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Ronald Lindeboom
This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 24, 2018 at 4:56:47 am

I wanted to inform the members of this forum that when we come up in the new system slated to premiere in October, this forum's name will change to Apple Talk because the current title has not worn well with the years and new people coming to the site regularly miss the point and misunderstand the focus of this forum. We regularly get letters from people who think this is a Final Cut Pro X forum, which it really isn't.

If you have a better name, we are all ears. Apple Talk has a certain humor to it based on the history of Apple over the years and longtime Apple users should appreciate the tongue-in-cheek quality in it, as well. But if you can think of something better, let us know.

Tim Wilson and I have had a number of discussions about the way this forum has changed over the years and what its purpose and focus is today and we think that the title Apple Talk comes closer to fitting this forum today than does the old name of Apple Final Cut Pro X Debates.

So please keep in mind that the name will change when we roll out the new forums system in the new site architecture.

Best regards,

Ronald Lindeboom
CEO, Creative COW LLC


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David Mathis
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 24, 2018 at 5:28:39 am

Ron,

I am grateful to you and Tim Wilson for your support and words of encouragement over the years. As far as a new name goes perhaps NLE: The Great Debate would be another suggestion. Whatever the new name is I will respect your decision. I am looking forward to the new website in October. Things have changed over the years here but have always been of the positive variety. Thank you for the update and for keeping everyone informed. Looking forward to the new and exciting changes!

Sincerely,

David Mathis
COW Member


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Craig Seeman
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 24, 2018 at 2:36:16 pm
Last Edited By Craig Seeman on Aug 24, 2018 at 8:45:17 pm

NLE: The Great Debate hits the mark IMHO.
The forum isn't really specific to Apple given that Resolve or Avid and other post software comes up. Computers used for post, including PCs their CPU and GPUs are also the subject of discussion.
I think it should be clear this is a debate forum or, at least, a post industry discussion forum.
I fear "Apple Talk" may well steer this forum into another direction.

If you want something a bit more fruity then:
Post: Debate, Apples vs Oranges.



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Ronald Lindeboom
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 25, 2018 at 11:54:45 pm

Good suggestions, Craig.

Best regards,

Ronald Lindeboom
CEO, Creative COW LLC

Creativity is a process wherein the student and the teacher are located in the same individual.


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Steve Connor
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 24, 2018 at 8:19:25 am

Hi Ron, really looking forward to seeing the new Barn in October, IMHO "Apple Talk" is perfect ☺



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Oliver Peters
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 24, 2018 at 12:39:51 pm

I guess "In search of Bruce" didn't make the cut ☺

- Oliver

PS: Looking forward to it! Thanks.

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Herb Sevush
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 24, 2018 at 12:52:55 pm

While I understand the logic behind changing this forum's name and I can also appreciate your desire to host an Apple Talk forum, in this case I think killing two birds with one stone will leave you with a lot of dead birds.

This forum is all about NLE design and workflows. It is not generally populated by IT guys and system integrators, Bob Zellin as always the exception, nor is it the exclusive home for Apple enthusiasts, as Bill Davis will testify to.

Any name that doesn't include "NLE" or "editing" or "post workflow" in the tittle means that your are making sure that no new people who might be interested in what this forum is about will ever find us.

Maybe you have determined that there are no such new people to find, I don't know, and it's your pasture to name as you wish.

If you really just want to avoid complaints from X users, then a simple change to "NLE Design" with or without ": the debate" would seem to do just fine.

In either case I will keep coming because I guess I just need the eggs.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Ronald Lindeboom
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 24, 2018 at 2:08:08 pm

So, "Curmudgeonly Musings" won't cut it, eh? 😊

Best regards,

Ronald Lindeboom
CEO, Creative COW LLC

Creativity is a process wherein the student and the teacher are located in the same individual.


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Herb Sevush
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 24, 2018 at 2:13:37 pm

[Ronald Lindeboom] "So, "Curmudgeonly Musings" won't cut it, eh?"

No, but "Curmudgeonly Musings about NLEs" would, and I would see it as an honor.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Andrew Kimery
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 24, 2018 at 3:42:51 pm

If you don't mind me asking, Ron what caused you and Tim to decide to change the focus of the forum?

Sturm und drang aside, this corner of the Internet was created to give people a place to debate the philosophical underpinnings of various NLEs, and how those jive/don't jive with an editing/post environment that's in flux more than ever. By contrast, "Apple Talk" sounds like a pretty pedestrian haunt where Apple fans and users can sit around in a comfortable echo chamber, revel in homogeneous camaraderie as they pat each other on the back for their magnificent purchasing decisions, and occasionally shake their heads in disbelief at all the people out there that just don't 'get it'.

To the best of my knowledge there is no other forum like this one on the Internet because most places are setup to be vender/product specific as opposed to being topic specific (especially contentiously topic specific) . If I just want to talk about Avid or Resolve or Adobe or Apple there a ton of websites, forums, FB groups, etc., that already cater to each one of those specific audiences. If I want to talk about Avid or Resolve or Adobe or Apple all together though... the only place I know of is the Apple Final Cut Pro X Debates forum here at the COW.


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David Mathis
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 24, 2018 at 6:45:15 pm

As far as I know this is the only forum of its kind anywhere. The groups I am in as a member, moderator or admin on Facebook are just as you described. Like this forum there is the occasional noise which I try to clean up. However, the noise level in here is to expected and is somewhat "normal" including any food fights. 😉 All in all I think the name [u]Apple Talk[/u] would be detrimental to this forum or at least result in confusion for reasons stated earlier. I thought about suggesting (as a joke) [u]Bill Davis Is Right You Are Holding It Wrong.[/u] However, that would attract ants to the picnic. 😂


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Ronald Lindeboom
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 24, 2018 at 10:19:01 pm

Who said we were changing the focus of the forum? I do not remember saying any such thing. Perhaps a reread of what I actually said is in order?

Best regards,

Ronald Lindeboom
CEO, Creative COW LLC

Creativity is a process wherein the student and the teacher are located in the same individual.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 24, 2018 at 10:47:43 pm

[Ronald Lindeboom] "Who said we were changing the focus of the forum? I do not remember saying any such thing. Perhaps a reread of what I actually said is in order?"

Changing the name to "Apple Talk" will change the direction of the forum (especially as new people join the discussion). Bill, among a few others, have been saying for years that this is an Apple-centric forum (it's not IMO ) so discussions of Avid, Adobe, Resolve, etc., shouldn't be allowed. "Apple Talk" heavily implies that that's true and so only discussions about Apple goods belong here. "Apple Talk" also has no connection to NLEs or post/production.

If the intent is to keep the focus of the forum the same then I think "Apple Talk" is a bad name. If the intent is to change the focus of the forum to a more general discussion of all things Apple then I think "Apple Talk" is a good name.

If the new name is being misconstrued by almost everyone then maybe problem is with the name, not with everyone else? Or are we just holding it wrong? 😉


-Andrew


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Bob Zelin
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 24, 2018 at 11:24:01 pm

Hi -
Andrew is being so politically correct and polite.
The original point of this forum was to open a "boxing ring" for people that hated FCP X and wanted to express their opinions about this. Of course, FCP X has matured into a fantastic powerful editing software product. But what this forum brings - particularly because of the wording - "The Debate" is a "boxing ring" that we can be aggressive about subjects in the professional video market -

for example (and this goes outside the scope of professional video products ) -
Liberals vs. Conservatives
Mac's vs. PC's
Progressive Rock vs. Country & Western (I thought you would like that one, Ron !)
AVID vs. FCP (and everything else). -
and ANY excuse to have a controversial exchange about any subject that involves professional video.
So I think that "The Debate" is the most important aspect of the title of the forum - no matter what you decide.
This is the forum that you can "yell" at someone, after a hard day at work (dealing with your frustrations of Adobe Premiere, Davinci Resolve, and FCP X problems during your session). You can complain, while someone else tells you that you are crazy, and that that the software that you suffered with all day is the greatest thing since sliced bread !

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Michael Gissing
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 24, 2018 at 11:29:32 pm

I feel the new name misses the mark because this is not a forum where we talk about Apple. We debate often with passion about all NLEs on all platforms. So there is not much talk about Apple per se going on but a lot of shouting about the pros and cons of all NLEs on all platforms.

Even taking the original 'or not' out of the name changed the flavor so I agree that this name will shift the focus of this forum to something other than what it is and has been. If that is not the intention then "NLE Debates" is probably a better descriptor. Honestly Apple Talk sounds like a help desk for iOS trouble shooting.


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David Mathis
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 25, 2018 at 5:23:56 am

In all honesty this is my go to forum. Despite some of the crazy things that happen in here I do find this forum useful. I am being serious. With that said I do frequent the real FCPX forum and Resolve as well. Just try to look past the noise because there is some very useful content here. Facebook groups have their place but this forum is much more useful for a wider discussion of hardware, software and all things related. My two cents.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 25, 2018 at 4:46:29 pm

Apple Talk is a great name for a forum.

But, I am not sure if it is the right name for this forum. NLE Debates would be more appropriate, I think. It takes the focus off of Apple for new COW users, and leaves FCPX Techniques for tech answers, questions, and help.

I know that Tim Wilson liked this forum in the early days because it was "full contact", meaning people can come here, and respectfully disagree, share insights, and most importantly learn about other ways of completing the same tasks with different hardware and software.

I think Apple Talk would shift that spirit, even if it is a great name. Unfortunately, I am old enough to understand the double entendre! ☺

Maybe we should change it to the Apple Extensions Manager? 😁 I'm kidding, of course.


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Steve Connor
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 25, 2018 at 6:21:50 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "and leaves FCPX Techniques for tech answers, questions, and help."

Of course it's not the "Techniques" forum now it's just the FCPX forum. Perhaps if the FCPX is taken out of this forum's name then there will be more discussion from FCPX users on that forum as well. It would be nice to have a "safe" space to talk about FCPX without being told how great and cheap PC's are or how bad Apple is :)


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John Rofrano
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 25, 2018 at 7:30:56 pm
Last Edited By John Rofrano on Aug 25, 2018 at 7:32:20 pm

[Ronald Lindeboom] "Who said we were changing the focus of the forum? I do not remember saying any such thing. Perhaps a reread of what I actually said is in order?"
I believe what you said was:
[Ronald Lindeboom] "Tim Wilson and I have had a number of discussions about the way this forum has changed over the years and what its purpose and focus is today"
Which does not imply that YOU are changing the focus of the forum but that THE FORUM has changed focus over the years (...and it has).

Judging from the replies to your post, I would say that the forum "regulars" do not agree that what we do here is "Talk" about "Apple" but rather "Debate" about "NLEs.

I have to agree with them. We are still debating, the topics are not only about FCP X, nor are they only about Apple (there are discussions about running Resolve on a PC) so changing the title to Apple Talk bears little resemblance to the current contents of forum and I also agree with others that Apple Talk sounds like a place to talk about iOS, iPhones, and iPads (oh my!) since Apple dropped the name "Computer" from their name but this forums is only concerned with computers and NLE software (...a now tiny subset of the mighty Apple empire).

So Ron (or Tim) let me ask... What do you think the purpose of this forum has changed to? Is it just to "Talk" about "Apple" as the new name would imply?

BTW, I vote for NLE Debates which I believe is more in line with what we do here.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasstsoftware.com



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Oliver Peters
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 25, 2018 at 8:21:50 pm

[John Rofrano] "Apple Talk sounds like a place to talk about iOS, iPhones, and iPads....
BTW, I vote for NLE Debates which I believe is more in line with what we do here."


I would agree. I initially thought it sounded fine, but I think everyone has made good points. Maybe there should actually be two forums: AppleTalk and NLE Debates, each with a different focus, precisely as John described above.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Ronald Lindeboom
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 25, 2018 at 11:30:49 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Maybe there should actually be two forums: AppleTalk and NLE Debates, each with a different focus, precisely as John described above."


There will just be ONE forum. As I said, I do not care what the name is. I hope you guys come up with one that you can live with and that you feel highlights what happens here.

I would offer one suggestion: we would like it to remain positionally where it has stood in the past -- in the As, Apple in particular. Why? Because in the Ns it will draw far less attention.

So, how about something like "Apple vs PC NLE Debates"? That way it will remain in the As and will draw more attention.

Best regards,

Ronald Lindeboom
CEO, Creative COW LLC

Creativity is a process wherein the student and the teacher are located in the same individual.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 26, 2018 at 2:30:52 am

[Ronald Lindeboom] "I would offer one suggestion: we would like it to remain positionally where it has stood in the past -- in the As, Apple in particular. Why? Because in the Ns it will draw far less attention."

“An NLE Debate Forum”


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Ronald Lindeboom
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 25, 2018 at 11:41:53 pm

[John Rofrano] "I vote for NLE Debates which I believe is more in line with what we do here."

NLE Debates works but I think adding Apple vs PC NLE Debates will generate more traffic.

But if you guys see something that works better, we are all ears -- well, except for arms, legs, and other appendages.

Best regards,

Ronald Lindeboom
CEO, Creative COW LLC

Creativity is a process wherein the student and the teacher are located in the same individual.


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Oliver Peters
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 26, 2018 at 12:42:59 am

[Ronald Lindeboom] " but I think adding Apple vs PC NLE Debates will generate more traffic"

Agreed. And alphabetical positioning makes a lot of sense.

Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Ronald Lindeboom
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 26, 2018 at 9:10:22 pm

Thank you for the vote of confidence, Oliver. It is appreciated.

Best regards,

Ronald Lindeboom
CEO, Creative COW LLC

Creativity is a process wherein the student and the teacher are located in the same individual.


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Bill Davis
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Sep 1, 2018 at 10:08:05 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Agreed. And alphabetical positioning makes a lot of sense."

Probably just me, but when I sort by different criteria, different groups of posts appear or disappear from my pages. I just found half of these discussions that I totally missed a week ago.

Probably user error, but sorting "by thread" shows me a far smaller subset of these posts - while sorting "by recent" shows many different posts I haven't read from weeks back.

Just a note for "management" if you're working on the forum arrangement mechanics.

As to the topic at hand, I'm going to respectfully stay mostly out of this. If the name is something that attracts me to this spot, I'll continue to be a presence. If I have to wade through over many posts debating topics that don't concern me directly (which include lengthy discussions of other NLEs that I don't use) I likely won't.

If this is to morph into a sort of "all NLE" forum - that's fine. But that is not what *I* am interested in. Because I don't use "all" NLEs. I know some here wish to keep a wider NLE focus - and I respect that, but I don't. This one is satisfying my particular needs incredibly well, and improving with each new release.

It attracted LOTS of eyeballs, to my understanding, precisely because it helped illuminate a CHANGE that we all had to come to grips with.

I question whether another, more generic forum brand will increase that, but that's not for me to determine.

To the extent that place becomes the home to long threads about Resolve - and doesn't focus on how X relates to Resolve - it likely won't be my cup of tea, and not really worth my time. (I'd be debating something I'm ignorant about and I simply can't imagine the need to go back to "track" thinking in NLE operations, since trackless editing fits my needs so well. Such is life.

Again, not saying the forum needs to be what *I* might want in ANY way. Just noting that for those of us who have selected our NLE - and don't want to waste time engaging in MORE debate about other NLEs we don't use - this just likely won't be our home away from home like it's been for the past decade.

And as X changes and continues to mature - or doesn't (if it freezes in a couple of years after the 10 year plan is complete) IF this place has an increasing amount of "non-FCP X noise" - that simply means I'll look elsewhere for keeping myself up to date on my tool. I have half a dozen active X forums I monitor, mostly Facebook Groups both public and private. And that's enough to keep me content.

I'll miss this if it changes into a more "general" forum, but oh well. Change is inevitable.

I hope the transition (whatever it is) is smooth and beneficial to all who have enjoyed this place - whether I'm a part of that or not.

Good luck.

Simple as that.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Craig Seeman
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 26, 2018 at 1:08:12 am
Last Edited By Craig Seeman on Aug 26, 2018 at 1:15:51 am

[Ronald Lindeboom] "Apple vs PC NLE Debates will generate more traffic."

That sounds to much like Mac vs Windows. That's only a subset of the forum discussion.

[Ronald Lindeboom] "NLE Debates"

But there's some discussion around broader Post Production. There have been discussions around Fusion and nodal compositing, Now we're seeing discussion around Apple ProRes RAW. Of course NLEs are inevitably in there but I'm not sure they're always the dominant part of the Debate. Is ProRes RAW vs cDNG vs camera specific RAW codecs vs PCs?

It's certainly a Debate forum. I think that's the attraction. The Debates seems to be wide ranging but gravitate towards Post, Post Workflows, Post Hardware. Apple is certainly part of those discussions but it's not really Apple vs PCs. It may well be FCPX vs Resolve vs Premiere Pro vs Avid, all four of which run on Apple computers (and three out of four run on Windows).

Even when things like Phones come up as cameras it's not iPhone vs Android so much as mobile devices as cameras and sometimes Tablets as field editing tool.

It seems the debates are more broadly post production and Apple certainly is a point of controversy but I don't think it's vs anything specific like PCs.


Post Debate Apples Vs Oranges
Post rather than NLE, Debate of course. I know Apple is a "selling" point to drive traffic but vs Oranges points to a broad other which includes design (NLE, codecs, etc) philosophy.

I know you want Debate and Apple in there so perhaps ask the community if there's something in there that can work although I do think there's a strong case that the debates are no longer Apple specific.


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Ronald Lindeboom
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 26, 2018 at 4:26:08 am

If this forum became what it did with a name like Apple Final Cut Pro X Debates, which as many of you have said has little to do with either Apple or FCPX for that matter, why do you think a much more catch-all name will be that much more off-putting and will hamstring the forum's chances of continuance? I really do not see the reason for all the push-back.

Best regards,

Ronald Lindeboom
CEO, Creative COW LLC

Creativity is a process wherein the student and the teacher are located in the same individual.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 26, 2018 at 4:48:09 am

[Ronald Lindeboom] "So, you are saying that a forum born about Apple's changes and that has historically but not exclusively debated things from that viewpoint is now not a largely though not exclusively Apple forum?"

Pretty much. This place has always been X vs the 'traditional NLEs' ( 7, PPro, Resolve, MC, Lightworks, etc.,. ) so although X is central to the focus of this forum, the central focus of this forum has not about X itself, but rather about comparing/contrast X to other NLEs. Is it an overall better approach? An overall worse approach? Is it a wash?

Apple took a different philosophical approach to post production and editing with X and I don't think the importance and ramifications of that should be omitted or downplayed. At the same time, NLEs are changing more quickly than ever with X taking on some 'traditional' features and traditional NLEs taking on some 'X-like' features so dynamic is always shifting. It's not static like the now closed "Adobe CC or not" debate forum.

And I can understand people seeing "Apple FCP X" in the title and then getting confused once they start reading the threads because a forum that is designed to be a place for debate instead of a fan club is a novel idea. But to be honest when the word "debate" is in the title I'm not sure why they are surprised to see debates going on...

[Ronald Lindeboom] "If this forum became what it did with a name like Apple Final Cut Pro X Debates, which as many of you have said has little to do with either Apple or FCPX for that matter, why do you think a much more catch-all name will be that much more off-putting and will hamstring the forum's chances of continuance? I really do not see the reason for all the push-back."

I'm going to quote myself from an older thread about the forum name:
https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/97473

[Andrew Kimery] "Some others think that this place is a just general round-robin, NLE beat'em up forum, and want to given it a generic name that doesn't involve FCP X, but I think that ignores the unique philosophical underpinnings of X which are at the heart of the debate. Tim doesn't keep FCP X in the forum title as cheap way to swindle clicks from passersby, he keeps it in the forum title because this place is about how X's new philosophy compares to the pre-existing philosophy that almost all other NLEs use some variation of. "


[Craig Seeman] "That sounds to much like Mac vs Windows. That's only a subset of the forum discussion."

I agree, and many of the programs we talk about are cross platform so "Apple vs PC" doesn't really apply.


[Craig Seeman] "But there's some discussion around broader Post Production. "

There are, but I'd wager the majority of the discussions center around NLEs so I don't think having an NLE-centric forum name would be inaccurate or disingenuous.


I think an ideal name would have "X" and "debate" in the title because debating the merits of X was, and is, the central theme of this forum.

"A Debate: Apple FCP X and Traditional NLEs" ?


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Ronald Lindeboom
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 26, 2018 at 12:32:12 pm

So condensed down to its essence, what you are saying is that somehow a community grew under a title that bears little resemblance to anything that it became but somehow its unrelatedness is now so important that it should be protected in its sacrosense. I am baffled at the obstinance and the defensiveness of something that clearly has had far less to do with a title than it has had to do with a group's willingness to go far beyond whatever constraints a title implied -- yet somehow you are now unwilling or unable to cross that line again? Wow, Boomie shakes his head here in incredulity.

Please feel free to ignore the fact that this forum by its name has had a totally negative effect on Creative COW because people come into here expecting it to have something to do with Apple Final Cut Pro X and yet it is often little if anything to do with it at this point in time. Ignore that all you want and justify whatever defence of curmudgeonly obstinance you may care to wrestle with, but the name is going to be dropped and that is a given.

I really do not care if you guys like me or not, it has never been high on my list of priorities. This place would have died long ago had that been one of my driving forces. When I came back after being gone for six years, the wheels were falling off and many things were needing fixing -- one of those things was NOT a mechanical issue. It arose from all the complaints and emails we get about people who treat others horribly. Those complaints nearly always point to this forum. It is a public relations cancer that has earned the COW the reputation of being an ugly place filled with ugly people. I am fine with people finding and participating in this forum if it is what they expect and they come willing to take part in it. I have no issues in that because I actually think this group has some wonderful discussions. I prefer to save it. Do you want to help me or just act like a bunch of dicks??? Tim Wilson would tell you that at this point, the COW is nearly 50% women but you'd never know it reading the forums. Why? Because they tell us they are afraid to interact with the ugliness that often ensues in the COW. They grab their answers and they go. You can be proud of yourselves, boys.

Are you willing to listen yet??? Are you ready to help solve the problem we have??? Or do I just make the problem go away??? The ball is in your court.

Best regards,

Ronald Lindeboom
CEO, Creative COW LLC



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Andrew Kimery
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 26, 2018 at 3:06:07 pm

[Ronald Lindeboom] "So condensed down to its essence, what you are saying is that somehow a community grew under a title that bears little resemblance to anything that it became..."

No, the title was exactly what the forum was and is primarily about; a place to debate the merits of X compared to other NLEs.

The only time there was confusion is when people saw "Apple Final Cut Pro X" in the title, skipped over the "debate" part and just assumed it was another, run of the mill fan forum.


[Ronald Lindeboom] "Are you willing to listen yet??? Are you ready to help solve the problem we have??? Or do I just make the problem go away??? The ball is in your court.
"


Tim has always talked about how much traffic this forum gets and has never mentioned any negative side effects so please don't blame us for not being aware of information that was never shared with us.

You mentioned a name change and many of us chimed with why we thought the new name isn't a good fit for the forum (unless you are trying to change the direction of the forum). You said you didn't care about the name so why don't we offer up suggestions, which we have. You don't like any of the suggestions because apparently the nature of the forum needs to change (even though you told us it didn't). Don't be upset because the feedback you are getting isn't the feedback you expected (especially when you don't give us any about why you want to do what you want to do).

This post would've been a great one to start off with (minus the snark, of course, which is kinda ironic considering negative posts are the underlying problem you are trying to address).


Now that you have shared all of this with us, IMO it sounds to me like moderation is the problem (not the subject matter or name of the forum). Tim has always been pretty hands off but maybe it's time now pull back the reins. I could certainly see this place as being more approachable if the personal insults were curbed. I mean, we can certainly debate the merits of different workflow solutions w/o taking jabs at the person with an opposing view point.

If anyone at the COW asks us to dial it back we will, but Tim has always presented this place as basically no holds barred and we typically take advantage of that. So if it's time now to retire the underground fight club and replace it with a respectable boxing gym that's cool, but that requires more than just a name change.


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Ronald Lindeboom
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 26, 2018 at 6:50:54 pm

Andrew, you were EXPRESSLY told what the problem is and I do not play by the same rulebook that Tim uses. When I came back, I came back to a pile of negativity and ugliness that I am hoping to curtail one way or another. If you continue to be argumentative (and try to put words in my mouth again) instead of actually listening to what I am saying about the problem and possible ways to solve it, then you are going to make my decision that much easier.

I have merely said that whatever name has been tossed out, it has been shot down here and it isn't me doing the shooting down -- all I care about is losing the Apple Final Cut Pro X in the title because it does NOT fit, however you may reason it in your own mind. But if you wish to persist, I do not care about losing this forum once and for all, just as I turned off the Discreet Edit forum long ago basically for the same reasons.

While Tim sees the traffic count and thinks that is good, I see the aftermath and the negativity that ensues in the wake of some of what goes on here -- especially with women who tell me they find the behavior here onerous and off-putting.

Ignore my words, do not listen to them, and justify the boys club however you like. But in the end, I will do what is best for the COW for the years ahead and if that means pulling the plug on people who are more concerned about proving themselves to be intellectually superior and who insist upon being proven right at all costs -- well, let me be clear that I really am unimpressed.

To go back to your opener, "No, the title was exactly what the forum was and is primarily about; a place to debate the merits of X compared to other NLEs. The only time there was confusion is when people saw "Apple Final Cut Pro X" in the title, skipped over the "debate" part and just assumed it was another, run of the mill fan forum."

Therein lies the rub and the reason why I want to change the name. You just made my case for me and if you don't see that, you really need to learn a thing or three about marketing and the psychology of marketing conventions. In a marketing war, perception is everything and when a name is seen one way and is off-putting to many, then it's time to change it whether you understand why or not.

Best regards,

Ronald Lindeboom
CEO, Creative COW LLC

Creativity is a process wherein the student and the teacher are located in the same individual.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 26, 2018 at 9:52:36 pm

Whether here or on FB we somehow have a knack for talking past each other Ron and I think we both find it maddening. At one point I think you gave me your number and I might just start calling you and be like, "Hey Ron, so I saw your post on the COW..." instead of typing out a reply. 😉


I'm not opposed to a name change, and I certainly think the toxicity problem is something that needs to be gotten under control.

With regards to my previous comments, I did not mean for them to come off as argumentative. In your OP I didn't get the gist about the negativity that you clarified in later posts. I certainly have a better appreciation now for what your goals are than I did when I first responded. In previous attempts to clarify my POV I think I veered into the land of Over-Explaining which just muddied the waters.

So, in short, I agree that an appropriate name change and a more aggressive moderation approach will both rinse the slate clean for this forum and prevent it from tarnishing the COW's brand again down the line (yes, I realized I mixed two cleaning metaphors but I'm in a bit of a rush).


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Ronald Lindeboom
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 26, 2018 at 10:26:23 pm

You are welcome to call me anytime, Andrew. I think the web has certain advantages and just as many distinct disadvantages to communication.

You have my number, I believe.

Best regards,

Ronald Lindeboom
CEO, Creative COW LLC

Creativity is a process wherein the student and the teacher are located in the same individual.


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Steve Connor
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 26, 2018 at 3:12:51 pm

[Ronald Lindeboom] "Are you willing to listen yet??? Are you ready to help solve the problem we have??? Or do I just make the problem go away??? The ball is in your court.
"


Wow this place can even make Ron angry!


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Ronald Lindeboom
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 26, 2018 at 6:34:59 pm

People that don't listen are a pet peeve of mine, Steve. You are fine, my words were not directed at you and I hope you know that. And yes, I am angry that almost no one listened to what I said about the issue and problem at hand and instead want to prattle on about philosophy and other nebulous things.

Best regards,

Ronald Lindeboom
CEO, Creative COW LLC

Creativity is a process wherein the student and the teacher are located in the same individual.


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Ronald Lindeboom
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 26, 2018 at 7:00:05 pm

Lastly, I knew saying anything on this forum was going to turn into a shitstorm and you did not let me down. But if people want to argue, trust me, I will indeed draw a line in the sand and once crossed, that will be the end of things. I will rebuild this site from scratch if I have to, I have done it twice before and I will do it again -- they say the third time's the charm and I am willing to see if that's true.

I asked that people listen to the REAL problem (which you are ignoring still even though I have clearly elaborated it) and come up with a solution that does not involve having the words Apple Final Cut Pro X in the title. Keep arguing that those words are to be kept here and they will be the line in the sand that causes this forum's removal.

Come up with whatever name you want that makes sense to you but the words Apple Final Cut Pro X are not going to be in the title in the days ahead.

Best regards,

Ronald Lindeboom
CEO, Creative COW LLC

Creativity is a process wherein the student and the teacher are located in the same individual.


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Michael Gissing
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 26, 2018 at 11:37:14 pm

[Ron Lindeboom] "Please feel free to ignore the fact that this forum by its name has had a totally negative effect on Creative COW because people come into here expecting it to have something to do with Apple Final Cut Pro X and yet it is often little if anything to do with it at this point in time."

I think the issues with negativity may have been exacerbated by the first change of name that I amongst other deemed unnecessary at the time. By removing 'or not' from the original title it no longer, to the casual visitor, gave that context of it being a debate forum.

I think the Cow has been extremely tolerant of this forum and I and other regulars who have stayed the distance would not want it to be detrimental to the Cow which has been an absolutely vital resource to our industry. It's saved our hides many times and we have generously supped from the teats of its collective knowledge. None of us want this forum put out to pasture so if we seem reluctant to be herded into our new paddock we bear no ill will to our benevolent farmer. Hopefully the grass will be greener and our neighbors will complain less about the midnight mooing.


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Ronald Lindeboom
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 27, 2018 at 3:13:29 am

[Michael Gissing] "I think the Cow has been extremely tolerant of this forum and I and other regulars who have stayed the distance would not want it to be detrimental to the Cow which has been an absolutely vital resource to our industry. It's saved our hides many times and we have generously supped from the teats of its collective knowledge. None of us want this forum put out to pasture so if we seem reluctant to be herded into our new paddock we bear no ill will to our benevolent farmer. Hopefully the grass will be greener and our neighbors will complain less about the midnight mooing."


Michael, Tim Wilson would tell you and the other members of this site that the COW is nearing the point where it is almost half females in the site. Yet, for the life of me, I cannot think of a single woman who posts in this forum. Back when we first started this site and Kathlyn was running it, the boys were much better behaved and they were far less abusive and as Kathlyn often said: "When you are in my house, you will treat my friends with courtesy and me with respect." And for the most part, that was the sense of decorum in this site.

But that changed due largely to the ugliness that was spawned in the Discreet Edit forum. It introduced a forum that Kathlyn wanted no part of and the only woman who ever graced its doors was Marisu Fronc. Some of the members of that forum were so ugly that in their volatile rabidity they lost sight of the fact that Kathlyn and I refused advertising for years from the manufacturer who wanted that forum killed for years because it was an embarrassment to them. But no one seemed in their short-sighted vitriol to understand that we refused money for years to protect the community. We even gave the forum head 12 thousand dollars when he couldn't pay his phone, lights and heat in a Chicago winter, and made sure he had the money and sponsorship to upgrade his equipment when Edit was EOL'd -- Tim would tell you that was money we could have desperately used at the time but we knew he needed it more. But people in that forum appreciated little what we were doing for them and Chris Wright and others were so ugly that one day when my son and grandson were killed in a car wreck and not one of the people in the Edit forum could offer a word of condolence, I looked at Kathlyn and said, "I have had enough. We have cut our own throats for these people and have defended them against our advertisers -- even giving the head of that forum a LOT of money and not a damned one of them can say that they are sorry in this tragedy -- not one." So I killed the forum. I am delighted they are gone...ugliness breeds more of itself when the door to it remains open.

I appreciate your attitude and hope that some of the others will catch up quick as I tend to make decisions quickly and change them, if at all, very slowly. I am loyal to a fault, but I am not a fool and I do not suffer fools forever. I have been far too tolerant but the very next time that Chris Wright breaks my nuts in this site is going to be the last time he will ever darken its doors. Those who follow his example will find themselves ushered out the same door.

There is far too much ugliness in this site in its current iteration and I have no interest in allowing it to continue. All of the bullying, talking down to people, mocking them because they are new, or 100 other reasons people seem to find to mock others, is going to stop.

If people cannot get it through their stubborn heads that this site was started by a woman and we have no interest in turning it into a boy's gym, then they will find their accounts closed and they will be shown the door. The belligerent and condescending attitudes are going to stop as I have no interest in condoning them any longer. I am done. If I have to rebuild this site, then I am going to rebuild it our way and that does not include room for men acting like spouse abusers or bullies. We are fed up with it and we are tired of getting the letters from women and even men who write about some of the treatment they have received in this site -- of which this very forum receives the brunt of, though it is not alone.

I was on the phone with Tim Wilson today and I explained exactly how Kathlyn and I feel about all this and he agreed, the time is long past when this should have been dealt with. The mean-spiritedness and bully spirits are going to cease or they can find a new home. We are done. This is our final warning.

Thank you for understanding that we have tried. We appreciate you noticing. Hopefully others will join you in your sightedness. If not, there is plenty of room left elsewhere on the internet.

Best regards,

Ronald Lindeboom
CEO, Creative COW LLC

Creativity is a process wherein the student and the teacher are located in the same individual.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 27, 2018 at 3:50:26 am

[Ronald Lindeboom] "I appreciate your attitude and hope that some of the others will catch up quick as I tend to make decisions quickly and change them, if at all, very slowly."

At various times throughout the history of this place we've tried to self-police and dial things back but it never lasted for any appreciable amount of time. Once the 'reboot' happens and you've made it clear that there are new ground rules at play I don't think people will have a problem adhering to them. Sure, at the beginning mods will probably have to step in and edit some posts (and maybe issue some timeouts) as the old guard gets acclimated, but I think the adjustment period will be over quickly and it will be smooth sailing from then on out.


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Ronald Lindeboom
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 26, 2018 at 9:14:45 pm

There will be no perfect name, just as the existing name has been far from perfect. Anything will be a compromise and so I am going to leave it up to you guys to come up with a name that you can live with.

That said, the existing name or anything that includes it, is off the table. Only the word "debate" is up for inclusion.

Best regards,

Ronald Lindeboom
CEO, Creative COW LLC

Creativity is a process wherein the student and the teacher are located in the same individual.


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John Rofrano
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 27, 2018 at 11:27:42 am

[Ronald Lindeboom] "There will be no perfect name, just as the existing name has been far from perfect. Anything will be a compromise and so I am going to leave it up to you guys to come up with a name that you can live with."
How about breaking it into two forums? I don't come here for the debates. I come whenever Apple releases something new like a new MacBook Pro because I know someone will have made a post and others who may have even bought it will comment on how it fits with their workflow. That is probably something I would go to an Apple Talk forum for.

So how about we split this forum into two: One for discussions about the latest Apple products for video production called Apple Talk and another for debates on the merits of different NLE's NLE Debates?

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasstsoftware.com



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Ronald Lindeboom
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 25, 2018 at 11:23:19 pm

[Andrew Kimery] ""Apple Talk" will change the direction of the forum (especially as new people join the discussion). Bill, among a few others, have been saying for years that this is an Apple-centric forum (it's not IMO ) so discussions of Avid, Adobe, Resolve, etc., shouldn't be allowed. "Apple Talk" heavily implies that that's true and so only discussions about Apple goods belong here. "Apple Talk" also has no connection to NLEs or post/production."


So, you are saying that a forum born about Apple's changes and that has historically but not exclusively debated things from that viewpoint is now not a largely though not exclusively Apple forum?

THAT is the problem as we see it. People log into this forum and think it actually DOES have something to do with Apple Final Cut Pro X and because of that mislabelling and misunderstanding, it generates a LOT of ill-will and as I said it gets the second-most amount of email of the negative kind.

I personally do not care what this forum is called, you guys decide. I just threw out Apple Talk because it just seemed to work for me but if it doesn't work for you guys, you give it some thought and come up with something you can live with but in any case, it will be changing with the new system. What that change is to be, I leave to those here, but if nothing is forthcoming, it likely will bear the name Apple Talk -- even if people occasionally talk about other things.

Best regards,

Ronald Lindeboom
CEO, Creative COW LLC

Creativity is a process wherein the student and the teacher are located in the same individual.


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John Pale
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 27, 2018 at 5:20:36 am

All Things Post Debated


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Ronny Courtens
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 27, 2018 at 9:17:14 pm

When this forum started, it was all about FCP X: the evangelists vs the naysayers to put it roughly. And I loved to participate in it because good points were made on both sides and we tried to stay as polite as possible with each other, even though the positions were quite polarized at times.

Over the years, when it became obvious that FCP X was here to stay and that it even became one of the most used NLEs on the planet, the Or Not discussion was over and this forum shifted to an amalgam of topics that have little or nothing to do with FCP X anymore. That's why I truly understand that new people who come here these days looking for information about FCP X (because that's in the title), are disappointed and even angry when they see what this forum really has to offer. Let’s be honest: since the focus changed from FCP X (or not) to a more general discussion about anything you can imagine, this forum is absolutely not as lively nor as interesting anymore as it used to be. And I say this will the utmost respect for everyone who contributes to it.

So the question is: do we really want to continue with the forum as it is, albeit with a different name? Or are we willing to accept that the ”discussions” here have worn out and it’s time to change directions all together with a new name?

If it’s the first option, I agree the name cannot include FCPX anymore and I honestly don’t care what the new name will be. Because just like many people have done before me, I will stop coming here. I am simply not interested in arguing about NLEs because I find this to be a colossal waste of time. In my country, we say: "les goûts et les couleurs ne se discutent pas". And I entirely agree with that. If I want to get more information about a piece of software, I can easily find specialized websites, forums or groups. Based on that information, I'm quite capable of making up my own mind. Actually, the last thing I need is to see other people arguing about an application I'm interested in. Because those people are not me and we all have different priorities, preferences, and needs.

On the other hand, if we would be prepared re-direct the focus of this forum, I’m sure we could bring back many interesting people who have left out of frustration, and we could even attract new participants. In that respect, I agree with Ron that a more specific forum such as “Apple Talk” would be a great idea. If we want to avoid having to talk about the latest i-toys but stay within the professional spirit of the Cow, we even could opt for "Apple Pro Talk" instead. I can assure you that this certainly wouldn't be a fanboy-only forum, there is just too much controversy and misunderstanding around Apple's interest in the professional market for this to happen. Quite the opposite: I think that there will be a LOT to debate about in the next 8 months. But I'm only one little voice in this discussion, this is my personal opinion on all this. And I'm with Ron all the way.

- Ronny


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Steve Connor
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 27, 2018 at 10:43:15 pm

[Ronny Courtens] "On the other hand, if we would be prepared re-direct the focus of this forum, I’m sure we could bring back many interesting people who have left out of frustration, and we could even attract new participants."

But shouldn't us actual FCPX users start having discussions on the Apple FCPX Forum (formerly the techniques forum) I think that splitting the forums has chased away people that actually want to talk about FCPX and that forum is now seen as just a place for people looking for solutions, not discussion.

We used to do that that on the old FCP "Legacy" forum, in fact it's the thing that led me to the COW in the first place.


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Ronny Courtens
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 28, 2018 at 1:57:32 am

I agree, Steve. The Techniques forum is far more interesting and alive than this one and should indeed be the only forum for anything related to FCP X. The Debates forum has lost its roots and its credibility and should get a new destination.

Seeing what this forum has turned into, I sincerely question the usefulness of any forum where people debate over NLEs. IMO it’s as useless as debating over cars, and it leads too easily to frustration and name-calling. The fact that many brilliant contributors have stopped coming here seems to prove this point.

- Ronny


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Andrew Kimery
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 28, 2018 at 5:50:13 pm

[Ronny Courtens] "I agree, Steve. The Techniques forum is far more interesting and alive than this one and should indeed be the only forum for anything related to FCP X. The Debates forum has lost its roots and its credibility and should get a new destination.

Seeing what this forum has turned into, I sincerely question the usefulness of any forum where people debate over NLEs. IMO it’s as useless as debating over cars, and it leads too easily to frustration and name-calling. The fact that many brilliant contributors have stopped coming here seems to prove this point."


The problem that this forum solves though is that it is inherently heterogeneous where as other forums are almost always inherently homogeneous. You talk about X in the X forum. MC in the MC forum. Resolve in the Resolve forum. If you try and talk about Product X in Product Y's forum you will get shouted down and told to go post in the 'right' forum.

I think having a place where people are encouraged to talk about all NLEs (including in a 'head-to-'head' fashion) is still very useful and worthwhile. The tone of this forum is what needs changing, not the subject matter, IMO.


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Ronny Courtens
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Sep 3, 2018 at 8:19:20 am

The tone of this forum is what needs changing, not the subject matter, IMO.

I couldn't agree more. It's exactly the tone of this forum that has driven away so many people from it. Whether this will change with a new name remains to be seen. I am a member of different general FB groups as well. Every time someone talks about a specific NLE in such groups, the thread gets flooded with brain-dead comments from both sides. Just like we see here much too often. No wonder people just lock into specialized forums where they can safely ask questions about their tool of choice without getting insulted. I am all open to giving it another try, but forgive me if I am very skeptic about all this.

- Ronny


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Tim Wilson
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 28, 2018 at 3:06:56 am
Last Edited By Tim Wilson on Aug 28, 2018 at 3:34:57 am

I'll start by observing that one of the most frequent topics here has been the inappropriateness of the name of this forum. The current name is the fifth, I think, with as much room for improvement as any of the others have had.

Some broader thoughts:

[Steve Connor] "But shouldn't us actual FCPX users start having discussions on the Apple FCPX Forum (formerly the techniques forum) I think that splitting the forums has chased away people that actually want to talk about FCPX and that forum is now seen as just a place for people looking for solutions, not discussion.

We used to do that that on the old FCP "Legacy" forum, in fact it's the thing that led me to the COW in the first place.
"


I agree that virtually every conversation about FCPX taking place here could just as easily be taking place in the FCPX forum.

It's not that we split the forums, though, not exactly.

We were at home during NAB 2011, when our system blew up with notifications of new posts going up in the FCP forum (the only one we had at the time). Hundreds of them an hour, so we assumed that it was spam that somehow got through our walls, but no, it was real-time response to the presentation, and virtually all of it negative.

Whatever anyone tells you about the happy happy temperature of the room at the time, fine, whatever. Look around the internet, though. Nearly EVERYONE motivated to post outbound from the event, on social media, on their blogs, on forums by no means limited to the COW -- was unhappy with what they were seeing. This is easily verified, and very much lines up with what we heard from people who'd seen previews once they were released from their NDAs.

So as part of our effort to preserve signal in the FCP forum, we at that moment created an FCPX or Not: The Debate forum. We didn't think too long about the name. We were drowning with posts to the FCP forum, that were getting in the way of actual conversations about actual FCP, and went with the first thing that came to mind.

It really did seem to be the crux of the biscuit, though -- are you down with this new direction, or not?

Our decision to create a separate forum for this was quickly verified as the right call, as the volume (both in number of posts and the vociferousness of their content) skyrocketed over the coming months.

Why no forum for the USE of FCPX out of the gate? Well, we DID have one out of the gate. As soon as there was a product that people were using. Later. For months, debating was the only thing we COULD do.

Obviously, the debate continued for some time after the release. Debates over issues like, Apple's decision to end official support for Legacy, their decision to intentionally ship the product "wet" with an accompanying roadmap of when mission-critical features would be arriving, followed later by debates over whether Apple's idea of mission-critical matched one's own.

No need to rehash any of that now, of course. Much of it is moot. The features are there or they're not. You care or you don't.

But in the meantime, the traffic in the Forum for the Using of FCPX (whose name underwent a tweak or two of course) continued to climb as well, but as is the nature of such things, more quietly. Nobody was yelling. They were there to work.

A number of early and frustrating ironies abounded along the way. One is that the COW itself was branded as having a negative disposition toward X, when nothing could be further from the truth. Not one of you -- not Bill, not Robin, NONE of you -- was as bullish on Apple's approach to X as me in particular. To review:

-- I supported, and still support, Apple's rollout plan as exemplary in every jot and tittle. I was lacerated for this in the forum at the time, and still am now and again.

-- I boldly predicted 10 million seats by the end of the first year. I regularly get mocked (mostly playfully) for this, along with my contention that anything less should be considered a failure, and my statement that if it were Timmy Wilson were in charge rather than Timmy Cook, I'd have had many heads rolling if that goal weren't achieved.

-- I predicted that this would be the Apple NLE release that finally moved the needle in Hollywood, because it provided obvious workflow advantages where Legacy presented obstacles.

-- In my interview on the making of Whisky Tango Foxtrot with director Glen Ficarra (and a lengthy sidebar with First Assistant Editor Kevin Bailey) predicted that X would change not only the way movies are edited, but would change the nature of VFX production, AND the way that movies are financed.

With the notable exception of anything Ronny Courtens was involved with, I still think it stands up as well as anything ever written on the topic by anyone (else).

Apple FCPX and The Making of Whisky Tango Foxtrot


Honestly, though, as a corporate position, we don't favor or disfavor any particular toolsets, whether or not their developers advertise with us. We're fans of the entire industry, and we have every intent of getting everyone in here eventually, one way or another. We're here to help everyone win, regardless of their toolsets.

Which is why, at its best, this particular forum has been one of my favorite things to be involved during the over 30 years I've been involved with one form or another of online communities, since long before people used words like "online communities".

The next unfortunate irony is that in helping this particular forum become the best version of itself, it became exactly the kind of forum we didn't want to have on any other topic. I've done both the COW and the industry as a whole a disservice by providing a platform for attitudes and energies that we've thrown out of other forums here.

So while our Forum For The Using of FCPX continued (and continues) to thrive for the kind of no-nonsense, "professionals-helping-professionals and aspiring professionals" information that continues to draw over 1 million people a month, the internet at large barely acknowledges that it exists. We STILL have people insisting that this is "the COW's FCPX forum".

On the one hand, we can't be expected to overcome people's willful ignorance, or challenge every instance of warping easily demonstrable inaccuracies to fit the narrative of their outrage. But we do in fact live in an age of willful ignorance and contrived outrage, and we have to take some responsibility for allowing this forum to in any way become the tail wagging the COW.

Ron mentioned the complete absence of women here, and that's definitely an issue that we'll continue to address at length in this forum and others. But I'll underscore an observation that many of you have observed over the last couple of years, that some of the most thoughtful, engaging voices from our earliest days are almost entirely gone.

*edit
[Ronny Courtens] "The fact that many brilliant contributors have stopped coming here seems to prove this point."

[I edited my post to add the above quote from Ronny, whose post went up while I was writing mine. Sorry I missed it, Ronny! Obvs many points there that I echo here.]
*edit

With deepest respect to the folks who've stuck it out, and apologies for my own long absences, a few too-rarely-seen friends and foils off the top of my head include David Lawrence, Simon Ubsdell, Franz Bieberkopf, Charlie Austin, Aindreas O'Gallchoir, and others who I'm sure you'd add to your own lists. I feel like their leaving had a lot to do with my own failures as a moderator, to shape a forum whose energy was as thoughtful as theirs was.

Not that I think that they represent the sum total of our best and brightest. On the contrary, many of the folks who'd I'd put at the top of my own list have been here all along, including on this very thread.

I recognize that those other folks left at different times for different reasons, and pop back in in varying degrees, and again, feel that I've failed the rest of you no less than I failed them. Cows are gentle spirits, and I didn't take proper care to preserve an appropriately bovine gentleness here.

So, yes, in years past, it felt critical to me to maintain FCPX in the forum name, to recognize that this forum wouldn't exist without What Happened With X....but most of the threads that you're engaging most with don't have all that much to do with FCPX. Sometimes nothing at all. You can see this for yourself by just looking at the number of replies to threads on the forum index page.

Over time, we need to get rid of some of the worst of the old threads, as indeed we've begun to. There are some things we just don't want to have as part of our heritage.

I've wondered what to do with some of the other, more productive threads, and wondered about how to insert them more into mainstream conversations, and Steve, the quote from your post alllll the way at the top of this one may have the answer: just move some of the more FCPX-specific threads out of this forum and into that one. Maybe. Maybe not, but I hadn't thought of it before.

And yes, I'd previously said that Debate needed to be in the title of this forum, but as the world has turned since we last aired out that topic, the word "debate" has become debased past the point of usefulness. What passes for "debate" these days is people hardening their own calcifications at each other as loudly as possible, making any kind of reflection impossible.

Thankfully, we've rarely gone that far here, but have come close enough, often enough, that we behind the COW are not interested in encouraging anything that might take us down that road any more. We're certainly not interested in associating ourselves with how debased that word has become, and don't have the energy or resources to fight upstream against the forces of the decay of civility.

In fact, our larger challenge is repositioning this forum in the context of our larger mission of being helpful, being inclusive, being smart, being professional, being fans, and having fun. We're tired of people googling something about FCPX and having the first page be full of nasty threads from this forum that don't reflect who we (AND YOU) actually are, or what people can typically expect from the COW when they ask for help.

They think, wow, I'm looking for help, and came to the COW to find a fight -- which makes perfect sense if you're coming in through the forum page, see THIS forum listed AFTER the FCPX forum, and wonder what the debate is about. But that's now it happens most often. Most often, Google sees "FCPX", sees the staggering amount of traffic here, assumes that the Fight thread is super relevant based on machine reading that misses the context of Help that someone is looking for, then those people come here once and are turned off forever -- which wouldn't happen if they'd been directed to The Forum For the Using Of FCPX in the first place.

Which is why we're going to be telling Google to stop showing people those kinds of results when people ask about FCPX, which is also why we're going to be getting FCPX out of the name of the forum.

To acknowledge an observation upthread that I haven't filled all of you in on the backstory behind this internal conversation, you're correct of course, but you also instinctively know that what I've said is generally true. (Except for my enthusiasm for X, which has been demonstrated as being far beyond the bounds of reality.) I know this, because I've observed many of you saying similar things over the years.

Ron, Kathlyn, and I have an opportunity (and a responsibility I think) to realign ourselves with our own goals -- but we're doing things the way we always have. With transparency, accountability, and one thing I can also definitely promise -- a degree of clumsiness. You would expect nothing less. Cows are gentle, but grace is rarely ascribed as one of their virtues.

For example, in retrospect, it might have been more prudent to present "Apple Talk" as a proposal, rather than announcing it as the final decision. I'll take some blame for that one. When Ron suggested the name, I ADORED it, and told him we should just do it, regardless of how you lot reacted. LOL Sorry. I argued that position as recently as last night, but Ron told me how you've talked him out of it altogether, and after reading the whole thread again, I'm persuaded too. (I have some ideas that I'll save for another post.)

But to echo Ron's reply upthread, we're not trying to change anything specific about the forum, as much as we're trying to reflect what it has actually become (where, by post count, Apple Talk is far and away the most relevant name...which yes, you've talked us out of, BUT STILL), lightly leavened with a reflection of the kind of community we want ALL our forums to be.

Not debates, heated or otherwise. Instead, ruminations. Shared observations.

We've had hundreds, if not thousands of threads reflect this of course. We want to encourage them ALL to, though.

So while I have no doubt that our eventual solution will displease some of you, hey, we've fumbled before and kept moving. Nothing is final. We'll stay transparent and accountable, and hopefully eventually land on something that suits you better, both as a name for the forum, and as a gently nudged refinement more in keeping with OUR mission, and with the way that most of YOU conduct yourselves when you're not here. LOL

In the end, this community is not a democracy. It's a business. There's a certain kind of decorum we prefer to have in our office, and a certain kind of vibe we want to feel when we walk in, as I know you all aspire to for your own businesses. I don't think that there's any conflict whatsoever in our commitment to a robust community for both our members and our sponsors, and our broader goals of having engaging conversations. I think we've been doing that pretty well. Just not well enough to satisfy our own desire to keep doing better.

And really, if you don't want to keep doing better, why bother doing what you're doing at all?

I want to end by again thanking the many, many of you who've made vastly more significant contributions to the ongoing life of this forum than I have. I regret having to be away as much as I have over the past year-and-some, for reasons I'll also save for another post, but I hope to get back to being in the thick of things soon. I've spent the entire time since I've been away with a rotating set of at least half a dozen tabs open with half-finished replies, and have a long list of threads I'd like to start.

In the meantime, that's a little more of what we're thinking. I look forward to ruminating on it some more with you all.

Tim Wilson
Editor-in-Chief
Creative COW


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Ronald Lindeboom
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 28, 2018 at 5:28:01 pm

Having grown up on a dairy and having bought my first car in high school by selling manure to the new homeowners moving into Orange County displacing the farms that had been there before them, I know a thing or three about both the awkwardness and clumsiness of cows and the amount of manure produced around them.

Tim is spot on when he points to our own awkwardness and clumsiness but one thing that many do not consider when they enter in with their response to what we present or say, is that we are in a no-win position coming out of the gate: we will always be at odds with a significant portion of the people who come here because we are dealing with over a million people a month who enter these corrals. So there is no way to avoid pissing someone off, no matter what we say or do there will always be aggressively dissenting voices -- and because it's the internet, those voices will often be like drivers on the Los Angeles freeway who do things in their freeway anonymity that they would never do if they had to deal with you face to face. Sometimes, we have been known to be like those drivers, depending on your point of view.

Ronny Courtens points to the departure of many who no longer come here. That is both a bad and a good thing. Tim points out that some do indeed still come but do so irregularly or only when the Google search engine brings them to something they need right now. But I would point out that this phenomenon has been core to the COW since we were the WWUG long ago and we began building a team whose roster always changed as people grew in their positions and often left to start their own resources. It would take me hours to point out the names and resources that exist today that are headed by former COWs or WWUGsters, as we called them back then. As Tim Wilson likes to say, "The fields of the internet are rife with those who built their reputations at the COW and moved on." We are proud of that fact. We do not see it as a failure but as something we always knew would happen because we are dealing with highly creative people who are thoroughbreds. I can remember when I first saw Andrew Kramer online and I told Kathlyn and Tim, "I do not know how long he will stay with us because this guy is destined to be a rockstar in this industry, but for as long as we can walk the path together, I'd love to help Andrew Kramer while he can help the COW community." That he went on to be the graphics supervisor at Bad Robot and has worked on Star Wars and Star Trek is no surprise to me. I could go on for days with one story like that after another. Even the most directly competing and comparatively miniscule site in this particular niche, came out of the COW.

We have always said and have always know that we work on the value-for-value exchange principle. Our people bring value and we bring value. When we start, we hold the greater value and when they grow to the point that they no longer need us, much like parents who raise children that grow up, they move on when they see their own value increase. Some pretend it was all them. We know better, but we are also mature enough to know it has never been all us either. One of the secret ingredients of the COW is that not Kathlyn, Tim nor I have ever wanted to be the stars here. We like to say between ourselves that "the real power is in the invisible." But most of competitors, even the ones that grew out of our own system, want to be the star. That is both good and bad and will always have its limits.

All this said, Tim is far nicer than me and he is much more concerned about how people see him and his place in this market. I came into all this knowing full well over 20 years ago that if we were to succeed, one of us would have to wear the black hat and I told this to Kathlyn in the very beginning. "If no one is willing to wear the black hat, the community will collapse under the weight of the most aggressive personalities manhandling [and I use that word purposely] the gentler souls in the room. So one of us is going to have to be the bastard and that isn't going to be you, Kathlyn." It isn't Tim, either. He is made of gentler stuff, too. But I grew up in and survived a house that destroyed the lives of both my brothers who died young, both at their own hands. I know how tough and ugly life can get and I am unwilling to let this site degrade into the kind of ugliness that I have found coming back to it after being gone for six or seven years.

Yes, I am clumsy and I am regularly too direct for my own good. But the fact that in 2020 we will be celebrating 25 years of building sites for media professionals is a testament to the fact that what we have done has worked and proven itself over the last quarter century.

We have not given up on our goal to build the most productive, positive and helpful site of its kind for media professionals. And when our critics get anywhere close to our tenure or our track record and results, then I will worry more about their criticism than I do at the moment.

Ever wearing the black hat,

Best regards,

Ronald Lindeboom
CEO, Creative COW LLC

Creativity is a process wherein the student and the teacher are located in the same individual.


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Mark Suszko
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 29, 2018 at 9:07:41 pm

I don't care much what you call it. I get why it's happening and I have no issues about it.

I AM curious to know if and how some of the more useful tips and related threads that were generated here under the old name will be accessible in some kind of archive in the new system? Or like Cortez, are we burning the boats?


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Ronald Lindeboom
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 30, 2018 at 2:44:36 am

No, we are NOT burning the boats, Mark.

The posts and the addresses for them will survive into the new system. It's taken a lot of work to figure out a migration from one system to the next and do it keeping the same addressing but we have it figured out.

That will help those who have certain things saved in an archive of links, etc.

I hope that helps.

Best regards,

Ronald Lindeboom
CEO, Creative COW LLC

Creativity is a process wherein the student and the teacher are located in the same individual.


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Mark Suszko
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Aug 30, 2018 at 4:14:36 pm

It does. The COW serves as a sort of "institutional memory" for a lot of folks, the wise old office expert that never retires. You may not want to keep all the sturm und drang stuff, or the petty slap-fights, but even some portion of that will have a certain value later... as a window to what people's thinking was at a certain point in time. To know where you're going, it helps to have some idea where you've been and how things got that way. If only so that we can question the underlying assumptions from time to time, and use that insight to move forward.

Thanks for all you and your "boss" have done and continue to do.


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Scott Witthaus
Re: This forum's name will change to "Apple Talk" in the new system
on Sep 3, 2018 at 9:50:19 am

I think Apple Talk is a poor choice. It solves nothing and muddies the water. I certainly get taking FCPX out of the name as a good thing, but changing to Apple Talk doesn’t make a lot of sense.

I prefer the general direction of “NLE’s and General Discussion” or something that captures the topics on the forum in a better way.

Scott Witthaus
Visual Storyteller - FCPX, Premiere
https://vimeo.com/channels/1322525
Managing Partner, Low Country Creative LLC
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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