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Bret Williams
Another FCP X screenshot?
on Apr 15, 2011 at 7:12:26 am

Could this be another screenshot of FCP X? Well no. But the similarities are uncanny, no? This is iMovie 11. Anyone that hasn't played with it lately can play with many of the new features of FCP X today. Magnetic timeline. Precision editor. Audio waveform/adjustment coolness. It's just limited to a single AB track.



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walter biscardi
Re: Another FCP X screenshot?
on Apr 15, 2011 at 10:57:49 am

In other words, Final Cut Pro Express.... :)

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

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Brian Mulligan
Re: Another FCP X screenshot?
on Apr 15, 2011 at 11:46:22 am

And the inverse...

FCP X is also iMovie Pro



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walter biscardi
Re: Another FCP X screenshot?
on Apr 15, 2011 at 11:57:56 am

It amuses me when Apple stated something like "although FCP X may have an appearance like iMovie, all similarities end there."

Except for the "new" features rolled out in FCP X that are already available in iMovie 11 as pointed out so well by Bret above.

But the similarities REALLY end there. We mean it this time... :)

Gonna be a fun June.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

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Bret Williams
Re: Another FCP X screenshot?
on Apr 15, 2011 at 1:34:13 pm

I was actually axes to discover just how powerful 11 was. Much more powerful than FCP in terms of ingest, rendering, Effects, audio, transitions. The only thing that stinks about iMovie is that ridiculous timeline and how it keeps rippling and moving things around for me like all non-professional editing software does. Thank goodness FCP X won't.... oh wait.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Another FCP X screenshot?
on Apr 15, 2011 at 4:59:05 pm

Bret is absolutely correct about this - there are so many respects in which what we saw at the Sneak Peek was stuff that was already implemented in iMovie 11. The interface and timeline functionality are in almost every respect the same, from things like the Magnetic Timeline and the Precision Editor to the Context Menus, the Audio editing tools to just about everything else.

The only major difference is the layout of the edit window where for some odd reason the "Timeline" is up in the top left corner and the "Browser" is down at the bottom.

Anybody still under the impression that we will be getting un updated version of FCP 7 is in for a very big disappointment, I would have thought.

That said, from what I've learnt so far of iMovie 11 it's very, very fast and a real delight to use, albeit in no sense a pro type experience, and bodes well for FCPX. There is no doubt in my mind that Apple have taken a product that works and are building the new FCP on top of that - but frankly to call it FCP is a bit of a sleight of hand to say the least.


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Chris Kenny
Re: Another FCP X screenshot?
on Apr 16, 2011 at 2:36:19 am

[walter biscardi] "It amuses me when Apple stated something like "although FCP X may have an appearance like iMovie, all similarities end there."

Except for the "new" features rolled out in FCP X that are already available in iMovie 11 as pointed out so well by Bret above. "


Apple has clearly been working on FCP X for a long time. Probably since wrapping up FCP 6 in mid-2007 (FCP 7 having been more a maintenance release). It frankly seems more plausible that iMovie was used as a low-risk testbed for FCP X interface innovations than that FCP X is literally a descendant of iMovie.

Digital Workflow/Colorist
You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read Is FCP X a professional app? on our blog.


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Paul Jay
Re: Another FCP X screenshot?
on Apr 15, 2011 at 5:08:33 pm

Blaaaaa
Dude. Switch to Autodesk Smoke.
Have u used FcpX?
Doubt it.


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David Jahns
Re: Another FCP X screenshot?
on Apr 15, 2011 at 7:47:01 pm

I would bet money that most of the consumer features will be there if you want them , but also able to be turned off if you don't want them. More convenient for quick edits, but then turn them off for precision work.

This actually follows the pattern of other ProApps - GarageBand features find their way into Logic, and iPhoto features find their way up to Aperture. And yet Aperture and Logic are both easier to use, and just as powerful as they were - they were not dumbed down at all to incorporate new features.

So - should we expect the same with FCP? Not sure...

The biggest difference is that FCP was a ground up rewrite, and my hunch is that the version shipping in June will not have some things pros are used to in FCP 7, simply because they are focusing on the flashy stuff, not the nitty-gritty stuff like EDL & XML output, gang syncing 2 sequences, etc.

(Will a compound clip export a proper EDL? Nested sequences never did!)

But as we ask for them, they will be added back in over time as they all get re-written. So, essentially, we're back to FCP ver 1 - great tool for one-stop shopping, where you ingest, edit, and finish all right in the same system, but not so great for collaborative and off/online workflows.

With professional feedback/demands, eventually FCP X2 will get a little better, and the new architecture will allow for things we never even had before, like DPX support, RGB finishing, etc... That's my hope at least!

Yes, it will certainly be interesting times...

David Jahns
Joint Editorial
Portland, OR


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Another FCP X screenshot?
on Apr 15, 2011 at 7:59:09 pm

I think it's very hard to sustain the view that FCPX is a "ground up rewrite" of the old Final Cut if you've taken even a brief look at iMovie 11. There are not just some similarities with what was demo-ed the other night - it is quite obviously almost identical in every respect except for a few more snazzy refinements (and lots of beefy under-the-hood goodness).

I'm sure Apple will build it up into a genuinely pro App with all the bells and whistles but there is really no doubt about what it's built from.


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David Jahns
Re: Another FCP X screenshot?
on Apr 15, 2011 at 8:52:00 pm

Sorry - I should have been more clear.

Of course, they're not rewriting the Browser code in Cocoa 64, and keeping it exactly the same as it was in the OS 9 version.

What I meant is that it's all code written for a modern 64 bit app - not an OS 9 app from 12 years ago. Whether or not they borrow that code and core architecture from iMovie as a starting point is irrelevant.

What matters (to me, at least) is what "Pro" features they add to it. iMovie COULD export XML files, if they chose to add the functionality to the program. Obviously, that would be silly for iMovie - but any app named Pro should be able to do so - in my opinion.

And honestly, iMovie 11 may have been taken from the FCP X development, which has been in the works for years. Why do you think FCP 7 felt more like 6.5? Because they were really focusing on this FCP-X, and did a bare minimum to release an "new version", because we demand a new version every couple of years.

Maybe iMovie is really FCP Lite!

David Jahns
Joint Editorial
Portland, OR


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Another FCP X screenshot?
on Apr 15, 2011 at 9:12:14 pm

I reckon you could be right that iMovie 11 is FCPX Lite - in other words something that has been in development for a while quite separate from the original FCP app. I just wanted to make the point that most people, even on this forum, seem to be missing, which is that there can't be any doubt where the new app is coming from and that's the iMovie development path - they patently share virtually all of their DNA, put it that way, and not one jot of FCP 7's DNA.


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Bret Williams
Re: Another FCP X screenshot?
on Apr 15, 2011 at 11:05:04 pm

IMovie 11 is an upgrade to '09 which was the iMovie shift. Apparently 11 has a lot more features whereas 09 was pretty flat. So my guess is that 09 was sort of meant to be a video catalog like iPhoto, with a basic editor. But the need for a FCP overhaul was needed. Along the way they realized they could shift both apps to the same track, whilst using imovie as sort of a testing ground. By doing so, as with iPhoto/ Aperture, you are more likely to upgrade to the pro version you are familiar with. They even tried this with DVD SP an the basic mode that resembles iDVD, but it never caught on and you can't buy DVD SP separately now anyway.


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Andy Mees
Re: Another FCP X screenshot?
on Apr 16, 2011 at 10:19:39 am

[Simon Ubsdell] "The only major difference is the layout of the edit window where for some odd reason the "Timeline" is up in the top left corner and the "Browser" is down at the bottom."

Just click the little (swap events and projects) button just to the right of the camera button (the open camera import window button).



[David Jahns] " iMovie COULD export XML files, if they chose to add the functionality to the program."

But iMovie CAN already export XML files (Share menu > Export Final Cut XML...)

Cheers
Andy


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Another FCP X screenshot?
on Apr 16, 2011 at 10:24:19 am

Great tips, thanks Andy. But interestingly, XML export doesn't support multiple audio tracks, only the audio from the source clip, no additional laid tracks ... Probably shouldn't draw any inferences from that!


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Chris Kenny
Re: Another FCP X screenshot?
on Apr 16, 2011 at 2:53:50 am

[David Jahns] "The biggest difference is that FCP was a ground up rewrite, and my hunch is that the version shipping in June will not have some things pros are used to in FCP 7, simply because they are focusing on the flashy stuff, not the nitty-gritty stuff like EDL & XML output, gang syncing 2 sequences, etc."

Apple isn't crazy. They started that event off bragging about feature films. They're not going to go and ditch something as basic as XML exporting. Not when FCP XML importing was a significant new feature recently announced for three separate grading/conforming systems (Baselight, Resolve, Scratch).

EDLs could be... interesting, with all the new timeline features. But... what are you going to do? Never move timelines beyond where they were in 1992, because that's where EDL is stuck? I am curious about how Apple will deal with this.

Digital Workflow/Colorist
You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read Is FCP X a professional app? on our blog.


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Bret Williams
Re: Another FCP X screenshot?
on Apr 15, 2011 at 10:44:34 pm

Have you used iMovie? Not sure actually what you were implying, but iMovie is obviously the foundation for FCPx. It even has the little iTunes and iPhoto import buttons. Belch.

I'm sure smoke is awesome.


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Richard Johnson
Re: Another FCP X screenshot?
on Apr 16, 2011 at 1:50:56 am

All this talk of FCP-X being "I-MoviePro" or "Final Cut Lite" is funny stuff. They really do seem to have their similarities. That being said, all I really need my NLE to do is allow me to edit. The less I have to think about how to do what I want the better. In this regard, simply having background rendering while I get to keep working is going to be a timesaver.

In terms of it not being "Pro" anymore, which is the sentiment I've heard from a lot of people, I just don't get it. I think, for the most part I COULD edit about just as well in Imovie. Editing, for the most part, is about having an eye for how to tell a story. The technical work I do that the average thirteen year old who owns Imovie can't do is in the other applications in the Final Cut Studio suite. Does I'movie have Final Touch aka "Color". That program ran about $25,000 before Apple bought Silicon Color and included the software in the Final Cut Studio suite. Soundtrack pro is actually pretty efficient when you memorize the keyboard shortcuts. I prefer After Effects and Cinema4D for motion graphics work but Motion is pretty nifty if you want to pump something out quickly.

I'm just as anxious as the next person about the future of FCP but to me it has a lot more to do with the rest of the applications in the Final Cut Pro ecosystem. If they are kept around, integrated well, updated to 64 bit and utilize my MacPro as I wish they had for the last 3 years, I'll be a happy camper. So Final Cut Pro's graphical user interface resembles Imovie. Big deal.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Another FCP X screenshot?
on Apr 16, 2011 at 10:16:19 am

No, this isn't just about a "similarity in the graphical interface" as you put it. It's much more fundamental than that.

They are not "similar products", they are quite simply the same product - no two ways about it. There are so many points in which they are absolutely identical that it doesn't make any sense to suggest otherwise.

Have a look at the specific implementation of a) the Magnetic Timeline and b) the Precision Editor (to name only the most obvious points of identity). These are the identical terms used by both applications and function absolutely identically.

In short, FCPX is iMovie with alloy wheels, air con and a bigger engine but otherwise it's the same model.


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Richard Johnson
Re: Another FCP X screenshot?
on Apr 16, 2011 at 3:12:35 pm

Simon, I don't think you understood my post. I agree with you that they have certain similarities in the GUI and in certain functions. Some may find these functions helpful, others will not.

I think you missed the "fundamental" point of my post which was: the ecosystem of the entire Final Cut STUDIO is what I am most interested in. I may or may not use some of the new features in Final Cut ProX itself but if it utilizes all 8 cores of my Mac Pro and accesses all 24 gigs of ram and utilizes my 5770 GPU I'm happy. I'm sure I'll be able to figure out how to edit well on it. What's more interesting to me is the fate of the other Apps in the suite, most notably Color, Soundtrack Pro, Motion, and Compressor. If these "Pro" apps are updated as well as FCPX I'll gladly pay $299 for each application. If they are abandoned, I'll be moving to Premiere.


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Another FCP X screenshot?
on Apr 16, 2011 at 3:20:58 pm

Yup, I totally agree with that - I was commenting more on the topic in the OP which was the basic identity between the two apps.

Like you I use pretty much all of the rest of the suite all the time and very much depend on it. I have to say I'm finding it very hard at the moment to see how you get from an iMovie like editing application (which may or may not be a great leap forward) back to a situation where you've got a more or less integrate suite of apps on the old model (which is now of course also the Adobe model and increasingly well implemented by them)- especially since there was not one single mention of this aspect the other night, whatever may or may not have been dropped in conversation to the Larry Jordan's of this world. It does seem a rather strange oversight. Why not say: "if you like this why not see wait and see what we've done with the other apps?!" But there was none of that.

What seems pretty clear to me is that there is no meaningful sense in which, as has been repeatedly stated on no evidence whatsoever, that Color and Soundtrack Pro have been folded into the new editing app. Nobody seems to have picked up on this yet.


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Andy Mees
Re: Another FCP X screenshot?
on Apr 16, 2011 at 3:52:52 pm

[Simon Ubsdell] "They are not "similar products", they are quite simply the same product - no two ways about it."

No Simon, they are not. There is a shared code base certainly, and they have equally clearly built FCP X on the foundations of iMovie, or maybe iMovie in its present form is just a bi-product of the work that has been going on for the last 3 years in rewriting FCP, intriguing theories abound but either way they are "quite simply" NOT the same product. Did Avid DV Free share interface layout and design elements with Avid Media Composer? Yes. Did they share some basic fundamental operability, Yes. Was Avid DV Free a great place for aspiring Avid editors to learn the most basic principals of working with Avid editing systems, Yes. Were they the same product, of course not.

Ok, don't know why I'm getting so feisty about it, maybe we both need a chill pill ;-)


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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Another FCP X screenshot?
on Apr 16, 2011 at 4:13:07 pm

OK, Andy, so maybe we're getting "feisty" over semantics here rather than any basic disagreement.

To draw an imperfect analogy, I would argue for example that Baselight for FCP and Autodesk Smoke for Mac are "the same product" as their big and much more expensive brothers, and my guess is the same holds good for iMovie and FCPX, give or take. On your analogy I would disagree and say that the two AVID products are "the same". But that's just me!

it is for this reason that I think that iMovie 11 is worth exploring and discussing alongside rumours of FCPX on this brand new forum. Does that sound fair? ;-)

What I find curious (and why I was labouring the point rather) is that a lot of folks are discussing FCPX as though it is either a brand new product with no relation to anything that has gone before or that it is somehow an incremental advance on the old FCP. Neither of these positions can be remotely correct surely?


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Greg Andonian
Re: Another FCP X screenshot?
on Apr 16, 2011 at 4:12:23 am

This revelation is actually a bit disturbing, when you think back to what would have happened at the Supermeet if Apple hadn't shown up.

So to re-cap... Apple kicked out a bunch of companies who were set to talk about products related to professional editing, so they could showcase the big features of iMovie 11.

doubleyoo tee eff.


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Chris Kenny
Re: Another FCP X screenshot?
on Apr 16, 2011 at 5:10:17 am

[Greg Andonian] "This revelation is actually a bit disturbing, when you think back to what would have happened at the Supermeet if Apple hadn't shown up.

So to re-cap... Apple kicked out a bunch of companies who were set to talk about products related to professional editing, so they could showcase the big features of iMovie 11.

doubleyoo tee eff."


Translated from TrollSpeak: Apple felt it was worth taking over the stage time at an event arranged by a Final Cut Pro User Group to announce the most significant update to Final Cut Pro since it originally shipped.

Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve
You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read Is FCP X a professional app? on our blog.


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Greg Andonian
Re: Another FCP X screenshot?
on Apr 16, 2011 at 5:12:14 am

Ok, ok... I went back and watched the video again, and there ARE a lot of things going on in that demo that I know iMovie will never be able to do, and a lot of them ARE very impressive. Sorry about my previous rant- I just feel a bit let down, knowing that some of the things I was really impressed with (like that range selection thing) are actually just glorified iMovie features.

I do like a lot of things about this. I really like how you can easily rearrange b-roll clips without knocking anything out of whack. The compound clips thing is also neat (though I think it would be better if they were a different color than normal clips, to stand out more). And I really like that color matching thing.


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Jerry Hofmann
Re: Another FCP X screenshot?
on Apr 16, 2011 at 6:29:30 pm

If indeed FCP X was really "iMovie Pro", who cares? What REAL difference does it make?

NLE Software has been inexpensive enough for anybody to buy it for quite some time now. FCS (2009) was being sold for a song IMHO. So's Avid. $995? My first Avid cost 64k, and did less than iMovie 1.

It comes down to this: Does the tool do it for you or not? No NLE made a better edit decision than the next NLE, right? I don't care what code was used as long as the tool gets the jobs done I need to get done. Any NLE that works faster is welcome in my book. Video processing time is going to be minimized in this new NLE. Doesn't matter to me who, how, or where they got the ideas for the software as long as they work, they work.

Leveling the playing field to enter the game already happened I think... FCP X could be a free download and do more than a Flame combined with Smoke and all of AVID thrown in, and this wouldn't change what's happened already to the world of professional editing. The tools are accessible to anybody and have been for some time.

I rather like the new interface.

It's not the tools that give you the status, it's the resume. Anybody can buy the tools.

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer, Producer, Writer, Director Editor, Gun for Hire and other things. I ski. My Blog: http://blogs.creativecow.net/Jerry-Hofmann

Current DVD:
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Simon Ubsdell
Re: Another FCP X screenshot?
on Apr 16, 2011 at 7:36:44 pm

[Jerry Hofmann] "If indeed FCP X was really "iMovie Pro", who cares? What REAL difference does it make? "

I personally don't care one bit, to be perfectly honest, and I don't think it was the point that Bret was trying to make in the OP.

I do however think that there is an interesting discussion to be had based on realising the essential sameness of the two apps.

In essence, it seems clear that you can delve into iMovie 11 and experience the "look and feel" of FCPX right now. If you take the trouble to do this, the chances are you will be well ahead of the curve when FCPX comes out in June.

This is not a value judgement - merely an observation that might be useful to anyone interested in the future of FCP. I imagine that would apply to most people following this forum. Understanding the development path of FCPX is probably quite a useful thing to do if you are planning on using the app in the future.


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