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FCPX or R15?

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Oliver Peters
FCPX or R15?
on Apr 18, 2018 at 8:56:42 pm

I find the Resolve threads here fascinating. 2.5 million FCPX users notwithstanding, is Apple playing catch-up now to Blackmagic Design and Resolve? It amazes me that a community where a trackless UI was so thoroughly embraced, now looks at Resolve 15 (tracks and all) as something even better. Why?

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Bernard Newnham
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 18, 2018 at 9:32:06 pm

I've been trying out Resolve 15 over the past few days. I'm coming from Premiere and before that FCP7. It's pretty amazing, and extremely free. If you're paying Adobe every month - it may be time to move on. Resolve was a colour corrector last time I looked, and an industry standard. Now it's just an option along the bottom of the screen, along with Edit, Fusion and Colour

As for FCPX? Well.......

Bernie


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 18, 2018 at 10:42:36 pm

[Bernard Newnham] "...I'm coming from Premiere and before that FCP7. ...
As for FCPX? Well......."


I completely get that folks coming from other NLEs would find Resolve intriguing. I just find it fascinating that FCPX users would want to go that route. Unless, of course, FCPX is missing something major or the whole "trackless, "magnetic" thing was just an interesting novelty for awhile. That's the part that I don't really understand.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Shane Ross
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 18, 2018 at 10:18:18 pm

[Oliver Peters] " is Apple playing catch-up now to Blackmagic Design and Resolve?"

I say no. The metadata searching and organizational attributes of FCX make it a stand out app. THAT to me is more important than an NLE with pro audio page and VFX page. How many editors also do high end audio mixing PLUS high end VFX? I know that more and more we need to wear more hats, so the audio I can see...VFX, not so sure. As an editor, organization and finding footage is far more important...

Bear in mind, I haven't seen DR15 in the flesh, as I don't unofficially beta test.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 18, 2018 at 10:44:00 pm

[Shane Ross] "Bear in mind, I haven't seen DR15 in the flesh, as I don't unofficially beta test."

It's just a download away. ☺

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Scott Witthaus
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 18, 2018 at 11:41:09 pm

Having played with several versions of Resolve, including the “very” beta R15, I would say this is a non-discussion. Perhaps you would be better posting this on an Adobe site or Avid.

IMHO, FCPX is FAR better an editor than R15. Faster by a mile. Far better interface. Way more stable. And it can do about 80% of the other stuff Resolve does.

I don’t believe in this “good enough” BS and neither do my clients. As a storyteller, I choose the best product to make their story come alive, and that happens to be X right now (it was EMC, then Avid, then FCP7). Resolve, to me, is a very good color correction tool, and in the hands of a colorist, it;s great. But that’s the point. If a client’s project needs more CC than my skill set can provide, that’s when I go to an expert on the tool that’s best for that which could be Resolve. But to try to make a comparison between X and Resovle is (IMHO) silly.

And Oliver, didn’t you say that Avid and Discreet failed in their attempt to make the “all in one” system. So why do you think Black Magic can do any better?

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Visual Storyteller
https://vimeo.com/channels/1322525
Managing Partner, Low Country Creative LLC
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 18, 2018 at 11:59:21 pm

[Scott Witthaus] "Perhaps you would be better posting this on an Adobe site or Avid.....
......And Oliver, didn’t you say that Avid and Discreet failed in their attempt to make the “all in one” system. So why do you think Black Magic can do any better?"


I really only see that much interest here among FCPX users, except for the anti-subscription crowd on the Adobe side. Hence, my fascination with the question. I do know some Avid folks who have expressed interest, but more out of curiosity.

As far as all-in-ones, I don't feel that the concept, as designed, will necessarily win out in the marketplace - except maybe for the price. So I'm not posting from either a pro-FCPX or pro-Resolve POV.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Scott Witthaus
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 19, 2018 at 12:04:49 am

I would tend to disagree. There is HUGE interest among the abandoned DS group (I think you are a member of that forum). With the Fusion integration, this might be the product they have been wishing for. The Avid folks I know see Resolve as potentially the Symphony they never had. God knows what Adobe is thinking...

As Steve said, Resolve is this product that gets a lot of interest around NAB then just fades back. I would say if R15 is taking any market share , it’s from Avid or Adobe. FCPX is kind of the outlier here and probably for the best.

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Visual Storyteller
https://vimeo.com/channels/1322525
Managing Partner, Low Country Creative LLC
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Michael Gissing
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 19, 2018 at 12:36:33 am

I agree with Scott that we should choose the best tool for the job. That's why I've never been able to use X as it's not close to being a finishing tool for sound and grade for me. That's why Resolve is critical to me and all those pages are making the tool much more useful as I move from three computers running standalone software to one running Resolve. But I finish and editing for me is part time and usually simple. That's about to change on the doco I am producing. I will edit in Resolve simply because the huge advantage of not translating and losing work via xmls outweighs the differences between X and Resolve as edit tools.

The difference between X and Resolve as finishing tools is becoming even greater with V15. They are not comparable. The difference between X and Resolve as edit tools is much closer and for many the difference is small enough to consider given the huge advantage of a genuine single system that Resolve is so close to achieving for me. (I still prefer Fairlight standalone)

All that said, I would never tell an editor they must use Resolve in order to be compatible with me. They should and do use whatever they feel gives them the best result. I think the reason this is being discussed more here is this is the debate forum after all plus of all edit systems, X seems to have the slowest pace of development and that must be of some concern to users.


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 19, 2018 at 7:59:41 am
Last Edited By Robin S. Kurz on Apr 19, 2018 at 9:52:41 am

[Michael Gissing] "But I finish and editing for me is part time and usually simple."

That being the key statement, yes. Seeing that that is the first and foremost reason you'd even want to be using X to begin with, so criticizing or comparing it from a finishing perspective… erm, well… 😏



[Michael Gissing] "X seems to have the slowest pace of development and that must be of some concern to users."

I guess someone hasn't been paying attention. 😄

- RK

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Walter Soyka
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 19, 2018 at 11:45:03 am

[Oliver Peters] "As far as all-in-ones, I don't feel that the concept, as designed, will necessarily win out in the marketplace - except maybe for the price. So I'm not posting from either a pro-FCPX or pro-Resolve POV."

We're all using applications that can organize footage, create and modify timelines, stabilize, mask, track, comp, effect and color images, add graphics, and mix and route audio. Isn't everyone in this forum already using an all-in-one?

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
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Ronny Courtens
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 19, 2018 at 1:37:23 am

I think Scott hits the nail right on the head.

I really like the way Resolve is evolving. It has been part of our companies' workflows from day 1, and it will continue to be part of my toolset as it continues to grow. I think it is a wonderful addition to Final Cut Pro X, and both apps work together pretty well. Having seen the Premiere and Resolve demos on the NAB floor, as well as the "what's new" presentations of both companies at the SuperMeet, it is crystal clear now that Blackmagic is going directly for the Adobe video customers with Resolve.

The Supermeet presos felt like a pissing contest, with Adobe and Resolve presenters fighting each other for showing off the largest numbers of new features. During the Premiere presentation, a dozen of (very young and very eastern) BM guys in black stood at the end of the hall watching every move of the Adobe presenter and making notes. You could feel the negativity build up as the presenters started to openly criticize the competition. Each of the companies had also brought their own cheerleader team to the venue, who sat among the crowd (the room was 2/3 full) and made sure that there were some applause and some cheers with every new feature that was announced. It was so obvious that it actually felt cheap, on both sides.

The day before I was at the FCP Exchange event where some 350 people (I have counted) attended the Apple presentation. The room was full, some people had been waiting in the corridor for some time to get in, and many attendees were standing against the walls. No word about any other NLE or any competitor, just a relaxed demo of the new things in FCP X followed by a show from the Ripple guys and a great case study from the director and the editor of "Despacito". Quite some honest applause from the crowd, no cheerleaders needed.

Apple was also extremely present on the NAB floor. I think they clearly know that they are right on track (pun intended) with FCP X and that they don't have anything to fear from anyone. Because there really is no competition for FCP X as an NLE. Either you like it or you don't like it, and today there seem to be many, many people who like it. For the others, there is a shitload of track-based, "feature-packed" solutions to pick from.

So I hope that Adobe and Blackmagic will stimulate each other as they fight for the same client base. I honestly think that Avid is safe for another few years (unless they go broke). But, however this turns out, it will have zero effect on what Apple will continue to do with FCP X.

- Ronny


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Robert Moran
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 19, 2018 at 4:14:31 am

R15 is the first rev of Resolve that has legs. Most of the pieces are there on the edit side but R15 still does not have the polish and flexibility of FCPX. I am doing a short clip as we speak and it's going well but the rough edges are definitely there in terms of the video side of the equation. Have not worked much with Fairlight and am just starting to learn Fusion but the integration of these modules, along with color grading, is seamless and very well thought out. IMHO, Apple should by BM and integrate the apps as both programs are really good without question. BM has a real winner here once they get all the pieces in place to enable one to do the complete job of sound, edit and composition in one easy to use app. Price point is terrific and having it run on all major platforms is stellar. Will post the clip once it's done.

As an aside, the stabilization is like FCPX, excellent to a fault.


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Sebastian Leitner
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 19, 2018 at 6:31:21 am

resolve is great but the performance of FCPX is unmatched. apple closes up its system more and more, making it difficult for devs to come close to any underlying processes. i love resolve and use it besides FCPX daily. for me, those two tools combined really shine and trump all the other contestants. resolve wants to be a lot, not all parts are there yet though. and the interface/settings are a lot like adobe, which means over-complicated and bloated. then again, it's constantly growing and changing, blackmagic is talking to users and pros alike.

my crystal bowl says something like: resolve will kill adobe on mac very soon. now that it has fusion built-in. avid will still stick around due to the great tools it has had since the beginning and the deep connection to TV and film. but then there will be FCPX still standing with its unique magnetic timeline approach and 'real' non-linear editing, amazing speed and easy-of-use. with the new color tools of 10.4 and captions it basically has everything one needs.

easyDCP even released their publisher for FCPX now, you can export for cinema directly from within your timeline. even less reason for resolve (which i use on a daily basis for mastering DCPs). yes, resolve has some great/better tools and tries to present the 'all-incl' solution, but i see me going back to X all the time even though i love resolve.

on windows, resolve is even more interesting, it brings many of FCPX's features and workflows, including fantastic media management (where adobe really falls through).


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Shawn Miller
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 19, 2018 at 4:59:28 pm

[Robert Moran] "IMHO, Apple should by BM and integrate the apps as both programs are really good without question. BM has a real winner here once they get all the pieces in place to enable one to do the complete job of sound, edit and composition in one easy to use app. Price point is terrific and having it run on all major platforms is stellar. Will post the clip once it's done."

I doubt that Apple would keep BMD applications cross platform in that case... or even keep them in tact as standalone programs. What I really appreciate about BMD is their singular and unique vision to empower creators with the most powerful tools at the lowest price. I can't imagine Apple embracing that vision.

Shawn



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Bill Davis
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 19, 2018 at 6:55:55 pm

[Shawn Miller] "What I really appreciate about BMD is their singular and unique vision to empower creators with the most powerful tools at the lowest price"

I believe this - but it's also useful to understand that to achieve this BM pretty much sees the entire video industry from a largely IP perspective.

And that's a HUGE shift in thinking.

There are huge, huge benefits to the new IP production approach. But many of us trained in the older video traditions have to re-think everything we know about how even some of the simplest video plumbing stuff works in order to advance into the new era heading towards us.

For instance, it used to be knowing how to setup and white balance a production camera was a mission critical live shoot skill. Now knowing how to manage IP addresses on a network is WAY more critical.

Just food for thought.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Shawn Miller
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 19, 2018 at 7:59:47 pm

[Bill Davis] "I believe this - but it's also useful to understand that to achieve this BM pretty much sees the entire video industry from a largely IP perspective.

And that's a HUGE shift in thinking.

There are huge, huge benefits to the new IP production approach. But many of us trained in the older video traditions have to re-think everything we know about how even some of the simplest video plumbing stuff works in order to advance into the new era heading towards us.

For instance, it used to be knowing how to setup and white balance a production camera was a mission critical live shoot skill. Now knowing how to manage IP addresses on a network is WAY more critical. "


I pretty much agree with you if you're talking about BMD's vision for what the future of broadcast is, or could be. But I think they're just as focused on independent, scripted and documentary producers. Grant said as much in the closing of his press conference at NAB this year (around 35:35).







Talking about the Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4k "... so what you get is, you get the camera, and a full visual effects, editing, color correction and professional audio post production solution, all together... I don't see any other way, there's not much more we can do for people, to get them going and doing their own feature films and TV programming, but that's what it's all about, right, that's what we're all here for..."

In another interview (don't remember which one), he (Grant) said something to the effect that he didn't want the only creators in film and video to be the people who could afford the biggest loans... or something like that. He's been pretty clear about that from the beginning though, BMD exists to bring the cost of entry into production and post production to a point that most anyone with drive and creativity can create. I have to be honest... I actually believe him.

Shawn



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Brett Sherman
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 19, 2018 at 1:10:15 pm
Last Edited By Brett Sherman on Apr 19, 2018 at 1:14:46 pm

[Ronny Courtens] "Apple was also extremely present on the NAB floor. I think they clearly know that they are right on track (pun intended) with FCP X and that they don't have anything to fear from anyone. Because there really is no competition for FCP X as an NLE. Either you like it or you don't like it, and today there seem to be many, many people who like it. For the others, there is a shitload of track-based, "feature-packed" solutions to pick from."

That almost makes it seem like Apple was downright strategic with FCP X. Create a unique product that stands separate and let the others fight it out. It could be that it was completely accidental, but it seems to be working pretty well for Apple. If Resolve does take down Premiere, that would be an extremely short run for Adobe as an industry leader.


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 19, 2018 at 1:40:36 pm

[Brett Sherman] "That almost makes it seem like Apple was downright strategic with FCP X. Create a unique product that stands separate and let the others fight it out."

I think they are, but not in a contest with other NLEs. If you have ever met anyone on the ProApps team, you know it's a mix of people who have gone through the NLE wars, along with others to whom this is all new. So I think they want to - and are - creating an NLE that is designed for new users who are developing video literacy. It includes enough hooks to bring along the established editors, but that's not necessarily their prime target.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 19, 2018 at 1:37:22 pm

[Ronny Courtens] "I think it is a wonderful addition to Final Cut Pro X, and both apps work together pretty well."

I would completely agree with that. I, too, see it as complementary as an "online edit" tool.

[Ronny Courtens] "it is crystal clear now that Blackmagic is going directly for the Adobe video customers with Resolve"

Well, maybe. I think they are both chasing the "FCP8" market, which in turn means they are both going after Avid.

[Ronny Courtens] "The Supermeet presos felt like a pissing contest, with Adobe and Resolve presenters fighting each other for showing off the largest numbers of new features."

LOL. This is your first SuperMeet? ☺

[Ronny Courtens] "The day before I was at the FCP Exchange event where some 350 people ....Quite some honest applause from the crowd, no cheerleaders needed. "

Yep. I was there, too, and concur.

[Ronny Courtens] "it will have zero effect on what Apple will continue to do with FCP X"

True. However, in the context of R15 - if someone has no prior allegiances to any given NLE, then R15 for free is pretty hard to beat.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 20, 2018 at 12:54:18 am

[Oliver Peters] "True. However, in the context of R15 - if someone has no prior allegiances to any given NLE, then R15 for free is pretty hard to beat."

Not so sure about this.

The editorial engine is a traditional stacked track setup, but the minute you go to color stuff, you’re in node land - which may not be the most obvious neighborhood to move into. Don’t know Fairlight, but the whole Resolve suite seems designed like a very big house with a LOT of complicated rooms for a first time homebuyer.

If you’re Designing to make traditional pros in TV stations and production facilities happy - will you get the youngsters coming up to buy into that concept in large numbers?

Time will tell.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 20, 2018 at 1:08:21 am

[Bill Davis] "The editorial engine is a traditional stacked track setup, but the minute you go to color stuff, you’re in node land - which may not be the most obvious neighborhood to move into"

The editorial model is quite simple. If you don't mind tracks, it's easier to grasp than FCPX for many newbies. As far as color, you can, of course, leave that to later. But even in the color page, you don't have to go deep. The first node is there by default and in a single node, you can do more than the entire color toolset of FCPX (without building up correction layers).

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 19, 2018 at 7:55:33 am
Last Edited By Robin S. Kurz on Apr 19, 2018 at 8:05:53 am

[Scott Witthaus] "Avid and Discreet failed in their attempt to make the “all in one” system."

Never mind the amazing success of SMOKE doing the same, right? What a marketshare. 😏

I personally believe BMD are setting themselves up for a BIG world of hurt with the whole "all-in-one" thing. Which is why I'm hella glad that I'd say it's pretty much 210% sure that Apple will never opt for that path with Motion & Co. Thank god. I've spoken to many software engineers, ALL of which have said that patch working apps together like that is a developmental and support NIGHTMARE in the long run.

And sorry if I don't buy the imho sanctimonious, feigned "wonderment" over the usual hubristic chatter of a negligible few. Who are these supposed many exactly? Actual people where you think "Yeah… I totally trust their judgment!"? Names? Links?

Or maybe just the "I'm just one download away from automatically becoming a PRO and super VFX master AND can stick the finger to Adobe and Apple!" crowd (the last part of course being by far the most important one) that aren't any one thing in the end after all?

Or maybe some that throw it out there for a little inflammatory-fun? (Hmmm... like who?) That never get past the beta or a "Hell, it's free"-download themselves? In which case… who cares? What's the news at 11 here? I don't see it. Strikes me as rather click-baitish, sorry. As if it was ANY different with the last few updates? Er… no. A never ending cycle. 💤 Move along… nothing to see…

And just looking at ProRes raw… who exactly is leading and who will be following again? 😏

But then I can only speak for my world of course… where I have a lot to do with a lot of editors, post houses etc. etc. etc. … and have yet to bump into anyone that doesn't know what they have in FCP (and it's a LOT more than just "trackless" and "magnetic" 🙄). I for one don't see anyone (using X) taking Resolve terribly serious as AN EDITOR in comparison. Certainly not as a replacement. But certainly various others that download it for other "pages"… just as before. But as of 10.4 there are a lot less people going to Resolve as before for the coloring. Me being one of them.

And in the end, all I have to see is something like THIS (posted elsewhere as an example for brilliant "organization")…



… and I immediately know that even the most "extreme free" anything could NEVER get me back to the clearly inferior concept of "tracks" (never mind the ghastly, convoluted GUI). But to each his own, right? If Resolve best meets your needs, great! Go for it! All the power to you. Just suggesting it's anywhere CLOSE to being some sort of ominous doomsday competition to FCP… oh puh-leeze. I'd say you're making a fool of yourself.

- RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!
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Walter Soyka
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 19, 2018 at 12:07:34 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "And just looking at ProRes raw… who exactly is leading and who will be following again? 😏"

Apple is following: of course the camera manufacturers have their own raw formats, but CineForm RAW [sic] goes back to 2005 (at 12-bit, just like ProRes Raw, plus the really innovative Active Metadata concept -- 13 years ago!). There's also Adobe's CinemaDNG from 2009 (which Blackmagic adopted for their cameras). Both CineForm and CinemaDNG are open standards.

But I'm sure Apple will be leading shortly. They can use their market position to encourage the wide adoption of their proprietary standards, even in the face of existing proven, competitive, and open standards.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Bill Davis
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 19, 2018 at 1:36:01 pm

[Walter Soyka] "There's also Adobe's CinemaDNG from 2009 (which Blackmagic adopted for their cameras). Both CineForm and CinemaDNG are open standards."

But Walter, I know you are very well used to working with what are basically animation bred still frame sequences - but most of us video folk are not.

Those basically animation formats aren’t native to most video thinkers exoectations, so if ProResRAW provides enough grading latitude in a packetized format that simply works the way we’ve always worked - it stands poised to be a huge winner, IMHO.

Because they’ve got the data rate and compression into the range we are working with right now - nothing changes except we get new abilities to push color and luma to new heights.

No need to spend more on new hardware, software or ... anything.

That’s pretty compelling.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Walter Soyka
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 19, 2018 at 4:02:59 pm

[Bill Davis] "Those basically animation formats aren’t native to most video thinkers exoectations, so if ProResRAW provides enough grading latitude in a packetized format that simply works the way we’ve always worked - it stands poised to be a huge winner, IMHO."

You're right on that Cinema DNG is frame-based in BMD's implementation. Robin's right that this adds a performance penalty due to a ton of I/O overhead. The Cinema DMG standard also allows MXF wrapping, which would have solved both of your issues.

CineForm, though, is containerized (customarily MOV now, but AVI was also possible back in the day) and highly comparable to ProRes in file size, quality and performance. It met your criteria for "huge winner" a decade ago. Apple's clout is the thing that will drive ProRes Raw.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 19, 2018 at 2:37:58 pm
Last Edited By Robin S. Kurz on Apr 19, 2018 at 2:54:20 pm

[Walter Soyka] "There's also Adobe's CinemaDNG from 2009 (which Blackmagic adopted for their cameras). Both CineForm and CinemaDNG are open standards."

Wow. Seriously? 😄

I'm sorry, but to say that ProRes raw is "following" THOSE utter performance dogs is just silly. Apple are clearly leading with the first USABLE raw format in their own league. That's a pretty big and highly essential difference in my book. Maybe not in yours.

At least I for one don't know a single person in their right mind who would actually consider running an entire production on EITHER of the above (yeah, I'm sure there are some crazies somewhere… 😏). I just know that I (and many others) considered it once, tried a few test runs and quickly and decidedly said "No effin' way… like, ever".

ProRes raw [non-sic] on the other hand? Just finished capturing my first (small) production in it and was doing multiple streams of dailies off of a 2.5" external USB3 disk on an average MBP! So as far as I'M concerned… it's a game changer. Zero doubt about it. And so what if Apple is giving AtomOS their few days, weeks, maybe even a couple of months in the limelight? They deserve it. At the very latest, as soon the first DSLRs come out that send raw data via HDMI (and they will come)… game over. Never mind if they even end up simply capturing PR raw internally, which will come just as well, since cameras at that level have ZERO chance of going with any other raw format in terms of performance, if that's what they want to offer. And their users will be asking for it.

And I think it's a no-brainer that BMD and others will adopt it as soon as the ink on the license agreement has dried. If they haven't already.

- RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!
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Walter Soyka
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 19, 2018 at 4:09:07 pm

I agree that sequence-based systems have performance issues, but you've actually used CineForm? I find your comments surprising because I have built workflows on it, and I find it to be highly comparable to ProRes in image quality, file size, and performance.

I like ProRes a lot, but all other things being equal, I'd rather use a more open format than a more closed one.


[Robin S. Kurz] "And I think it's a no-brainer that BMD and others will adopt it as soon as the ink on the license agreement has dried. If they haven't already."

Let's ask Grant!







Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Shawn Miller
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 19, 2018 at 6:01:04 pm

[Walter Soyka] "I agree that sequence-based systems have performance issues, but you've actually used CineForm? I find your comments surprising because I have built workflows on it, and I find it to be highly comparable to ProRes in image quality, file size, and performance. "

+1 for Cineform. It was my go to digital intermediate codec for years. I also used CineformRAW to rewrap and recompress raw files from the DigitalBolex and Blackmagic Cinema Cameras for use in Premiere Pro. I was sad that they didn't continue to develop GoPro Studio any further for professional use.

Shawn



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Robin S. Kurz
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 20, 2018 at 10:10:27 am
Last Edited By Robin S. Kurz on Apr 22, 2018 at 10:21:23 am

[Walter Soyka] "but you've actually used CineForm?"

Heck yeah. A while back that was what a TV Pilot I edited was shot on exclusively. It was completely unusable natively. A complete no go on every system involved in the edit (the Avid's were of course completely lost either way). A little faster slide-show than RED, but without transcoding to something else… useless for actual work. PR raw isn't even an issue on an old iMac or MBP, off which I'm doing 4K 50p natively. Shall we compare that with 4K 50p Cineform footage on the same machines? 😏


[Walter Soyka] "I find it to be highly comparable to ProRes in image quality, file size, and performance. "

If you say so. But then I guess you had an entirely different version, max 720p, or simply a computer that was 5x more powerful in every respect. In which case… that's the whole point. All completely unnecessary with PR raw.

But seriously… if that were in fact true, and it was as brilliant as you say, then why exactly hasn't everyone (including BMD) adopted it as opposed to that (imho) nonsensical cDNG? Hmmm...


[Walter Soyka] "Let's ask Grant!"

Let's not. Since, if you had actually worked with PR raw, you'd know what he's claiming is complete hogwash and he of all people should seriously know better, don't you think? Claiming „it's a lookup table and a bayer package" or "it's a container with a LUT"… HUH? Either he's being willfully obtuse or just plain has no clue what PR raw in fact is all about and just going off guesses from some demo he saw somewhere? PR raw as a format has ZERO to do with lookup tables until it is inside FCP. And even then, they are 100% optional. So what exactly is he going on about? PR raw merely encapsulates the camera's metadata into the file, and, exactly as it has been doing since 10.3 with e.g. FS7 material off the camera, applying a — once again optional — standard LUT upon import, if it has one for the particular profile. Somewhat worrisome that he of all people would spread something so factually incorrect.



Fact is, BMD's already not so romantic (to put it very diplomatically) relationship with AtomOS, inevitably leads me to suspect, that he/they are just miffed that they were bypassed for the big news for both their hardware AND software (ouchy), but AtomOS not only wasn't bypassed (understandably), but even got exclusive dibs. Eek! So I suspect now they're pouting and playing coy as some sort of "PR-getback"? Saying "it has issues" and "it's for consumers at the moment"… oh really? 😂 I guess we'll see about that.

"The reason you want to do that is to bypass that stage and go into DaVinci…" oh yeah. And Davinci only. Obviously.

… oh wait… you can't. Oops. So clearly it must suck! Case closed. 🙄

Now I see what "issues" he's talking about. Not format but rather ego issues maybe? Acting as if they are the only one's that "know high-end-Mr.-Hollwood color science!" and that silly little phone company of course doesn't. Cleverly turning it into a sales-pitch for Resolve by effectively implying that "you can only trust us when it comes to quality color"… wow. That much hubris etched forever into the Tube? Be careful that doesn't come back from behind and…

Someone's coming across as a bit of a poor loser with incorrect statements like that. Because I highly doubt that BMD is getting around adopting PR raw sooner not later. As soon as more people get it into their hands, they'll be screaming for it as an option and opting for cameras that do offer it, guaranteed more often than not. In a year or less, the question will be "but does it do ProRes raw?" and I suspect be an ever more deciding factor whether to go with the one or the other. Or I could be completely wrong… then again… nah. 😜

We shall see.

- RK

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Scott Witthaus
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 20, 2018 at 1:14:44 pm

[Walter Soyka] "Let's ask Grant!"

Boy, I am really disappointed in this interview. Actually it's more like a PR/sales piece because the interviewer is tossing softballs.

Grant acts like R15 is the first system that EVER allowed an editor to play with color, audio and FX. Really? Expanding our world? Psychopath facility owners....way to go, Grant. Making friends.

And wow, if you don't want to use Fusion, that's ok because all the effects in the Edit tab are Fusion effects. Hmm, where have I seen this before? Dynamic linking? I am sure I have seen that somewhere before R15...

R15 will be a decent tool for those who want it, but it's not the savior to all of us poor shackled editors that it's made out to be here.

Scott Witthaus
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Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 20, 2018 at 2:07:21 pm
Last Edited By Robin S. Kurz on Apr 20, 2018 at 2:41:07 pm

Since I'm not one to install beta software willy-nilly, I'm in no position to check for myself, but after just seeing THIS…





(starting at 1:22)

… boy do I hope that r15's performance isn't only better than r14's, but in fact a few HUNDRED TIMES improved. Since this is just scary. I knew from passing use (of the editing page) that performance was bad, but… needing an eGPU with TWO beefy GPUs just to get realtime with a few 1080p clips that have effects, on a 2017 MBP?! Over AN HOUR for an 8-minute export without them?

They're kidding… right?

Even a base model iMac from a few years back would give me realtime and a fraction of export times running FCP. What's wrong with this picture? Surely there's something horribly amiss? How else could or would anyone consider this for even the most basic editing?

- RK

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Steve Connor
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 20, 2018 at 4:09:20 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "Even a base model iMac from a few years back would give me realtime and a fraction of export times running FCP. What's wrong with this picture? Surely there's something horribly amiss? How else could or would anyone consider this for even the most basic editing?
"


This is rubbish, I've just finished an FCPX project shot on Alexa on R15 in HD and the performance was excellent on my 2013 MacBook Pro, not as fast as FCPX of course but still very usable.

"Traditional NLEs have timelines. FCPX has storylines" W.Soyka


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 20, 2018 at 4:45:58 pm
Last Edited By Robin S. Kurz on Apr 20, 2018 at 4:47:01 pm

[Steve Connor] "This is rubbish"

Sorry to have triggered your pavlovian nerve so harshly… but feel free to point out when and where I said that that was NOT possible.

- RK

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Steve Connor
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 20, 2018 at 6:08:02 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "Sorry to have triggered your pavlovian nerve so harshly… but feel free to point out when and where I said that that was NOT possible.
"


Sorry I meant this bit

[Robin S. Kurz] "needing an eGPU with TWO beefy GPUs just to get realtime with a few 1080p clips that have effects, on a 2017 MBP?! Over AN HOUR for an 8-minute export without them?"

Based on my EXPERIENCE with R15 over the last few days, That bit is rubbish.

FYI could I just point out once again that I am an FCPX user, I've used it since it came out and I'm pretty sure I've used it just as much as you have so you don't have to trigger YOUR "pavlovian response" as well.

"Traditional NLEs have timelines. FCPX has storylines" W.Soyka


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 21, 2018 at 7:40:22 am
Last Edited By Robin S. Kurz on Apr 21, 2018 at 7:41:07 am

[Steve Connor] "Sorry I meant this bit

[Robin S. Kurz] "needing an eGPU with TWO beefy GPUs just to get realtime with a few 1080p clips that have effects, on a 2017 MBP?! Over AN HOUR for an 8-minute export without them?"

Based on my EXPERIENCE with R15 over the last few days, That bit is rubbish."



Oh, right. Jeff just COMPLETELY FAKED the video. Got it. My bad!

- RK

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Oliver Peters
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 20, 2018 at 2:57:23 pm

[Scott Witthaus] "Grant acts like R15 is the first system that EVER allowed an editor to play with color, audio and FX. Really? Expanding our world? Psychopath facility owners....way to go, Grant. Making friends."

Is this the first time you've been exposed to Grant? This is all pretty standard fair for him. He's a man on a mission. Why do you think there's been no love lost between AJA and BMD? Kind of ironic comments for someone he is also a facility owner, don't you think? ☺

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Steve Connor
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 20, 2018 at 4:12:54 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Is this the first time you've been exposed to Grant? This is all pretty standard fair for him. He's a man on a mission. Why do you think there's been no love lost between AJA and BMD? Kind of ironic comments for someone he is also a facility owner, don't you think? ☺"

It sounds a little like Apple PR don't you think ☺

Not sure why some of the FCPX faithful are so riled up about R15, we should be excited, it plays very well with FCPX and strikes a bit of a blow to Adobe!

"Traditional NLEs have timelines. FCPX has storylines" W.Soyka


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Steve Connor
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 19, 2018 at 12:25:31 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "… and I immediately know that even the most "extreme free" anything could NEVER get me back to the clearly inferior concept of "tracks" (never mind the ghastly, convoluted GUI). But to each his own, right? If Resolve best meets your needs, great! Go for it! All the power to you. Just suggesting it's anywhere CLOSE to being some sort of ominous doomsday competition to FCP… oh puh-leeze. I'd say you're making a fool of yourself."

Nice to see Robin back isn't it :)

"Traditional NLEs have timelines. FCPX has storylines" W.Soyka


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Neil Goodman
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 19, 2018 at 1:26:58 pm

its great to have so many viable options these days.

I don't see either FCPX or Resolve dethroning Adobe or Avid in the markets that they dominate now. I also don't think FCPX users are going to switch to something with tracks or without the organizational features of X because those are two of FCPX unique and strongest points.

I do love that all these apps are pushing each other in development. It seems like FCPX is developing at the slowest rate at the moment so it will be interesting to see what apple has up it sleeves when it does drop a big update.


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Bill Davis
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 19, 2018 at 1:46:28 pm

[Neil Goodman] "It seems like FCPX is developing at the slowest rate at the moment "

Huh?

How is adding a massive new grading facility, RAW support and an entire ADA compliant captioning system into an app in one year the “slowest” development?

Just look at the UI over the past couple of years.

X got lanes, re-organized the UI streamlining the central menu bar, and added powerful and unique functions like caption control inside the timeline index.

I look at the other NLEs and they look largely the same as they did a few years ago.

X doesn’t.

But maybe that’s just because I know it better?

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Scott Witthaus
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 19, 2018 at 1:50:22 pm

[Neil Goodman] " It seems like FCPX is developing at the slowest rate at the moment so it will be interesting to see what apple has up it sleeves when it does drop a big update."

Seriously?

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Visual Storyteller
https://vimeo.com/channels/1322525
Managing Partner, Low Country Creative LLC
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 19, 2018 at 2:40:25 pm
Last Edited By Robin S. Kurz on Apr 19, 2018 at 3:41:40 pm

[Scott Witthaus] "[Neil Goodman] " It seems like FCPX is developing at the slowest rate at the moment so it will be interesting to see what apple has up it sleeves when it does drop a big update."

Seriously?"


I know, right? 😜

- RK

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David Mathis
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 19, 2018 at 4:05:13 pm

FCPX being developed at the slowest rate?







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greg janza
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 19, 2018 at 5:15:52 pm

This business is constantly in flux so the notion of being devoted to one particular piece of software or hardware doesn't make much sense.

If Resolve becomes an NLE that serves post production needs in a more cost efficient and effective manner than the competition, then most likely it'll be adopted by the marketplace and post professionals will start using it en masse.

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Bill Davis
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 19, 2018 at 6:41:46 pm

[greg janza] "If Resolve becomes an NLE that serves post production needs in a more cost efficient and effective manner than the competition, then most likely it'll be adopted by the marketplace and post professionals will start using it en masse."

Well, using marketplace adoption as the metric of choice, FCP X wins globally for individual editing and AVID wins in the professional sphere.

Premiere Pro has certainly surged in the middle, but that's EXACTLY where BlackMagic seems to have set their sights.

I have to say that after working with the largely IP based BlackMagic system in Las Vegas, where every device (cameras, switchers, storage, etc, etc.) kinda looks like just another network node - I have a new appreciation of the change still happening out there in the video creation space.

If this keep evolving toward IP and the web, the real question is whether older style track based editing UI preservers in the eventual SaaS cloud era, or X's more database and exposed metadata centric model surges. After all, X with it's robust SQLite database bolted inside already, seems like it might be a better fit in the long run than software largely designed around 20 plus year old editorial concepts. But who knows.

Maybe AVID or Adobe or BlackMagic will take a big leap and crack the code of web based editing. Or maybe that's why Apple limited their X proposed life span to just 10 years - far shorter than the other two A's have already been out there - and saw another huge wave of changes on the horizon.

Hard to say.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 19, 2018 at 7:42:48 pm

[Bill Davis] "Maybe AVID or Adobe or BlackMagic will take a big leap and crack the code of web based editing"

Adobe, Avid, Quantel and others have shown and shipped web-based editing for quite a few years. At least editing via "the cloud". At NAB, The Foundry showed its applications, like NUKE, running completely in a SaaS model. They are a Google partner and Google is not only hosting the media and the software, but also the hardware for rendering. So if you want to use the web as a metric, Apple is pretty far behind the curve. Or at least I don't think they have the same interest in going there as others do.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 20, 2018 at 12:22:49 am

[Oliver Peters] "Or at least I don't think they have the same interest in going there as others do."

Not sure about this.

Only Apple and Adobe currently have the monetization back end in place to make SaaS a widespread global process. And by that I mean they have the retail hooks in place to scale globally - Adobe via a continuation of the rental model - Apple, if past is prologue, possibly keeping to the buy in once and let hardware sales handle the rest.

Neither Quantel or AVID (Let alone the Foundry) have the RETAIL brand experience. - as a company asking the wider retail market to buy into their platform.

Basically, they are all BtoB players except Adobe and Apple.

And as well as Adobe has done, the number of credit cards they have on file - and the general consumer reputation they enjoy, pales in comparison to the infrastructure Apple can wield.

As cloud editorial expands, Apple virtualizing FCP X (maybe starting with it’s iMovie subset?) seems to me like it would be a super easy lift.

Adobe virtualizing its dozens of CC products and keeping their full cabilities - seems a MUCH bigger stretch to me.

Who knows, maybe the 2011 re-conception of X was a bit about cleaning out the codebase cruft to make an on-line eventuality more possible?

Fun to speculate.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 20, 2018 at 1:02:50 am

[Bill Davis] "Neither Quantel or AVID (Let alone the Foundry) have the RETAIL brand experience. - as a company asking the wider retail market to buy into their platform.
Basically, they are all BtoB players except Adobe and Apple."


I don't understand your logic. SaaS when it comes to editing is ONLY a B2B product. There is no retail element to it. Quantel, FWIW, has been absorbed into Grass Valley, who is still repping their cloud NLE, Go. The Foundry is leveraging Google and is targeting their cloud product as an add-on for freelancers for facilities that otherwise have the applications running on-premises.

[Bill Davis] "Adobe virtualizing its dozens of CC products and keeping their full cabilities - seems a MUCH bigger stretch to me."

Actually their apps already run as a web front end. For all intents and purposes - at least in theory - they could shift over to Premiere running SaaS and it effectively only being the control interface locally. That's what Adobe Anywhere was/is.

[Bill Davis] "As cloud editorial expands, Apple virtualizing FCP X (maybe starting with it’s iMovie subset?) seems to me like it would be a super easy lift."

Well, no one is/was talking about the consumer/retail side of this at all. But if you what to position FCPX as a "prosumer" product, go right ahead ☺

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 20, 2018 at 4:42:00 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Well, no one is/was talking about the consumer/retail side of this at all. But if you what to position FCPX as a "prosumer" product, go right ahead ☺"

Happy to.

The R&D clout of being able to leverage sales in the millions is what changes industries in the current climate - not exclusively what serves the enterprise class.

Just ask the corporate business types who bet on Blackberries and whatched the tide of iPhones and iPads roll over them.

That rumor from a couple of years ago that Apple had something like 600 folks working exclusively on the iPhone camera section - is surely a part of why we now have phones that can shoot 4k and why they are moving so heavily and rapidly into news gathering and other traditional ENG camera spaces.

Heck, the last few months, I successfully managed to get XLR wireless audio direct into my iPhone X via the lightening port. I can set manual white balance and focus. The images are commensurate with what I had the first 20 years I spent as a shooter - and it's always with me.

And there is surely nothing more "consumer" nor "retail" than a smart phone.

Basically when the "consumer" level devices - at mass "consumer" level price points - start to functionally out-perform the "professional" devices well, that that's when things start to really shift.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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greg janza
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 20, 2018 at 6:24:37 pm

[Bill Davis] "Heck, the last few months, I successfully managed to get XLR wireless audio direct into my iPhone X via the lightening port. I can set manual white balance and focus. The images are commensurate with what I had the first 20 years I spent as a shooter - and it's always with me."

Advocating for consumer technology to be increasingly adapted into professional environments is really advocating for a complete disruption of the industry as a whole. These advancements are a boon for guerilla style production done on shoestring budgets but it doesn't necessarily help the overall industry.

This business has been so rewarding to me personally because of it's collaborative nature. A group of people with specialized skill sets come together to create an artistic product. Each person contributes a creative piece and the end product is better because of it.

DP's, field sound recordists, lighting technicians, PA's, field producers, writers, editors, colorists, sound mixers and many more folks are what drive the business.

I think it bears mentioning that the end goal of technology as it relates to video production isn't to create an all-in-one product that allows one individual to direct, shoot, light, record field sound, produce, edit, color, sound mix and deliver.

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Bill Davis
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 20, 2018 at 8:49:09 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Apr 20, 2018 at 8:50:06 pm

[greg janza] "I think it bears mentioning that the end goal of technology as it relates to video production isn't to create an all-in-one product that allows one individual to direct, shoot, light, record field sound, produce, edit, color, sound mix and deliver."

Music is instructive in this.

Absolutely, collaborative work is great. Symphony orchestras are WONDERFUL!
You can't field an orchestra and play that type of music without LOTS of collaboration.

But on the other hand, society has equally benefited from the solo artist. The musician toiling either solo or within a very small supportive collective to advance the state of the art.

Once upon a time, you COULD NOT create video without a big team behind you. Today, it's trivial.

It will not mean the demise of either method of work. It will simply ADD to the ability of both camps to produce quality work, IMO.

Heck, I want both and can't see any reason why I can't have both.

Wwe've had the big Hollywood studio/network TV system for nearly 80 years now. And it's record is pretty mixed. Some wonderfully shining examples of art - mixed in with a metric boatload of crap.

Even if this new era of the digital auteur produces EXACTLY the same mix, we still probably get more quality creative output overall.

And what's wrong with that?

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James Culbertson
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 26, 2018 at 9:04:27 pm

[greg janza] "Advocating for consumer technology to be increasingly adapted into professional environments is really advocating for a complete disruption of the industry as a whole. These advancements are a boon for guerilla style production done on shoestring budgets but it doesn't necessarily help the overall industry."

I'm getting a deja-vu feeling. I don't really want to use an iPhone professionally, but anytime I hear a bunch of professionals talking like this I know that the technology will be the next thing to be used in a professional way. May take a few years to get there, but this kind of thinking has repeated so often it is odd nobody realizes they are doing it. Today it is iPhones, but we could pick dozens of technologies that have been in a similar position in years past. ...non-proprietary desktop editing / Premiere in 1993-4 was the first one I experienced, but also After Effects, scanned photos (edited with Photoshop), the original FCP, Hi-8, mini-DV, web video (compared to DVD-Video, then Blu-Ray), digital intermediates, digital cameras instead of film, people would never watch films on their laptops or smartphones... I know I am missing a lot of others.

Anyway, one thing smart phones are really good at is getting candid people interactions in crowded locations. I just helped a friend edit a promotional video that was shot on an iPhone of him interacting (in a wandering performance way) with country fair attendees. A couple of hours of this stuff, and not a single person looked at, or ever seemed to notice, the "camera person." That's pretty unusual in my experience. Sure, the video footage is kind of mediocre overall, but the content is compelling for what he needs. One small example of where a nicer camera would not be better. FWIW.


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 20, 2018 at 6:28:57 pm

[Bill Davis] "Basically when the "consumer" level devices - at mass "consumer" level price points - start to functionally out-perform the "professional" devices well, that that's when things start to really shift."

If by that you mean an iPhone as a camera or an audio recorder, then BS!!!!!

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 20, 2018 at 9:01:25 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Apr 20, 2018 at 9:02:15 pm

[Oliver Peters] "If by that you mean an iPhone as a camera or an audio recorder, then BS!!!!!
"


We will disagree on this then.

Anecdotally, my wife has been doing a bit of VO work lately for a client who wanted easy female narration scratch tracks for work we're producing for some of our west coast clients.

So I did her initial recordings using my typical expensive VO chain. While I was at NAB, they called her for a pickup line. Problem was I had my VO mic and interface with me in case my clients needed work while I was gone. So in a pinch, I had her just stand in our coat closet and use her iPhone with the Voice Record App for the pickup.

She emailed the file directly to the producer, they cut it in, and -- nobody ever remarked on any difference.

I thought it might be just their unschooled ears - but I listened to her recording when I got back. Clear as a bell, close to zero noise floor. Excellent recording quality. Once again, I got a long held expectation shattered.

THIS is partly why my Neumann has been resting in it's case for months. It's inarguably superior to the relatively inexpensive Rode shotgun I have hanging over my desktop for quick web video vlogging stuff - but in typical use, literally nobody can tell any difference.

There MORE of that coming, IMO not less.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 20, 2018 at 9:38:21 pm

[Bill Davis] "I thought it might be just their unschooled ears - but I listened to her recording when I got back. Clear as a bell, close to zero noise floor. Excellent recording quality. Once again, I got a long held expectation shattered. "

I have a bit less concern with the iPhone recording audio with the right interface. After all people have been using Zooms for years. But, the functionality of either isn't there compared with a true, "pro" audio recorder. And yes, there is a difference, but not everyone will hear it.

However, when it comes to cameras, all smart phones camera suck compared to the real thing. The trouble is that people never really make a very discerning comparison. Sure the iPhone X's camera is great as far as phone cameras go, but it's still a highly compressed image that doesn't hold up side-by-side. Just because experimental filmmakers can do a feature or a commercial on an iPhone (including Soderbergh) doesn't make it superior to a pro camera. But people have been doing that sort of thing since way before "Blair Witch". It has a place, just like street performers compared to the ballet. ☺

I think what you are missing - and bringing it back somewhat related to this thread - is that folks like Grant and BMD are working hard to deliver a professional product with professional features at a consumer-level price. I'm talking mainly about hardware here. I think there's a big difference between that and what Apple is doing. Neither approach is right or wrong, just intended for different customers.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 21, 2018 at 8:11:45 am
Last Edited By Robin S. Kurz on Apr 21, 2018 at 8:15:39 am

[Oliver Peters] "However, when it comes to cameras, all smart phones camera suck compared to the real thing."

You realize of course, that no one ever even made any claim even vaguely to the contrary, nor was that the point to begin with?


[Oliver Peters] "Just because experimental filmmakers can do a feature or a commercial on an iPhone (including Soderbergh) doesn't make it superior to a pro camera."

There it is again.

“I think this is the future,” [Soderbergh] said. “Anyone going to see this movie without any idea of the backstory to the production will have no idea this was shot on the phone.” It’s the skill of a great artist to turn a limitation into a strength, and indeed, Soderbergh has harnessed the potential of the gizmo in your pocket to create a striking and affecting new visual dialect. Bad news, fellow laypeople: we no longer have any excuse for not having completed a feature film.
[…]
Don’t get it twisted, the iPhone’s no substitute for a 35mm camera; it’s its own thing, and all the better for it.
[…]
… but here, that quality is precisely what makes the iPhone perfectly suited for Soderbergh’s purposes in this film. The iPhone flattens an image’s depth of focus without losing clarity, creating a disorienting effect in which something feels wrong even when the frame is all in order. At times, the amount of visual information that Soderbergh can force into the foreground is somewhat overwhelming, as the brain rushes to decide where the eyes should be drawn. How better to communicate the mental interiority of a woman losing her mind?
[…]
Soderbergh also capitalizes on the lightweight maneuverability of the iPhone for some exhilarating seat-of-his-pants cinematography in the film’s most arresting scene.

(emphasis mine of course)

Yeah… HE certainly understands how nonsensical the "You're only as 'pro‘ as your equipment!!" notion is. Never asking himself if his equipment is what makes him "pro" or if it's actually how he uses what he has or… *gasp*… the content? 😳

- RK

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Oliver Peters
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 21, 2018 at 1:35:27 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "You realize of course, that no one ever even made any claim even vaguely to the contrary, nor was that the point to begin with?"

Go back and read Bill's posts.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 21, 2018 at 4:54:31 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Go back and read Bill's posts."

Better yet, read my latest post below where I bolster my contention that the camera section in a modern smart phone is rapidly gaining imaging parity with the best imaging devices of the not too distant past.

And I posted practical self shot images to defend that view.

Michael Cioni, in the video that will be out soon from the Faster Together stage at NAB, makes mathematically supported prognostications that the pace of camera sensor development is following some hard and fast scientific rules that may mean that many of the lines between classic analog and modern digital image acquisition (and storage!) are going to disappear sooner rather than later.

He sees resolution gains (and the practical use of the same) largely unconstrained by hard limits - if I’m interpreting his presentation correctly.

So don’t bet on the distance between the capabilities of a smartphone photo sensor and a “camera” photo sensor staying too far apart.

Particularly when the price commanded by a smart phone and a decent still or video camera keep creeping ever closer to parity.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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greg janza
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 21, 2018 at 4:47:33 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "Don’t get it twisted, the iPhone’s no substitute for a 35mm camera; it’s its own thing, and all the better for it."

I haven't seen Unsane yet but I have watched the trailer and it's quite obvious that the visuals are very weak in comparison to a film shot on 35mm like the newly released "A Quiet Place" which I have seen. The question becomes whether an audience can easily get immersed into a story if the technical aspects stand out. Does it become harder to have a suspension of disbelief with an iphone shot film?

Soderbergh has always been a fan of being on the bleeding edge and I have a lot of respect for his efforts to help democratize the industry. To a lesser extent David Lynch could also be noted for his "Inland Empire" which was shot entirely on a Sony DSR-PD150. I recall though, Lynch heavily treating his visuals so it didn't look like a digital video film.

I also recall with Lynch's effort that his film involved a lot of sound design which he used to engage the audience since the visuals didn't help immerse the viewer in the story (although story is as relative term when it comes to Lynch.)

The same might be true for Soderbergh's film although since it's a thriller sound design is always a forefront element.

One review of his iphone effort:

https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/23/17156978/unsane-movie-review-iphone-7-st...

In comparison, "A Quiet Place" was shot with traditional 35mm film and it's a visual tour de force. The cinematography by danish DP Charlotte Bruus Christensen is on an equal level to Bill Butler's work on Jaws or Vilmos Zsigmond on Close Encounters.

Obviously the iphone vs 35mm is an apples and oranges comparison since an audience is fully conditioned to the look and feel of 35mm. It's also a matter of 35mm cameras having a variety of lenses to craft that spectacular visual feel.

Here's an interview article with Christensen that explains her film making approach for "A Quiet Place":

https://filmmakermagazine.com/105175-a-very-old-fashioned-kind-of-filmmakin...

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Bill Davis
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 21, 2018 at 8:33:03 am

Sure there will be customers for Cioni’s Panavision DXL rig.
And customers for Red rigs.
And customers for C-500s
And customers for BlackMagic’s new “cargo-pocket” camera.
And plenty of customers for iPhones as well.

My point is simply that that the performance delta between these tiers keeps getting squeezed.

When I was starting out, anyone, Pro and consumer alike could see at a glance the quality difference between VHS playback and 1” type C.

And I could dependably hear the quality difference between a cassette recording and a reel to reel.

I’m not sure if you took a still image capture from the DXL - and one from my iPhone - at the same physical size - that most people would see a discernible difference.

And I know for sure they couldn’t hear the difference between a VO audio recording done on a studio XLR balanced system or one direct into my phone.

Absolutely the DXL would fill a movie screen WAY better. But for every set of eyeballs that sees it that way, chances are 100 sets of eyes will now watch it on a screen that’s home TV size or smaller and mostly, smaller than a piece of notebook paper.

And the problem is for every minute of content put through the DXL production chain, there are hundreds of hours now that go around that system and go direct from a pocket sized sensor and out into the world - and they serve the needs of their audience every bit as well as the big rig approach.

I don’t dismiss the need for any of those production levels or approaches.including the DXL.

But I know what I’m willing to bet grows fastest and has the most impact on the industry moving forward.

We’ll see in time.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Steve Connor
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 21, 2018 at 8:36:11 am

[Oliver Peters] "but it's still a highly compressed image that doesn't hold up side-by-side."

In certain circumstances yes, but I've used my iPhone 7 and iPhone X as an additional camera in multicam shoots with Sony FS7 and FS700s and it matches pretty well in the right lighting conditions.

"Traditional NLEs have timelines. FCPX has storylines" W.Soyka


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 21, 2018 at 8:17:36 am
Last Edited By Robin S. Kurz on Apr 21, 2018 at 11:02:01 am

[Bill Davis] "[Oliver Peters] "If by that you mean an iPhone as a camera or an audio recorder, then BS!!!!!"

We will disagree on this then."


Right there with you. Anyone that thinks recording "pro” audio or video on an iPhone is "BS!!1!1!!" will find themselves veeeery lonely up top their high-horse someday.

When multiple audio sources are involved I'll usually use an F4. But if only one lav is involved, which is more often than not, then I use a MKE2 Digital with Apogee's Metarecorder on an old iPhone with AirPods as monitors. Up to 96kHz, 24bit audio all iXML tagged, named, marked and subsequently exported with a FCPXML file for good measure and single click import and organization. I've even used one iOS device as the master for up to three satellites, in case I didn't feel like adjusting levels with my Watch that day.

Oh… but that's SO "non-pro" and any and every "pro" will catch that it is in a millisecond of listening to it. No question about it. Because one can't of course use an iPhone as an audio recorder!!1! Silly me. 😏
[/s]

- RK

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Herb Sevush
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 21, 2018 at 2:22:44 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] " But if only one lav is involved, which is more often than not, then I use a MKE2 Digital with Apogee's Metarecorder on an old iPhone with AirPods as monitors. Up to 96kHz, 24bit audio all iXML tagged, named, marked and subsequently exported with a FCPXML file for good measure and single click import and organization. "

But would you be just as happy to use the iphones's built in mic for recording? With video you are stuck with the built in, cheap, POS lens of the iphone, which is why there is no equivalence between recording audio and video on a smartphone.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
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"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Bill Davis
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 21, 2018 at 4:35:08 pm

[Herb Sevush] "But would you be just as happy to use the iphones's built in mic for recording? With video you are stuck with the built in, cheap, POS lens of the iphone, which is why there is no equivalence between recording audio and video on a smartphone."

Yes and BS in that order, Herb.

The iPhone mic is capable of excellent, extremely low noise digital audio recordings. No, it can’t beat physics and it has to be used like any other microphone in an appropriate setup. But if it is, it can yield excellent results.

And the lens system on the iPhone works exactly the same way. If the light hitting the sensor is managed properly, the quality of the results you get back can be outstanding.

As evidence, here are three of my iPhone snaps taken in the past few years. A landscape with lots of subtle tones. A heavily backlit full length portrait of my wife on a vacation, and a classic head shot I grabbed of our son in a restaurant one day.







No, they are not large format shots with a grip truck worth of gear on a set with stingers draped everywhere. What they are, instead is evidence of a camera functioning at a level that perfectly let me capture what I judged as being photo worthy without a lot of hassle.

And that’s what a great camera is.

A device that yields quality results when used properly.

Period.

I suspect the iPhone will prove to be the Leica of this generation. Small and simple, accessible, and amazing. That it also has a working phone and a personal computer attached to it is mind boggling.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Herb Sevush
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 21, 2018 at 6:15:24 pm

[Bill Davis] "I suspect the iPhone will prove to be the Leica of this generation. Small and simple, accessible, and amazing. That it also has a working phone and a personal computer attached to it is mind boggling."

So now you're comparing a Leica lens to the 30 cent piece of crap in your iPhone. And your comparing your snap shots to professional photography. And previously a scratch track recording to professional VO. If all this is true then why would you ever use your Rode for VO work? It's not the "grip truck full of equipment" that matters, it's the quality of the tools. You pay the money so that you don't "occasionally" get great results, you pay for equipment that will always give you great results, under any conditions. And you know that this is true Bill, everybody does, that's why you don't show up on your shoots with only your phone and a prayer.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Bill Davis
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 21, 2018 at 8:18:40 pm

[Herb Sevush] "You pay the money so that you don't "occasionally" get great results, you pay for equipment that will always give you great results, under any conditions."

"equipment" NEVER gets you great results.

The experience of the people behind the equipment does.

And what I've seen is that my experience is in danger of aging out.

I stopped using my Neumann and starting using a Rode because my Sony shotguns (that had been in service for 20 years) got too old and the internal wiring developed issues. I didn't want to spend a fortune, so yes, I picked up a modestly priced Rode shotgun to replace it. I thought long and hard about a Sennheiser, or an Audio Technica, or any of the dozen pro mics I know would hold value better. But then I came to my senses.

I've been was tossing OUT totally pro-quality gear for 15 years now. $30,000 cameras. Tungsten light kits. Announcer mics that cost me a bundle in their day. It has ALL aged out of reasonable service.

And about that cheap Rode mic?
Surprise, surprise, used property it actually turned out to work BETTER than those classic mics. All the off axis rejection, none of the sunk cost, and self noise that was essentially unmeasurable due to modern components - just like what you find in iPhone's recordings. A Sony that cost me $650 1985 dollars out-performed by an Australian knock off that cost me $100 bucks.

In Las Vegas to do the exact type of production I've been involved with for 30 years - we didn't run nearly as much XLR or BNC cable. But we ran a TON of Cat 5.

Buying for 20 years of equipment longevity was something I could support in the 80s. Because I got 20 years of use out of it. But now I look around and see WAY too much gear sitting fallow and virtually useless today. I'm shedding old gear again in two weeks. And it's a pain to see things I paid good money for ten years ago worth NOTHING today. But that's the reality.

Anyone want to buy a digital phone hybrid useful for an on-line call in show? I've got one. And NOBODY needs it anymore. Skype has seen to that.

Even GRIP gear is starting to show it's age. When a big LED array weighs 2 pounds and the hero monitor weighs 3, all those C-stands and the boxes of Mafer and Cardillini clamps are WAY too much for the jobs I need done today. I'll keep one or two and sell a dozen off.

Some things won't change. But the ratio of things that WILL to what won't - keeps accelerating.

Keep up (kids of ALL ages) - it's gonna get bumpy out there, IMO.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Herb Sevush
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 22, 2018 at 12:56:49 pm

[Bill Davis] " my experience is in danger of aging out. "

Taking audio recording as an example; experience with specific pieces of equipment is always aging out, experience in understanding mic placement ages out more slowly, experience evaluating the emotional connectedness of a reading never ages out.

[Bill Davis] "And about that cheap Rode mic?
Surprise, surprise, used property it actually turned out to work BETTER than those classic mics. All the off axis rejection, none of the sunk cost, and self noise that was essentially unmeasurable due to modern components - just like what you find in iPhone's recordings."


I'm not questioning your use of a Rode mic for VO, but it sounds like you are also saying the iPhone is just as good as the Rode. If that's the case why are you bothering with the Rode at all?

[Bill Davis] "When a big LED array weighs 2 pounds and the hero monitor weighs 3, all those C-stands and the boxes of Mafer and Cardillini clamps are WAY too much for the jobs I need done today. I'll keep one or two and sell a dozen off.
"


Flags and nets weigh as much as they ever have, Cameras that once ran on floor dolly's are now running on Danna dolly's, I'm sure you'll get a good price on your C-stands and clamps.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 21, 2018 at 7:59:41 pm

[Bill Davis] "As evidence, here are three of my iPhone snaps taken in the past few years. A landscape with lots of subtle tones. A heavily backlit full length portrait of my wife on a vacation, and a classic head shot I grabbed of our son in a restaurant one day. "

You've proved the point. Take the shot of your wife's photo and zoom in 100%. The compression level that is being uses together with the in-camera sharpening make the image quality quite poor. Sure, at a distance it looks great, but it simply doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Of course, the camera you have with you is better than no camera at all, which is why this style of photography is so successful in the marketplace.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 21, 2018 at 8:34:04 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Apr 21, 2018 at 8:43:11 pm

[Oliver Peters] "You've proved the point. Take the shot of your wife's photo and zoom in 100%. The compression level that is being uses together with the in-camera sharpening make the image quality quite poor. Sure, at a distance it looks great, but it simply doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Of course, the camera you have with you is better than no camera at all, which is why this style of photography is so successful in the marketplace."

Not sure the point. It's a 30 cent lens according to Herb. Seems to me it's a pretty damn good use of 30 cents!

Outside of a NCIS situation where somebody thinks they're going to zoom and enhance to read a page on a book on the table for clues to a murderer - this level of detail is so far beyond anything I've been able to carry around in my pocket - as to be scary.

And this was (iirc) on an iPhone 6plus. I'd be nice if this was a 4K still directly from my iPhone X sensor! I've watched some of the iPhone spots where Apple used that same sensor as source material for national Ads running on 4K TVs and you know how much less effective those ads are compared to anything adjacent to them? ZERO.

There's NOTHING functionally wrong with the images. They attract the same eyeballs at the same rate with the same perception of visual draw as ANYTHING else.

If your argument was something like back in the Hi-8 days that over generations - the utility of the images degrades too fast - I'd listen to that. But you can't. The 1s and zeros never change.

The more you guys try to prove that the ONLY way to get eyeballs is to use the same processes we used in the 1980s - the more silly it seems.

I remember on sets in the 1980s the engineers doing the EXACT same "pixel peeping" you are doing in this thread - trying to argue that nothing less than 1" type C was ever going to be "professional" enough to go out on TV.

And we all know how that turned out.

I'm all for capturing the best images we all can. But NOT at the expense of understanding that the images we can acquire in our daily lives now - without out ANY crew or gear considerations attendant to that capture - are where the visual language of the world is headed. And that while bespoke, crafted imagery will always be valuable and, heck, just FUN to create for those of us who love image-making - it's NOT going to drive the same distinction between practitioners that it once did.

That's just inevitable, in my view.

But feel free to keep on the path of service to the top 1% of content distribution systems. Maybe that will turn out to be the correct play.

Time will tell.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 21, 2018 at 10:21:25 pm

[Bill Davis] "But would you like to try that on a 4K still directly from that sensor?"

Your post seems to have been edited along the way. But, yes, sure. However, the original JPEG as recorded in-phone, would suffice, if you stomped on it more to post here.

[Bill Davis] "I remember on sets in the 1980s the engineers doing the EXACT same "pixel peeping" you are doing in this thread - trying to argue that nothing less than 1" type C was ever going to be "professional" enough to go out on TV."

There's really no pixel-peeping here. The differences are obvious at 1:1 (100% image size) without any additional zooming in required.

[Bill Davis] "They attract the same eyeballs at the same rate with the same perception of visual draw as ANYTHING else"

Attracting eyeballs isn't the end-all, be-all of the story. But you can attract eyeballs in many different ways. Your argument seems to be that a smart phone camera is the equal in every way to products much more expensive , but also better designed and engineering and with better glass. That's the disagreement here.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Bill Davis
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 22, 2018 at 5:21:01 am

Yep, I thought of a better example to express my argument, moments after I posted the original. It happens.

My overall point is still that Herb argued that the iPhone has a 30 cent "piece of crap" lens. And I showed a simple example of what the 20 cent version from a couple years ago was actually capable of.

I contend that the image I posted taken through that 20 cent lens did NOT represent a THOUSAND times less quality than what you can achieve with a $200 "nifty fifty" - let alone a piece of $2500 prime glass.

And sorry, but if you have to go to 200% on a 2493x3528 raster to point out major image anomalies, the game is kinda already over.

I understand all the reasons a serious lens can be a smart investment. But for how long? And in what form? We've seen video cameras move from HD to 2k to 4k and now to 8k over just a few years. And dedicated still cameras have pretty much followed the same path. Cooke and Canon and Angenieux are surely still safe for a while. But there's a lot of industrial weight tipping towards technologies like Micro4/3s these days. We'll see where that goes.

You should really keep your eye out for the Michael Cioni piece from Faster Together. He made a very powerful argument for where this stuff is going. Using history and math.

It's worth looking for.

Be interesting to see whether his predictions will prove valid over the next few years.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 22, 2018 at 10:14:03 am
Last Edited By Robin S. Kurz on Apr 22, 2018 at 10:27:35 am

[Bill Davis] "Be interesting to see whether his predictions will prove valid over the next few years."

Have always very much liked what Cioni has brought to the table. Will most definitely be looking out for that. He's a smart guy. The thought of hearing him made me think of this…







… and I'd imagine that it's something along the same lines. Where the overall topic could easily be an analogy for this one. Extremely worthwhile watch imho, either way.

Clearly a very painful and scary reality for the die-hard "ICE drivers" here. 😏

- RK

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Oliver Peters
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 22, 2018 at 12:20:44 pm

[Bill Davis] "And sorry, but if you have to go to 200% on a 2493x3528 raster to point out major image anomalies, the game is kinda already over. "

You misread. I said 1:1 (100%). ACTUAL size.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Steve Connor
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 22, 2018 at 1:12:09 pm

Whilst shooting on an iPhone is definitely usable, I don't see many of the successful new "kids" shooting on them, they seem to use the cheaper DSLRs instead. That's where real changes are happening, we use an A6300 as a "B" cam to our FS7 and the difference between the two is minimal to say the least and most of them don't cost a great deal more than an iPhone X!

"Traditional NLEs have timelines. FCPX has storylines" W.Soyka


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Scott Thomas
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 25, 2018 at 5:09:22 am

In other news, Super 8mm is still out there...

https://www.kodak.com/us/en/consumer/products/super8/super8-camera/default....


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 22, 2018 at 10:26:12 am
Last Edited By Robin S. Kurz on Apr 22, 2018 at 10:28:50 am

[Oliver Peters] "Take the shot of your wife's photo and zoom in 100%. The compression level that is being uses together with the in-camera sharpening make the image quality quite poor."

Wow. That's just… depressing.



[Oliver Peters] "Sure, at a distance it looks great"

Pfff… but who cares about content, right?

Yeah, we get it.

If DaVinci and Picasso had just not used such shit paint but TODAY'S superior hi-rez paints, mixed to perfection… they could've actually made some quality work and something of themselves!

That's the level of argument we've reduced ourselves and the craft to. We're that scared.

- RK

____________________________________________________
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Herb Sevush
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 22, 2018 at 1:13:56 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "If DaVinci and Picasso had just not used such shit paint but TODAY'S superior hi-rez paints, mixed to perfection"

What on earth makes you think DaVinci and Picasso used anything but the finest, most expensive materials known to man when they created their works. Do you think Picasso was running around with crayons ?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Steve Connor
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 22, 2018 at 1:21:17 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Do you think Picasso was running around with crayons ?
"


Surely you've heard of Picasso's "Crayola" period?

Did you know the COW has an "ignore" feature?


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Herb Sevush
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 24, 2018 at 11:26:36 am

[Steve Connor] "Did you know the COW has an "ignore" feature?"

Where?

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
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nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Tero Ahlfors
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 24, 2018 at 12:08:58 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Where?"

Click on the name or portrait and then there's the ignore button under the portrait on the user page.


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 24, 2018 at 2:17:28 pm

No need to remind him. Already beat him to it long ago. 😏


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 22, 2018 at 3:22:26 pm
Last Edited By Robin S. Kurz on Apr 23, 2018 at 11:14:47 am

[Herb Sevush] "What on earth…"

😂 Super bonus points for not getting it the least. Congrats. 👍🏼


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 22, 2018 at 3:35:05 pm
Last Edited By Robin S. Kurz on Apr 22, 2018 at 3:36:32 pm



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Oliver Peters
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 22, 2018 at 5:42:18 pm
Last Edited By Oliver Peters on Apr 22, 2018 at 7:35:49 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "If DaVinci and Picasso had just not used such shit paint but TODAY'S superior hi-rez paints, mixed to perfection… they could've actually made some quality work and something of themselves!"

Nice try, but no cigar. Your analogy fails on at least 3 points. (Although you could explain what "high-resolution" paint is, since actual paint - oil, latex, etc. as opposed to printing - doesn't have a resolution, like dpi.)

1. While paint development might have been on a linear path, that's not true of image capture. We have, in fact, had better tools before digital in the photochemical process of film. Digital capture is just now getting to a point where it rivals (some might say is better than) film negative. Then add top-end optical glass, which is still vastly superior to anything plastic. Where digital image capture is getting better (or at least equal to) than what preceded it, is at the highest end of the business, not the mass market. Panavision, RED, Arri, Sony, Panasonic.

2. Yes, content is important, but if the delivery and quality are so poor that it takes you out of the experience, then content takes a back seat and the message is lost.

3. The tools used are primarily important to the artist and less so to the audience. If you use a tool that you believe is better, then regardless of whether or not it is, your work will benefit accordingly, because of your own headspace at the artist. This applies to NLEs just as much as it does to cameras. Why does Fincher stabilize nearly everything, while other top directors are perfectly fine with the actual camera move? Does it matter to the audience or is it just the director? Or is there really a subliminal effect that is perceived invisibly by the audience, after all? I think that applies equally to questions of color science, compression, and so much more.

The choice of tools is critical, which is why some directors still shoot on film. It's why Spike Jonze shot his HomePod commercials with an Alexa and did practical effects, instead of an iPhone and CGI. It's why most leading guitarists still use top analog gear and not their digital counterparts.

Based on the iPhone premise - if an iPhone 6S is really equal to an Alexa or 35mm film, then one has to wonder why companies like Apple try to improve the iPhone camera system to even more closely approximate what has been available in actual cameras for years, like shallow depth-of-field.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Tom Sefton
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 23, 2018 at 7:52:33 am

I think the analogy works ok. But sketches that Picasso did on a napkin with a pencil are worth less than his canvas works. They are still art, just not...as fulfilling.

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Robin S. Kurz
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 23, 2018 at 10:09:04 am
Last Edited By Robin S. Kurz on Apr 23, 2018 at 11:20:57 am

[Oliver Peters] "(Although you could explain what "high-resolution" paint is, since actual paint - oil, latex, etc. as opposed to printing - doesn't have a resolution, like dpi.)"

🤦🏼‍♂️

Yeah, Oliver, I of course meant it LITERALLY. Everyone knows that's what a metaphor/analogy is. Bonus points for you also. 👍🏼


[Oliver Peters] "Yes, content is important, but if the delivery and quality are so poor that it takes you out of the experience, then content takes a back seat and the message is lost."

So you've seen what I shot in context and aren't just throwing a blind, presumptuous blanket of unfounded imputations? And you've of course seen e.g. "Unsane" to be the judge of "messages lost"? Of course.


[Oliver Peters] "If you use a tool that you believe is better, then regardless of whether or not it is, your work will benefit accordingly, because of your own headspace at the artist."

First it's (essentially) "No way, they suck!", then it's "your work will benefit accordingly"… practically in the same sentence. Got it.



[Oliver Peters] "if an iPhone 6S is really equal to an Alexa or 35mm film"

Feel free to actually quote exactly where anyone made that "BS!!1!" claim.

- RK

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Oliver Peters
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 23, 2018 at 12:16:33 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "So you've seen what I shot in context and aren't just throwing a blind, presumptuous blanket of unfounded imputations? "

Not every comment is about you. I wasn't referring to anything you have shot.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 23, 2018 at 1:59:45 pm
Last Edited By Robin S. Kurz on Apr 23, 2018 at 2:01:01 pm

[Oliver Peters] "Not every comment is about you."

Oh, right. Responding directly to me i.e. to something I wrote, quote and all, has nothing to do with me. How totally presumptuous. Got it. Silly me. My bad!

Too bad that that still doesn't answer a single question either. But I guess that's e.g. a "no" on seeing "Unsane". Ok. Hm.

Yeah, Soderbergh has a "good enough" addendum on his production company logo now, too, btw. Since that was clearly HIS whole point as well.

Nothing like a fresh bag of crispy warm logical fallacies in the morning! 😄

- RK


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greg janza
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 23, 2018 at 7:09:22 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "Yeah, Soderbergh has a "good enough" addendum on his production company logo now, too, btw. Since that was clearly HIS whole point as well."

I think that's a big part of this discussion. Does the use of this type of disruptive technology actually help the end product? Will an audience become equally engaged in the storytelling with this imagery as opposed to more established formats? And we're only referring to the visuals since the sound design of these projects is just as elaborate as any traditionally shot project.

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Bill Davis
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 24, 2018 at 12:19:57 am

[greg janza] "Does the use of this type of disruptive technology actually help the end product? Will an audience become equally engaged in the storytelling with this imagery as opposed to more established formats?"

It's an excellent question. And one we can't answer - unless and until someone is out there USING the new techniques in real-world tests. Which is where Soderbergh appears headed.

I can iterate and improve ONLY after I create and distribute.

That's the biggest change I've seen over the past 20 years.

I used to try to be as perfect as possible. And sometimes, I still do. But just as often, I find myself saying "just put it out - - listen to the critique - and make sure to improve for next time."

That new normal is working in software. It's working in life. - basically, It's working.

FWIW.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Tony West
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 22, 2018 at 1:10:12 pm

The last commercial shoot I did the client said to me "You're just setting all that stuff up for show, you know you are just going to shoot it with your iPhone." It was a funny joke and everyone laughed. He was joking though. If I had actually broke out with my iPhone no one would have been laughing at all. They would have said, "What am I paying for, I have one of those?

Even if the iPhone lens looked as good as my Zeiss Prime 50mm (It doesn't) there are so many other factors to shooting.

It's fun to talk about it on a forum like this but on real client jobs it's irrelevant because they don't want to see you using it when they are paying significant money.

If you go in for free they might not complain, but I'm not working for free, so I'm not brining it (except to return text about my next jobs : ))



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Steve Connor
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 22, 2018 at 1:14:20 pm

[Tony West] "If you go in for free they might not complain, but I'm not working for free, so I'm not brining it (except to return text about my next jobs : )) "

Besides if we all started using iPhones, Peli would go out of business!

"Traditional NLEs have timelines. FCPX has storylines" W.Soyka


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 22, 2018 at 1:30:34 pm

[Steve Connor] "Besides if we all started using iPhones, Peli would go out of business!"

Of course, an iPhone shoot may or may not require less gear. Smaller, yes. Less? Hmm...







I would argue that BMD is actually serving this filmmaking market much better with the 4K Pocket Cinema Camera. As is Sony with its A7 series cameras.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 22, 2018 at 3:33:17 pm

[Tony West] "It's fun to talk about it on a forum like this but on real client jobs it's irrelevant because they don't want to see you using it when they are paying significant money."

Just as I finished shooting a job (3rd) on an iPhone X in 4K with an DJI Osmo 2. The client was ecstatic over the results. Go figure.

I'm not talking theory. To date not single person has complained that anything shot with it anyway looked "cheap" or somehow sub-par. Quite the exact opposite. Either the client trusts your judgment (and the results prove it) or they don't.

- RK

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Michael Hancock
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 22, 2018 at 10:00:50 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "Just as I finished shooting a job (3rd) on an iPhone X in 4K with an DJI Osmo 2. The client was ecstatic over the results. Go figure."

Why did you decide to go with the iPhone X as the camera, and what other cameras were being considered for this shoot? And what type of project was it? Corporate video, commercial, preroll for web, documentary/film?

----------------
Michael Hancock
Editor


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Tony West
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 22, 2018 at 11:41:42 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "Either the client trusts your judgment (and the results prove it) or they don't.
"


I don't know about that Robin. CBS, NBC, ESPN, these Networks all have camera's that they consider "acceptable" when they hire for a job. They wouldn't make an exception for you either. With those clients it would be out of my hands and yours also.

Look, it's working for you go with it. Believe me, if I could get away with shooting with my phone on most jobs I would do it in a heartbeat. I would love to save the cash.

Was the iPhone your primary camera on the job and what type of footage were you shooting with it? Who was the client?

Some of the things I like about my camera are, up to 10 picture profiles stored, SDI out, HDMI out, controls like audio adjustments on the side of the camera, XLR in, four options of peaking in the viewfinder, pre-set A and B WB on the side of the camera. The peaking really comes in handy on a bright day game.


[Robin S. Kurz] "not single person has complained that anything shot with it anyway looked "cheap" or somehow sub-par."

I'm sure it doesn't look cheap or sub-par, but most of the shots I see with the iPhone don't have that shallow depth that many want.

Even in the spot that Olive posted (Looks nice btw) Everything in the shot tends to look sharp. (like a small sensor)



The shirts in the back look as sharp as him.



I have not shot with the X, how easy is it to lock on the subject and really control that tight focus? That's the kind of thing they want. I want it also.



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Bill Davis
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 23, 2018 at 8:00:17 am

[Tony West] "I'm sure it doesn't look cheap or sub-par, but most of the shots I see with the iPhone don't have that shallow depth that many want."

Careful here.

In portrait mode, the fake shallow depth of field that the dual lens iPhones can pull off can be pretty darn convincing.

Here’s a shot I took of Sam Mestman at the Creative Summit from 2016 right after the capability was introduced with the effect on and off.






And one of a series of depth effect portraits I took at ComiCon 6 months later.



How long before this hits video and it’s even harder to tell if it’s a lens or an algorithm?

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Steve Connor
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 23, 2018 at 10:33:11 am

[Bill Davis] "In portrait mode, the fake shallow depth of field that the dual lens iPhones can pull off can be pretty darn convincing.

"


True it's stunning and I use it all the time, but if you look closer then you can see that the edges are still slightly soft around the mask, I think it will be a while before we get this on video in any way that is convincing

Did you know the COW has an "ignore" feature?


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Dominic Deacon
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 23, 2018 at 11:22:06 am

I don't want to be that guy but you're not suggesting that those shots pass as being from a professional DSLR are you? The one with the girl with the pink hair doesn't appear to be in focus anywhere. The one with the guy has some small areas of focus but the fall off is unpleasant to look at. The earlier photos you showed look like real nice camera phone shots (sidebar: why are we limiting this to iphones when they are not even best in class?) but in no way do they look like they were taken with a professional dslr. There's nothing wrong with that look but everyone with a camera phone knows they can take the same shot. They won't have the same confidence they can replicate the shot when they see a beautiful DSLR image.

Sure, an incredibly skilled pro, in exactly the right conditions, can pull off something that looks pro with a camera phone but surely it's just easier to get a professional camera that will hit the look you're after with a lot less skill and a lot less effort?

This is a strange argument. Ultimately if you can get away with using a phone, great! But I'm finding it hard to get my head around the idea that we're arguing that camera phones hold up to pro gear. It's hard to even justify their use as a "democratisation of the medium" thing when you can get amazing Black Magic gear for basically nothing these days.


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 23, 2018 at 11:41:46 am
Last Edited By Robin S. Kurz on Apr 23, 2018 at 12:05:47 pm

[Bill Davis] "How long before this hits video and it’s even harder to tell if it’s a lens or an algorithm?"

How don't you already have that without any algorithm? These are two random frames from a couple of my iPhone videos (merely scaled by 50%, otherwise untouched and even taken with the built-in camera app for a change, so "sloppy" compared to what is possible otherwise):





… with a nice smooth rack focus here and there. Yeah. The client just HATED it. What a moron for not sending me home quickly!

Would the highlights have been less blown out with my URSA MP (or even with simply more than just available light) and had EVEN LESS DOF (that I don't even want)? Sure. As well as making getting the same pictures exponentially more of a PITA. So I guess given that, these images are of course crap and totally unacceptable for a "true pro!", right? … 😂😂

That elevated mare of certain people is really starting to get very old and hungry.

Whatever. They can continue believing what they want, ignoring objective facts. No skin off my back nor money out of my pocket. Quite the opposite. 😊

- RK

____________________________________________________
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Steve Connor
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 23, 2018 at 12:32:15 pm
Last Edited By Steve Connor on Apr 23, 2018 at 12:34:20 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "How don't you already have that without any algorithm? These are two random frames from a couple of my iPhone videos (merely scaled by 50%, otherwise untouched and even taken with the built-in camera app for a change, so "sloppy" compared to what is possible otherwise):"

Yes they look very much like iPhone shots

[Robin S. Kurz] "The client just HATED it. What a moron for not sending me home quickly!"

Although he might have loved a little bit more if you'd shot it with your Ursa

[Robin S. Kurz] "Would the highlights have been less blown out with my URSA MP (or even with simply more than just available light) and had EVEN LESS DOF (that I don't even want)? Sure. As well as making getting the same pictures exponentially more of a PITA. So I guess given that, these images are of course crap and totally unacceptable for a "true pro!", right? … 😂😂
"


You seem to be arguing that "good enough" and "easy" is the way forward?



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greg janza
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 23, 2018 at 1:45:37 pm

[Steve Connor] "You seem to be arguing that "good enough" and "easy" is the way forward?"

I think you've hit on the main problem with this approach. Using your iphone to shoot professional video sounds novel and disruptive but does this approach raise the bar on quality or result in a superior product delivered to your client? Most of the argument that has been laid out here is that a client can't tell the difference so therefore it's ok.

Are you offering your clients discounts when pricing out your day rate charge?

If I was a client and you told me that instead of using a Red Raven or a Sony FS7 camera to capture the imagery for a project that instead you planned on using your consumer grade iphone I would want/demand a sizable discount. In addition, I think it might lead to a client questioning your overall professionalism.

"Good enough" is not the tag line that I would want attached to my company name.

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Robin S. Kurz
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 23, 2018 at 11:49:12 am
Last Edited By Robin S. Kurz on Apr 23, 2018 at 11:54:21 am

[Tony West] "CBS, NBC, ESPN, these Networks all have camera's that they consider "acceptable" when they hire for a job."

Good for them. I just don't see why that should concern me or any of the 99+% of editors (I'm not a cameraman, but them, too) for whom it's just as unlikely they'll ever had anything to do with them. If you do, then sure.



[Tony West] "Believe me, if I could get away with shooting with my phone on most jobs I would do it in a heartbeat. I would love to save the cash."

Guess what? The clients love it, too, and still getting exactly what they're looking for. Go figure. 😏


[Tony West] "Was the iPhone your primary camera on the job and what type of footage were you shooting with it?"

I'm talking various projects across the board of genres. In one of them the iPhone was in fact the primary, yes. But then, again, I don't see how that's really relevant, since the client didn't care (or even know) either way and had absolutely no complaints as far as the image etc. was concerned. What else should I be caring about? Praise and back-patting from my super-pro peers because I ignorantly snubbed my nose at the notion? 😄


[Tony West] "Some of the things I like about my camera are, up to 10 picture profiles stored, SDI out, HDMI out, controls like audio adjustments on the side of the camera, XLR in, four options of peaking in the viewfinder, pre-set A and B WB on the side of the camera. "

Near none of which I personally ever need on a shoot. But if and when I do, I just go with the URSA MP. But mostly because I get ProRes direct off the camera, making my life in post that little bit easier and for the one or other FX plate and the likes.

But without it I still have: Variable Speed Pull Focus, Variable Speed Targeted Zoom, Sync Audio Frame Rate Presets for 24,25, 30, 48, 50 and 60fps, High Speed Frame Rates of anywhere from 60 to 240 fps, 4K, 3K, 2K, 1080, 720 HD or 540 SD, Various Aspect Ratios (2.59:1, 2.35:1, 2.20:1 etc. etc. etc.), can use 3rd Party 35mm adapters, a Moondog Labs Anamorphic Adapter if needed, have Uncompressed or Compressed audio (AIFF, Linear PCM or AAC), Audio metering, Audio Gain Control, Headphone monitoring, Stereo recording support, 100mbps at 4K or 50mbps at 1080p… never mind manual Temperature, Tint, ISO, Shutter Speed, Exposure, BiasFocus etc. etc. etc.

And all of that without a flight case and ZERO assembly required. With me even when I don't even NEED a camera (or think so beforehand and am proven wrong by some unexpected situation).

Not enough? Unprofessional? Oh well! Surprising how little of a rodent's backend I could give. 😉



[Tony West] "but most of the shots I see with the iPhone don't have that shallow depth that many want."

Never ONCE in 20+years of production has a client come to me and said "Make me a film… and be sure to have REALLY SHALLOW DOF!". And if that were in fact a requirement (even from ME, not them) then, again, I'd go with the URSA MP and my primes (but also not shoot myself). Done. But if I know what I'm doing I can get wonderfully and appropriate low DOF with an iPhone as well (as seen in my other post)!

It's called "horses for courses". I at least have the trust and confidence of my clients that I'll tell the best possible story for them, even if I decided to use an old DV cam. Clearly others don't and therefore need to hide behind specs and ports and pixels (no, not you). Bummers.

- RK

____________________________________________________
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Tony West
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 24, 2018 at 4:28:44 am

[Robin S. Kurz] "be sure to have REALLY SHALLOW DOF!". And if that were in fact a requirement (even from ME, not them) then, again, I'd go with the URSA MP and my primes"


I see. You go to your URSA and primes when you want to go to the next level of quality that your phone can't handle as well.

I just want to be at my best level of quality all the time on jobs. I've shot cool stuff with my phone also, but I know I can do better with my primes and I want to offer my best to the client.


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 24, 2018 at 11:13:47 am

[Tony West] "I see. You go to your URSA and primes when you want to go to the next level of quality that your phone can't handle as well."

Wait… so you're actually equating things such as Bokeh and/or DOF with quality, with complete disregard for content?! Wow. Because no, that's certainly not what I was saying, sorry.

It's never been about a blanket better/worse for anyone, even though that's clearly what some are trying very hard to spin it to be, to have yet another chance to show how much their superior demands separate them from the riffraff. It's about an objective when, if and why… and why not. But obviously some feel their "pro-ness" horribly threatened by the mere notion that someone could actually be doing a perfectly good if not great job and making more money than them with such "paltry" tools (not just cameras of course).

But yeah, sorry… they are.

So I'll also just take that as a "yes" as far as the "Not enough? Unprofessional?" is concerned.

I'm sure that everyone and Bentley, too, were just horrified and furious over the amateurish low-bokeh films they've gotten and wish they had sent the filmmakers home quickly!







But thank you. I'd say you've helped summarize this thread perfectly.

- RK

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Tony West
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 24, 2018 at 4:20:27 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] " But obviously some feel their "pro-ness" horribly threatened by the mere notion that someone could actually be doing a perfectly good if not great job and making more money than them with such "paltry" tools (not just cameras of course). "

I don't doubt you are doing a great job with your phone Robin. I don't doubt that people can sneak phone video passed clients without them knowing it. I don't know if you make more money than me or not, I don't really know you. I wouldn't bet mad if you made more, I've accomplshised everything I wanted to in this field.

I was just curious how you were pulling it off on certain types of jobs. The thing is, I think this forum almost needs to be broken down to different job categories. I'm surprised when I read things on here just how different needs are a certain jobs. It's hard to believe sometimes. I'd rather compare notes with people who are doing the same jobs I'm doing.

When I first posted, my point was that I don't believe clients want to pay the same rate for a phone as they do for a higher quality camera if they saw you using it on the job.

Do you say to the owner of the company on the set that's writing the check "Hey, this is gonna look almost as good as a more expensive camera. Trust me. Btw, I expect the same rate"

I didn't believe that wold play well, and I still don't.


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greg janza
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 24, 2018 at 5:56:24 pm

[Tony West] "I think this forum almost needs to be broken down to different job categories. I'm surprised when I read things on here just how different needs are a certain jobs. It's hard to believe sometimes. I'd rather compare notes with people who are doing the same jobs I'm doing."

I think that's a great idea and I have the same reaction to some of the posts here.

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Bill Davis
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 24, 2018 at 7:25:36 pm

[greg janza] "I think that's a great idea and I have the same reaction to some of the posts here.
"


Yeah, but the REASON this specific forum has the traffic that it does, arose from the conflict in the early days of FCP X that was hashed out here.

Argument over concepts is the SOUL of this forum.

If this forum was simply users agreeing that the way professionals have traditionally approached their equipment and production processes is fine and should just keep on keeping on - the whole forum would be just another website among many.

We tend to remain relevant BECAUSE we challenge the accepted way of doing things.

That's the fun.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Neil Goodman
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 25, 2018 at 3:27:48 am

[greg janza] "I think that's a great idea and I have the same reaction to some of the posts here.
"


I don't know, I like reading from all different scopes of post and in this thread, lots of pre pro. Im in such a narrow lane of post that I learn a lot from you guys and your specific disciplines...even sometimes Robin. I feel like have it relatively easy compared to you guys except maybe my hours and deadlines and if there were a trailer/promo section I feel like Id be the only one it, lol .


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Andrew Kimery
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 25, 2018 at 5:27:31 pm

Something I find interesting is how 'good enough' gets tossed around as negative term yet everyone lands on good enough eventually because projects have finite budgets and deadlines. If one has a client that needs a corporate training video created is one going to pitch them on getting Christopher Nolan to direct it, Rodger Deakons to shoot it in 70mm IMAX, Walter Murch to cut, and Morgan Freeman to narrate it because anything less would be settling for 'good enough'? 😉

Everything from sync-sound 35mm film to desktop publishing to the DV revolution is a product of 'good enough' yet all of those are seen as watershed moments in our industry, not poo-pooed for not offering the best solutions money could buy.

Different projects have different needs so while shooting on an iPhone or GoPro might work in one situation it might not work in another. Sure Soderbergh shot "Unsane" on an iPhone. He also shot "Full Frontal" on MiniDV. He does it to experiment with different looks, different tech, and different ways of working, not because he's thinks they are replacements for 35mm film or an Arri Alexa. It's an artistic, stylistic choice that's not rooted in objective quality.


[Neil Goodman] "I don't know, I like reading from all different scopes of post and in this thread, lots of pre pro. Im in such a narrow lane of post that I learn a lot from you guys and your specific disciplines..."

I agree. I like being exposed to the variety of workflows, projects, and editorial choices that are here. If someone is looking for advice about a specific niche/workflow they can just start a thread on it.


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Herb Sevush
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 25, 2018 at 5:37:45 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Something I find interesting is how 'good enough' gets tossed around as negative term yet everyone lands on good enough eventually because projects have finite budgets and deadlines."

Good enough is for when you don't have any other options - due to money, size, availability. If you can afford better options, then "good enough" ain't good enough.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Scott Witthaus
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 25, 2018 at 5:47:15 pm

[Herb Sevush] "If you can afford better options, then "good enough" ain't good enough."

Maybe it should be said "as good as can be done based on client, budget and deadline".

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Visual Storyteller
https://vimeo.com/channels/1322525
Managing Partner, Low Country Creative LLC
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Bill Davis
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 25, 2018 at 6:52:21 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Good enough is for when you don't have any other options - due to money, size, availability. If you can afford better options, then "good enough" ain't good enough."

But the most common scarcity in this is the one you conveniently left out... time.

Good enough hedges THAT better than anything else.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 25, 2018 at 7:19:07 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Good enough is for when you don't have any other options - due to money, size, availability. If you can afford better options, then "good enough" ain't good enough."

Exactly. Because budgets are finite, schedules don't always mesh, and deadlines are real everyone arrives at 'good enough' sooner or later. Maybe 'good enough' is an iPhone, maybe it's an Alexa, maybe it's 35mm. Why doesn't every project shoot on 70mm IMAX? Because it's overkill for 99.9% of the projects out there which means something 'inferior' to 70mm IMAX is, wait for it, good enough. 😉

I know this is mostly a semantic argument, but I'm just always amused when someone says, 'We only offer the best to our clients' when what they really mean is 'We only offer the best to our clients... based on limitations such as budget, talent/equipment availability, and delivery deadlines.'


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Dominic Deacon
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 25, 2018 at 9:41:03 pm
Last Edited By Dominic Deacon on Apr 25, 2018 at 9:53:27 pm

Just to bring it back from the theoretical to the practical for a moment, shouldn't you be offering the client the best possible product you can given time/budget etc? If, as a pro, the best you can offer is an iphone (not even a Google Pixel for the best image on a cmaera phone) are you trying hard enough?


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Tony West
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 26, 2018 at 12:09:27 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "Why doesn't every project shoot on 70mm IMAX? Because it's overkill for 99.9% "

If the client is paying you to shoot that way then you do it.

Many clients in broadcast tell YOU what they want it shot with. Other clients are trusting that you will do what's best for them. If they are a small business and you bring in something that's too much for their needs and charge them for it you are taking advantage of them.

"good enough" Can become a moral question sometimes.


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Tom Sefton
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 26, 2018 at 1:02:52 pm

I can't get away from the thought that if its about light and quick and easy, on a limited budget, and the delivery is for web, wouldn't you use a blackmagic pocket camera and have 1080p ProRes at 10bit quality?

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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Scott Witthaus
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 26, 2018 at 1:17:33 pm

[Tom Sefton] "wouldn't you use a blackmagic pocket camera and have 1080p ProRes at 10bit quality?"

If I had one, I probably would.

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Visual Storyteller
https://vimeo.com/channels/1322525
Managing Partner, Low Country Creative LLC
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Shawn Miller
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 26, 2018 at 6:08:08 pm

[Tom Sefton] "I can't get away from the thought that if its about light and quick and easy, on a limited budget, and the delivery is for web, wouldn't you use a blackmagic pocket camera and have 1080p ProRes at 10bit quality?"

A lot of people prefer 8 bit 4:2:0 @ 4k in .mp4 over most anything shot in 1080p at 10 or 12 bit. Personally, I like the image from the current Pocket better (than 4k MPEG 4)... but I suspect I'm in the minority. I imagine the Pocket 4k will be really popular, but probably because it captures in 4k, more than its (presumably) great 1080p image.

Shawn



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Herb Sevush
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 25, 2018 at 7:20:42 pm

[Bill Davis] "But the most common scarcity in this is the one you conveniently left out... time."

Time is an aspect of "availability." A better option isn't available because you've run out of time to get it; for a reporter with a breaking story the phone in your hand is better than the camera in your desk.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Bill Davis
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 25, 2018 at 7:41:02 pm

[Herb Sevush] "Time is an aspect of "availability." "

I'd argue you have that backwards.

Availability is an aspect of time.

Time is the FIXED constant. We all have the exact same supply and are losing it at the exact same pace.

Availability is a variable you have at least SOME control over.

FWIW.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Herb Sevush
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 25, 2018 at 9:31:32 pm

[Bill Davis] "I'd argue you have that backwards.

Availability is an aspect of time."


Don't get all metaphysical on me Bill, I'm just arguing for using the best gear you can get your hands on.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Charlie Austin
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 26, 2018 at 1:29:06 am

[Neil Goodman] "if there were a trailer/promo section I feel like Id be the only one it, lol ."

I'd be there with ya Neil. ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------

~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~"It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools."~
~I still need to play Track Tetris sometimes. An old game that you can never win~
~"The function you just attempted is not yet implemented"~


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Steve Connor
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 24, 2018 at 8:30:34 pm

[Tony West] "I just want to be at my best level of quality all the time on jobs. I've shot cool stuff with my phone also, but I know I can do better with my primes and I want to offer my best to the client."

and this is what will give you an advantage over other people. I recognise the utility of using in iPhone in certain circumstances, but in a lot of those circumstances it's just as easy to use a small DSLR instead and get better quality results with more flexibility.

There is no scenario where I would travel to a job with just an iPhone


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Scott Witthaus
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 23, 2018 at 12:48:23 pm

[Tony West] "I could get away with shooting with my phone on most jobs I would do it in a heartbeat. "

Once again, like software, it's horses for courses. I recently had to shoot some quick footage up in Minneapolis with me being the only one up there. I did not want to lug around a package of gear so I went with my iPhone 7 at its' version of 4k, AE/focus lock provided in the phone, and an Ikan handheld stabilizer. It looks great. AirDrop to MBP, edit in X and on the way to client. Client loved it.

That said, when I was back home and had another gig to shoot, I used a Canon C100 because I had the time, space and ancillary gear to go along with it. It looked great too.

I don't think this is an "either or" scenario rather the choice of the proper tool for the proper scenario.

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Visual Storyteller
https://vimeo.com/channels/1322525
Managing Partner, Low Country Creative LLC
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Bill Davis
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 24, 2018 at 12:12:20 am

[Scott Witthaus] "I don't think this is an "either or" scenario rather the choice of the proper tool for the proper scenario."

It's not - as much as some others here would like to spin it that way.

The problem for the "you can't get there with an iPhone crew" in this thread, is NOT that there is no DIFFERENCE between the DSLR shot and any iPhone shot...

It's the AMOUNT of difference. And the relevance of the difference. (Which is what is actually being shaved smaller and smaller and smaller every month.)

I didn't carefully cherry pick and curate my shots to post here for exactly that reason - they were just what was in my iPhoto library - warts and all.

And that's the point, really. If my regular library is filling up with more very useful shots - even if they aren't ideal - I have an increasingly better chance of having illustrative content that serves my purposes in ALL my discussions.

Folks here will definitely pixel peep - as we've clearly seen. But if I'd used ANY of those shots as illustrations adjacent to a content post about the relevant topics, they'd do their job. And that's attracting the eyeballs needed to engage the reader - exactly like they engaged everyone here.

And that's the overall game we're ALL playing now.

Made you look. Made you read. Made you consider.

The only game left is engagement.

Everything else is going to be noise, moving forward.

My 2 cents, anyway.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Tony West
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 24, 2018 at 4:58:46 am

[Scott Witthaus] " I did not want to lug around a package of gear so I went with my iPhone 7 "

I hear you Scott. It's easier. You aren't making the argument that your phone looks "better" than your C100 it's just that it looks pretty good and you can get away with it and not carry as much stuff.


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Scott Witthaus
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 24, 2018 at 6:22:04 pm

[Tony West] "You aren't making the argument that your phone looks "better" than your C100 it's just that it looks pretty good and you can get away with it and not carry as much stuff."

It looks damn good actually, but you are right. This video was for online marketing and the iPhone 4k is perfectly ok for that. Basically a Vimeo link on emails to select persons. Hell, the C100 might have been overkill! But horses for courses.

Sometimes I get the feeling that people in our business try to make things as complex and hard as they can for no apparent gain or reason...mho

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Visual Storyteller
https://vimeo.com/channels/1322525
Managing Partner, Low Country Creative LLC
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Bill Davis
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 24, 2018 at 7:39:02 pm

[Scott Witthaus] "Sometimes I get the feeling that people in our business try to make things as complex and hard as they can for no apparent gain or reason...mho"

That's a great point, Scott.

And a corollary maybe is that once a practitioner settles on a workflow that satisfies them - there's a powerful pull to depend on that workflow for everything they do.

It's "I'm an AVID editor - so I see production in AVID terms." Or, "I'm an FCP X editor - so I see problems in terms that X best solves them." That's all perfectly natural.

Hopping around between production processes puts extra stress on the practitioner, whether that's learning the keystroke muscle memory for two or more NLEs - or becoming as comfortable shooting a six ounce iPhone X for someone conditioned to wielding a 15 lb shoulder mount broadcast camera.

It's extra skills development, either way. And you have to be able to see the benefits in order to want to spend the time learning how to do any of it well.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 22, 2018 at 10:31:11 am
Last Edited By Robin S. Kurz on Apr 22, 2018 at 11:25:38 am

[Herb Sevush] "But would you be just as happy to use the iphones's built in mic for recording?"

Aside from being a complete straw-grasping non sequitur? Yeah, I've used it MANY times and it's been brilliant. So? Anyone that thinks that's nuts or laughable, clearly has never actually used it themselves. Or they are just another pompous, self-proclaiming "pro" who is reduced to having to judge the quality of their work by the price tag on a box and random tech-specs. As a cheap distraction from a lack of actual content and ability. Amazingly sad actually.


[Herb Sevush] "With video you are stuck with the built in, cheap, POS lens of the iphone, which is why there is no equivalence between recording audio and video on a smartphone."

Sure. Whatever you say.

- RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!
Youtube | Facebook


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Herb Sevush
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 22, 2018 at 1:09:38 pm

[Robin S. Kurz] "Aside from being a complete straw-grasping non sequitur?"

It's only a non-sequitur to those that can't see the connection.

[Robin S. Kurz] "Yeah, I've used it MANY times and it's been brilliant. So? Anyone that thinks that's nuts or laughable, clearly has never actually used it themselves"

I don't know if it's more nuts or laughable but I do no that any sound recordist showing up on a shoot with only his phone in his equipment kit would be sent home, quickly.

[Robin S. Kurz] " Or they are just another pompous, self-proclaiming "pro" who is reduced to having to judge the quality of their work by the price tag on a box and random tech-specs. As a cheap distraction from a lack of actual content and ability.Amazingly sad actually."

I don't know if you keep with the horror show that is American politics but i must say that those final three words are hilariously Trumpian. Too bad this was not a tweet.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
---------------------------
nothin' attached to nothin'
"Deciding the spine is the process of editing" F. Bieberkopf


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Ricardo Marty
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 19, 2018 at 6:45:27 pm

I dont know. But all I see in that image are tracks.

Ricardo Marty


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Bill Davis
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 19, 2018 at 7:01:12 pm

[Ricardo Marty] "I dont know. But all I see in that image are tracks."

I see the land of the "track-nod."

The video is way up here........but I'm pretty sure it's matching audio is ... down...................here.

Did that for a decade plus.

Seems kinda weird now.

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Neil Sadwelkar
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 20, 2018 at 6:34:36 am

[Scott Witthaus] "And Oliver, didn’t you say that Avid and Discreet failed in their attempt to make the “all in one” system. So why do you think Black Magic can do any better?"

Avid DS, Quantel eQ/iQ, Discreet(Autodesk) Smoke, and Foundry Nuke Studio, examples of 'all-in-one' (AIO) systems but they different from DVR 15 because of price, and hardware independence.
At the price of Avid DS, eQ/iQ, Smoke, Nuke Studio, one has to be hugely committed financially, to the concept. Their ongoing costs were/are high too - maintenance/upgrade taxes.

And, more importantly one has to have a person/s who can effectively use the system and earn revenue on it. And you've got to be able to keep the gal/guy happy. If they quit, your business goes with them.

For a brief period in the 2003-5 timeframe, Shake with Tremor was trying to be this AIO (All-in One) dream system too. That went away before it came.

The way I think DVR 15 may work as an AIO is to be one system, but 4 heads.
One asst editor to set up project import, sync and organise stuff, one editor who edits, one (or more) VFX artists who can do the keying/comping/cleanups in Fusion, and one sound engineer to do the sound sweetening and mix.
All four can take turns working on the same project and same system with no media being sent in and out.

Or, because of the price, one can actually have four separate DVR 15 systems for these four individuals, and they can all work on the same project. Maybe even at the same time. I've not used collaborative project work in Resolve, but if that's usable, then this is even better, the exact same project open in 4 places.
This is huge, and something never possible, (at least economically) with the previous AIO systems.

If there is a time crunch, all 4 systems can become Fusion systems, or all 4 can be grading systems, or sound post systems.

Another thing is that unlike the previous AIO attempts, Resolve is Mac/Win/Linux, so one can (potentially) have the same project open on multiple platforms.

Of course, the same is somewhat possible with Adobe CC as well, but at a much higher cost.

-----------------------------------
Neil Sadwelkar
neilsadwelkar.blogspot.com
twitter: fcpguru
FCP Editor, Edit systems consultant
Mumbai India


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Robin S. Kurz
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 20, 2018 at 4:16:57 pm

[Neil Sadwelkar] "The way I think DVR 15 may work as an AIO is to be one system, but 4 heads.
One asst editor to set up project import, sync and organise stuff, one editor who edits, one (or more) VFX artists who can do the keying/comping/cleanups in Fusion, and one sound engineer to do the sound sweetening and mix.
All four can take turns working on the same project and same system with no media being sent in and out. "


But then I'd venture to say, that you're describing criteria that barely speak to even 1% of potential users. Meaning, not a deciding factor whether to go with Resolve or not for the vast majority. So even if all that is true and possible, I don't see how those aspects in and of themselves could affect the actual, overall marketshare in any significant way in the end, i.e. sway MASSES (of ANY level) to migrate from what they already have or know. The masses will have an entirely different trough of criteria that are relevant to them first and foremost. No?

- RK

____________________________________________________
Deutsch? Hier gibt es ein umfassendes FCP X Training für dich!
Youtube | Facebook


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Ricardo Marty
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 21, 2018 at 6:01:57 pm

Maybe DR15 will open collaborative editing in smaller shops. a place where all bring in their hardware and start working. or connect via internet. Maybe even international collaboration.
This maybe opening a new workflow for independents.

Personally i don't use all DR15 apps but my low end set-up is very capable of running all. so if i need a fusion,fairlight or color specialist he can work on my systems in my studio so i just pay for his knowledge and experience not for his hardware. I've done this before. plus i can continue working on something else while still able to supervise;

Its a revolution

Ricardo Marty


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Neil Goodman
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 22, 2018 at 9:07:32 pm

After reading this thread I'm so glad I don't have to shoot or record anything, nor worry about codecs in the slightest. I'm not sure I could keep up these days. The last thing I shot was on a 16mm in film school.


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Scott Witthaus
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 24, 2018 at 6:40:44 pm

[Neil Sadwelkar] "At the price of Avid DS, eQ/iQ, Smoke, Nuke Studio, one has to be hugely committed financially, to the concept. Their ongoing costs were/are high too - maintenance/upgrade taxes."

I would venture to day that if BMD was trying to introduce Resolve at that time in history, they could not have done a free software either. The money is not made on the software, rather on the hardware you need to put around it.

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Visual Storyteller
https://vimeo.com/channels/1322525
Managing Partner, Low Country Creative LLC
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Oliver Peters
Re: FCPX or R15?
on Apr 24, 2018 at 7:28:34 pm

[Scott Witthaus] "I would venture to day that if BMD was trying to introduce Resolve at that time in history, they could not have done a free software either."

I'm not so sure about that. Free maybe not, but cheap, yes. Assuming, of course, the current status of the company and the lower cost of entry that they have with these tools through their strategic acquisitions. Remember that it was Digital Voodoo's cheap SDI cards (Grant was originally a partner there before BMD) that ushered FCP 1 into the professional market.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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