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Craig Seeman
Cinema Grade - Denver Riddle - Color Grading Central's new plugin
on Sep 19, 2018 at 4:53:13 pm
Last Edited By Craig Seeman on Sep 19, 2018 at 4:57:23 pm

Cinema Grade - Denver Riddle - Color Grading Central's new plugin
https://cinemagrade.com

I don't know if there's another NLE that has this kind of competition in color grading plugins.
Although this works in Premiere and Resolve as well (a color grading plugin for Resolve... Imagine that).



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Andrew Kimery
Re: Cinema Grade - Denver Riddle - Color Grading Central's new plugin
on Sep 19, 2018 at 10:37:34 pm

[Craig Seeman] "I don't know if there's another NLE that has this kind of competition in color grading plugins."

So... no one likes the builtin tools on X? 😉


[Craig Seeman] " (a color grading plugin for Resolve... Imagine that)"

I've only watched the demo video but I assume the plugin is a vastly more simplified approach than Resolve's built-in tools (which is something that's required IMO if Resolve wants to have broader appeal).

So has Magic Bullet Looks (which arguably pioneered this space) been completely passed by?


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David Cherniack
Re: Cinema Grade - Denver Riddle - Color Grading Central's new plugin
on Sep 19, 2018 at 11:28:40 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "I've only watched the demo video but I assume the plugin is a vastly more simplified approach than Resolve's built-in tools (which is something that's required IMO if Resolve wants to have broader appeal)."

Why stop with Resolve?. Maybe they should release a version for Baselight, too. ☺

I guess they figure that those who are challenged by ability or time will buy it. Probably there will be a few of those and it's a shame that they'll miss all that wonderful, creative capability that exists in Resolve's color toolset.

David
http://AllinOneFilms.com


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Cinema Grade - Denver Riddle - Color Grading Central's new plugin
on Sep 20, 2018 at 4:47:15 am

[David Cherniack] "Why stop with Resolve?. Maybe they should release a version for Baselight, too. ☺

I guess they figure that those who are challenged by ability or time will buy it. Probably there will be a few of those and it's a shame that they'll miss all that wonderful, creative capability that exists in Resolve's color toolset."


I think most people that are in the market for an NLE would prefer a more approachable way to grade than having to learn a high end grading app.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Cinema Grade - Denver Riddle - Color Grading Central's new plugin
on Sep 19, 2018 at 11:50:53 pm

It almost seem the big feature is the masking. I think it's a streamlined version of the vector masking Denver uses in Color Finale although it's "automated." Those panes/stages thingy sort of make the sequence of operation easier. He's marketing emphasis is on speed (ease of use) so it seems like a "quick grade." I don't it replaces anything really in Resolve so much as allows you to do something fast. Now if that data could be passed to Resolve "proper" for more fine tuning it might be a good first pass, have a quick look at my idea pass, to show a client.

In FCPX it looks like he had to differentiate himself from CoreMelt Chromatic. Seeing how it works real world grouping and matching shot to shot would be a real test in that environment.

[Andrew Kimery] "So... no one likes the builtin tools on X? "

It's as if he's trying to make the eye drop selection portion of curves a bit more simplified. It's hard to tell from the videos I've seen but I'm not sure if it provides as much control as FCPX. We'll have to see what the reviews look like or otherwise give it a play. Seems it's priced to persuade and impulse purchase..

There's no cross grade price for Color Finale users and that is a little irksome.



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Bill Davis
Re: Cinema Grade - Denver Riddle - Color Grading Central's new plugin
on Sep 20, 2018 at 7:57:20 am

I’m still the biggest color theory idiot here, but back when the new 10.4 Color Tools came out, it seemed to me that Apple was looking not just at grading as it’s been done in the past, but with building a toolset and interface that will gracefully deal with Rec2020 and the coming world of expanded dynamic range workflows.

My 2-bit theory is that the missing piece is still affordable desktop production suite monitoring.
When the Apple marketing team did their demo at the LACPUG last year, Steve Bayes kept suggesting we NOT look at the iMag system - but instead watch the large (clearly super expensive) deep color monitor they had setup on stage.

My expectation is that the OLED elves are working on fixing this and that we might see some decent priced solutions at NAB 2019.

At that point — and IF the industry goes toward deep color — then I presume the color science in the new tools will be more important.

My observers 2cents.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Cinema Grade - Denver Riddle - Color Grading Central's new plugin
on Sep 20, 2018 at 2:41:23 pm

[Bill Davis] "When the Apple marketing team did their demo at the LACPUG last year, Steve Bayes kept suggesting we NOT look at the iMag system - but instead watch the large (clearly super expensive) deep color monitor they had setup on stage.
My expectation is that the OLED elves are working on fixing this and that we might see some decent priced solutions at NAB 2019."


The problem is not in the screens, but the software that drives them. New iMac Pro screens are very bright, but they are not HDR. Not because of brightness levels, but rather the way that an HDR signal is displayed to a screen. Until that gets fixed/changed/supplemented in the OS or in FCPX, you won't get HDR to a computer display.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: Cinema Grade - Denver Riddle - Color Grading Central's new plugin
on Sep 21, 2018 at 5:09:56 am
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Sep 21, 2018 at 5:10:36 am

[Oliver Peters] "The problem is not in the screens, but the software that drives them. "

Well, if you are watching a grade that can manipulate up to 10,000 nits of luma range - on a screen that can only display 100 nits max - that seems like it would be a pretty serious issue.

The most easily understandable holy grail of this stuff is letting a desktop user do with motion video - what we’ve been able to do with RAW stills for decades.

Or hopefully even better!

Improved highlight and shadow recovery, is something we all want. And if HDR can ride along that would be great too.

But I’m just not seeing the monitor folks offering that very much as yet.

Time will tell.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Cinema Grade - Denver Riddle - Color Grading Central's new plugin
on Sep 21, 2018 at 12:36:11 pm

[Bill Davis] "Well, if you are watching a grade that can manipulate up to 10,000 nits of luma range - on a screen that can only display 100 nits max - that seems like it would be a pretty serious issue."

There are no commercial displays capable of 10,000 nits. That's a theoretical Dolby max. Most screens right now are at about 1,000 nits and iMacPro screens claim 500. Right now when you grade HDR in FCPX, Resolve, or Premiere on an iMacPro screen, you are still limited to a peak of 100, because of how the software talks to the screen. Not because of the hardware itself.

Even though you can work in a standard that's capable of hitting 10,000, no common HDR grades are being done to that high of a level anyway. So for several years at least, HDR is going to be considered to be 1,000 nits. HDR theatrical levels are actually a lot lower than for video.

But, when you do HDR, you cannot saturate the full screen with the max nits - for example, a full screen of white at 1,000 nits. That's because the circuitry of the display lowers the level to keep from damaging the display. So in reality, most HDR grades are done at pretty standard levels with spikes being allowed to go higher than 100.

[Bill Davis] "The most easily understandable holy grail of this stuff is letting a desktop user do with motion video - what we’ve been able to do with RAW stills for decades."

Actually working with raw stills to create HDR photos is a COMPLETELY different process that has little or nothing at all to do with HDR video. That's because there's no such thing as HDR printed photographs or HDR paper. So in HDR photography, you are tone-mapping ranges of the image into the acceptable range for the end rest - the finished photo - which has no HDR display mechanism.

[Bill Davis] "Improved highlight and shadow recovery, is something we all want."

Again, nothing at all to do with HDR. We have had that capability for quite a few years with raw and log video recording. HDR is entirely a post and display function. It gives you improved highlights in post. The recording didn't change and won't change with any of this new technology.

You might want to read these ☺

https://digitalfilms.wordpress.com/2018/06/14/hdr-and-raw-demystified-part-...

https://digitalfilms.wordpress.com/2018/06/21/hdr-and-raw-demystified-part-...

https://digitalfilms.wordpress.com/2018/07/05/more-about-prores-raw/

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: Cinema Grade - Denver Riddle - Color Grading Central's new plugin
on Sep 21, 2018 at 5:20:17 pm

BTW - since we are bantering about displays, I will further point out that iMac Pro displays are P3 color space. This means that reds (which include any sort of flesh tone) are inherently more saturated in appearance versus Rec709 or most current computer displays.

If you grade a clip for Rec709 color using an external calibrated display - or even an older Apple Retina display - that same clip will look oversaturated on an iMac Pro. This includes within FCPX, which has no provision for the user to correct the viewer image for actual versus target color spaces. Again, this is a software issue and not a hardware issue.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Cinema Grade - Denver Riddle - Color Grading Central's new plugin
on Sep 20, 2018 at 8:52:06 pm

[Bill Davis] "My 2-bit theory is that the missing piece is still affordable desktop production suite monitoring. "

Agreed, though there's more to monitoring than just an 'affordable' the monitor. How does the signal get to the monitor, the monitor needs to be properly calibrated, the lighting in the room matters, the color of the room matters, etc.,. It's the difference between doing it and doing it right. And I'm not passing judgement because there are many times I'm doing a basic grade on a piece on my laptop in an uncontrolled environment because that's what the gig is.

It's like doing a final audio mix. The financial barrier to entry isn't the software, it's the room you are mixing in.


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Brett Sherman
Re: Cinema Grade - Denver Riddle - Color Grading Central's new plugin
on Sep 20, 2018 at 12:23:28 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "I've only watched the demo video but I assume the plugin is a vastly more simplified approach than Resolve's built-in tools"

It seems to me it's mostly innovation in user-interface. And I think it's quite possible this would significantly speed up the color correction process. The controls are still the same as virtually all color correction systems. I think it's a good idea. I just wish there were more innovation in the features. No skin tone tool? No curves? How about clicking on the image and having it adjust the luminance curve around the the luminance value of where you clicked? Black stretch? White stretch?

For me there is a significant cost to plug-ins beyond their actual monetary cost. I have to implement them across multiple systems. In cases like this where you get two licenses, I'd have to get multiple licenses for people on my team that don't edit, but need to be able to look at the timeline. (Someone really needs to develop a "read-only" plug-in) Then there are the inevitable crashes. For me, it doesn't meet the threshold yet.


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Craig Seeman
ProVideo Coalition Review of Cinema Grade
on Sep 20, 2018 at 9:09:58 pm
Last Edited By Craig Seeman on Sep 20, 2018 at 9:10:23 pm

Cinema Grade – a new way to color grade footage inside of your NLE
https://www.provideocoalition.com/cinema-grade-a-new-way-to-color-grade-foo...

These comments speak of the concerns.

"There are no adjustments to each control as in a traditional grading app for adjusting the key or adding or removing from the key. Cinema Grade selects those colors on its own and that will be the part of the image affected. There is no way to see a matte of what has been auto-qualified."

What’s missing?
The main thing is video scopes in the base correction and final grading modes


And does Cinema Grade really work in Resolve?
Yes.
But it’s more of a “light” version that doesn’t seem to have things like shot matching, color management among other things. Because, you know, Resolve is a pretty advanced color grading tool on its own.


Will Cinema Grade take off and become the next big thing when it comes to color grading? I doubt it. It’s hard to see big advantages over the mature tools that already exist.



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Tangier Clarke
Re: ProVideo Coalition Review of Cinema Grade
on Sep 20, 2018 at 9:50:33 pm

I haven't installed the trial yet, but my thoughts were the same as mentioned above in that at first glance it seemed a lot like Magic Bullet Looks. I like the tools built into FCP X and will have to do my homework to get the most out of Resolve.


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Denver Riddle
Re: Cinema Grade - Denver Riddle - Color Grading Central's new plugin
on Sep 21, 2018 at 12:30:46 am

Product developer here! Just chiming in to let you know we appreciate all the interest surrounding Cinema Grade! It has been our most successful product launch to date as we really think that we have keyed in on the needs, wants and desires of independent filmmakers everywhere.

I had this idea nearly a decade ago of how I would want to develop grading software if I was such a developer because I struggled with the tools back then. I imagine if I was just starting today that it wouldn't be any different.

And it wasn't that I just wanted to make grading easier but also more efficient, fast... modern.

Like reaching into the image and grading it directly kind of like drawing on a tablet rather than trying to get the same result with an Etch-A-Sketch.

The current offerings of tools out there are based on ideas and workflows that are more than two decades old so we felt like it was time to shift the paradigm and bring the toolsets and workflows into the modern 21st century.

Now I know that all sounds like marketing hype but we really hope that you will give it a try a base your judgment on its merit ☺

We have a really talented team of devs that have worked tirelessly on this. My business partner is a former software engineer at Baselight and we are product partners with ACES. So we do have the knowledge, talent and resources to expand it even further into an exciting and useful platform.

Exciting days are ahead! If you're interested in giving it a try you can download a FREE 7 day trial version here: https://cinemagrade.com


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Geoff Addis
Re: Cinema Grade - Denver Riddle - Color Grading Central's new plugin
on Sep 24, 2018 at 6:29:06 pm

I've been playing with it. Scopes coming this week. It would be very useful to be able to apply a custom LUT in the Basic page.


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Denver Riddle
Re: Cinema Grade - Denver Riddle - Color Grading Central's new plugin
on Sep 24, 2018 at 6:59:01 pm

We were thinking the same things. So we should that in an upcoming release as well :)


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