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Just A Quick Question

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David Mathis
Just A Quick Question
on Oct 27, 2018 at 11:25:06 pm

Once the forum name is officially changed how can we get more participation? This is a sincere question. I love this forum and want to see it thrive.


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Scott Witthaus
Re: Just A Quick Question
on Oct 29, 2018 at 10:44:21 am

Good question. IMHO the name “Apple Talk” makes no sense. With that name, I am not even sure what topics will be discussed or how the new name will attract more active members. We shall see...

Scott Witthaus
Visual Storyteller - FCPX, Premiere
https://vimeo.com/channels/1322525
Managing Partner, Low Country Creative LLC
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Paul Neumann
Re: Just A Quick Question
on Oct 29, 2018 at 3:17:10 pm

The Granny Smith Cultivar originated in Eastwood, New South Wales, Australia (now a suburb of Sydney) in 1868. Its discoverer, Maria Ann Smith, had emigrated to the district from Beckley, East Sussex in 1839 with her husband Thomas. They purchased a small orchard in the area in 1855-1856 and began cultivating fruit, for which the area was a well known centre in colonial Australia. Smith had numerous children and was a prominent figure in the district, earning the nickname "Granny" Smith in her advanced years.


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Scott Witthaus
Re: Just A Quick Question
on Oct 29, 2018 at 4:12:21 pm

Here is the new release from Pillsbury: https://www.pillsbury.com/everyday-eats/desserts/pies-tarts/how-to-make-app...

Scott Witthaus
Visual Storyteller - FCPX, Premiere
https://vimeo.com/channels/1322525
Managing Partner, Low Country Creative LLC
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Michael Gissing
Re: Just A Quick Question
on Oct 29, 2018 at 10:42:11 pm
Last Edited By Michael Gissing on Oct 29, 2018 at 10:44:41 pm

"The Granny Smith Cultivar originated in Eastwood, New South Wales". As a kid growing up in Sydney, not far from Eastwood, I of course knew this story.

A history of Apples can be found in Michael Pollan's excellent book "The Botany of Desire". From the original trees endemic to Kazakhstan many cultivars have appeared. Apples from seed are not true to type. Hence when a good variety turns up it is then grafted onto root stock. The book also talks about tulips, marijuana and potatoes so there's some thing for everyone.


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Michael Gissing
Re: Just A Quick Question
on Oct 29, 2018 at 10:29:15 pm

[Scott Witthaus]"Good question. IMHO the name “Apple Talk” makes no sense"

Which is why after a long series of debating on this forum that name was rejected and numerous more appropriate names were proposed. I'm keen to see what the final name will be and the continuing of intelligent debate.


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Scott Witthaus
Re: Just A Quick Question
on Oct 30, 2018 at 5:56:06 pm

[Michael Gissing] " that name was rejected and numerous more appropriate names were proposed. "

And I guess ignored?

Scott Witthaus
Visual Storyteller - FCPX, Premiere
https://vimeo.com/channels/1322525
Managing Partner, Low Country Creative LLC
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Michael Gissing
Re: Just A Quick Question
on Nov 1, 2018 at 1:15:33 am
Last Edited By Michael Gissing on Nov 1, 2018 at 1:19:51 am

[Scott Witthaus] "And I guess ignored?"

No. There was a couple of extensive posts where this was discussed and in the end Kathlyn Lindeboom came up with a suggested compromise name - "ALL NLEs: The Great Debate".

https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/102528

Not sure how you missed this as you were active in the thread that day. Or are you still referencing Ron's sticky thread dated before this? Pretty positive Kathlyn's name will be the winner but we will see when the web site changes

EDIT: Sorry, I just read Tim's post and lets all just wait and see rather than speculate.


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Mark Suszko
Re: Just A Quick Question
on Oct 29, 2018 at 3:59:36 pm

You ever read "Stone Soup"?


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Just A Quick Question
on Oct 29, 2018 at 6:30:20 pm

[David Mathis] "Once the forum name is officially changed how can we get more participation? This is a sincere question. I love this forum and want to see it thrive."

Talk to everyone with civility. The toxicity in this forum comes from the users, not the name. No personal attacks, no childish rants, no condescending passive/aggressive BS, etc., The mods have to enforce it though and bounce people that refuse to play by the rules.


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David Mathis
Re: Just A Quick Question
on Oct 29, 2018 at 7:17:03 pm

Andrew, thank you. The rants are definitely a challenge and I do my best to civil towards others. It saddens me to say this but Facebook groups seem to be more active than this one. I have had to perform admin duties in one group for the reasons you just described and had to block several fake accounts from joining the group. Thankfully the noise is not all that bad. You are one of the best members in here Andrew and always love seeing your posts!


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Bob Zelin
Re: Just A Quick Question
on Oct 29, 2018 at 10:20:29 pm

Hi Dave -
please tell me WHAT Facebook groups you are referring to.

I must be missing something. And as for Reddit - are these all High School students ?

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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David Mathis
Re: Just A Quick Question
on Oct 29, 2018 at 10:31:39 pm

Final Cut Pro X User Group
Professional Final Cut Pro X Editors

Those two groups I frequent the most besides this forum. I don’t use Reddit so I have no clue about them.


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greg janza
Re: Just A Quick Question
on Oct 30, 2018 at 3:47:39 pm

And for Premiere:
Adobe Premiere Pro Editors on Facebook
Moving to Adobe Premiere Pro

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James Culbertson
Re: Just A Quick Question
on Oct 30, 2018 at 6:57:44 pm

Can anyone recommend a good FB Resolve group?


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David Mathis
Re: Just A Quick Question
on Oct 30, 2018 at 7:27:23 pm

Here is one group:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/DaVinci.Resolve.User.Group/

Have you tried the Resolve forum on here? Just curious.


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James Culbertson
Re: Just A Quick Question
on Oct 30, 2018 at 8:04:37 pm

[David Mathis] "Have you tried the Resolve forum on here?"

Yes, every once in awhile. I find myself getting annoyed by discussion boards generally as compared to FB groups and email listervs. This particular discussion board is one exception.


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greg janza
Re: Just A Quick Question
on Oct 30, 2018 at 3:53:34 pm

[Bob Zelin] "I must be missing something. And as for Reddit - are these all High School students ? "

Sites like Reddit are much more powerful than people think. As of March 2018, Reddit is the third most popular site for U.S. internet traffic. This is according to an Amazon subsidiary called Alexa (not that Alexa) which monitors web traffic.

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Bob Zelin
Re: Just A Quick Question
on Oct 30, 2018 at 9:35:08 pm

thanks Greg -
I am not saying that Reddit is not popular -
Hey, I know that Snapchat is really popular if you want to email a picture of your "junk" to your girlfriend and have it disappear before her parents see it -
But I am looking for PROFESSIONAL users, not a kid whose mom bought him a MacBook Pro, and he can't figure out why he can't playback 8K on his internal drive. Reddit appears to be flooded with those types of users, and not professionals asking professional questions.

But thanks !
Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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greg janza
Re: Just A Quick Question
on Oct 30, 2018 at 10:50:00 pm

[Bob Zelin] " Reddit appears to be flooded with those types of users, and not professionals asking professional questions. "

You may be right and you raise a good question. I don't personally use Reddit for anything related to my profession..

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Andrew Kimery
Re: Just A Quick Question
on Oct 30, 2018 at 4:55:10 pm

Thanks David, I try to add more signal than noise, but I know I've said some things in the past that were more personal instead of staying more on topic.

I think the FB groups get more traffic because FB is FB. It's a one stop shop for everything where as for sites like the COW it's a more pointed journey to visit. Also, FB group numbers don't always correlate to 'active' members. I belong to all the big Avid, PPro, and X FB groups but I rarely post in any of them.


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David Mathis
Re: Just A Quick Question
on Oct 30, 2018 at 5:12:01 pm

I agree. Currently the group I help with has 7,358 members with just over 300 being added in the last week alone. However, only a handful of members actually participate and some of the posts come fom new members. Me, one other admin and a moderator actually interact with other members. A few of the members on the COW are over there as well. While it is nice to see large membership numbers it would be nice for more members to participate. I gets boring when only 10 people actually say anything. LOL

I miss hearing from John Davidson and Charlie Austin in this group. Another member that I love hearing from is David Lawerence. Guys, please come back!

Whatever the new forum name is it will be nice to see more participants in here.


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greg janza
Re: Just A Quick Question
on Oct 30, 2018 at 5:23:36 pm

While I'll be interested to see how the revamped Cow works, it does seem as though the traffic is moving towards the FB groups. There's a much quicker response time overall on the FB groups and that drives more activity.

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Neil Goodman
Re: Just A Quick Question
on Oct 30, 2018 at 10:46:10 pm

dont really get the name change tbh. Seems like what we have is appropriate for the discussion at hand.

Does this mean that we cant compare FCPX to other NLE's anymore or is the name change just a name and out topics can stay the same?

Also for a forum about to be named apple talk - not on post yet about new Mac Mini's, Air's etc today?

Maybe we dont need a forum at all.


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James Culbertson
Re: Just A Quick Question
on Oct 30, 2018 at 11:09:18 pm

[Neil Goodman] "dont really get the name change tbh. Seems like what we have is appropriate for the discussion at hand."

It's a recognition that FCP 10 has matured and there is no longer a need to debate its place among professional NLEs... the current name no longer applies. However, a more appropriate name like, "NLEs, the Debate" would probably be better than "Apple Talk" and could continue to supply endless hours of opinionated chatter, along with the occasional gem of insight into all things editing.


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Tim Wilson
Re: Just A Quick Question
on Oct 31, 2018 at 3:08:12 am

[James Culbertson] "It's a recognition that FCP 10 has matured and there is no longer a need to debate its place among professional NLEs... the current name no longer applies."

Yes, and some more.

Debate is out. No more debates, period. The "There Can Be Only One" ship sailed long ago. Most people use more than one, and even if someone prefers one, it's not a debate. It's a preference.

More broadly, in the spirit of allowing debate, we also allowed a far longer leash here than was appropriate to the heritage of our site. Creative COW is a HELP site, not fight club. Yes, the broader parameters here have extended well beyond help, but they went too far. Anyone who wants a debate from here on is going to have to go somewhere else.

That said, also speaking broadly, we've always wanted to have a forum where pretty much up everything was up for conversation, and this was as close as we've come.


[Scott Witthaus] "[Michael Gissing] " that name was rejected and numerous more appropriate names were proposed. "

And I guess ignored?"


That's not fair at all. We've never commented on every single thread about the name of the forum (there's typically a couple per year), but we listen, and indeed, we've changed the forum's name multiple times as a result.

Even if we go another way, or indeed stick with Apple Talk, it won't be because we've ignored anyone. We talk about this stuff constantly, which is after the first six names, plus the next one, there will surely be more.

I'll say that while I'm currently disinclined to go with Apple Talk, I haven't heard the right one yet, and underscore again that it won't have Debate in the name. Conversation, yes. Compare/contrast, yes. Energetic engagement, yes.

Debate, no. Be nice. You have been warned. 😂

But I feel like you guys are being intentionally disingenuous about Apple Talk being so far off the mark. The longest threads here have been FCPX threads, for sure, plus some good comparison threads, and a couple of long ones about approaches to editing, and yeah, a couple of Adobe ones -- so far, so good -- but after that, they're virtually ALL about Apple, and you know it. YOU KNOW IT.

I don't get why you're making me go through this, but I'm going to do it anyway. Just from the past year or two:

iMac Pro or next year's Mac Pro? 147 posts
Apple drops ProApps from corporate definition 129 posts
A Bridge Too Far (about Apple's approach to updates) 123 posts
wwdc 86 posts
RED 8k camera, a sign of things to come from apple? 74 posts
So, about that Apple event.... 74 posts
Lightworks Mac public beta (I'm including this because no Mac, no story) 93 posts
Randy Ubillos retires from Apple 69 posts
Reactions to today's Apple Event 69 posts
Will FCX be around for a while? (Definitely talking about APPLE on this thread, not fcpx per se) 65 posts
Apple apparently keeps stumbling it's way to success, somehow 😉 63 posts
1,000 days since the last Mac Pro update 57 posts
The new Mac Pro VS MSI? 57 posts (although I'm thinking about killing a few posts on this thread.) 😂
iMac Pro 12/14 56 posts
Apple, FCPX and Secrecy (again, about APPLE, not fcpx per se) 56 posts
Waiting for Apple again. And again. And again ... 55 posts
The Verge Explains Apple Photos 54 posts
The iMac Pro Looks Interesting 53 posts
Apple and the relentless pursuit of excellence ... 42 posts
Apple is getting ready for the new MacPros? 40 posts


Plus gazillions of shorter ones, pasted in no particular order:

2013 Franken Mac Pro Tube
Apple to Ditch Intel?
A depressing visit to the Apple Store
17 Quad iMac to Octo Core iMac Pro
nMP or iMac for 4K
Apple and Thunderbolt 3
iPad vs. Surface Pro
iMac Pro vs PC performance
Hackintosh
NVIDIA and Macs again someday?
Is anyone ready for Thunderbolt 3?
OT - is the "new" Mac Pro a failure (gotta love that "OT")
2016 MacBook / Pro
Monitoring out with new Mac Pro?
Apple's latest innovation
Why no iOS control surface app?
2013 nMac Pro with eGPU?
27/30" monitors for new Mac Pro (w/ D700s)?
The sad state of Macintosh hardware
New tube / no tube….
New tube?
30th Anniversary of Mac film shot entirely on iPhones
Mac Pro- Ars Technica review
Questions to those considering the new Mac Pro
Apple's slapdash approach to image processing
Prores delivery
Apple patents 3D editing
Geekbench of 4 core Mac Pro
Race against the phones
Keeping the old Mac Pro breathing

This is barely scratching the surface AND YOU KNOW IT.

So make all the jokes you want, I can take it, but please don't act like we haven't in fact gone through the entire 7 year history of the forum and counted all these up, because we have.

Which is to say again, we ignore NOTHING. Even when we wish we could. 😂

In the end, though, I'd rather talk about fruit than debate anything, so maybe that's reason enough to stick with Apple Talk.

I'll start another thread on the forum name, as well as provide an update on our development progress. I'll also make some other replies to other topics on this thread, a number of which have been very much on my mind....

More soon,

Yr pal.
Timmy
🐮


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David Mathis
Re: Just A Quick Question
on Oct 31, 2018 at 4:50:25 am

Tim,

I am perfectly fine with the word debate being left out of the forum name. I sincerely hope I did not stir up a hornets nest with my previous comments.

Here are some other names I have thought about:
NLE Talk
The Editors Lounge
The Post Lounge

I will participate in whatever the new forum is. The last thing I want to see is another fight club. The noise level in here has been deafening at times. Regardless of what direction this and other forums go in my goal is to help others not be part of the problem. I need to be more active in this and other forums. I am going to take a break for a few days from here.


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Steve Connor
Re: Just A Quick Question
on Oct 31, 2018 at 3:29:42 pm

[Tim Wilson] "I'll start another thread on the forum name,"

Please no!! at this rate you may as well start a separate forum called "what shall we call the former Apple Final Cut Pro X forum"

Just call it "Dave" and be done with it! People are being waaaay to sensitive about the name!


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Tony West
Re: Just A Quick Question
on Oct 31, 2018 at 4:06:31 pm

Name aside, the forum has lost steam as to be expected. It's like a great television series, no matter how good it is, it can only go so far.

The passion that fueled the forum was born out of the early anger and frustration and that's not something that is sustainable over the long term. Many of the posters have moved on.

I found it a pleasant distraction from the craziness in the news and enjoyed reading some of the post.

It was lightning in a bottle for the Cow and unique for that stretch.

I don't expect to see it again anytime soon. No matter the name.

"You gotta keep the devil way down in the hole"


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David Mathis
Re: Just A Quick Question
on Oct 31, 2018 at 4:30:45 pm

I believe that the reason some have left was due to the noise level and I agree that one word needs to be left out of the new forum name. The issue was that some of the "debates" were more like a civil war. A distraction from the insanity of the real world is nice until someone gets thrown under the bus. Yes, there are some posters in here who think they are cute by giving others a hard time. It does not always turn out well.

There is one Adobe forum that is no more. That debate has been settled years ago. It is time to move on. The last thing I want to see on here is food fights and degrading remarks. If anyone wants to see that then they should watch politics. By the way, I saw some very ugly remarks in a Facebook group once. Someone kept saying use Fusion in The Foundry Nuke group. That same person made disparaging remarks about people from another nation. That person has since been banned and their garbage remarks were deleted. I even had to deal with a troll in another group and nearly had to ban them.

As much as I want to see this forum thrive I want to see quality content not food fights.


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greg janza
Re: Just A Quick Question
on Oct 31, 2018 at 5:03:30 pm

[David Mathis] "There is one Adobe forum that is no more. That debate has been settled years ago. "

I agree with David's thoughts. There are some challenging issues ahead for the Cow community. In a short amount of time, the Facebook forums have become very robust in membership and activity. The Facebook platform is also better suited for quick and easy response. The Facebook groups also have a nice distinction that there's very little debate and instead most conversation is solution or advice oriented with very little trolling.

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Steve Connor
Re: Just A Quick Question
on Oct 31, 2018 at 5:46:06 pm

[greg janza] " The Facebook groups also have a nice distinction that there's very little debate and instead most conversation is solution or advice oriented with very little trolling."

And the same questions being asked over and over and over again!!


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David Mathis
Re: Just A Quick Question
on Oct 31, 2018 at 6:32:36 pm

We also have people who don’t answer the question(s) when they are wanting to join. I guess using the search box is too much trouble for some people. 🙄

Other trends I have noticed:

People asking questions that are vague or unclear 🤷‍♂️
People not sharing screenshots or giving system details ⁉️
Asking questions that a Google search or basic knowledge of the software that will the answer they are looking for 🤦‍♂️
Smart a** remarks which had to be removed by me or another moderator 👨‍💼

Yes, we actually had someone ask how to get Adobe software in a Final Cut Pro X group. Go figure. 🤭

Then we have some members you have to have take a grain of salt with when reading their posts.

As for trolls, one person was saying how Final Cut and Apple was for rich kids and just plain old good fashion bashing nonsense. They got put into moderation and I got called a name for doing my job.

In some ways Facebook groups are alright but we have those same issues on any forum regardless of what site it’s on.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Just A Quick Question
on Oct 31, 2018 at 7:02:48 pm

[greg janza] "The Facebook groups also have a nice distinction that there's very little debate and instead most conversation is solution or advice oriented with very little trolling."

Out of curiosity which FB groups are you a part of? AFAIK I know I'm part of the largest groups for Avid, X, PPro and Resolve and as long as you keep the Avid talk in Avid or the X talk in X then all is good. Once someone brings up NLE A in NLE B's group then the knives come out.

In my experience, and this is the same whether it's forums or FB groups, if the community his homogeneous then there is very little drama. Once you introduce diversity then the potential for drama escalates and it's up to the forum members (and the mods) to make sure it doesn't get out of hand.

The heterogenous nature of this forums is what I like, no love, about it. There is representation for ALL the NLEs so we can have discussions that encompass all the NLEs. I've yet to come across another forum that's so inherently inclusive and diverse.

I think the past execution, not the premise, of this forum is its shortcoming.


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greg janza
Re: Just A Quick Question
on Nov 1, 2018 at 3:28:06 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Out of curiosity which FB groups are you a part of? "

In addition to the two I listed earlier in this thread there's also "Ask an Editor."

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Doug Metz
Re: Just A Quick Question
on Nov 1, 2018 at 10:53:29 pm

[David Mathis] "I love this forum and want to see it thrive."

Completely with you on this.

You see, I've a bit of a quandary... I deleted my FB account over a year ago due to philosophical, practical, and security issues with the site. I don't plan to go back, but also don't relish the idea that good and useful conversations with people familiar with topics I care about might one day only exist there.

Gives me the willies just thinking about it. Plus, having been raised in Wisconsin in a dairy family, cows are my people!

;^)

Doug Metz

Anode


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David Mathis
Re: Just A Quick Question
on Nov 2, 2018 at 12:12:16 am

I completely agree with you. Unfortunately some groups, including the one I am admin in, is not where they need to be.

Issues:

People not being familiar with the fundamental basics of the software is one of the most common things I see on a nearly daily basis. This week we had someone ask about black fonts. I let them know they can change the color but they did it with the color board of all things. The thread started to get some troll posts which had to be removed and I turned off commenting before the cess pool got any deeper. We have questions about what certain things represent. Almost no one uses the search box. No matter how many times someone is told to learn the basics, watch a You Tube video or do an internet search we eventually have the same questions pop up. It is getting to the point where those posts will have to be deleted eventually.

We also have the issue of trolls to have to dog pile on a thread. While this is usually not an issue it does happen. Despite putting those trolls in moderation or temporarily disabling their ability to comment they are at it again. I don’t like the idea of putting strict policies in place but that may no longer be an option. At least the COW has the ability to require post approval on new members before their direct post is immediate. Facebook groups do not have that tool available.

Fake accounts are another problem. Early in October we had over 100 fake accounts requesting to join. Me and other admin had our hands full for two weeks dealing with this. It was not fun.

I am going to be more active in this forum and likely call it quits with the Facebook groups. The stress is getting to be too much for me. Sorry for the lengthy post folks.


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Michael Gissing
Re: Just A Quick Question
on Nov 2, 2018 at 12:19:35 am

[David Mathis] "I am going to be more active in this forum and likely call it quits with the Facebook groups."

I'm one of a group of admins in a Facebook page for local film makers. As it grew bigger, it started attracting scammers and trolls so I get all that extra work required to keep these forums healthy and useful.

I've always appreciated the enormous and thankless work that goes on behind the scenes here at the Cow to have kept this forum functional, relevant and robust without bullying or slander.


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David Mathis
Re: Just A Quick Question
on Nov 2, 2018 at 12:28:24 am

Thank you for reading my post. It is a thankless job and occasionally we get called names for doing our job. Like you I appreciate the hard work that Tim and others at the COW do on a daily basis to keep things flowing smoothly. I definitely love reading your posts!


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