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Noam Kroll on ProRes RAW.

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Bill Davis
Noam Kroll on ProRes RAW.
on Apr 7, 2018 at 5:22:10 am

Interesting.

http://noamkroll.com/why-apple-prores-raw-is-a-huge-deal-how-it-will-effect...

Creator of XinTwo - http://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.


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Michael Gissing
Re: Noam Kroll on ProRes RAW.
on Apr 7, 2018 at 5:59:57 am

Huge deal is perhaps overstatement. Already many cameras record ProRes and DNx as well as RAW formats. cDNG is already a well established open codec with up to 4:1 compression so this new ProRes format is only slightly more compressed. That's not a huge deal and unless Apple make it an open codec then that slight advantage is not going to pay off. In other words unless cross platform NLE software gets to use this without problems, as more and more post finishing facilities are going to Win & Linux, then using it in the field will be discouraged from the finish facilities and for good reason.

DSLRs with ProResRAW? I think not. Their onboard cards are not up to the rigors of this sort of data rate. There's a reason why non DSLR cameras go for CFAST and SSDs. To get from H264 at data rates under 50Mb/s to ProResRAW around 200Mb/s is not insignificant. If they can handle ProResRAW then they can probably already do cDNG. They don't because real big fast dual card DSLRs are not normal. Chuck in the need to get up to 60p and no, ProResRAW isn't any new big deal in that area. DNG might come up with a 6:1 codec which would be a bigger deal potentially.

The article seems to not be aware that ProRes has in fact been losing ground as a deliverable format but if you stay inside the FCPX bubble you wouldn't notice. More common now are the XAVC codecs for broadcast deliverables. Smaller than ProRes and can be easily made on cross platform software. As long as Apple hog ProRes as a recordable format within their ecosystems the more likely it is that their proprietary format will not be a big deal let alone a huge one. Given the similarities between DNx and ProRes and how DNx codecs exist that match the ProRes family, I wouldn't be surprised to see DNxRAW appear before too long. That would also be big, probably bigger.


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Michael Gissing
Re: Noam Kroll on ProRes RAW.
on Apr 7, 2018 at 6:10:05 am

And just to add to his final statement that ProResRAW will become standard as a deliverable. No It's a camera acquisition format. It's RAW sensor data, compressed and wrapped up. Once an NLE unpacks it to edit, grade etc, a different codec must be used to create finals.


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Joe Marler
Re: Noam Kroll on ProRes RAW.
on Apr 7, 2018 at 11:14:27 am

[Michael Gissing] "DSLRs with ProResRAW? I think not. Their onboard cards are not up to the rigors of this sort of data rate. There's a reason why non DSLR cameras go for CFAST and SSDs. To get from H264 at data rates under 50Mb/s to ProResRAW around 200Mb/s is not insignificant"

The Sandisk Extreme Pro UHS-II 128GB SD card in my Sony A7RIII has a tested write speed of about 250 MB/sec, and my iMac Pro's UHS-II reader can import that at nearly 300 MB/sec.

https://www.cameramemoryspeed.com/reviews/sd-cards/sandisk-extreme-pro-300-...

This user measured 284 MB/sec transferring a video file from a UHS-II card via Finder on his iMac Pro: https://9to5mac.com/2018/02/01/imac-pro-uhs-2-sd-card-workflow-video/

ProRes RAW data rates are less than ProRes 422 HQ, which is about 734 megabit/sec or 92 megabytes/sec for UHD 4k. So it doesn't seem the data rate of current UHS-II cards is an impediment to ProRes RAW.

http://www.arri.com/camera/amira/workflow/amira_workflow/image_format/codec...


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Steve Connor
Re: Noam Kroll on ProRes RAW.
on Apr 7, 2018 at 11:39:58 am

Let's see if the new Blackmagic 4K pocket camera has it then?

Something tells me it just might :)

"Traditional NLEs have timelines. FCPX has storylines" W.Soyka


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Michael Gissing
Re: Noam Kroll on ProRes RAW.
on Apr 7, 2018 at 1:14:00 pm

It makes sense to me that all the Blackmagic 4k+ cameras have this codec. But they haven't bothered to introduce cDNG which is not much greater a data rate to the older 4k range yet. I'm sure it will appear in the Ursa Mini range very soon. Knowing BM, maybe during NAB along with a whole lot of new things. Maybe that's why Apple went first so as not to have their update dwarfed by the usual amazing BM NAB news.


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Michael Gissing
Re: Noam Kroll on ProRes RAW.
on Apr 7, 2018 at 12:54:45 pm

[Joe Marler] "So it doesn't seem the data rate of current UHS-II cards is an impediment to ProRes RAW."

Which is why the Ursa Mini Pro offers these card drives now. But as always the exception doesn't prove the rule. Yes some newer DSLR cameras and cards can support the required data rate. But a single 128 card shooting these codecs in 4k will last 22 minutes max. If ProResRAW is viable then why aren't they shooting ProResHQ 4k already? Because most DSLR cameras need more record time and correct me if I'm wrong but the A7 Sony cameras don't support high data rate codecs, especially ProRes. Why should they. They have their own flavors of XAVC and slog workflows. Canon, Nikon? Doubt that too but more than happy to see them take on a better codec. Panasonic DSLRs? More likely perhaps but the DSLR market is not really the target for this codec in my opinion.

So my point remains that this is not a big deal for DSLRs. Most can't handle it and the newer cameras and cards that can are in cameras that are unlikely to support it. For cameras like Arri, Blackmagic & Panasonic cinema cameras with bigger fast and reliable drives, this is relevant. Time will tell if it is a big deal. Personally I am happy with this codec development but waiting to see how gracious Apple are with it.


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Joe Marler
Re: Noam Kroll on ProRes RAW.
on Apr 8, 2018 at 11:17:23 am

[Michael Gissing] "DSLRs with ProResRAW? I think not. Their onboard cards are not up to the rigors of this sort of data rate."

[Joe Marler] "So it doesn't seem the data rate of current UHS-II cards is an impediment to ProRes RAW."

[Michael Gissing] "...Yes some newer DSLR cameras and cards can support the required data rate. But a single 128 card shooting these codecs in 4k will last 22 minutes max. If ProResRAW is viable then why aren't they shooting ProResHQ 4k already? Because most DSLR cameras need more record time and correct me if I'm wrong but the A7 Sony cameras don't support high data rate codecs, especially ProRes...Panasonic DSLRs? More likely perhaps but the DSLR market is not really the target for this codec in my opinion...."

I don't see the point about *current* DSLR/mirrorless card data rates having anything to do with recording ProResRAW internally. Those cameras don't record ProResRAW internally because it was just announced, and their imaging pipeline doesn't support that -- not because current DSLR cards (CF, SDXC UHS-II, XQD) cannot support the required data rate.

Those cameras will likely not be updated via firmware to support internal ProRes RAW, it will probably require a redesign. When that redesign is done -- for any which might support ProRes RAW -- they will obviously use the correct card type, such as SD UHS-II or XQD. Those card types -- commonly used in DSLR and mirrorless cameras already -- support the required data rates.

The SD-size 256GB XQD card supports nearly 400 MB/sec right now and is used in the Nikon D4, Nikon D4s, Nikon D5, Nikon D850 and Nikon D500. So cards with the required data rate for ProRes RAW are already in wide use -- in DSLRs.

The Panasonic GH5 handles 400 Mbps right now, which is nearly the data rate for 4k ProRes RAW.

The ProRes RAW announcement initially assumes people will use *external* recorders on whatever cameras they have, in which case the internal recording rate or card capacity isn't an issue.

Re recording time and card capacity, 256GB UHS-II and XQD cards already exist and are used in DSLR and mirrorless cameras today. According to a graph in the Apple ProRes RAW white paper, data rate for this may be roughly equal or a little more than ProRes 422. According to the previously-posted ARRI chart, recording time at 4K UHD to a 128GB card is about 27 minutes. From this we might roughly calculate existing 256GB UHS-II or XQD cards would support 54 min recording time per card using ProRes RAW. I don't see 54 minutes per card as a big restriction.

There's a good question about how many DSLR and mirrorless shooters would shoot ProRes RAW, whether internal or externally recorded. I agree it's not for everybody, but they are already shooting 4k 10-bit 4:2:2 All-Intra 400 mbps on the GH5.

For years they've been shooting 3.5k 10-bit lossless RAW on the 5D Mark III via Magic Lantern. That data rate is about 720 Mbps to the internal CF card.

Here is a feature documentary shot using RAW video on the 5D Mark III:







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Michael Gissing
Re: Noam Kroll on ProRes RAW.
on Apr 8, 2018 at 12:50:03 pm

Joe, all this was my response to the article claiming this was big for DSLRs. I don't think this is the market at all. They are not cameras that allow RAW sensor data to be output to external Shogun recorders so it will only work with internal recording if they want it too or with hacks like magic lantern maybe.

They are DSLRs so that's not important. Will some DSLRs adopt this? Sure but for all existing DSLRs it is unlikely. And these days with Blackmagic making cine cameras so cheap, I don't see why DSLRs will be as popular for the sort of high end cine work that RAW formats are good for. So you can keep arguing how newer DSLRs might be capable but I just do not agree with the article stating this is huge for DSLRs. We shall see.


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Joe Marler
Re: Noam Kroll on ProRes RAW.
on Apr 8, 2018 at 9:54:46 pm

[Michael Gissing] "this was my response to the article claiming this was big for DSLRs. I don't think this is the market at all..."

The article never stated this was big for DSLRs. Rather, he said it would be big for some filmmakers who currently use upper-echelon DSLR or mirrorless cameras like the GH5. That category of user might be interested in ProRes RAW on a future GH6 or Sony A7SIII. He didn't mean people will shoot ProRes RAW on a Nikon D3400.

The class of DSLR/mirrorless camera that might use this will not be impeded at all by SD card data rates. Those cameras already use UHS-II or XQD cards.

[Michael Gissing] "....They are not cameras that allow RAW sensor data to be output to external Shogun recorders so it will only work with internal recording if they want it too or with hacks like magic lantern maybe..."

Yes, that is a good point. You can't get RAW sensor data from HDMI.

[Michael Gissing] "...Will some DSLRs adopt this? Sure but for all existing DSLRs it is unlikely..."

I think that is what he meant by referencing the GH5 and "other small form factor cameras". He meant the category of filmmakers who are using that type of camera and already dealing with 400 Mbps data rates, yet only getting intra-frame H264 in return. The Sony FS5 is a "small form factor camera" that requires 600 Mbps for 4k XAVC-Intra. For those users, incrementally stepping up to 700 Mbps and getting internal RAW could be useful.


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Oliver Peters
Re: Noam Kroll on ProRes RAW.
on Apr 9, 2018 at 12:23:51 am

I think it’s important to note that this is an acquisition format. You aren’t going to render out a mezzanine master file in ProResRAW from FCPX.

- Oliver

Oliver Peters - oliverpeters.com


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Dom Silverio
Re: Noam Kroll on ProRes RAW.
on Apr 9, 2018 at 2:05:25 pm

Read this in the comment section but could not find it in the white paper

"there will be no control of WB and ISO in ProResRAW files before the debayer in FCPX."

Is this confirmed?

Doesn't this defeat a huge portion of shooting RAW?


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