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Michael Hancock
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 15, 2011 at 3:40:15 am

[Chris Kenny] "It doesn't do essentially the same thing. I just explained that."

No you didn't. You said "It's a flat collection of data organized using metadata and saved queries." How is that different than a bin, other than the saved queries? You name clips, they have timecode, you add comments and custom metadata, you sort them by that data, you search them by that data. I was doing that in Avid for years and they're constantly expanding on it. You can do most of that in FCP7.

If you explained it before I didn't get it. How is an event different from a bin? They both hold things with metadata attached. You search and sort them both. In Avid you cannot put a bin into a bin - it's not a folder. It sounds like an event. What does an Event do, besides save search queries, that a bin doesn't?

----------------
Michael Hancock
Editor


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Chris Kenny
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 15, 2011 at 3:50:21 am

[Michael Hancock] "No you didn't. You said "It's a flat collection of data organized using metadata and saved queries." How is that different than a bin, other than the saved queries? You name clips, they have timecode, you add comments and custom metadata, you sort them by that data, you search them by that data. I was doing that in Avid for years and they're constantly expanding on it. You can do most of that in FCP7. "

Bins are not organized using metadata. They can contain items that have metadata and can be sorted by metadata, but this is not the same thing. It's like the difference between the Finder and iTunes. The former is built around the concept of a single canonical hierarchical organization for your data. The latter supports ad-hoc organization based on metadata.

Actually, FCP X is even more metadata-oriented than iTunes. iTunes allows songs to be placed on playlists independently of any metadata they have attached. FCP X has no equivalent of this; the only way to associate items with each other inside an event is through common metadata.

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Tom Wolsky
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 15, 2011 at 8:49:05 am

"the only way to associate items with each other inside an event is through common metadata."

Aside from putting anything you want, any random association of material, into the event and puttIng that media in folders in any way the user chooses.

All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Coming in 2011 "Complete Training for FCPX"
and "Final Cut Pro X for iMovie and Final Cut Express Users" from Focal Press


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Chris Kenny
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 15, 2011 at 12:30:46 pm

[Tom Wolsky] "Aside from putting anything you want, any random association of material, into the event and puttIng that media in folders in any way the user chooses."

Err? You can create folders in events... but you can't put footage into them. They're used exclusively for holding keyword/smart collections (i.e. stored queries).

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Tom Wolsky
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 15, 2011 at 12:58:56 pm

Quite right. Only with different collections. It's the most annoyingly anal application on the planet. Even Aperture and iPhoto and iTunes let you create playlists and folders and albums as you like. Only FCPX, oh and yes, iMovie of course won't let you.

All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Coming in 2011 "Complete Training for FCPX"
and "Final Cut Pro X for iMovie and Final Cut Express Users" from Focal Press


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 15, 2011 at 1:48:07 pm

[Chris Kenny] "
Because it can't contain or be contained by other events. It's not a generic hierarchical container for data, the way a folder is. It's a flat collection of data organized using metadata and saved queries."


where are we, on the deck of the starship enterprise? Why are we talking balls about this thing like as if it was a next gen warpcore? It's a lump of software cobbled together by the itunes team. Who wouldn't presumably know editing from a hole in the ground. (he said so blasé)

I don't like it myself. And I am past having orgasms about relational databases.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Tom Wolsky
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 15, 2011 at 3:03:32 am

It's an event because it's an event in iMovie. It's an event in iMovie because it's an event, Johnny's birthday.

All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Coming in 2011 "Complete Training for FCPX"
and "Final Cut Pro X for iMovie and Final Cut Express Users" from Focal Press


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Chris Kenny
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 15, 2011 at 3:04:38 am

[Tom Wolsky] "It's an event because it's an event in iMovie. It's an event in iMovie because it's an event, Johnny's birthday."

It's super helpful when someone posts a reply many levels deep into a thread that doesn't acknowledge any of the previous discussion.

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Tom Wolsky
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 15, 2011 at 3:08:03 am

That's because the rest of the discussion, of which I was party to before you joined it, is complete bullshit.

All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Coming in 2011 "Complete Training for FCPX"
and "Final Cut Pro X for iMovie and Final Cut Express Users" from Focal Press


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Chris Kenny
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 15, 2011 at 3:08:41 am

[Tom Wolsky] "That's because the rest of the discussion, of which I was party to before you joined it, is complete bullshit."

Well, who could argue with such a well-reasoned position?

--
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You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Tom Wolsky
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 15, 2011 at 3:11:13 am

Actually no, I'll correct that. It was a perfectly reasonable discussion until you joined.

All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Coming in 2011 "Complete Training for FCPX"
and "Final Cut Pro X for iMovie and Final Cut Express Users" from Focal Press


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Chris Kenny
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 15, 2011 at 3:12:52 am

[Tom Wolsky] "Actually no, I'll correct that. It was a perfectly reasonable discussion until you joined."

Which you've demonstrated conclusively by calling what I said "bullshit" without explanation, I suppose.

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Craig Seeman
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 14, 2011 at 6:41:20 pm

But "Event" is in Broadcasting as well.
A TV Series Pilot, Movie Premiere, Awards or Live televised concert, etc., is often marketing as an "Event" (a big event). Of course all this marketing is to consumers as well.



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Herb Sevush
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 14, 2011 at 6:50:39 pm

Movie Premieres, Awards or Live televised concert are actual "events" - that is something that happens in one time and place. For that reason many of them are not edited at all, they are broadcast Live! - that's what Live means.

In any event (watch the pun there) many productions are not "Events", they are often temporally and geographically discontinuous. That's why I keep asking about how FCPX deals with importing additional material over time.

Don't you find it just a little odd to take an aspect of TV programming that is often not edited at all and make it the central organizing metaphor for an editing system?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Craig Seeman
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 14, 2011 at 7:31:16 pm

[Herb Sevush] "That's why I keep asking about how FCPX deals with importing additional material over time."

They can all go into one event. You can also merge events.

[Herb Sevush] "Don't you find it just a little odd to take an aspect of TV programming that is often not edited at all and make it the central organizing metaphor for an editing system?"

Many such events are pre-recorded and edited for time . . . and of course many are not.
Yes, I do think Apple's naming convention create confusion. Project is the best (or worst) example.

I can think of better wording that would be easier to understand.

Media Collection, which contains the media and which such media is organized through Keyword Collections and Smart Collection.
and
Timeline

Dump "Events" and "Projects" and have Media (and its organization) and Timelines. One wouldn't need to learn Apple's "Esperanto" to understand that.



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Richard Harvey
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 15, 2011 at 11:04:09 am

This is further confused by how other software uses the same words. For instance Cubase uses "Event" to mean a clip or part of a clip, i.e a segment of media such as a spoken word or sequence of notes. If you swap between Cubase and FCPX you need to have an agile mind.


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Chris Kenny
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 15, 2011 at 12:17:16 am

[Herb Sevush] "Movie Premieres, Awards or Live televised concert are actual "events" - that is something that happens in one time and place."

The most general (and, based on a survey of three dictionaries, the first) definition of an event is simply 'a thing that happens'. Source footage records things that have happened. (Or, if you want to be really pedantic, it depicts things that appear to have happened.)

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Andrew Richards
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 14, 2011 at 8:20:06 pm

Attempt at Drawing Parallels

Events are kind of like global bins, since the media lives inside them (logically, if not physically). The big difference is that media is sub-organized entirely by metadata filtered lists instead of spatially by placing media in bins.

Projects in FCPX are a lot like Sequences in legacy FCP. There is essentially one timeline per FCPX Project. Projects must be associated to a default Event to exist at all, but any media from any Event can be used in any Project. The closest analog to legacy FCP I can think of would be to think of FCPX's Project Library as being like an always-open master project in legacy FCP that you store all your sequences in.

Instead of bins, Events contain Keyword Collections and Smart Collections. With bins in legacy FCP, if you drag a clip into a bin it moved into the bin. In FCPX, when you add a Keyword to a clip, the clip is listed in the corresponding Keyword Collection, but it can also be in other Keyword Collections and still appears at the root of the Event. If you use Gmail and organize your email with Labels, this is much the same principal. Smart Collections let you define a filter that will dynamically fill the Smart Collection with any clip matching the filter. If you've ever used Smart Folders in the Finder or Smart Playlists in iTunes, Smart Collections are much the same concept.

You can make Folders in both the Project and Event Libraries. In the case of the Project Library, you are able to create folder trees to organize your Projects much as you would in the Finder. Event Folders can only be used to organize Keyword Collections and Smart Collections. You can't put media in an Event Folder like you could in a Bin with legacy FCP (cue jeers).

Keywords can tag pieces of a clip, and this essentially replaces subclips.

The Motion tab of the Viewer in legacy FCP is essentially replaced by the Inspector in FCPX. The Inspector is more universal though, and its contents changes contextually depending on what is highlighted. The legacy Filters tab is also replaced with the Inspector for certain contexts.

The Effects tab in the legacy FCP Browser is replaced by the Effects Browser drawer in FCPX. There are dedicated drawers for Titles, Generators, Themes, Transitions, Music & Sound, and Photos. Music & Sound and Photos catch flak for referencing iTunes and iPhoto by default, but the Music & Sound Browser has a pulldown that you can sue to point it at any stock audio library you have on your Mac with search and preview right in the drawer. The Photo Browser also plays with Aperture Libraries.

There is dual monitor support, but no tear-away tabs. You can send either the Event Library or the Viewer to a second display. Everything else is married to the main window.

Speaking of the Viewer, there is only one instead of the old Viewer/Canvas two headed layout. There is a two-up view available when trimming, but it is highly contextual.

Some Relevant Opinions

My chief concern is that a serious workstation will accumulate a lot of Events and Projects and having the system always showing them all the time seems like it could eventually overwhelm the application. But I haven't seen this happen, and it probably would depend a lot on how much RAM the host Mac has and how fast the storage is. Regardless, I submitted a feedback requesting a way to hide Projects and Events in a more elegant manner than the current workaround.

I don't think a dedicated Viewer/Canvas is essential (many around here vehemently disagree with me). I do say Apple needs to be more liberal with the two-up view available for trimming operations and expand it to be available any time the Precision Editor is engaged. I have submitted this as a Feedback request as well.

There ought to be a way to turn off GUI animations, some of them are quite gratuitous.

I like how dragging Projects and Events from drive to drive within FCPX facilitates passing work among multiple computers or editors. Now they just need to enable shared Event and Project Libraries on shared storage...

I like how color correction is not a filter, but rather a core adjustment for any clip (like scale or opacity).

In general, I like the idea of a GUI that morphs to suit the context of the work being done at any given time.

Best,
Andy


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Tom Wolsky
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 14, 2011 at 9:14:48 pm

"I don't think a dedicated Viewer/Canvas is essential"

I haven't tried it, still to early, but we need to find a good workflow for dialog and interviews without a gang function. With only one viewer ganging is obsolete. I'm not sure if Apple will find a solution for this using some multicam-type mechanism.

All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Coming in 2011 "Complete Training for FCPX"
and "Final Cut Pro X for iMovie and Final Cut Express Users" from Focal Press


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Andrew Richards
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 14, 2011 at 9:41:51 pm

[Tom Wolsky] "I haven't tried it, still to early, but we need to find a good workflow for dialog and interviews without a gang function."

From Apple's own documentation for FCP7:

Final Cut Pro has several options for synchronizing, or ganging, the Viewer and Canvas/Timeline playheads together, so that if you move one, the other moves by the same amount. When the playheads are synchronized, you can control the playheads from the Viewer, Canvas, or Timeline. Playhead sync only works between the Canvas and Timeline windows and the Viewer window.

Why Synchronize Playheads?

Reasons for using playhead sync include:
  • Automatically opening sequence clips in the Viewer to quickly make filter adjustments (for example, adjusting each sequence clip’s Color Correction filter).
  • Using the Viewer as an alternative to the Trim Edit window, to look at prospective new In and Out points for a sequence clip. Although the end result is the same, this method provides a different experience than editing in the Timeline or the two-up view you see in the Canvas while trimming.
  • Temporarily syncing a Browser clip to a sequence, using any sync relationship you want.
  • Enabling real-time multiclip editing. When the Multiclip Playback option is selected, the Open playhead sync option is automatically selected.

You can see implicit agreement about ganging being obsolete in the new UI if you consider the following:
  • Filter adjustments and keyframing is handled in the Inspector and Timeline, not in dedicated tabs of a dedicated Viewer.
  • The Precision Editor is the new way to fine tune an existing edit in the Timeline, though I say they need a two-up display on all the time while this is engaged (presently it is only there wile the Trim tool is actively manipulating a clip).
  • Multi-clip is coming, and will probably use some variation on the two-up look you get during Trim operations.

Not saying there aren't other uses for ganging, but if that is all Apple thinks of ganging you can see why they would consider it obsolete when everything else is designed to work sans-Viewer.

Best,
Andy


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Rick Lang
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 15, 2011 at 4:25:24 am

[Andrew Richards] "Multi-clip is coming, and will probably use some variation on the two-up look you get during Trim operations."

That’s what I was thinking but it will offer more than two views through some selection and navigation method as you go from camera 1 to camera 2 to camera 3 etc. Maybe some thumbnails so you can see the current contents of several cameras at the same timecode value rather than the relatively blind selection method used for auditions that must get awkward after two or three cameras.

Rick Lang

iMac 27” 2.8GHz i7 16GB


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Matt Callac
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 15, 2011 at 3:05:42 pm

[Andrew Richards] "My chief concern is that a serious workstation will accumulate a lot of Events and Projects and having the system always showing them all the time seems like it could eventually overwhelm the application."

I dont' think it'll overwhelm the the application itself. it seems to be just reading from a database. Think about the file browser in motion. it's just a GUI display of your current drives/folder structures. The event's library is not that much different, only it's just everything that's in the FCP events folders on your drives. It's that plus the metadata database you create for each event. It's not taking much power to drive that. What I more worry about is it overwhelming the user. Think about once you've have literally hundreds of events on it. It's gonig to be cumbersome to navigate through that.

-mattyc


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Tom Wolsky
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 15, 2011 at 3:48:11 pm

Might I recommend Philip Hodgetts' Event Manager X to make this fairly painless.

http://assistedediting.intelligentassistance.com/EventManagerX/

All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Coming in 2011 "Complete Training for FCPX"
and "Final Cut Pro X for iMovie and Final Cut Express Users" from Focal Press


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Matt Callac
Re: question about FCPX naming conventions
on Jul 15, 2011 at 3:59:51 pm

Thanks, Tom.

I'll most surely be purchasing that if/when i start doing real work in FCPX.

-mattyc


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