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a really good quote

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Aindreas Gallagher
a really good quote
on Jul 13, 2011 at 9:33:12 pm

its from rob tinsworth on the FCP forum. It's like about two posts down, but I thought its worth re-posting.

http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/8/1137965



"So I should be all over FCP-X and a new editing revolution right? Nope. I edit with pictures, not keywords. Even if I could get over the issues with collaboration/one big project/one big library/no video output; even if they fixed all those in a bells and whistles FCP-XI, I simply don't agree that an edit should be driven by words.

It's the very 'inefficiency' of FCP7 that immerses me in a project. It's endlessly scrubbing backwards and forwards through the rushes that means that when I'm recutting a scene, I know there's that shot of that thing, which I never thought I'd use, which an assistant editor wouldn't have flagged, which I wouldn't even have looked at, but which turns out to be just the shot I need for this sequence.

At a certain point in any edit, I get the feeling that I have the film in my head, like there's an index in my brain. I think that's much more powerful than metadata. Editing is about pictures."


doesn't it ring true with anyone? that we're being forced into stupidly autistic OCD organisation methods by a bunch of self regarding OCD asbergers software engineers?


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Chris Kenny
Re: a really good quote
on Jul 13, 2011 at 10:07:13 pm

This criticism makes absolutely no sense. It's easier to visually scrub through footage in FCP X than in FCP 7.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Gary Huff
Re: a really good quote
on Jul 13, 2011 at 10:26:24 pm

I think what he is saying is that instead of easily scrubbing through footage, where it might be possible to miss a shot or just not grasp the entirety of it, he prefers to have to really dig through it so that he is intimately familiar with all of it, should some really small and seemingly mundane shot/segment/take/ect turn out to be really important.


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Chris Kenny
Re: a really good quote
on Jul 13, 2011 at 10:31:18 pm

[Gary Huff] "I think what he is saying is that instead of easily scrubbing through footage, where it might be possible to miss a shot or just not grasp the entirety of it, he prefers to have to really dig through it so that he is intimately familiar with all of it, should some really small and seemingly mundane shot/segment/take/ect turn out to be really important."

That's not my reading of what's being said. It doesn't account for the apparent antipathy being expressed toward keywording features.

Anyway, it's kind of silly to argue that FCP X is worse because if gives you the option of scrubbing through footage more efficiently.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: a really good quote
on Jul 13, 2011 at 10:35:23 pm

your selectively reductive arguments are, as ever, a weird joy to behold. Here's a better quote from his piece.

"I simply don't agree that an edit should be driven by words."

the application is like the kind of OCD, I make lists everyday, tagging everything organisational app you see all over the appstore.
OCD asbergers people love that kind of stuff. OCD asbergers people devised the organisational restructuring of this app. OCD asbergers types spend their whole lives talking about their OCD asbergers tagging schemes. This application would have me tagging my toes - I know - I can just drag to an existing tag - that's a bit like a bin, but this godawful app has me popping up that tag dialog box an awful lot. It is word driven

An opened bin say, in its own window has visual and spatial organisation.

(would you look? now we're all talking like editing software is a 22nd century heuristic physics lesson!)

- but now I can't look inside a bin, because there is no bin, because the Asbergers OCD types in the iTunes software team just shoved huge wads of OCD asbergers - colour code my socks - tagging down my throat.

Its not really about the scrubber. although I do find the scrubber pretty annoying after a while.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: a really good quote
on Jul 13, 2011 at 10:48:37 pm

oops. I'm actually replying to chris there, or well, tagging in general.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Chris Kenny
Re: a really good quote
on Jul 13, 2011 at 10:50:04 pm

Yeah, right. Tagging, a key feature of virtually every modern social networking/media platform, is only for "OCD asbergers" types. Also, apparently, for soccer moms, since aren't they the target audience for FCP X?

These objections seem to get sillier by the day.

--
Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: a really good quote
on Jul 13, 2011 at 10:56:30 pm

yeah, I know, I'm overstating it, and really the new tagging everything that moves thing evokes highly personal responses, but frankly chris, what is appropriate for your photo collection on "modern social networking/media platform" Facebook may not be appropriate as the sole organisational scheme for an editing system.

And it is an OCD asbergers type thing. Or at least OCD asbergers types are the ones who really relish it. That said walter murch colour codes the hell out of his wall cards so maybe he likes it. Wait - does walter murch use this thing?


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Nelson Torres
Re: a really good quote
on Jul 13, 2011 at 11:50:49 pm

FCPX sure is an Ass Berger.


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Owen Wexler
Re: a really good quote
on Jul 13, 2011 at 11:38:56 pm

I work in television... inefficiency is a bad word here, period.

Cinematographer - Editor - Motion Graphics Artist - Colorist

http://www.owenbwexler.com


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: a really good quote
on Jul 13, 2011 at 11:52:05 pm

I worked in tellyland too for about 12 years, still do on a per client basis - I'm pretty efficient - I think he's kind of describing his own process of synthesising the edit, its not necessarily inefficient.
He just maybe resents the tagathon FCPX has become.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Douglas K. Dempsey
Re: a really good quote
on Jul 14, 2011 at 12:12:26 am

Well I work in docu and I agree wholeheartedly with the methodology of scrubbing and thumbing through shots, looking for who-knows-what, and then it hits you. In fact the great Walter Murch also talks about this process...

This is a very common thing in visual editing: you categorize shots according to what you THINK they are about or how you will use them, but inevitably you are stuck with a narrative problem and you sift around until you find -- exactly as the commenter describes -- a shot that NO ONE thought would ever end up in the movie, and it becomes the perfect piece, re-purposed in a way not imaginable during ingest/organization.

HOWEVER, guys, if you ingest and smart-collection/keyword your stuff using FCPX, which I think IS a great way to organize material, you will benefit from the meta-data organization system of the new app for 95% of your work.

When it comes time to troll through all your collections in search of that random "miracle" shot, well you are free to poke around and scrub through everything waiting for inspiration to hit.

I don't feel that any kind of FCP7 "inefficiency" ever made me accidentally work more creatively. The process described was ONLY done when I needed to solve something, and then yes, I might scrub through EVERYTHING on the theory that there is a shot somewhere that has been ignored but will now save me.

Doug D


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Keith Koby
Re: a really good quote
on Jul 14, 2011 at 2:01:56 am

This is one of the more ridiculous things i've heard on the subject. If you are going talk picture, then why would you even think of bashing fcp x? Besides the organizational stuff, X is going to give you the editor something you never had in 7. That is the ability to dare: To try something new out without the penalty of killing time to see your results.

To bash metadata is a shallow, shallow argument and tells me that the original poster hasn't spent any time actually playing with X. The new tools for tagging whole clips or parts of clips and sorting those tags into bins is extremely useful.

Keith Koby
Sr. Director Post-Production Engineering
iNDEMAND NETWORKS
Howard TV!/Movies On Demand/iNDEMAND Pay-Per-View/iNDEMAND 3D


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Tom Matthies
Re: a really good quote
on Jul 14, 2011 at 2:54:19 am

I just wish that they simply kept what works and fixed what didn't rather than reinventing the wheel. It's a nice perfectly round wheel. It's just that it faces sideways from the direction that I want to go...
Tom

E=MC2+/-2db


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Keith Koby
Re: a really good quote
on Jul 14, 2011 at 3:14:56 am

patience. it will be all good. in the meantime, 7 still works. I used it all day and so did every one else in my facility.

Keith Koby
Sr. Director Post-Production Engineering
iNDEMAND NETWORKS
Howard TV!/Movies On Demand/iNDEMAND Pay-Per-View/iNDEMAND 3D


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John Pale
Re: a really good quote
on Jul 14, 2011 at 2:54:55 am

While we are at it, why don't we just go back to 1 inch VTRs in a linear bay...

I always found the best shots rewinding the damn things to the beginning to change reels....I used to do my best screening and logging making dupe reels so I could do a dissolve.


There's a lot to justifiably complain about .... even more to be angry about in this FCPX debacle...but this is one of the things it actually does well.


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Julian Bowman
Re: a really good quote
on Jul 14, 2011 at 6:44:31 pm

"X is going to give you the editor something you never had in 7. That is the ability to dare:"




lmao.

Sorry, didn't realise I couldn't dare in FCP7... f*** Apple might sue me for misuse of their software.


And my real tuppence. I am a solo-show on the whole. I shoot what I edit. When I capture I bung my shots into folders I name and I know what is in there. I do enjoy scrubbing through my shots and discovering things I may have not considered using, which is what the original quote was about, but I would never tag my shots, because I know them (on the whole) and like putting them where I want to put them, in neat little folders in a vertical list.

So, X wins there then. Oh, wait, no, that entire argument is based upon me wasting ages tagging loads of clips that I couldn't log and capture directly into X in the first place. Er, i'll be half way through my edit by the time you've stopped playing with that tagging thing (and that's on a 32bit app).

Personally I don't care if some people like X, good for you. Buy it. Use it. But stop defending it as some revolutionary advance of editing. It's a different way of editing which doesn't make the previous way of editing arcane or redundant. And stop saying that in X years it will be 'awesome' because a) you don't know that and b) at the moment it's pretty shite by all accounts... and I waited two frigging years for this 'awesome' upgrade and I can't even use it as a shite upgrade.


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Gary Pollard
Re: a really good quote
on Jul 14, 2011 at 6:14:50 am

Unfortunately, it reminds me of the argument I heard years ago that:

"I like my processor working slowly. It gives me more time to think"

____

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"



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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: a really good quote
on Jul 14, 2011 at 10:17:02 am

yeah, I take it back - it doesn't make whole hooting amounts of sense maybe.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Tom Brooks
Re: a really good quote
on Jul 14, 2011 at 2:58:01 pm

[Aindreas Gallagher] "doesn't it ring true with anyone? that we're being forced into stupidly autistic OCD organisation methods by a bunch of self regarding OCD asbergers software engineers?"

Your terminology is offensive. Grow up or evolve a little, will you?


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Aindreas Gallagher
Re: a really good quote
on Jul 14, 2011 at 3:24:48 pm

yeah - i formally take back the autism crack - although maybe not the OCD thing, Jeffery Harrell had a go at the inability to simply make piles of things - I'm not saying its a well developed point, but that there cannot be a container before there is a word - tagging is a different beast to making sometimes loose piles of things, you feel a different kind of intent carefully assembling tags, I don't personally feel I'm throwing things around as much.

I do know tagging is essentially best practise - I use it pretty thoroughly in google reader - outside of me thinking of mean hurtful things to say to apple software engineers - like that they are OCD asbergers types wrecking my editing application - yes thats right - my editing application and mine alone, it belongs to me! - outside of all that the tagging of everything and its mother in FCP rubs me wrong - but I have no real intellectual justification for that, its a purely personal thing.


http://www.ogallchoir.net
promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics


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Chris Stevens
Re: a really good quote
on Jul 14, 2011 at 4:10:54 pm

"It's the very 'inefficiency' of FCP7 that immerses me in a project. It's endlessly scrubbing backwards and forwards through the rushes that means that when I'm recutting a scene, I know there's that shot of that thing, which I never thought I'd use, which an assistant editor wouldn't have flagged, which I wouldn't even have looked at, but which turns out to be just the shot I need for this sequence."

It's not an original thought. Walter Murch worried about this exact same thing when switching from a flatbed to a computer editing system. You can read about it in his wonderful book, In The Blink of an Eye.

Murch argued that the old flatbeds forced you to scan through loads of footage to reach the material you needed. Because of this, sometimes you would come across footage you might otherwise have discarded, or you might subconsciously absorb images to generate new ideas.

Of course, Murch then switched to Final Cut Pro. So we have to assume the convenience outweighed the Zen qualities of the flatbed for him.

Imagine how much more thoughtful our editing would be if we hand-drew every frame like a Disney cell-animator. Then we'd really get 'immersed' in a project. Personally I'm going to embrace the evolution of technology and use FCPX. If I want to get 'immersed' I can always print out the rushes, sellotape them all end to end and run them across my lap, simulating a flatbed.

Let's leave the past behind.


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Tracy Smith
Re: a really good quote
on Jul 14, 2011 at 7:31:06 pm

Here's a quote from me, "Editing has nothing to do with your NLE!" How you tell your story is irrelevant to what tool you are using to put it together. I am totally disgusted at how Apple has gone about the implementation of FCPX. But could I use the program as is to tell a really good story? Yes. Could I use AVID, Premiere, Media 100 Imovie or windows movie maker? Yes. Could I open two windows of Quicktime 7 and manually do it. Yes. Could I go back to tape to tape and still do it? Yes. The issues at hand are how hard is it going to be to input material or output it? Can I color correct with total control? Can I mix audio? How easy is it to conform to final outputs? I tell my clients all the time "Go ahead name your screen!"
Apple and Final Cut are an emotional issue with me too. I helped lots of folks decide to use it. It's not that they won't get it right but when? And I am no longer waiting for them. We need to be able to work in the real world which means anything from Beta Tape to Blue Ray. From Flash to H.264 Quick Times. From WMV to AVI. From WAV, to AIFF to AAC. It is not up to Apple to decide how and what we produce to serve their interest. We did that. We bought their machines back when Gil totally fracced up Apple prior to Mr. Jobs return. We did our evangelical bit. We were the creatives Apple Computer built their business on. I will not as a business person count on Apple to serve me. They will not anymore. They are a consumer mobile tech company now. We are professional image makers and storytellers. Apple computers and software are simply tools. Nothing more. Apple is a company whose computers we may use. Whose mobile tech we may use. Whose software we may use. Whose distribution we may use. What Apple doesn't get anymore is my over enthusiastic fan boy loyalty. And I promise no more loyalty to a brand out of this Producer. I am going to do my job. And for now I will use all the tools I can to make something happen so my client and my audience enjoy it.



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