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just a suggestion, Apple/Adobe

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Craig Alan
just a suggestion, Apple/Adobe
on Jul 11, 2011 at 10:28:26 pm

Apple should sell FCS 3 to Adobe. Apple could get their 30% cut for each download from the app store without confusing their brand by selling two versions of the “same” product.

Adobe could develop a 64-bit FCS 4 with FCP 8 and bundle it with COLOR, DVDSP, and AE. As part of the agreement, it could be required to work only on the Mac platform. After FCP X 11.x the name of Apple’s app could change to FCX 12. That way the names of the two apps from the two companies won’t “collide.”

Apple makes money for nothing. Apple can continue to prove that their way was better all along. The pros can’t lament what might have been nor continue to feel abandoned. Adobe becomes a dominant player in the pro NLE world. Apple would not have to develop pro features until and if they are ready. Apple can continue to develop a killer everybody-can-be-an-instant high-quality-video-producer app. Everyone wins.

If Apple's FCX becomes viable for pros down the line, everyone wins again. If Adobe doesn’t go for it, Apple can hand the keys to the pro market to AVID with the same deal minus AE.

OSX 10.5.8; MacBookPro4,1 Intel Core 2 Duo 2.5 GHz
; Camcorders: Sony Z7U, Canon HV30/40, Sony vx2000/PD170; FCP certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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Greg Burke
Re: just a suggestion, Apple/Adobe
on Jul 11, 2011 at 10:29:02 pm

/on board

I wear many hats.
http://www.gregburkepost.com


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Bret Williams
Re: just a suggestion, Apple/Adobe
on Jul 11, 2011 at 10:58:07 pm

And why would Adobe do any of that and also sell it on the App store? Adobe is currently ready to take FCP's space. Avid has been regaining lost ground before the debacle and is a name held on higher regard than adobe.

The winners in your scenario are only us.


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Owen Wexler
Re: just a suggestion, Apple/Adobe
on Jul 11, 2011 at 11:42:46 pm

I don't know about the whole FCS suite, but at the very least, Apple should sell Color to Adobe. They aren't doing anything with it, it's a valuable asset that there is still demand for, so they should at least get some money for it and make it available again to people who want it. If Apple sells Final Touch/Color to Adobe, Apple gets to make some (more) money and Adobe gets a popular, well-regarded high-end color grading solution to add to the Creative Suite, and high-end color grading will be available once again at the entry level... it's a win win for everyone.

Cinematographer - Editor - Motion Graphics Artist - Colorist

http://www.owenbwexler.com


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Tim Wilson
Re: just a suggestion, Apple/Adobe
on Jul 11, 2011 at 11:53:04 pm

[Owen Wexler] "high-end color grading will be available once again at the entry level"

You already have that with DaVinci Resolve Lite. It's free. It's "limited" to 1920x1080 (which is what Cameron shot Avatar at) and "only" one Red Rocket card....but if you need much more than that, you're not entry level, and the full version of Resolve is still only $995. A better choice than Adobe taking over Color (no disrespect intended) in every way.

Disclosure: Blackmagic advertises here. Adobe advertises here. The COW has sold a lot of Color training. We have forums for both, and love our members who use every product they choose. I'm speaking only for myself...but I'm just saying.


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Owen Wexler
Re: just a suggestion, Apple/Adobe
on Jul 12, 2011 at 1:29:42 am

This is true. Although if I recall the free version limits users to three nodes also. Nonetheless, it is an excellent way to learn and evaluate the software and I give much props to Blackmagic for offering it.

When I made that statement, I was also thinking about film schools that are less inclined to buy or even download a free version of separate software for color grading. Inclusion in a suite makes this software more accessible to film students who otherwise would not be able to work with it.

Cinematographer - Editor - Motion Graphics Artist - Colorist

http://www.owenbwexler.com


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Dennis Radeke
Re: just a suggestion, Apple/Adobe
on Jul 12, 2011 at 11:11:22 am

I agree Tim - this should be a hit with users all over. I spoke to Blackmagic about the details and for a 'free' product, it should be downright amazing.


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Tim Wilson
Re: just a suggestion, Apple/Adobe
on Jul 12, 2011 at 2:59:39 pm

[Dennis Radeke] "I agree Tim - this should be a hit with users all over. I spoke to Blackmagic about the details and for a 'free' product, it should be downright amazing."

Not that Adobe couldn't create a marvelous standalone color grading application if that was on the agenda. :-)

It's just my opinion that Apple Color is most emphatically not it.

I also suspect that buying it and trying to turn it into something that meets contemporary standards would cause more trouble, and make vastly less money, than it would be worth -- even for a company like Adobe that has made a couple of clever acquisitions this century....


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Bret Williams
Re: just a suggestion, Apple/Adobe
on Jul 12, 2011 at 3:09:54 am

And people decide that the adobe suite is the way to go instead if FCP / motion / compressor. Same as when apple took over color. And if people go adobe, it doesn't keep them on the mac.

No that is not a win for Apple. I'm believing that Apple's moves really are aimed at gaining the next wave of users at the likely risk of losing a good bit of pros. If they can capture the next wave of producers - whether ut be small independents and / or students it's a big win. Because they're trying to do it with an app that doesn't compare to any other. It started with iMovie and now they'd upped the ante to drag those users along as they evolve.

Us pros are on the Mac. We might switch apps, but I'm sure we'll stay on Mac hardware if we can.


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Michael Gissing
Re: just a suggestion, Apple/Adobe
on Jul 12, 2011 at 3:14:20 am

[Bret Williams] "Us pros are on the Mac. We might switch apps, but I'm sure we'll stay on Mac hardware if we can."

If I go to DaVinci to replace Color, then Mac is not the best platform. The best real time performance comes from a Linux system. It might really set the cat amongst the pigeons if developers embraced Linux based systems running on far cheaper, just as powerful hardware as the shiny MacPros


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Bret Williams
Re: just a suggestion, Apple/Adobe
on Jul 12, 2011 at 4:22:24 am

And all your other apps to Linux too? Do they even make photoshop for Linux? I mean I get it, you'll buy another machine to run davinci for a very elite operation that the Mac isn't good enough I guess. But are you going to ditch the Mac because of it? Are you going to have less macs? Sounds like you must have a separate color correction room/suite so would you have purchased fcs studio and used a Mac in that room? If so, I'd say yes, Apple lost a sale there for sure.

As a stockholder I certainly hope some really smart people were running all the scenarios and outcomes and decided FCP X was a win win no matter the outcry. Because as an Apple user, my faith has been shaken for sure.

Well, back to my Media Composer tutorials. Never thought I'd touch one of those again. Last time was one outing in 2003. It was a good decade while it lasted.


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Michael Gissing
Re: just a suggestion, Apple/Adobe
on Jul 12, 2011 at 7:57:59 am

Bret, I only bought a Mac to run FCP. I already have four WIN PCs for audio apps like Fairlight. My office computer and web/ftp server are Linux so yes if I were to go Resolve on Linux and CS5.5 on PC I don't need the Mac. Another option is Smoke on Mac.

I am only interested in software. The OS and hardware just follow.


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Bret Williams
Re: just a suggestion, Apple/Adobe
on Jul 12, 2011 at 2:43:20 pm

I don't know much about your shop, but I would figure the bigger the shop, the more the situation is like yours. Unfortunately I think Apple sees that the larger shops are on the way out. Or possibly they want to push them out. And you're doing what you should do. Vote with your feet. As just the little guy editing corporate stuff, I'm pretty much all mac, and not in a position to do that yet.


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Richard Boyd
Re: just a suggestion, Apple/Adobe
on Jul 12, 2011 at 4:51:55 am

Judging by the colleagues I've talked to, if Apple is counting on a new generation of students learning FCP-X they are going to be sorely disappointed. There are just too many issues and problems with FCP-X. I can't depend on Apple any more. We will be moving our program (50 FCP seats and 400+ students to Premiere ASAP.


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Dennis Radeke
Re: just a suggestion, Apple/Adobe
on Jul 12, 2011 at 11:16:41 am

That's great news Richard. We've been working hard with universities to incorporate Premiere Pro into the curriculum and have gotten half of the top US film schools to adopt it, with many more on the way. We (Adobe) believe that we need to hit both sides (high-end post & broadcast and education) simultaneously. Broadcasters need talent, students need jobs. It just makes sense.

Dennis


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Walter Soyka
Re: just a suggestion, Apple/Adobe
on Jul 12, 2011 at 12:25:56 pm

[Dennis Radeke] "We (Adobe) believe that we need to hit both sides (high-end post & broadcast and education) simultaneously. Broadcasters need talent, students need jobs. It just makes sense."

Dennis, I want to thank you (and Todd) for your many contributions here. I recognize you can't always comment on future product development specifics, but the fact that you can and do articulate positions like you have in this thread is a welcome contrast to the stony silence from some other developers.

Of course, all of your direct product-specific help is appreciated as well.

Thanks again.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Scott Roberts
Re: just a suggestion, Apple/Adobe
on Jul 12, 2011 at 6:23:29 am

[Owen Wexler] "Apple should sell Color to Adobe"

I agree.

LittleBlackBird.net

GraphicsDump.com


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Jamie Franklin
Re: just a suggestion, Apple/Adobe
on Jul 12, 2011 at 12:23:37 am

[Craig Alan] "The pros can’t lament what might have been nor continue to feel abandoned."

Is this some philosophical divide?

They were abandoned, but not by Adobe nor Avid...Final Cut Pro X is now PPro 5-5.5

It's over. What a strange request considering what Adobe has accomplished with their last 2 releases...good god, they are exactly what FCP8 should have been...and better.


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Noah Kadner
Re: just a suggestion, Apple/Adobe
on Jul 12, 2011 at 12:39:14 am

Yeah don't hold your breath on that one. Not a lot of precedent for that idea. Well maybe Shake but that was an extremely special case and to end users not competitors.

Noah

Unlock the secrets of 24p, HD and Final Cut Studio with Call Box Training. Featuring the Panasonic GH2 and GoPro HD Hero.


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Shawn Miller
Re: just a suggestion, Apple/Adobe
on Jul 12, 2011 at 12:39:08 am

Sooo... you're saying that Adobe should be more like Autodesk? If Apple didn't sell Shake, why on Earth would it sell FCS?

Shawn



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David Mathis
Re: just a suggestion, Apple/Adobe
on Jul 12, 2011 at 12:53:07 am

I would love to see Adobe take over Color. That is the only thing missing from an otherwise well-rounded production suite. I also think that would make Adobe even more competitive with Avid. It is a shame that Color is now EOL. Should Adobe make the move to get Color it would make the workflow much faster and effective for everyone and it is certainly and without question a win-win move for everyone. I would even pay extra money for it because it will be worth it.


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Walter Soyka
Re: just a suggestion, Apple/Adobe
on Jul 12, 2011 at 1:30:46 am

[David Mathis] "I would love to see Adobe take over Color. That is the only thing missing from an otherwise well-rounded production suite."

That and a 3D app... and then Adobe would be very much like Autodesk.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Dennis Radeke
Re: just a suggestion, Apple/Adobe
on Jul 12, 2011 at 11:10:11 am

[Craig Alan] "Adobe could develop a 64-bit FCS 4"

We did - it's called Premiere Pro CS5/5.5. ;-)

Sorry couldn't resist.


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Richard Cardonna
Re: just a suggestion, Apple/Adobe
on Jul 12, 2011 at 12:06:23 pm

As said before. Adobe needs a good color correction app. Anything in the pipeline>


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Dennis Radeke
Re: just a suggestion, Apple/Adobe
on Jul 12, 2011 at 12:16:04 pm

Anything I say will simply be a tease because I cannot and will not comment on future products.

I will say that a) we do understand color (Photoshop, InDesign, Lightroom, After Effects, Illustrator) and b) know that more sophisticated color effects/solutions would be good for our customers.

See, it was a tease...

That said, I think there are a LOT of great solutions out there for Premiere Pro users today. They include:

- Premiere Pro's 3-way color corrector: the UI is clunky, but functionally, it is quite good.
- After Effects Color Finesse - bring your Premiere timeline into After Effects and grade it there. Finish and render via AME...
- Red Giant's Colorista II
- Red Giant's Magic Bullet Mojo/Looks/Suite (pick which version you like)
- the forthcoming DaVinci Resolve Lite (FREE!)
- more expensive dedicated grading systems

Cheers,
Dennis


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Chris Borjis
Re: just a suggestion, Apple/Adobe
on Jul 12, 2011 at 5:07:37 pm

[Dennis Radeke] "[Craig Alan] "Adobe could develop a 64-bit FCS 4"

We did - it's called Premiere Pro CS5/5.5. ;-)"


I was going to say that!



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Michael Hendrix
Re: just a suggestion, Apple/Adobe
on Jul 12, 2011 at 5:18:52 pm

Adobe doesn't need Final Cut. Premiere, with a few more tweaks, is already there.

Here is what I want (aside from the few tweaks), a name change! Personally, I don't fully buy into "I edit on ______ so I am great." But the Premiere name still carries a prosumer reputation. I work for a video department of a large corporation, we run 8 seats of FCP. Have started the discussion of "What's next?" if Apple doesn't develop FCP X to where it needs to be. We also run 8 seats of Adobe. My first arguement, we can switch tomorrow if we wanted too! Not a dime spent. My next 100 arguements are all of the features and functionality. But when I say Premiere, everyone goes, huh? The next question is, "when's the last time you opened the application?". "A few years..." is the response.

So... continue to develop a great product... and next NAB, announce the new Adobe X (wouldnt that trip people out).



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David Mathis
Re: just a suggestion, Apple/Adobe
on Jul 12, 2011 at 9:00:44 pm

I do love Colorista II but I still think that Adobe taking over Color would make the Production Premium even a more valuable tool set. I will continue to cross my fingers and knock on wood that Color will somehow find its place in Adobe CS 5.5 or later versions.


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Craig Alan
Re: just a suggestion, Apple/Adobe
on Jul 13, 2011 at 5:41:35 am

Here’s my logic.

There would be huge interest in FCP 8 even if were just FCP 7’s interface/feature set with 64 bit and background rendering. It is by far the most famous NLE. FCS was the best deal in town.

As for Premiere: Why didn’t FC users switch over when FCS fell behind in terms of raw speed and modern architecture? If the Premiere suite had already surpassed FCS, then why were the vast majority of FCS users waiting for FCP 8/FCS 4 and not moving over to Adobe?

Color was a selling point for FCS considering that DaVinci was a much bigger investment until well … now. Color was free and it wasn’t specifically designed to need a control surface. But mostly, I think, it’s the need, or the perceived need, to be on an industry standard app. Premiere has not crossed that line yet. Maybe it is crossing over now.

I’m not saying I know. Maybe perception was the only reason. Maybe by version 5, Premiere’s interface had caught up. But I always got the impression that FCP users felt Premiere was catching up but hadn’t equaled FCP’s interface, even if it had passed FCP in terms of speed and native format support.

I think Apple is underestimating the influence the current crop of pros has on the upcoming generation. If future editors, producers, videographers, etc are doing anything, they are researching/thinking through decisions on-line. Can’t get much bigger than the Cow for this. If all the well-respected current gen are telling the next gen that FCP X is not for pros, then they’ll go learn whatever the pros recommend. Same with schools. They need to teach what the industry is using now.

Many more golf clubs and baseball bats are sold to weekend warriors than pro athletes. Weekend warriors want the brand the pros use. If they can afford it, the exact same equipment. A $300 app is not an impulse price point. Anyone interested is going to read about it on-line first.

FCS is used at most High School, College and professional training facilities because along with AVID it is the software that the pros use. Now the debate is to switch, at least for the time being, to either AVID or Adobe. For those who are already comfortable with AVID, it’s a no brainer. For those that aren’t, Premiere is looking attractive because it has copied much of FCP’s interface and is compatible with old FCP projects.

What started me thinking about this were posts like

http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/10177
“Go try Premiere for a week. You'll find it isn't anything to get excited about. It's trying to be FCP, but it's not. I'm bewildered that the company that brings us Photoshop and AE can't make a better editor.

Try Avid, its software from a company that knows a lot about Video. But not quite so much about software usability and interface design unfortunately. But it adds to the mystique because it's so ridiculous to learn. It too has been trying to become an FCP esque interface in 5 and 5.5 iterations. But now they just have more buttons and keystrokes to accomplish a task than ever.”

I haven’t tried the latest release of Premiere. I tried a version 3 release on a XP system and although I use XP at work I just am not comfortable on windows. I have tried AVID 3.x and I noticed how rock solid it was and fast. But I did find the interface less Mac-like. There also seems to be less support for it in terms of being a student of it. I can do a search on goggle about almost any aspect of FCP and find a ton of links at all levels of professionalism (where as AVID is really just pros).

That said, I have loaded Avid 5.5 on a Mac pro and will give myself a chance to learn it as I finish projects in FCP 7 and figure out what to do with old projects.

Considering Apple acquired FC and DVDSP and COLOR from other companies, I don’t think it is without precedent. Adobe certainly has the resources to buy FC, but I agree that there is no way Apple would sell. They have never sold anything as far as I know. They want to control the future. The engine they built might be very impressive but the FCPX interface is not being embraced.

I will be looking for a solution of what to order in my next grant proposal. I teach a lab that serves over 150 students at a time in 16-20 production teams. If the industry moves to Premiere then I will consider it along with Media Composer. That might seem superficial, but my grants depend on teaching beginners on industry standard equipment (practices).

My original post was just, for me, a fun idea. What if FCS was not dead but passed on to another player that already had AE and Photoshop? If Premiere is already there, fine with me, but I haven’t heard this from the chorus of FCP users. And if that were true, than why would anyone even care that FCS is EOL?

OSX 10.5.8; MacBookPro4,1 Intel Core 2 Duo 2.5 GHz
; Camcorders: Sony Z7U, Canon HV30/40, Sony vx2000/PD170; FCP certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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Dave LaRonde
Re: just a suggestion, Apple/Adobe
on Jul 13, 2011 at 4:57:52 pm

[Craig Alan] "Apple should sell FCS 3 to Adobe."

Just think: no more need for Automatic Duck.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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