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The new way of editing

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Måns Nathanaelson
The new way of editing
on Jul 14, 2011 at 9:36:32 am

First let me say that I am glad that I have found this place, many of you seams to know what you are talking about.

I have worked as a freelance editor for a couple of years, mainly in Final Cut Studio 2 (not 3 because waiting for an upgrade). Have done very complex projects involving integrated motion files and soundtrack work and I have been living with these programs for quite a while.

Now, Final Cut Pro X. My experience. Did happily download it, opened it, hated it, closed it. Got mad because I really had high expectations. Opened it again, got mad and frustrated because I couldn't understand how I could cut anything. Swore something about iMovie. Closed it. Looked up the price on Media Composer (that I have worked very little with) and checked out Premier Pro. How could Apple mess this program up?

I opened it, browsed and closed it for a couple of times, experienced bugs. Tried to read the manual and find workflows. I haven't got the chance to edit some work project on it, but I have played around with some of my own projects. And it is a new experience.

Of course, I HATE that you cant open up old FCP6/7 projects, thats the dumbest thing I have heard, in the combination of stop selling FCP7. As well as the import/export EDL/XML and the lack of multi camera editing. And its buggy. BUT I really like the new way of editing, something that I haven't seen that many people talk about. It is much more fluid then the older way. Haven't learned the fast shortcuts and trix yet, but I like the feeling of the system.

I have more control right now in FCP6, but I WANT to edit emotionally in FCP X. Hate for example in FCP6/7 the effort in moving things around (if you want to edit something in the center of a project), or having to move a file to the end of the timeline to edit it's speed. Or that people at the office that I mainly work at have project files spread out on several disks and different folders (am a folder fascist myself). FCP X is a different process, no viewer, scrubbing without clicking, browsing in the files, the meta-data categorizing and the new timeline. It feels less clunky, but not perfect. My workflow is starting to feel better in FCP X.


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Craig Seeman
Re: The new way of editing
on Jul 14, 2011 at 1:40:38 pm

If only other people were to work through learning the "new language" like you have. FCPX is much faster to organize and edit with than FCP6 or FCP7. Yes, it's missing a lot. Yes, some things are too many keystrokes. But Yes, I think those things will be fixed. It's a great engine and the improved chassis is on the way.

Personally I think a large portion of the "haters" refuse to believe a new way might actually be better/faster. They won't spend time to learn. They try to do things the "old" way and will inevitably be frustrated.

I've worked 30 years in post ranging from editor to engineer and it's been a long time since I've seen an NLE with this much promise. Yes, only "promise" at the moment but there is so much that works and so much flexibility, I believe the rest of the feature set will come along in the ensuing months.



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Michael Aranyshev
Re: The new way of editing
on Jul 14, 2011 at 2:49:40 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Personally I think a large portion of the "haters" refuse to believe a new way might actually be better/faster"

Personally I think those few who say FCPX is better than FCP simply don't know FCP well enough.


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Craig Seeman
Re: The new way of editing
on Jul 14, 2011 at 3:47:29 pm

[Michael Aranyshev] "Personally I think those few who say FCPX is better than FCP simply don't know FCP well enough."

Better? No one is saying "better" currently that I know of. Better POTENTIAL . . . absolutely.
I've been using FCP for at least 10 years . . . and Avid for more than 10 years before that.



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Michael Aranyshev
Re: The new way of editing
on Jul 14, 2011 at 4:00:02 pm

I saw the potential in CoreData right when they started to talk about it developing Tiger. Not so sure about AVFoundation. Too many changes along the road — Quartz, CoreVideo, QuickTimeX. Still no higher bit depth display and apparently no baseband video out after all work.


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David Battistella
Re: The new way of editing
on Jul 15, 2011 at 7:51:26 am

I'd say we no FCP 7 so well that we are aware of all of it's editing shortcomings and what we wish an NLE could do. FCPX does answer a lot with regard to breaking down organizing and yes, editing footage. Putting shots together, trimming, seeing all if your footage at a glance, reducing clutter in the interface, etc.

When you start to use it you can feel that they watched editors work. They broke down the tasks and freed things up.

Clip collision. That was a roadblock.

I think we will see more posts like this when the initial shock is over.

______________________________
The shortest answer is doing.
Lord Herbert



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Michael Aranyshev
Re: The new way of editing
on Jul 15, 2011 at 11:21:35 am

[David Battistella] "They broke down the tasks and freed things up. "

Like separating Overwrite form Backtimed Overwrite? Are you kidding?


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Herb Sevush
Re: The new way of editing
on Jul 15, 2011 at 2:32:03 pm

"Clip collision. That was a roadblock."

I don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about here. What roadblock?

This whole magnetic timeline thing I don't get in the slightest. Why would I want to move a clip with both audio and video into the same temporal space as already existing audio and video. Why would you want to have 2 pieces of dialogue occupying the same time, unless your doing a piece about schizophrenia.

What's the roadblock - you can insert a clip to create new space, overwrite the existing clip, or any of a dozen other variations in a standard NLE - what on earth does the magnetic timeline get you?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Greg Burke
Re: The new way of editing
on Jul 14, 2011 at 9:21:16 pm

[Craig Seeman] "ly I think a large portion of the "haters" refuse to believe a new way might actually be better/faster"

Its a 64 bit iMovie, why can you not see that...that doesn't mean its a bad program, but to KILL FCS for it was ridiculous

I wear many hats.
http://www.gregburkepost.com


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Craig Seeman
Re: The new way of editing
on Jul 14, 2011 at 10:01:31 pm

Admittedly not "Pro" now and I certainly do see that. It will be "Pro" later but they've left many with nothing between now and then. Sure FCS2009 still works but it's way behind in some areas and some people rightfully can't wait and others can't expand.


Though in today's Larry Jordan blog
http://www.larryjordan.biz/app_bin/wordpress/
I’ve had emails or phone calls from three different resellers telling me that Apple has notified resellers that it is offering them a one-time, two-day opportunity to buy as many copies of Final Cut Studio (3) as they want.

While this is not the same as putting FCS (3) on the open market, it does mean that the product will be available from selected retailers for a while longer. If you need licenses, contact your favorite, non-Apple store reseller.


So every few days Apple begins to budge a little more in thinking about extending the life of FCS2009.



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Christopher Travis
Re: The new way of editing
on Jul 14, 2011 at 2:02:50 pm

Retiming hint:

A little workaround for changing clip speeds in FCP6 without rippling the sequence or moving the clip to the end:

Park the playhead on the clip in question in the timeline.
Press "F" to bring up the master clip in the viewer
Adjust the speed of the master clip in the viewer
Then press F11 to "fit to fill" this adjusted clip back into the space occupied by the old one on the timeline.

As long as you haven't moved either playhead (on the timeline or the viewer) then you should have the speed adjusted clip in exactly the same place as it was before. So for example if you matched frame on the first frame of the clip in the timeline, then F11 back into it, the first frame should remain the same.

The retiming tools in FCP7 are far superior but still not perfect. Haven't seen what they are like in FCPX yet


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Craig Seeman
Re: The new way of editing
on Jul 14, 2011 at 2:17:10 pm

[Christopher Travis] "The retiming tools in FCP7 are far superior but still not perfect. Haven't seen what they are like in FCPX yet"

FCPX supports Optical Flow. X wins.
Despite missing Fit To Fill, X makes ramp style retiming effects much easier and better looking. While 7 had more keyframe control over the ramp, you had to go to Motion to convert to Optical Flow.
In FCPX you can make the clip connected and adjust speed there. It will not cause any rippling while you do that. It's one of the nice things about Connected Clips.



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Christopher Travis
Re: The new way of editing
on Jul 14, 2011 at 2:23:47 pm

I wasn't saying FCP7 retiming was superior to X, only to 6.

Good news about optical flow I suppose but TBH I've never achieved particularly good results with it, always end up with that ugly "aura" effect around any areas of movement.

No "fit to fill"? Thats a scary thought. I've come to use that tool a lot, especially in one of my more repetitive corporate jobs. Is there an similar/equivalent tool for getting the frame from the viewer onto playhead the canvas? I guess I could just insert/overwrite as appropriate but I think I would definitely mourn the loss of fit to fill.

Sorry for thread hijack btw.


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Christopher Travis
Re: The new way of editing
on Jul 14, 2011 at 2:25:46 pm

Oh, and are the retiming tools in x similar at all to 7? I love the way you can drag frames up and down the timeline to adjust speed. I like it because so often the goal of changing speed is not to make a clip a particular speed, but to get an action to happen at exactly the moment you want it to, and FCP7s method seems very natural to me.


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Craig Seeman
Re: The new way of editing
on Jul 14, 2011 at 2:41:10 pm

It's easy to grab the speed change points and move. You can also select range and change speed and it will ramp in and out. I think retiming in X is much easier than 7.



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Gary Pollard
Re: The new way of editing
on Jul 14, 2011 at 11:41:27 pm

Sony Vegas has only been doing this for at least five years with its velocity envelope.

I'm not knocking FCP X, but I certainly see its developers have taken a long hard look at an editing program most editors haven't looked at once.

____

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"



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Craig Seeman
Re: The new way of editing
on Jul 14, 2011 at 2:38:42 pm

[Christopher Travis] "always end up with that ugly "aura" effect around any areas of movement."

Good Optical Flow always depends on how the content was shot. It's not a replacement for a Phantom camera.

[Christopher Travis] "Is there an similar/equivalent tool for getting the frame from the viewer onto playhead the canvas?"

Canvas? What's that? ;-)
Please see my post. I explained how to do this. Not as easy as FCP7 though but no risk of rippling either. Just make Connected Clip and Retime to match duration of clip in Storyline.



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Herb Sevush
Re: The new way of editing
on Jul 14, 2011 at 2:51:09 pm

"Not as easy as FCP7 though but no risk of rippling either"

That's the whole FCPX philosophy - it's not as fast, good, etc, but it stops the stupid editor from making a mistake. Of course if you're not a novice it slows you down, oh well, let them go use Avid.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Christopher Travis
Re: The new way of editing
on Jul 14, 2011 at 2:51:39 pm

Ok I know I could just look this up somewhere else but seeing as your here..

When I asked about a "fit to fill" equivalent I wasn't talking about speed changes really. I use f2f A LOT when putting together mobile handset instructional videos. I've found it by far the fastest way to perform this pretty repetitive task. We won't be upgrading our systems any time soon here, I'm asking purely out of curiosity so feel free to ignore me if you wish.

Essentially I want, with 1 button press, to be able to take the frame I'm previewing and put it on the timeline at the frame my playhead is at on the timeline. Ideally I don't want to have to mark ins or outs and I don't want to ripple the sequence, and I'd like the new clip to essentially replace the old clip on the timeline without adjusting the ins or outs on the timeline. Yes, I want a "fit to fill" tool. Is there a similar tool in FCPX


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Michael Aranyshev
Re: The new way of editing
on Jul 14, 2011 at 2:57:53 pm

This is not Fit-to-Fill in FCP. This is Replace. FCPX doesn't have it.


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Christopher Travis
Re: The new way of editing
on Jul 14, 2011 at 3:01:24 pm

Ah ok. I just checked and it seems "fit to fill" is essentially the same as "replace" but when there is no clip on the selected track right?

Either way, the loss of this tool seems like a great shame to me. Is it just me? Do other people use this tool a lot as well?


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Michael Aranyshev
Re: The new way of editing
on Jul 14, 2011 at 3:10:16 pm

Fit-to-Fill is 4-point edit. It will put source IN to master IN and source OUT to master OUT adjusting source speed.

Replace is a great tool. That's how I sync dailies working on features. Park on a clap in the sound take in the viewer, park on a frame where sticks hit in the timeline, Replace, next. That's how I change one take for another in an edited scene. That's what I often use instead of slip cutting to music.


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Christopher Travis
Re: The new way of editing
on Jul 14, 2011 at 3:14:19 pm

So many great applications for this tool. Find it hard to understand why they would ditch it.

Oh and thanks for explaining the difference. I've been calling "replace" "fit to fill" for about 5 years now I think.


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Craig Seeman
Re: The new way of editing
on Jul 14, 2011 at 3:59:57 pm

[Christopher Travis] "Find it hard to understand why they would ditch it."

It hasn't been ditched. This is new code. It hasn't been implemented . . . yet.



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Michael Aranyshev
Re: The new way of editing
on Jul 14, 2011 at 4:09:40 pm

Oh, sure. They had time to implement two half-baked flavors of overwrite and half a dozen of "repalces" but didn't have time to implement stuff people actually use?


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Craig Seeman
Re: The new way of editing
on Jul 14, 2011 at 3:50:40 pm

Fit to Fill is a speed change. Alway has been in FCP.

Replace is something else.
Replace, Replace from Start, Replace from End, Replace and add to Audition.
No Replace from playhead though.



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Michael Aranyshev
Re: The new way of editing
on Jul 14, 2011 at 2:48:02 pm

No Fit-to-Fill and no Replace.


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Christopher Travis
Re: The new way of editing
on Jul 14, 2011 at 2:56:46 pm

If there is no equivalent then that REALLY sucks. Until I've really road tested it, I'm going to assume that the functionality is there, just hidden under a new name. I thougth the WHOLE POINT of the new FCPX UI and ALL of the controversy it has caused was that it was supposed to make timeline editing faster, at the expense of certain more high end I/O workflow features.

If they have taken away useful tools and not replaced them with better ones, what exactly was the point?


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Michael Aranyshev
Re: The new way of editing
on Jul 14, 2011 at 3:15:36 pm

[Christopher Travis] "Until I've really road tested it, I'm going to assume that the functionality is there, just hidden under a new name."

No. It isn't there. There is something under the same name but it's totally different. It doesn't replace on a frame, only on in or out point. And it ripples.

[Christopher Travis] "I thougth the WHOLE POINT of the new FCPX UI and ALL of the controversy it has caused was that it was supposed to make timeline editing faster, at the expense of certain more high end I/O workflow features.
"


No, the point was preventing casual users from creating flash frames and short gaps at the expense of everything else that makes an editing app an editing app.


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Christopher Travis
Re: The new way of editing
on Jul 14, 2011 at 3:23:37 pm

I've tried hard not to get caught up in this hysteria to be honest. I have also been looking forward to the point at which I get to sit down and actually road test FCPX and see what new timeline features it has. I have decided to accept that all the of the years I have spent working around FCP7s interface to make myself more efficient may have to be thrown out the window but that's ok, because this new toll will make me more efficient right from the start right?

Maybe not it seems. Whatever the case, Apple are still going to get £180 of my money so I can try it out for myself. Again, sorry for the thread hijack.


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Craig Seeman
Re: The new way of editing
on Jul 14, 2011 at 3:54:02 pm

Please read the entire thread.
Replace is there. Fit to fill is a bit awkward though since it requires Connected Clip then changing speed so it's a couple of steps.

Nothing has been "taken away" as this is all new code. Many things haven't been added yet.



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Michael Aranyshev
Re: The new way of editing
on Jul 14, 2011 at 4:05:51 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Please read the entire thread."

It would be nice if you followed your own advice. FCPX "Replace" isn't Replace we're talking about.


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Craig Seeman
Re: The new way of editing
on Jul 14, 2011 at 4:58:26 pm

[Michael Aranyshev] "sn't Replace we're talking about."

Once again you don't describe things accurately at all. Replace from Playhead which is ONE aspect of Replace.



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Michael Aranyshev
Re: The new way of editing
on Jul 14, 2011 at 5:17:19 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Replace from Playhead which is ONE aspect of Replace."

Which is one that's missing. Which is one that's really so different from overwrite to be worth of a separate command.


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Craig Seeman
Re: The new way of editing
on Jul 14, 2011 at 5:54:37 pm

Yes, it's missing and I've requested its future inclusion in my Feedback.

FCPX is incomplete. We know that already. Given it's not a dead product we might reasonably assume many features will be added.

I can certainly see why they have to do some strategic thinking about Replace from Playhead. The best way to execute that would mean seeing both frames simultaneously. Since they don't have Viewer/Canvas anymore they probably have to implement a 2-up as done with trimming and some equivalent for multi-cam as well.



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Dan Hayes
Re: The new way of editing
on Jul 14, 2011 at 5:36:27 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Nothing has been "taken away" as this is all new code. Many things haven't been added yet."

Many functions haven't been "taken away" from the new code, but they have been "taken away" from the latest and only version of FCP now available.

A month ago you could buy a version of FCP that could perform those functions, now you can't.



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Craig Seeman
Re: The new way of editing
on Jul 14, 2011 at 5:58:07 pm

[Dan Hayes] "A month ago you could buy a version of FCP that could perform those functions, now you can't."

And this will change with time. Your alternatives have already been discussed ad nauseum.



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Craig Seeman
Re: The new way of editing
on Jul 14, 2011 at 3:43:52 pm

[Michael Aranyshev] "no Replace."

There's Replace.
Replace, Replace from Start, Replace from End, Replace and add to Audition.
There's no Replace using the playhead position though.



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Michael Aranyshev
Re: The new way of editing
on Jul 14, 2011 at 3:51:43 pm

It's replace in the name only. And it ripples! Useless crap. They screwed up Overwrite too by the way. Haven't you noticed?


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Craig Seeman
Re: The new way of editing
on Jul 14, 2011 at 4:55:59 pm

[Michael Aranyshev] "It's replace in the name only. And it ripples! "

This really shows you haven't used it or aren't expressing yourself accurately. Neither Replace from Start nor Replace from End ripple.

[Michael Aranyshev] "They screwed up Overwrite too by the way."

D key works fine for me. You don't seem to be able to articulate the problem.



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Christopher Travis
Re: The new way of editing
on Jul 14, 2011 at 4:59:30 pm

ok, it seems like I am definitely going to have to just get stuck into this myself. Despite the testimony of about 4/5 learned professionals I'm still none the wiser as to whether the function I require is in the program.


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Michael Aranyshev
Re: The new way of editing
on Jul 14, 2011 at 5:15:07 pm

[Craig Seeman] "Neither Replace from Start nor Replace from End ripple."

But Replace does.

[Craig Seeman] "D key works fine for me."

Set one IN and two OUTs. See what happens.


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Craig Seeman
Re: The new way of editing
on Jul 14, 2011 at 5:51:15 pm

[Michael Aranyshev] "But Replace does."

So one has the option to use Replace to ripple or Replace from Start to not ripple. Choice is good.

[Michael Aranyshev] "Set one IN and two OUTs. See what happens."

And how have you managed to set an Out without an In, in FCPX?
You can use either the Playhead or the Skimmer as an edit point in the Timeline.



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Michael Aranyshev
Re: The new way of editing
on Jul 14, 2011 at 6:00:20 pm

[Craig Seeman] "And how have you managed to set an Out without an In, in FCPX?"

Bingo! I didn't manage. No way. Thats' why they had to come up with Shift-D to emulate this scenario. The problem is Shift-D doesn't work right too.


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Craig Seeman
Re: The new way of editing
on Jul 14, 2011 at 6:11:32 pm

[Michael Aranyshev] "Thats' why they had to come up with Shift-D to emulate this scenario. The problem is Shift-D doesn't work right too."

Shift-D
Overwrite Backtimed
How is that not working?



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Michael Aranyshev
Re: The new way of editing
on Jul 14, 2011 at 6:59:40 pm

It only works with playhead. You can have marks on either source or master, not both.


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Rick Lang
Re: The new way of editing
on Jul 14, 2011 at 5:54:50 pm

You and Craig are both right depending on the duration of the source clip or range you have selected. If the source clip range is shorter than the target clip in the Timeline, it will try to fill by extending the source clip if source frames are available and there is no ripple.

According to Help:
Note: In the case of Replace from Start and Replace from End, if the source clip selection is a range selection with a shorter duration than that of the target clip and there is sufficient extra media, Final Cut Pro extends the duration of the source selection to match the target clip duration. The resulting storyline duration does not change.

But if that condition is not met, there can be a ripple, whether the replace is made by dragging and selecting from the pop-up or via keyboard shortcuts.

Rick Lang

iMac 27” 2.8GHz i7 16GB


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