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Simon Ubsdell
Apple and the relentless pursuit of excellence ...
on Apr 26, 2018 at 7:24:34 pm







Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
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Bill Davis
Re: Apple and the relentless pursuit of excellence ...
on Apr 26, 2018 at 8:05:54 pm

My god, he's SO right.

We need to change everything.

For Gods sake No more of THESE -



We need more of THESE!!!!



MUCH easier to build, repair, and shouldl last a lot longer without anywhere near the constant maintenance.

Argument won.

There's NO WAY Apple should ever have become the most successful company on the planet by thinking any differently.

We're all just stupid sheep.

I'll start immediately trying to change.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Apple and the relentless pursuit of excellence ...
on Apr 26, 2018 at 8:31:06 pm

Oh dear.

Watch the video, Bill.

And put your inflated rhetoric back in its box.

Simon Ubsdell
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Bill Davis
Re: Apple and the relentless pursuit of excellence ...
on Apr 26, 2018 at 8:39:36 pm

But Simon, without inflated rhetoric, I am nothing.

😊

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The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Apple and the relentless pursuit of excellence ...
on Apr 26, 2018 at 8:44:56 pm

[Bill Davis] "without inflated rhetoric, I am nothing."

Not so. You have a great deal to offer.

But when it comes to evaluating the internal workings of Apple hardware, I'm reluctantly going to have to go with Louis rather than your good self.

Simon Ubsdell
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Bill Davis
Re: Apple and the relentless pursuit of excellence ...
on Apr 26, 2018 at 8:58:48 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "But when it comes to evaluating the internal workings of Apple hardware, I'm reluctantly going to have to go with Louis rather than your good self."

Perfectly acceptable.

There are MANY who will be concerned with the attributes the OP values most on his post, and they need representation.

As do those of us who have different priorities.

It's excellent that we have a variety of free market choices and can buy things that fit our preferences.

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Bill Davis
Re: Apple and the relentless pursuit of excellence ...
on Apr 26, 2018 at 8:38:32 pm

I also found everyone's next laptop!!

Durable. Spacious and most important MODULAR so you can fix it SUPER easily and not annoy ANY repair technicians!



Buy yours today!

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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greg janza
Re: Apple and the relentless pursuit of excellence ...
on Apr 26, 2018 at 10:12:11 pm

In all fairness I would guess that a similar type of video could be made about Dell, Lenovo or Samsung products since we're talking about tech companies that are creating millions of devices annually.

But the video does a great job of illustrating how marketing is probably the most powerful factor in Apple's continued success.

And Bill, if your only argument is that Apple makes more beautiful lemons than the competition then Apple may have some real issues.

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Bill Davis
Re: Apple and the relentless pursuit of excellence ...
on Apr 26, 2018 at 11:04:09 pm

[greg janza] "And Bill, if your only argument is that Apple makes more beautiful lemons than the competition then Apple may have some real issues."

Nope.

My argument is that the market has spoken and Apple is the largest company in the world based on the value people perceive they get from adopting Apple products.

Sure they make mistakes.

But nobody's forcing people to buy, use or remain using these products. And they've been out there competing for market share for decades now.

If people wanted Brutalist style buildings - or ASUS style hunky "fixable" component based laptops - that's what you would see people using.

But you don't.

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Dominic Deacon
Re: Apple and the relentless pursuit of excellence ...
on Apr 27, 2018 at 7:24:57 am

[Bill Davis] "If people wanted Brutalist style buildings - or ASUS style hunky "fixable" component based laptops - that's what you would see people using."

Asus laptops look okay to me. I think if you're after the best looking computers though you're probably buying a HP or a Microsoft rather than either Asus or Apple.




I don't really buy the idea that the numbers of computers Apple sells proves their worth. Coke sell a lot more sugared water than anyone else. It's not because of their own relentless pursuit of excellence as there's not much you can do with sugared water. It's the advertising and their brand image that moves the bottles.


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Shane Ross
Re: Apple and the relentless pursuit of excellence ...
on Apr 27, 2018 at 5:03:20 pm

[Bill Davis] "My argument is that the market has spoken and Apple is the largest company in the world based on the value people perceive they get from adopting Apple products. "

Apple is the largest company in the world because of iPhones and iPods...and also iPads. NOTHING to do with their computers. If they went back to only making computers and OS and software...they'd be right back to their small market self.

They aren't successful because of the COMPUTERS they design that are nice and thin and sleek...and expensive to fix and limited in many many ways (because thin-ness is the main goal). It's because of the popularity of the iPhone (started by the iPod).

Apple's MacTube is a failure...one reason they haven't updated it for so long is due to lack of sales and interest in it. iMacs do better, but really, most people buy their laptops. But their top of the line computers, the MacPro...lately are the BOTTOM of the ladder of apple products bought.

Shane
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Bill Davis
Re: Apple and the relentless pursuit of excellence ...
on Apr 27, 2018 at 8:29:24 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Apr 27, 2018 at 8:42:36 pm

[Shane Ross] "Apple is the largest company in the world because of iPhones and iPods...and also iPads. NOTHING to do with their computers."

We simply disagree on this.

What accelerated Apple's growth out of the "beige box" era - and into the company they are today - was a switch in focus from exclusively better software - to a new level of BOTH software and hardware expertise.

The iPhone and the iPod were only POSSIBLE because Apple doubled down on design, manufacturing AND software during the post Scully and Amelio era.

It's no surprise that nearly all laptops today follow MacBook design aesthetics. Or that nearly all smart phones look essentially like iPhones. Here's a prediction. When the modular MacPro arrives - wait a year and see what happens in overall computer design.

Is there a chance they will make a misstep as with the trashcan MacPro? Sure. You can't innovate without taking chances.

But when you search "laptop" computer on Google right now, count the number of returns that are thin and aluminum compared to those that look much different. They may be different colors, but their FORM is all nearly identical. And totally contrary to all the legions of voices at the time saying "we don't want laptops that are THINNER - we want laptops that are more powerful!!!"

Apples COMPUTERS are still informing the overall design of the class. Because everything NOT Apple, still looks like it's stuck in the design of either the 1990s - or some weird R. Geiger Alien Gamer-centric universe.

Again, search Google for "iMac alternative." There they are. All in one "slab" units from Lenovo, Dell, Acer et al.

Game over! 😉

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Shane Ross
Re: Apple and the relentless pursuit of excellence ...
on Apr 27, 2018 at 10:39:44 pm

[Bill Davis] "What accelerated Apple's growth out of the "beige box" era - and into the company they are today - was a switch in focus from exclusively better software - to a new level of BOTH software and hardware expertise."

Uhm...do you forget that Apple ALWAYS made hardware and software? Their computers came with their OS only...ever since they started the MACINTOSH line. Even the iMac couldn't save them, needed Bill Gates to invest $500 million in the company to help keep it going. iPods came out, with iTunes...and that started the boost. But iPhones is what made them the richest company in the world. Not computer sales. Computers are a very SMALL part of their business anymore. Seriously Bill...tiny.

[Bill Davis] "Apples COMPUTERS are still informing the overall design of the class."

DESIGN...but not power. They used to be the machines creatives turned to for video editing power. Now? A PC running windows will blow any MAC out of the water processing and GPU wise. ALL Apple has going for it is "cool factor" and neat designs when it comes to computers. Well, that and a solid OS. But power? No, that isn't what Apple is known for any more. Slick looking..yeah. that's about it. Design and looks don't help one win in the video creation realm.

Shane
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Neil Goodman
Re: Apple and the relentless pursuit of excellence ...
on Apr 27, 2018 at 10:55:44 pm

[Bill Davis] " When the modular MacPro arrives - wait a year and see what happens in overall computer design.
"


Just like how every one copied the trash can...oh wait ☺


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greg janza
Re: Apple and the relentless pursuit of excellence ...
on Apr 27, 2018 at 11:42:48 pm
Last Edited By greg janza on Apr 27, 2018 at 11:48:06 pm

[Bill Davis] "Apples COMPUTERS are still informing the overall design of the class."

Nope. You're just plain wrong about this due to your overwhelming bias.

Apple in 2018 is predominantly a phone company and only in a very small niche way a computer company.

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Ronny Courtens
Re: Apple and the relentless pursuit of excellence ...
on Apr 26, 2018 at 10:55:18 pm

Ah, we have seen videos like this before, and we will continue to see videos like this. Just Google "HP computers suck" or "Dell computers suck" and you will see other people ranting over other types of computers. There are even complete "HP sucks" websites with hundreds of comments from disappointed users. Really nothing special.

When you look at the laptop malfunction rates published by Quora in 2017, Apple is right in the middle next to Dell, with Asus having the lowest malfunction rate and HP the highest. The red letters below the chart represent the quota given to tech support for each company, based on real-world tests published in March 2018:



As I said, really nothing special.

- Ronny


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Apple and the relentless pursuit of excellence ...
on Apr 27, 2018 at 7:40:01 am
Last Edited By Simon Ubsdell on Apr 27, 2018 at 7:51:11 am

[Ronny Courtens] "As I said, really nothing special."

I think you're rather glossing over the detail of the case that Louis makes.

All hardware fails, but that's not the point.

His contention, backed up with concrete examples, is that Apple hardware has failed specifically because of poor decisions in the components used and the methods of construction.

He goes on to argue that Apple have failed to address the specific issues involved and allowed the consequences of those poor decisions to persist for several years.

He argues that Apple's warranty schemes are very unhelpful in terms of addressing these problems.

He contends that Apple have implemented seriously poor decisions in their "solutions" to the specific hardware failures.

He claims that Apple have had to face litigation before they do the right thing and fix these problems.

His view is that Apple have the resources to "do better" and that customers can reasonably expect that of them.

He makes the point that Apple charge premium prices for what are meant to be "premium products" while not adhering to the sort of quality manufacturing standards that justify that positioning.

(Specifically the "unibody" that was never a unibody but two badly glued sections is an egregious example where Apple tried to market something that they hadn't in fact built and which was destined to failure from the design stage.)

His argument ultimately is that Apple are knowingly short-changing their customers and as someone who sees the consequences of that on a daily basis he is understandably angry about it on their behalf.

He may be right and he may be wrong but to dismiss his case with a wave of the hand would be unfair given the level of detail that he adduces.

Simon Ubsdell
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Bill Davis
Re: Apple and the relentless pursuit of excellence ...
on Apr 27, 2018 at 12:18:38 pm

But Simon, the mechamism to address this is already firmly In place.

If Apple isn’t serving their customers in a way that meets those customers needs, another vendor will inevitably come along and out-compete them.

There’s no lack of competing brands, after all.

In this era Computers aren’t magical obscure devices, they’re standard retail products.

If another company steps up to design better, manufacturer better, market better, or simply out hustle Apple, they presumably should start to sell better as well.

Last time I looked, nobody was standing outside Apple Stores forcing customers inside.

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Oliver Peters
Re: Apple and the relentless pursuit of excellence ...
on Apr 27, 2018 at 12:28:36 pm
Last Edited By Oliver Peters on Apr 27, 2018 at 12:30:28 pm

[Bill Davis] "If another company steps up to design better, manufacturer better, market better, or simply out hustle Apple, they presumably should start to sell better as well."

Actually, the market has spoken. As a class, Windows/PC products outsell macOS/Apple products. In a tally of laptops by brand, Apple is fairing worse than others. You can certainly tout profitability, but that's because Apple customers tolerate paying a premium price.

https://www.laptopmag.com/articles/laptop-brand-ratings

https://www.statista.com/statistics/263393/global-pc-shipments-since-1st-qu...

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Apple and the relentless pursuit of excellence ...
on Apr 27, 2018 at 12:36:38 pm

[Bill Davis] "If Apple isn’t serving their customers in a way that meets those customers needs, another vendor will inevitably come along and out-compete them. "

So your argument seems to be that unless the market reins you in from producing shoddy goods, you should just go right ahead and keep on doing it.

It might be good business practice (and then again it might not) but it's hardly admirable.

I thought you wanted us to admire Apple not hold them in contempt?

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Bob Zelin
Re: Apple and the relentless pursuit of excellence ...
on Apr 27, 2018 at 6:49:23 pm

Louis Rossmann is possibly the best Apple tech in the United States. He has all the facilities to repair Apple products at component level - to the dismay of Apple. And he has had numerous threats of lawsuits against him, for displaying Apple confidential schematics on his YouTube presentations.

The bottom line here is - if you have a Mac that is dead, and Apple won't fix it - Louis Rossmann CAN and WILL fix it, no matter what Apple says can, or can't be fixed. Rossmann makes his living primarily fixing Apple products. He can certainly express his opinions.

With the recent fiasco of macOS High Sierra nonsense with third party drivers that I have faced, I am becoming more aggressive in my attitudes towards Apple products. While the iMac Pro is a fine product, I don't (and can't) make my living with a bare bones Mac and FCP X software. If I can't interface OTHER PRODUCTS to an Apple computer - be it GPU's, I/O Boxes, thunderbolt adaptors, 10G and 40G adaptors, external storage, external shared storage, etc. then I CANT MAKE A LIVING. And if Apple makes it more and more difficult to tie in THIRD PARTY products to Apple computers, then yes, I am going to be very vocal about this, and continue to complain. I have been involved with Apple computers since the beginning days of AVID. I am not a PC person, and I am not a newbie to Apple products. I don't like the increase of Apple's isolationism from other third party companies, that only want to use their products, so they can help their clients (and help sell Apple computers).

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Apple and the relentless pursuit of excellence ...
on Apr 27, 2018 at 7:44:08 pm

[Bob Zelin] "Louis Rossmann is possibly the best Apple tech in the United States. He has all the facilities to repair Apple products at component level - to the dismay of Apple."

For those of you who don't have the time to watch the full video, here's Louis' list of talking points:

1:01 - A1226/A1260 2007-2008 Macbook GPU failures, warranty service refusal
2:21 - A1226/A1260 2007-2008 Macbook Pro hinge/frame problem
3:16 - A1286 Macbook Pro - the "Unibody" myth, glued together pieces fall apart
4:58 - A1286/A1297 MCP power circuit failure due to poor buck converter design: C7771 issue
6:01 - iPhone 4 cellular placement fail
7:12 - iPhone 5 power button problem
7:27 - A1286 2010 Macbook Pro GPU kernel panics due to same buck converter defect from 2008/2009(this gives you a hint that apple engineers doesn't give a **** about engineering good products, same design flaw for three straight years)
10:04 - A1286 2011 Macbook Pro GPU failure, Apple gets sued over not addressing problem.
11:43 - Apple gives out badly refurbished boards as warranty replacements for 2011 GPU failures.
13:06 - 2012 Retina Macbook Pro: another motherboard issue (U8900), due to poor soldering/manufacturing method on the GPU buck converter.
14:46 - Mac Pro GPU failure (again).
16:27 - iPhone 6/6+ touchscreen issue due to structural issue.
18:23 - SSD soldered straight into the motherboard+ chip that would kill the macbook, because a power line would short out to ground when the chip dies.
20:18 - 2016 Macbook keyboard reliability issue.
21:52 - 2016 Macbook Battery failure issue.
22:50 - A1278 Macbook Pro SATA cable failures(yes, really).


Simon Ubsdell
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Bill Davis
Re: Apple and the relentless pursuit of excellence ...
on Apr 27, 2018 at 8:34:25 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "So your argument seems to be that unless the market reins you in from producing shoddy goods, you should just go right ahead and keep on doing it."

Uh, not sure how you can support "shoddy" when the metrics on customer satisfaction always seem to pretty constantly favor Apple products.

I can see the premium price argument. But unless you can show me stats that Macs fail at a rate higher than the similarly priced competition - I don't think "shoddy" is a fair shot.

And, BTW, I've definitely had apple products that have had various manufacturing issues. But in EVERY case, they've made it right without issue, at the local Apple retail store where I"m just another customer.

Maybe any extra profit partially goes to insure that? Apple as the Nordstrom of computer makers?

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Shane Ross
Re: Apple and the relentless pursuit of excellence ...
on Apr 27, 2018 at 10:49:21 pm

Oop. Sorry, I forgot. There is no point in debating anything Apple with Bill. Apple does no wrong. And if they do, it's quickly remedied... or so minor that you are insane for even bringing it up.

Let's not even get into their accounting practices used to not pay their fair share of taxes...you know, since they dwarf the economies of many countries.

Shane
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Oliver Peters
Re: Apple and the relentless pursuit of excellence ...
on Apr 27, 2018 at 11:50:38 pm

[Bill Davis] "But unless you can show me stats that Macs fail at a rate higher than the similarly priced competition - I don't think "shoddy" is a fair shot. "

Really?

https://www.ifixit.com/laptop-repairability

https://www.laptopmag.com/articles/laptop-brand-ratings

https://www.statisticbrain.com/laptop-malfunction-rates/

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: Apple and the relentless pursuit of excellence ...
on Apr 28, 2018 at 3:22:17 am

Okay, got the message. From your view, Apple is officially all crap and a barely 2 percent worse "repair score" from a global manufacturer is reason enough to JUST SAY NO.

Got the message.

I guess I should take a moment to say goodbye to all of you who feel Apple is too old and too slow now to be relevant.

Clearly you will all be migrating to the Cows other PC, Adobe and BlackMagic boards in search of others who have seen the light where you can start your migration towards those superior solutions.

(Maybe the mods can warn the other branded groups about the big influx of participants they will be getting as Apple collapses as a computer company.)

I'll miss you all.

Drop me a note from where you end up and I'll turn the lights off here when the last of you are gone.

😉

/s

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Apple and the relentless pursuit of excellence ...
on Apr 28, 2018 at 7:58:34 pm

[Bill Davis] "Okay, got the message. From your view, Apple is officially all crap and a barely 2 percent worse "repair score" from a global manufacturer is reason enough to JUST SAY NO. "

Sorry, but you were the one who asked for stats. Don't blame others if you don't like the answer.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: Apple and the relentless pursuit of excellence ...
on Apr 28, 2018 at 10:19:55 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Sorry, but you were the one who asked for stats. Don't blame others if you don't like the answer.
"


But I don't dislike them at all, Oliver,

They're all within such an extremely narrow range that I can't imagine the differences enter into anyones decision making.

Without a more compelling delta - it's a push, IMO.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Apple and the relentless pursuit of excellence ...
on Apr 28, 2018 at 2:38:04 am

[Bill Davis] "But Simon, the mechamism to address this is already firmly In place.

If Apple isn’t serving their customers in a way that meets those customers needs, another vendor will inevitably come along and out-compete them.

There’s no lack of competing brands, after all.

In this era Computers aren’t magical obscure devices, they’re standard retail products.

If another company steps up to design better, manufacturer better, market better, or simply out hustle Apple, they presumably should start to sell better as well.

Last time I looked, nobody was standing outside Apple Stores forcing customers inside."


Except Apple has been creating an ecosystem with higher and higher walls for the last fifteen years or so with the explicit purpose of making it increasingly painful for customers to move away from the platform. Whether it's HomePod stiff-arming 3rd party music streaming services or Shake for Windows being killed, Apple keeps burning bridges to non-Apple options.


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Douglas Bowker
Re: Apple and the relentless pursuit of excellence ...
on Apr 27, 2018 at 10:48:42 pm

The video hits the nail right on the head, which to be honest is all glaringly obvious to anyone not enamored with, in love with or otherwise is not looking to worship their hardware but just wants it to work. Apple makes luxury goods the way Louis Vuitton makes luxury luggage, or Rolex makes watches. Pretty, high maintenance status symbols that require "special" handling and care. As an animation and video professional I've learned to build and repair any number of machines over the years, some brand-made, some some custom. Hands-down Apples are always the most time consuming and difficult to fix or upgrade.

It's like each step of the way they had an evil engineer that deliberately tried to think of the most obscure way to put the thing together! Owners will almost always cop the company line about it being more "elegant" because no screws are visible or some other corporate kool-aid. Don't make me laugh! It's got nothing to do with it, and besides that is just letting the tail wag the dog. Sure, on the lower end Dell and HP also make machines difficult to fix or upgrade too, but not with their production oriented workstations or higher end laptops. There's nothing to say you can't have a well designed and elegant machine that is also convenient and easy to service. Oh, right! That would have been the old Mac Pro machines!

And please, enough with the fantasy arguments that they've got a lock on beautiful or ergonomic products. First it's pretty obviously untrue at this point, and second that's not an excuse for bad design overall. As a trained industrial designer I find their products diverged from anything like "form follows function" a long time ago. Each new laptop or computer they come out with gets less easy to use, takes away obviously useful (if not vital) features like USB, HDMI, SD card slots and ethernet ports. All of which my sleek Lenovo laptop has built in, which has a better graphics chip, more RAM and cost half of what my wife's Macbook Pro did. I can run animation programs and anything Adobe can throw at it and I had it set up with a 2nd monitor in less than 5 minutes, no adapters needed. And BTW how does have a tangle of adapters and dongles hanging off that Macbook look appealing?

Let's put this in the context of an automobile: How about taking away all the exterior door knob/handles so that it looks "sleeker?" Good idea? As long as you have the special remote key you'll have no problem right?
Oh, and how about remove the radio and have it Bluetooth only access via a smartphone? "Oh, look how elegant it looks inside!"
And then let's make access to the engine have no visible seams! Let's require mechanics have have a whole new set of proprietary tools, making it impossible for the owner to even add windshield washer fluid or oil. Nope, they need to bring their car to the Smart-Guy Bar! Any of that sound even remotely appealing or at all defendable? I didn't think so.

Apple was a company that truly cared about real design innovation 20 years ago. They had incredible engineering teams, hired brilliant industrial designers and pushed the envelope in terms of making tools for artists and designers. Nothing will ever take that away. The first few generations of iPhones were a revelation for me! I couldn't believe all the thoughtful features and details they'd put into them.

But then about 8-10 years ago everything changed. It was all about the money, period. Artists and designers were not where the big money was at. Spoiled teenagers were never going to lust after the next video editing machine, and even then couldn't be induced to buy a new one every two years. What they used to spend on real engineering now went into marketing to the point where you could actually make lesser products and have people pay more for them, and defend it more than paid corporate communications managers. Now that's genius. Evil genius maybe, but that's OK, right?

Doug Bowker

3D Animation Motion Graphics, and Video for the Medical and Technical World

http://www.douglasbowker-motiongraphics.com


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Neil Goodman
Re: Apple and the relentless pursuit of excellence ...
on Apr 28, 2018 at 12:43:36 am

First of all Im a total apple guy, I have basically everything they make except a watch and the homepod and I dont plan on buying a PC for my home anytime soon because an I mac is all ill ever need at home.

but..I'm not a fanboi by any means. The Apple design for computers have gotten old and stale. All you have to do is look at the product line since the first silver macbook pro's became available . Nothings changed since, except its gotten skinnier and lost a lot of ports - the same design is still there at the core.

Same with I macs - in the last 10 or so years they've only gotten skinnier as far as design.

People buy them (including myself) because of i phone/ ipad integration and because Apple has/had marketing aimed at youth and pop cultures and because people think they are cool. Its a status symbol as others pointed out, but I can admit - ill pay a premium for it but in no way am I blindly thinking I have a superior product than most of the competition.


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Scott Thomas
Re: Apple and the relentless pursuit of excellence ...
on Apr 28, 2018 at 6:34:23 am

Sorry, I could only get to about :55 before I had to stop.

I stopped listening after the author called Apple "luxury". That is BS. In my opinion, Apple is egalitarian.


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greg janza
Re: Apple and the relentless pursuit of excellence ...
on Apr 28, 2018 at 3:37:31 pm

[Scott Thomas] " In my opinion, Apple is egalitarian."

Like everything else with Apple, that egalitarian notion is also changing:

https://www.techradar.com/news/from-bright-white-gadgets-to-boutique-how-th...

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Jim Kreitner
Re: Apple and the relentless pursuit of excellence ...
on Apr 28, 2018 at 4:43:54 pm

Scott Thomas "I stopped listening after the author called Apple "luxury". That is BS. In my opinion, Apple is egalitarian."

Scott, I'm at a loss for your use of 'egalitarian' in this case. There are several criteria which may commonly be referenced when using the term: social, political and economic equality. Which is your point of reference? Because you quoted the word 'luxury', (which generally means something 'high-end' -and by association, 'high-cost'), you must not be referring to economic equality, since in that sense Apple products certainly tilt heavily towards that side of the scale of being a luxury for many (not being judgemental about whether they're worth the cost, only the socioeconomic reality that their cost would automatically exclude some members of society and make them non-egalitarian; so please clarify what the intention of your statement was.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Apple and the relentless pursuit of excellence ...
on Apr 28, 2018 at 5:29:28 pm

[Scott Thomas] "I stopped listening after the author called Apple "luxury". That is BS. In my opinion, Apple is egalitarian."

Jobs might have envisioned the Mac as "the computer for the rest of us" but that was in terms of usability, not price. Apple products have always been positioned as a premium brand. Apple never competed with Dell or Compaq or IBM in the race to the bottom. I remember when Dell started pummeling the market with $300-$400 computers and Apple responded by making the eMac available to the general public at the low, low price of of $1000 (which made it the least expensive Mac at the time). Later $500 would get you a Mac Mini, or $500 would get you a PC that came with a keyboard, mouse, monitor and most likely a printer.

The high margins and PR/marketing that elevated the Mac to more than 'just a computer' obviously paid off well for Apple. And to be fair the fit and finish on Apple products is, or at least used to be, much better than on other competition. I remember opening up my old dual CPU G4 tower for the first time and being amazed and how the build quality and attention to detail was so much better than what my experience had been with Gate, Dell and HP.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Apple and the relentless pursuit of excellence ...
on Apr 28, 2018 at 6:56:49 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "And to be fair the fit and finish on Apple products is, or at least used to be, much better than on other competition. "

Well, at least after Jobs came back. I known plenty of folks (me included) with scrapped knuckles and sliced fingers after working on 9500, 9600, etc series Macs.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Scott Thomas
Re: Apple and the relentless pursuit of excellence ...
on Apr 28, 2018 at 10:26:27 pm

I was a reluctant Mac user in 1994. I came to appreciate the PowerMac after a few months. I think the worst Mac I experienced was the beige G3 with a motherboard failure, but it at least had better ingress than the 9500.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Apple and the relentless pursuit of excellence ...
on Apr 29, 2018 at 9:04:56 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Well, at least after Jobs came back. I known plenty of folks (me included) with scrapped knuckles and sliced fingers after working on 9500, 9600, etc series Macs."

Agreed.

An interesting aside about Jobs (and this is mainly source from the biography that came out a few years ago) is his problems balancing making the products he wanted and making products that were commercially viable. A big reason for his ouster from Apple is that his vision for the Macintosh kept blowing the budget and he wasn't willing to bend. With Pixar, he basically told Lasseter and company to make great stories and don't worry about costs which lead to some great stories, but also a some great costs This setup Disney buying Pixar in the 90's. NeXT was more of the same.

I think tech advances, Ive's minimalist designs, and Cooks supply chain management help usher in the success of Jobs 2.0 at Apple.


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Paul Hillman
Re: Apple and the relentless pursuit of excellence ...
on Apr 28, 2018 at 7:51:57 am

The author mentioned he has been working on Apples since 2008, I've been designing/building/repairing stuff since the 70's. (One thing that still puzzles me, back in the 70's I had a spreadsheet program on a 64K SWTP computer with a preference to work in degrees not radians, still no modern spreadsheet has that option.) I really don't find Apple computers that hard to work on, and I've replaced just about every component there is to replace over the years. One post here summarized the problems mentioned in the video. I've had many of the models mentioned and have only have had a GPU problem on an original Intel MBP as a broken/burnt out part (this may seem contrary to the earlier sentence, but there is replace to upgrade vs. replace to fix due to mishandling, vs. replace to fix due to defective/burnt out part). Maybe people are pretty rough on their stuff, rougher than really designed for (like the problem with iPhones bending/breaking when put in back pockets and sitting down on them). Maybe Apple hardware now is not the best for the price, but I really don't like the alternative OSs for one reason or the other. But I do like the Apple ecosystem intergration, like being able answer my cell phone left in another room on my desktop or laptop. And although the Apple hardware failure rate looks to be middle of the pack, having an Apple Store in town beats most other manufactures. I've had Dells repaired by independant 'professionals' that were poorly done. As far as cost, Apple has to pay for those 'free' genius bars somehow. And that GPU (above) was fixed by Apple at a lower price than I could find the motherboard anywhere on the internet.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Apple and the relentless pursuit of excellence ...
on Apr 28, 2018 at 12:07:41 pm

This guy sounds like any mechanic.

My good buddy’s dad was a mechanic for nearly his entire life. Every single car, no matter the make, model, price, luxury, or practicality was a “shitbox”. Every. Car.

Every frame a painting? No, every car a shitbox.

When you get inside the machine for too long, you start to see the flaws. You become aware of every decision, every dollar saved, every process demystified, every marketing term uncovered.

I admire his crusade to put himself out of a job for the betterment of the Apple buying public. It’s a noble cause.

As far as your comment, Bob Zelin, about third party drivers, that is definitely more of a concern for me. I just recently switched to High Sierra, only because 10.4.1 required it. I had some issue getting SAN clients up and running. Nothing too major, nothing unsolvable, but definitely not as plug and play as it has been in the past. When working with support, they mentioned that Microsoft has enabled more strict changes in driver signatures for third parties. So, it’s not only Apple that is doing this. It seems to be a current security trend.

Also, my Wacom drivers were blocked upon reinstall. That was super weird.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Apple and the relentless pursuit of excellence ...
on Apr 28, 2018 at 12:45:29 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "This guy sounds like any mechanic.

My good buddy’s dad was a mechanic for nearly his entire life. Every single car, no matter the make, model, price, luxury, or practicality was a “shitbox”. Every. Car. "


Exactly.

I love all guys like this. I love their passion and their frustration and their perfectionism.

We don't have to take everything they say as the definitive answer to the big picture, but it enriches us to listen to them once in a while.

Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki


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Bill Davis
Re: Apple and the relentless pursuit of excellence ...
on Apr 28, 2018 at 10:31:59 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Apr 28, 2018 at 10:33:07 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "When working with support, they mentioned that Microsoft has enabled more strict changes in driver signatures for third parties. So, it’s not only Apple that is doing this. It seems to be a current security trend. "

THIS.

Driver stuff, hardware authentications, log in's - site visits - with cookies or without.

Used to be I could do six months of business computing without being challenged to authenticate that my virtual presence was provable EVER.

Now if I go a week without a challenge code being sent to my phone to authorize access to some account, web portal or process, it's the exception - and I've had days where I've had to cross that type of gateway a dozen times. I expected it from financial institutions - but the new obsession from so many general data repositories is a big shift.

Things have definitely evolved/changed in that space across ALL manufacturers and developers VERY rapidly.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Apple and the relentless pursuit of excellence ...
on Apr 30, 2018 at 1:17:57 pm

It might be a good time to revisit this video from NAB 2017 ☺







- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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