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Ricardo Marty
The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 24, 2018 at 9:43:55 pm

This sounds terrible.







Ricardo Marty

P.S. Was about to purchase


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Oliver Peters
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 24, 2018 at 11:43:17 pm

Apple has a fix for the thermal throttling

https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-blames-software-bug-offers-fix-for-macbook-...

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Ricardo Marty
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 25, 2018 at 12:10:36 am

Good, but the recover port is gone

Ricardo Marty


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Bob Zelin
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 25, 2018 at 12:07:59 pm

seeing this series of videos, and the iMac Pro fiasco from tech reviewer Linus -
well, it ruins all anticipation I may have about any new 2019 or 2020 Mac Pro. The dream of the Mac Pro (at least in my eyes) is an open platform box. They will make a great computer, and "we" can go in and add anything we want - more graphics cards, more RAM, different types of drives (SSD, M.2 SATA, etc.), 10G cards, expansion cards from companies like AVID, Matrox, Blackmagic, AJA, etc. But it appears that within a relatively short period of time, Apple has determined that for it's business model - they want ANYTHING but this to happen. They want to be as far away from the model of the old Mac Pro Cheesegrater design as possible. That's just the impression I get, and that's sad. Maybe I will be wrong. When a company (I don't care if it's a car company, or a computer company) says "just use our stuff, stop this nonsense with these other products that we don't sell, and you will have no problems" - well, that's just not cool anymore. That applies to NO model of any industry that I perceive as cool - be it audio, graphics, video, cars, music, etc.

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 25, 2018 at 1:01:20 pm

Here's a video by the guy who originally discovered the thermal issue. Nice concise comparison of the competing PC options, too.







- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 25, 2018 at 1:10:31 pm

[Bob Zelin] "They want to be as far away from the model of the old Mac Pro Cheesegrater design as possible"

Remember that the Mac Pro tower was developed in the same era at Apple as Final Cut Pro "legacy". I think that mindset has changed. We see it in all current Macs, as well as with software like FCPX. Think of "universal" TB3/USB-C connectors a bit like FCPXML. One way in/out of the tool and cover the rest (which a small minority of owners need) with add-ons. I would be amazed if a 2019 MacPro (?) would deviate from this direction.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 25, 2018 at 7:23:14 pm

https://www.fastcompany.com/90207097/this-is-apples-come-to-jesus-moment

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Andrew Kimery
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 25, 2018 at 8:01:48 pm

[Bob Zelin] "But it appears that within a relatively short period of time, Apple has determined that for it's business model - they want ANYTHING but this to happen. They want to be as far away from the model of the old Mac Pro Cheesegrater design as possible. "

Jobs wanted the Apple 1 to be a sealed box and it was only because of Woz that it wasn't. Selling an untinkerable 'computing appliance' has always been Jobs' goal (and therefore Apple's goal). I'd imagine the next MP will have much more in common with the Trashcan than with the Cheesegrater

-Andrew


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Oliver Peters
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 25, 2018 at 8:07:10 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "'d imagine the next MP will have much more in common with the Trashcan than with the Cheesegrater"

Thermal issues? :/

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Andrew Kimery
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 25, 2018 at 9:53:23 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Thermal issues? :/"

Hopefully they won't step in that particular cow pie again...


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Rich Rubasch
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 25, 2018 at 8:08:36 pm

So what you're saying is that by purchasing two iMac Pros and the QNAP NAS we didn't make a huge miscalculation on the yet undeveloped Mac Pro that we are all longing for?

So far the iMac Pros are performing pretty flawlessly....now if only Adobe's software would.

Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media Inc.
Video Production, Post, Studio Sound Stage
Founder/President/Editor/Designer/Animator
http://www.tiltmedia.com


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greg janza
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 26, 2018 at 7:53:57 pm

[Rich Rubasch] "....now if only Adobe's software would."

Are you a member on the "Moving to Premiere Pro Forum" on facebook? I ask because there's Adobe employees that sometimes respond to queries there.

Windows 10 Pro | i7-5820k CPU | 64 gigs RAM | NvidiaGeForceGTX970 | Blackmagic Decklink 4k Mini Monitor |
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Bill Davis
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 26, 2018 at 5:16:08 pm

We just have to accept that we now live in a Ready - Fire - Aim universe.

What matters most is being first. First to uncover the flaw. First to stake out the ground for your position.

The reward is clicks and clicks need to be accumulated when the VERY first eyeballs show up - because only then can you TREND. And TREND is everything.

Time to contemplate and try to understand the actual nature of the issue and whether or not the issue is going to be meaningful over any substantial period of time? That's for losers! The book reader is just too damn slow! We need the gamer who can sally forth into Fortnight and slay HORDS by fast twitch precision in the opening seconds of the salvo.

Join the chorus NOW or risk being irrelevant to the meleé.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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greg janza
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 26, 2018 at 6:56:08 pm

[Bill Davis] "We just have to accept that we now live in a Ready - Fire - Aim universe."

And that's a good thing. When we're talking about products as expensive as the Apple line the buying public has a right to know about flaws or defects.

It sounds like Apple is dealing with the throttling issue quickly so perhaps the transparency of review info has aided in getting Apple to come up with a fix strategy.

Windows 10 Pro | i7-5820k CPU | 64 gigs RAM | NvidiaGeForceGTX970 | Blackmagic Decklink 4k Mini Monitor |
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Bill Davis
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 26, 2018 at 8:45:08 pm

[greg janza] "When we're talking about products as expensive as the Apple line the buying public has a right to know about flaws or defects."

Expensive?

Please.

$2600 (in 1990s dollars!) was the Betacam TAPE budget for a medium sized corporate shoot when I was learning the craft.

That you can spend the same amount in 2018 dollars and get a high powered computer in a 1" slab of aluminum — iincluding a killer monitor and SSD storage — that can handle 4k footage with aplomb — is damn near MIRACULOUS.

We're just stupidly spoiled in this era.
Todays default for far too many people is that it's NEVER good enough, fast enough, cheap enough, or works well enough.

And if it is — then that's it's even worse - because then EVERYBODY can buy it and push all the rates down.

THIS is a digital video GOLDEN AGE in nearly EVERY historical aspect - and yet all we can do is bitch, bitch, bitch that it's still not golden or shiny ENOUGH.

It's kinda embarrassing, really.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 26, 2018 at 6:59:25 pm

[Bill Davis] "We just have to accept that we now live in a Ready - Fire - Aim universe."

Oh geez! Look at the facts! The primary problem with these machines was the "thermal throttling" issue. When you potentially drop $7K on a machine, you'd like to have it work correctly. Every product reviewer worth their salt will push performance hardware to the max. The fact that it's now on the net, instead of TV or print simply means both good and bad news gets out there faster.

This thermal issue was relatively easy to reproduce and was found by a vlogger, who then worked with Apple to find a solution. The fact that multiple users could reproduce the issue makes it surprising that it was missed by engineering QA before release in the first place.

As someone who suffers at times daily through render issues on a 2013 Mac Pro, I can tell you first hand that Apple doesn't have a great track record when it comes to thermal design. Considering that Apple very quickly found it was a design mistake that was fixable through a software update in short order, points to the fact that this was a very real problem. And they also acknowledged that all 2018 13" and 15" MBPs were affected, even though the problem primarily cropped up in the i9 machines.

The data port issue that Louis brings up is a separate matter and probably not easily rectified.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 26, 2018 at 8:55:31 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Jul 26, 2018 at 9:42:19 pm

[Oliver Peters] "doesn't have a great track record when it comes to thermal design."

Yeah, but from what I read, THAT was not the problem here.

After the patch that simply changes some embedded power unit code — the DESIGN of the unit appears to work precisely as it should.

So the problem wasn't "thermal DESIGN" (as most people would understand that concept) at all. It was a small bug that temporarily prevented the computers to operate to spec - but one that was pretty easy to correct.

If it had been an ACTUAL design problem - the fix would have been to change the design.

But that's not what happened here. They pushed a pure software fix - and the exact same hardware design works exactly as promised.

That's a very different thing.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Shane Ross
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 26, 2018 at 7:40:53 pm

[Bill Davis] "What matters most is being first. First to uncover the flaw. First to stake out the ground for your position."

First? This isn't a cable news story where reporters and anchors RUSH to get the news story on the air and get facts wrong...or report issues that are in flux and constantly changing. No...I guy found a flaw in the processor, it was being throttled. Several others found the same issue...Apple acknowledged the issue, and a fix was released. There's no "fake news" here...no wrong facts due to reporting this issue quickly. An issue was found, but someone who pushes hardware to the limits every day, it was acknowledged...and fixed. True nature of why all this was happening came to light, and it wasn't wrong. The design of the MBP isn't optimal for the cooling needs of the processor. The push for THIN and SLEEK isn't ideal for high end needs...needs even FCPX would have.

So I fail to see what your point is. Are you somehow not liking that a flaw in an Apple product was brought to light by at least three bloggers/vloggers? That Apple admitted wrong doing...and a fix was issued?

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Andrew Kimery
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 26, 2018 at 7:43:35 pm

[Bill Davis] "We just have to accept that we now live in a Ready - Fire - Aim universe."

???

A reviewer found a flaw in a product, shared the flaw with the public, product's maker acknowledged the problem, and released an update to address it.

The reviewer didn't get it wrong, he just happened to get it right so fast that many people assumed he had to have gotten it wrong. The knee-jerk reaction to the reviewer is where Ready - Fire - Aim took place.


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Bill Davis
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 26, 2018 at 9:25:06 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "The reviewer didn't get it wrong, he just happened to get it right so fast that many people assumed he had to have gotten it wrong. The knee-jerk reaction to the reviewer is where Ready - Fire - Aim took place."

Well, he got it PARTLY right.

Yes, there was throttling. But NOT because of any actual thermal danger. And his hurried "I'm first" review didn't go far enough to establish the actual parameters of the issue. So that partial "me first" FIRE cry - in the presence of smoke - but not flames - is what essentially led to everyone else excoriating the new MacBook Pros as "Thermallly flawed" when in fact, they are not.

THIS is the danger of Ready, Fire, Aim.

It' short circuits the exploratory process. Nobody gets to address the subtitles. Everyone picks sides - before enough information is available to choose those sides wisely.

And that's not a very good environment for making valid judgments on the utility of tools.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Shane Ross
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 26, 2018 at 7:46:57 pm

I mean...back at the start of the digital filming revolution, I was working with P2 footage and encountered an import issue...and blogged about it. Apple then contacted me directly and offered to work with me to find the solution, which I did the following day. Two days later an update to FCP was released. Not meaning to toot my own horn here, but it is another example of this "squeaky wheel gets the grease." In this case it wasn't a design flaw, or intentional slowdown...but an actual small bug when it came to dealing with footage shot with a specific setting.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Bill Davis
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 26, 2018 at 9:30:32 pm

[Shane Ross] "I mean...back at the start of the digital filming revolution, I was working with P2 footage and encountered an import issue...and blogged about it. Apple then contacted me directly and offered to work with me to find the solution, which I did the following day. Two days later an update to FCP was released. Not meaning to toot my own horn here, but it is another example of this "squeaky wheel gets the grease." In this case it wasn't a design flaw, or intentional slowdown...but an actual small bug when it came to dealing with footage shot with a specific setting"

Nobody is saying not to blog about OR discuss flaws in Apples work (or any other companies, for that matter.)

Feedback loops are CRITICAL for system evaluation, always.

But in cases like this - its thousands of voices rushing to bellow about how the cars tires are CRAP - when it fact, a day later it's discovered that it's poor alignment that's ACTUALLY causing the inappropriate wear.

Passing along THIS MODEL CAR EATS TIRES!!! - as the bold face headline - doesn't really help very much, IMO.

Simple as that.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Bill Davis
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 26, 2018 at 9:13:35 pm

[Shane Ross] "No...I guy found a flaw in the processor, it was being throttled."

NO. That is NOT why throttling was occurring, as I understand it from my reading.

There wasn't a "flaw in the processor" at all. It was an unsigned snippet of code in a Power Management Unit totally separate from the processor.

As I understand it, the computer was NEVER overheating and running the fans to cool down an actually overheating issue. The fans and throttle state were being triggered due to a glitch in the self assessment feedback.NOT because dangerous overheating was ever actually occurring.

It's like your care engine Overheat light is coming on. So you take it in, but it turns out the LIGHT was shorting. NOT that the car was actually overheating.

They change the light bulb - or fix the computer - and it stops signaling that there's a problem where their actually isn't. Because the flashing light is not the actual issue - engine danger is. And there wasn't ever any actual engine danger in this case - at least as far as I can tell.

Your i9 is NOT going to overheat and fail prematurely (at least not anymore than ANY other similarly configured computer with the same components from ANY manufacturer might) because APPLE screwed up their design.

From what I've read, the slim new Apple MacBook Pro runs within EXACTLY the same thermal parameters that also arise from thicker and even RUGGED laptops from many other manufacturers sporting the same level of performance. It get no hotter, cools no less efficiently, and should fail and NOT fail at exactly the same rate as any of it's competitors.

The observed throttling was a temporary symptom of a tiny code glitch - NOT bad computer thermal design.

That's the nothing burger this particular "gate" turned out to be.

At least as I read things.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 26, 2018 at 9:41:16 pm

[Bill Davis] "It's like your care engine Overheat light is coming on. So you take it in, but it turns out the LIGHT was shorting. NOT that the car was actually overheating."

That's an incorrect analogy, because performance was actually affected, even without any potential thermal damage. It wasn't just that the indicators were wrong.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 26, 2018 at 10:03:03 pm

[Oliver Peters] "That's an incorrect analogy, because performance was actually affected, even without any potential thermal damage. It wasn't just that the indicators were wrong."

Sure, and IF the issue had affected performance for a lot of real world users - folks would have had every right to be as upset as they liked.

But of course, this was NOT every user, and certainly not under EVERY load case, nor a problem making the overall computer unsuitable for most common tasks.

This was an edge case for users MAXING out their brand new machines.

That it was a problem affecting a very small class of users doesn't make it right, of course. But it does it likely didn't stop many filmmakers or documentarians in their tracks or cost them a penny - and it was addressed appropriately once discovered.

So in sum, it's as I said, this whole thing will likely recede into computer history as a good dose of nothing much.

And so it goes.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 26, 2018 at 10:23:27 pm

[Bill Davis] "But of course, this was NOT every user, and certainly not under EVERY load case, nor a problem making the overall computer unsuitable for most common tasks."

How do you know that? Those machines were just released and you don't a flood of folks going out and dropping that kind of money in the initial days. Especially extra for the i9. I think it's too early to say that, so it's good that Apple got in front of this quickly. Especially since - according to Apple - this affected ALL of those laptops, not just the i9.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 26, 2018 at 10:38:01 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Jul 26, 2018 at 10:48:35 pm

[Oliver Peters] "I think it's too early to say that, so it's good that Apple got in front of this quickly. Especially since - according to Apple - this affected ALL of those laptops, not just the i9."

Yeah, but the tests on the i7s apparently didn't see the same type of issues - which led a LOT of the people I converse with to immediately say that buying an i7 variant was the "smart play" - when in fact, it might not actually be.

The worse case, for me was following a thread on IIRC, MacRumors, - where a guy had received his brand spanking new i9 maxed out MacBook Pro - was horrified at the discussion. Decided to send it back bemoaning that after 3 years of waiting - he was CRUSHED at how flawed it was. Posted that his UPS guy had just picked up the package for return...

And the PATCH was released literally THAT hour.

A cringe worthy cautionary thread if I ever read one.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Shane Ross
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 26, 2018 at 10:56:44 pm

[Bill Davis] "But of course, this was NOT every user, and certainly not under EVERY load case, nor a problem making the overall computer unsuitable for most common tasks."

Most common tasks aren't ones that would require the i9 processor. That is for those who need the render power...video editors, 3D modeling, graphics. THEY are the ones springing for this processor, they are the ones who need this speed. I don't see a writer, or student, or guy who writes computer code, game designer...shelling out extra bucks for the i9. They aren't the ones who need that. The people who do, shell out the extra money specifically for it to render better than the i7...which it wasn't. Not until the fix came about.

[Bill Davis] "That it was a problem affecting a very small class of users doesn't make it right, of course."

This "small class" of users is video professionals. You know...like the ones who use FCP-X. The ones you always say are a HUGE market for Apple. So first you tout them as this mass market..now you are saying they are a small class of users. Well, honestly, they are. Which is why Apple isn't catering to them...not making the MacPro...sticking to computers that didn't have tons of processing power because they make MORE money on the iphones. But now they are trying, only sorta. They are still trying to stick to their sleek designs that don't cool things properly, because design is more important that function. They used to have a good balance between the two...but now they find the consumers more profitable so they go for the sleek...

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Bill Davis
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 26, 2018 at 11:26:06 pm

[Shane Ross] "This "small class" of users is video professionals. You know...like the ones who use FCP-X. The ones you always say are a HUGE market for Apple. "

That's actually not true, at least as I understand it.

The extra grunt of the i9 doesn't really help video raster work all that much. Where it shines, according to what I've read is in the 3D modeling and virtual reality areas where you're processing massive arrays of polygons to create virtual worlds.

I'm sure it won't HURT to do your day to day video rendering on it. And perhaps if you're overlaying hugely complex graphics over video - you'll want the extra power. But as I understand it - even facing an 8K raster, the performance gains of the i9 over the i7 might turn out to be kinda modest in the real world.

It seems to be one of those things like CPU vs GPU. The knee jerk idea is to simply max out each. But how that effects performance is going to be most effected by the type of work you do and the software you use most often.

My suspicion is that most mobile editors - we may not see much difference in performance at all.

Some DITs might. Other might not. It depends on the type of footage that particular laptop faces most often.

The folk who want to build and test games whilst working on the patio or the beach - yeah, THEY will totally want to rock the fastest i9 and the gruntiest machine they can get their paws on.

But most others, not so much.

If you just CUT on your laptop - but then move your work back to the office to render it out or master things - this whole i9 thing may be a serious non-issue.

Time will tell.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Tom Sefton
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 27, 2018 at 7:47:34 am

Work with red footage, i9 helps deciding on the fly. It’s a non GPU task that the CPU does. More CPU cores and grunt, faster decode and playback/render.

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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Oliver Peters
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 27, 2018 at 12:05:56 pm

[Tom Sefton] "Work with red footage"

RED footage! What??!! I'm shocked! You don't strictly work with iPhone footage ... like Apple intended!


- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Shane Ross
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 27, 2018 at 5:45:33 pm

So, you just cut on your laptop? You don't transcode any of the footage first? Don't let FCP-X "optimize" it for you first? It's that optimization that utilizes the processor. Final exports? They will be faster with an unthrottled i9...having a faster processor means it gets done sooner, and you then edit faster, and get the edit done sooner and....that's your whole point of liking FCP-X...that it makes you faster.

It's not only for CAD or 3D or graphics...or DITs. It's for you, the editor. Importing, exporting...transcoding, rendering complex layers, doing graphics with Motion, rendering out something from After Effects...doing a final render in Resolve. ALL tasks editors do.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Oliver Peters
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 26, 2018 at 9:44:59 pm

[Bill Davis] "That's the nothing burger this particular "gate" turned out to be. "

I'm not so sure. This is one of the rare instances in which Apple has actually admitted an error and given specifics. Usually they provide a fix and gloss over the reasons without a mea culpa. (Butterfly keyboard, anyone?) A bit more transparency can actually help.


- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 26, 2018 at 10:15:10 pm

[Oliver Peters] "This is one of the rare instances in which Apple has actually admitted an error and given specifics. "

So THAT'S the point of all this?

To extract some form of public mea culpa from Apple?

It's kind of a stunning notion to apply against motivating a global conglomerate.

But, oh well.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 26, 2018 at 10:25:50 pm

[Bill Davis] "So THAT'S the point of all this?"

Huh? That's hardly anyone's motivation. However, corporate transparency is a good thing.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 26, 2018 at 10:44:10 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Jul 26, 2018 at 10:44:54 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Huh? That's hardly anyone's motivation."

Read the inter webs much?

😉

I bet in 5 minutes I can find 100 folks posting that Premiere, AVID, FCP X or Resolve – as well as ALL the hardware from Apple, BlackMagic, DELL, HP, and Canon are entirely absolute overpriced CRAP and only a fool would use it/them/that.

Bitching about hardware and software is the CORE of the internet. And probably always will be.

Nothing new here at all.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Dominic Deacon
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 26, 2018 at 9:52:35 pm

[Bill Davis] "From what I've read, the slim new Apple MacBook Pro runs within EXACTLY the same thermal parameters that also arise from thicker and even RUGGED laptops from many other manufacturers sporting the same level of performance. It get no hotter, cools no less efficiently, and should fail and NOT fail at exactly the same rate as any of it's competitors."

I'm not sure that's really true. Even after the fix the macbook will still only run at the chips base clock speed. Those thicker, more rugged laptops will run at the boost clock speed. Personally I wouldn't be spending that kind of money on a processor to have it topping out out at 2.9ghz. That processor is just too powerful for that form factor.







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Bill Davis
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 26, 2018 at 10:21:51 pm

[Dominic Deacon] "That processor is just too powerful for that form factor.

"


Well, if you say so.

(I'm presuming you have a computer hardware engineering degree and a clear understanding of their implementation, of course.)

I don't. So I don't have the slightest clue whether this will blow over or not.

All I know is that the debate HAS evolved significantly over the past few days.
Pretty much from "Apple's new laptop has CANCER!" - down to "Apple's new laptop is, MAYBE, a bit LAZY."

😉

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Shane Ross
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 26, 2018 at 10:50:14 pm

[Bill Davis] "NO. That is NOT why throttling was occurring, as I understand it from my reading.

There wasn't a "flaw in the processor" at all. It was an unsigned snippet of code in a Power Management Unit totally separate from the processor. "


Sorry, I typed that wrong. Not a processor flaw, but computer code designed to throttle it so it wouldn't get too hot.

[Bill Davis] "As I understand it, the computer was NEVER overheating and running the fans to cool down an actually overheating issue. "

Correct, because if it went to a certain temp, the code would "throttle" the processor, making it not function as fast as it could, in order to keep the heat down. Notice that when the computer was put in the freezer, that the processor throttling was less. because it didn't heat things up as much. so it was allowed to do more. But make no mistake, code was there to throttle it...intentionally.

Shane
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Bill Davis
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 26, 2018 at 11:42:41 pm

[Shane Ross] "Notice that when the computer was put in the freezer, that the processor throttling was less. because it didn't heat things up as much. so it was allowed to do more. But make no mistake, code was there to throttle it...intentionally."

Regardless, here we are a bit later - and the issue is identified and apparently corrected.

And all the stuff posted like THIS exchange I grabbed from the web and which should remain without attribution since the OP surely is regretting a bit jumping to this much of a conclusion...

“In my opinion, Apple seriously screwed up here. The testing that I did was easily within Apple's capabilities, and it is highly irresponsible of them to ship these machines out this way. ..."

THATS the type of Ready- Fire - Aim, stuff I've been talking about.

Opinions blurted out everywhere - with little foundation - nd it's harder and harder to tell the ones based on actual FACT, from the ones that SOUND rational - but turn out to be largely blather when the dust settles.

By the way, that was posted under a "handle" as are most web musings these days.

It would go a LONG way to settle things down if folks would just post under their own names( like here on the Cow!) so that everyone needs to be responsible for what they get right, neutral or wrong, over time.

Might server to settle things down. Or Not! 😉

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Shane Ross
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 27, 2018 at 12:26:54 am

[Bill Davis] "“In my opinion, Apple seriously screwed up here. The testing that I did was easily within Apple's capabilities, and it is highly irresponsible of them to ship these machines out this way. ..."

THATS the type of Ready- Fire - Aim, stuff I've been talking about."


AH! GOTCHA! OK...and yeah, that guy who packed it up and shipped it back immediately, and a fix came an hour later...that is a bit too much. OK, I'm picking up what you're putting down.

[Bill Davis] "By the way, that was posted under a "handle" as are most web musings these days."

Yeah, I hate it when people do that. Protecting their reputations behind a mask. I'm all about putting it out there and backing up what I say.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Bill Davis
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 27, 2018 at 5:39:57 pm

[Shane Ross] "Yeah, I hate it when people do that. Protecting their reputations behind a mask. I'm all about putting it out there and backing up what I say.
"


AMEN my friend.

That said, I'm sure if I went to the WAYBACK machine and pulled down all my old posts, at least a solid 30% of them would have me hiding under my desk in a ego crushing cringe-fest.

The inter webs have no mercy. And apparently an infinite memory!

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Michael Gissing
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 27, 2018 at 12:20:29 am

An interesting and as usual polarising debate. Having been around hardware software developments for many years and also specing and building my own computers, here's what I think happened.

The push is to make a laptop look ultra slim and exciting. It must also be quiet. No noisy fans to break the creative flow. Nothing wrong with that but when it meets the engineering bods who say a chip with this grunt needs the following thermal consideration and the design is making it really tough, the software guys, say "OK we can put code in that makes sure it won't get too hot and potential cause issues". Engineers are cautious. After all when dams and bridges fail, people die. The software does exactly what was required based on cautious engineering advice. Like all design it's the compromise between aesthetics and function. There are no mistakes here, all is intentional and the units ship.

Someone instantly discovers the software, designed to do exactly what was recommended, means the new big grunt chip computer has the same speed as last years cheaper less grunty chip unless you add active cooling (your freezer). Sales and marketing rush in and say "Make it go faster without using a freezer". Engineering says the calculated failure and damage will go up X%. Sales say "We can handle that. After all they won't burst into flames like the Sony laptop batteries will they???Plus, we've been handling keyboard problems and other design issues for years with these laptops". Software says, "We can fix the performance problem but we can't fix the thermal design issues which engineering have warned you about". The engineers hate compromise so they walk out of the meeting.

Over time we shall see if the engineers were right or overly cautious. Lots of people will happily shell out for the best and never get the machines close to breaking point. Unfortunately the heavy users like DITs on set in jungle and desert conditions or on the go graphics people who are pushing deadlines are the ones most likely to encounter issues. With all hardware and software we spin the chamber and click the trigger every day. Caveat emptor.


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Miha Pece
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 27, 2018 at 6:17:26 am

I think Apple is still king for mobile editing. I would love some real competition here, but I’m not holding my breath.

Sure, I would prefer better-cooled laptops. Maybe not just for that 5% better render time, but especially for easier repairability and longevity. My first MacBook pro 15” died because of graphic card failure. On current pro 13” 2011 I had to change battery twice, trackpad, replaced faulty dvd drive with sdd, and charger also twice. I upgraded RAM and recently repasted a heatsink (wish I did this before). All this things are hard to do with new design. If Apple would give us 5-year warranty, let’s do it. Without it, it’s quite risky endeavour.

Miha Pece
editor


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Tim Wilson
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 27, 2018 at 11:04:15 pm

[Miha Pece] "I think Apple is still king for mobile editing. I would love some real competition here, but I’m not holding my breath."

Look, I don't want to derail a very interesting thread, but Apple's intentional lack of ambition for mobile computing is one of the big things that lost me. Not any gnashing of teeth or outrage on my part, as much as a shrug. "Really? That's all ya got?" I think there's a LOT of great non-Apple options.

What I love about my Dell XPS 15 isn't just the years of enjoying a 4K touchscreen, DDR 4 RAM, a proper keyboard, and lots of other stuff, but Dell's incredibly low-priced, but highly effective ON SITE repair. This is a big deal for me. I live in a remote, humid location -- on an island where in the past 6 months alone, we've had to replace 5 ceiling fans, a TV, a washing machine, and a microwave solely because wobbly power and salt air fried the circuit boards, often in a lovely hail of sparks.

And the one time I had a problem with a logic board, I went straight to a dedicated support number for Dell mobile workstations, and they dispatched someone to my house with the part the next day. It happens that there are a number of military installations on the island, and repair people here are well-stocked....but one time, our cat knocked my wife's laptop off the table, and it landed face down on the floor. She needed a new screen, hinge, and wireless antenna (the wifi card is where you'd expect under the keyboard, but the antenna runs behind the screen) so it took all of 3 days for the parts to be FedEx'd and the repair guy to be sitting at our dining room table making the fix.

For this, we pay the princely sum of $145 for 3 years iirc. Something very close to nothing, on top of a machine that I got with better specs and a lower price than an MBP....that they'll service in my house within days of my call to their mobile workstation hotline.

And yes, the repair agreement covers stuff like the cat messing up the machine, pouring daquiris on the keyboard, whatever. No restrictions. (The agreement doesn't mention cats or alcohol, but it does mention drops and liquids.) If I need help, there's no discussion about why, or who's fault it is, or whether it's "acceptable" trouble.

I get that if you're using FCPX or will only use Macs for whatever reason that this isn't an option, but man, the LAST thing I'd say about Apple is that they're king for mobile editing. Y'all know that I remain mightily enthusiastic for X, and strongly believe that a strong Apple hardware platform is good for the whole industry, even folks using Windows.

But even more than desktops, where the iMac Pro is dynamite imo, I feel like this is an area that they've really stopped trying the way they used to. I don't use Apple stuff, but I take no pleasure from them not swinging for the fences anymore. I WANT them to do better.


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Tom Sefton
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 29, 2018 at 4:12:27 pm

That’s really, really impressive service for an amount far less than Apple care.

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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Bill Davis
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 27, 2018 at 5:45:04 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Jul 27, 2018 at 5:46:42 pm

[Michael Gissing] "With all hardware and software we spin the chamber and click the trigger every day. Caveat emptor."

Amen to this entire post.

Some kid somewhere right now is eyeing his dorm room six pack cooler and thinking.

"Hey, I bet I can design a bolt on vodka based evaporative chiller that i9 users could strap under their laptops that would let them solve the heat problem and PARTY after work simultaneously... I should fire up the CAD system and take a run at this..."

Ingenuity runs strong in the professional video tribe.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Aug 1, 2018 at 6:30:33 am

[Bill Davis] "Well, if you say so.

(I'm presuming you have a computer hardware engineering degree and a clear understanding of their implementation, of course.)
"


Any small form factor computer (be it desktop or laptop) will have to throttle a CPU like the i9 because there simply isn't strong enough cooling to let the CPU go full tilt for any extended period of time (I'm working under the assumption that exotic cooling methods are not being employed). Couple that with the fact that Apple values low weight and low noise more than performance and it shouldn't be surprising that Apple's laptops will throttle more, and throttle sooner than, say, gaming laptops which will be much larger and have better cooling solutions because performance is valued above low weight and low noise.

The much bigger (relative to a laptop) iMacs can aggressively throttle their CPUs which leads some people to install software on their iMacs to manually control the fans. This allows them to run the fans sooner thus leading to less CPU throttling, but at the cost of having a louder machine. Even pro-Apple videos/websites (some of which wrongfully doubted the original reviewer's results) are completely upfront that Apple will be more apt to throttle in order to get a thinner, lighter, quieter product out the door (and for many users this is a preferred trade off).


[Michael Gissing] "Unfortunately the heavy users like DITs on set in jungle and desert conditions or on the go graphics people who are pushing deadlines are the ones most likely to encounter issues."

The original reviewer that started this whole thing was transcoding a five and half minute long 5K Scarlet-W clip into 4K H.264 in his home (which presumable is air conditioned). Not exactly an edge case. ;)


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Michael Gissing
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Aug 1, 2018 at 8:14:47 am

[Andrew Kimery] "he original reviewer that started this whole thing was transcoding a five and half minute long 5K Scarlet-W clip into 4K H.264 in his home (which presumable is air conditioned). Not exactly an edge case. ;)"

Indeed not, but since then Apple have changed the power throttle software, it will be the power user that finds the breaking point now that Apple are letting those users get much closer to the edge.


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Bill Davis
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Aug 1, 2018 at 7:36:22 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Aug 1, 2018 at 7:38:41 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Couple that with the fact that Apple values low weight and low noise more than performance"

I'd just change that to "most Apple customers value low weight and low noise.."

And

[Andrew Kimery] "The original reviewer that started this whole thing was transcoding a five and half minute long 5K Scarlet-W clip into 4K H.264 in his home (which presumable is air conditioned). Not exactly an edge case. ;)"

Again, I'd argue that anyone working with 5K Scarlet-W clips is the very definition of an edge case. This is again the view that professional video editors are the CORE of MacBook Pro consumers.

You and I and others here at the upper end of the pro video market might WISH that (like their 3D rendering, MMPORPG and VR brethren) users who have a legit need for the fastest machines possible, could drive the entire product lines designs - but it's something I doubt very much will ever happen.

IF constant GruntCrunch type of work is your goal - any laptop, really makes little sense.
It will always be a "when I can't get to my serious rig" solution. That user will surely have a big desktop alternative available.

I think this whole idea simply comes up because not everyone can afford to support dual systems - and these laptops - by still being "pretty darn good" at things we really should be letting desktop systems do - let LOTS more people participate in the creative content creation space.

That's a great thing in and of itself. Not something to bash them for when theres a reasonable compromise necessary to seek BOTH performance and portability in the same unit.

Basically, if there was a MUCH better solution that could crank through more work faster and fit in a briefcase and didn't look too ugly - a lot of folks would logically simply buy that and be done with it.

But I don't hear much about people flocking away from MacBook Pros to laptops from PC manufacturers for purely performance reasons. That IS sometimes talked about when discussing price alone. But not so much performance alone, IME.

But I could be wrong. Like most editors, I tend to be stuck in my suite - and get out less than I'd sometimes like.

My 2 cents.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Aug 1, 2018 at 7:54:37 pm

[Bill Davis] "Again, I'd argue that anyone working with 5K Scarlet-W clips is the very definition of an edge case. This is again the view that professional video editors are the CORE of MacBook Pro consumers. "

While I would generally agree, I'm not sure how much of an edge case it really is. Otherwise, why would Apple be offering this deal?

https://www.apple.com/us/search/RED+RAVEN+Camera+Kit+%2B+Final+Cut+Pro+X?sr...

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Aug 1, 2018 at 8:21:10 pm

[Oliver Peters] "While I would generally agree, I'm not sure how much of an edge case it really is. Otherwise, why would Apple be offering this deal?"

To allow all the Millenium DXL and Weapon owners a safe space in which to keep arguing that Apple gear isn't for "serious pro" users?
(I won't tell Cioni if you don't!)

😁

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Aug 1, 2018 at 10:31:23 pm

[Bill Davis] "I'd just change that to "most Apple customers value low weight and low noise..""

Apple has a long history of praising what they have, condemning what they don't and then praising what they just condemned as soon as they have it, so I'd say what most Apple customers value changes based on what they are being sold. 😉

[Bill Davis] "Again, I'd argue that anyone working with 5K Scarlet-W clips is the very definition of an edge case. This is again the view that professional video editors are the CORE of MacBook Pro consumers. "

Replace "video editor" with 'anyone with a CPU intensive task' and all of a sudden you have a much larger demographic.

[Bill Davis] "But I don't hear much about people flocking away from MacBook Pros to laptops from PC manufacturers for purely performance reasons. That IS sometimes talked about when discussing price alone. But not so much performance alone, IME."

If Apple licensed MacOS out to other hardware makers I think you'd see a lot of people choosing to buy non-Apple laptops, but when the only option is to leave Apple's walled garden the decision is a harder one to make (hence the point of the walled garden).

At least I'm glad we finally all agree that, by design, the 2018 i9 MBP doesn't perform as well as other i9 laptops which don't place as much emphasis on size and weight.

[Bill Davis] "IF constant GruntCrunch type of work is your goal - any laptop, really makes little sense. "

Obviously, though this splinter thread was about laptops vs laptop performance, not laptop vs desktop performance. No one expects desktop performance out of a laptop, but I'm sure most people that see the advertised max clock speed of the MBP just assume it can sustain that speed for more than a matter of seconds before getting throttled down to its base clock speed.


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Michael Gissing
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 28, 2018 at 12:15:53 am

I don't buy the 'bug' line. Apple never admit to bugs like the behaviour of FCPX grade tool that just got quietly fixed. Calling it a bug makes me suspect it wasn't. Actual bugs never get publicly outed by Apple.


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Oliver Peters
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 28, 2018 at 12:36:31 am

Here's a link to his original review, which was linked in that article. It was updated after the firmware update.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/07/2018-15-inch-macbook-pro-review-bet...

This is an interesting observation that he makes:

"Apple is trying to push its own envelope with the CPU options it has included in the 2018 MacBook Pro, but it's business as usual in terms of GPU performance. I believe that's because Apple wants to wean pro users with serious graphics needs onto external GPUs. Those users need more power than a laptop can ever reasonably provide—especially one with a commitment to portability."

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Jul 28, 2018 at 4:23:00 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Those users need more power than a laptop can ever reasonably provide—especially one with a commitment to portability."
"


This makes sense.

Also, not just portability, but sensible thermal management.

"Need SERIOUS power? Consider the Grointanner 6000 - the 6 internal GPU laptop for editors who have absolutely no desire for future children..."

😊

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Andy Field
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Aug 1, 2018 at 5:20:05 pm

Bill, that's pretty funny

Andy Field
FieldVision Productions
N. Bethesda, Maryland 20852


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Bill Davis
Re: The new Mac Book pro
on Aug 1, 2018 at 7:42:40 pm

[Andy Field] "Bill, that's pretty funny"

Thanks.
We surely need as many smiles and laughs as we can find in life.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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