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John Heagy
General Back up & Archive Forum
on Apr 5, 2010 at 1:40:42 am

Correct me if I'm wrong but there doesn't seem to be any forum to discuss Back up & Archive. Some may say the Xsan or general San forum, but even the firewire crowd should be backing up and archiving - so I think it deserves it's own forum.

We've recently bought a Quantum LTO-4 changer controlled by PresStore. Cache-A is a popular smaller scale option for LTO-4. Of course LTO-5 was announced not too long ago.

John Heagy
NFL Films


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Fred Jodry
Re: General Back up & Archive Forum
on Apr 5, 2010 at 1:22:17 pm

Backup and archive can be in different forums but it is also mainly in the new "Arrays and Raid" forum because the original and design ideas discussed for it in this Feedback forum from February 24 onward a week was "Raid and Storage".


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Ron Lindeboom
Re: General Back up & Archive Forum
on Apr 5, 2010 at 5:30:26 pm

We put it up as "ARRAYS & RAID Set-Up" so that it would appear at the beginning of the listings and more people would notice it and maybe take part in using it.

You will find it right at the beginning of the listings.

Ron Lindeboom


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John Heagy
Re: General Back up & Archive Forum
on Apr 5, 2010 at 5:42:08 pm

Array and RAID hard drives can be used for back up, but they should not be used for archive. I wouldn't expect people to post questions about LTO tape systems or long term archive strategies here... IMHO

Thanks
John Heagy
NFL Films


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Drew Pearce
Re: General Back up & Archive Forum
on May 7, 2010 at 12:14:47 pm

I'm inclined to agree with John. A place to discuss ideas related to backup, archive, and disaster recovery systems for media professionals would be really helpful.

-Drew


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Marc Grubb
Re: General Back up & Archive Forum
on Jun 10, 2010 at 5:27:13 pm

John, Ron, to split hairs a bit, RAIDs and Arrays offer *redundancy* in the event of inevitable drive failures, and are not "backup". They certainly are not "archive" either!

Ron, I for one would also LOVE to see a dedicated backup and archive forum, and I would be active in it. I'm an IT consultant with a strong Pro Video focus, and there are LOTS of smaller businesses using hard drives as archive/backup, which is a REALLY bad idea! It's my mission to protect businesses and especially, their data/footage.

Marc L. Grubb
Owner/Creative Technologist
fusion IT
Apple Certified Technical Coordinator
Member,  Consultants Network


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Ron Lindeboom
Re: General Back up & Archive Forum
on Jun 10, 2010 at 5:48:42 pm

[Marc Grubb] "John, Ron, to split hairs a bit, RAIDs and Arrays offer *redundancy* in the event of inevitable drive failures, and are not "backup". They certainly are not "archive" either!"


I never said they were. I have been doing video for almost two decades now, Marc, and many years ago penned an article on "RAID Arrays & Striping: How They Work" -- yes, it's old but it was quite helpful when it was written.

So if you misunderstood me to be saying that RAID is for back-up or heaven forbid, archiving, it was not my intent in the slightest.

The only reason I suggested posting in the ARRAYS & RAID forum is that it is the forum MOST CLOSELY related to the subject, as we do not have a BACK-UP forum and likely never will. (This, as in 15 years of building forums, this is the first thread we have had requesting that we add one.)

Best regards,

Ron Lindeboom


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Fred Jodry
Re: General Back up & Archive Forum
on Jun 10, 2010 at 8:37:25 pm

John, Marc, you are wrong when you think that RAID has nothing sensible to do with archiving. One of the troubles is that RAID can encompass two opposite goals or mix them. RAID 0 is when what`s getting recorded or played is split between say, two or more hard drives to multiply speed. Clearly, when one of the drives caves in, the archive, whether short term storage, or long, is now incomplete, in other words, unsatisfactory, and usually completely worthless. Typically, in RAID 0 you are completely right in that the risk of failure is often divided almost exactly according to the number of drives substituting for the plain number used. In Raid 1 though, the data is redundant (paralleled) except for whatever new data is not yet written onto which drive is trailing (description simplified to two drives). More complicated arrays with maintenance features can make things more perfect and closer to what you and I can agree on. Still, your frowning when you think of RAID 0 instead of when RAID 1 is closer to typical archiving is about to be joined by more exposures as lack of thought. Who says every array is RAID? Who says every RAID (or array) has to be hard drives or all hard drives? Imagine for instance a generally functioning computer setup that then backs up it`s work twice a day during the off peak hours onto a hard drive array mostly to "increase horsepower" then writes to very many tape or CD/DVD recorders at the same time to brace up the weak steps of the operation even more on the very same cables and hardware cards as the array hard drives. -While!- the returning archive sets tapes or CDs/DVDs are being played back into the same cables, hardware, and array hard drives that spit it onward into the computer setup. Then the planned off- peak backup and restore is over and the computer operation returns it`s voyaging into the deeper ocean of peak load operation and customers while the floor technician hits the off- switch or low- switch on the booster backup operation before the electric bill climbs above the operating budget. One of the problems of the Array And RAID Storage Forum is that it was first made in the Feedback Forum between about February 24 and March 10 with the result that it`s beginning is neither in the proper forum nor on it`s first page. For instance, nearly complete opposites and the practical substitutes were asked for too. Although some archiving areas are far away from the usual drone of video.../audio editing and short term storage, there are some mutual areas too, such as when the hardware cards that can format, zero out, test, or otherwise utility hard drives can also do the same to tape or swinging read/ write arms (Zip, Jaz) storage, on the same cables. What about automatic backup and storage software? Just because one operation leans it`s shoulders on a Rave HD cube while another shuttles burned DVDs in wax paper sandwich bags while another stores data on a hard drive in a padded shoe-box while another plugs LTO tapes while another prods through the CalDigit offerings looking for something that justifies the cost while being the right size while someone takes a charcoaled stick out of the fire and writes his tax notes on a piece of paper then puts it under the seat of his chair, doesn`t mean the creative cattle have to get hot on each other and have a cow. CreativeCow.Net already has about 160 topics so I agree with Ron. Jump in and get splashing, the water`s fine.


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John Heagy
Re: General Back up & Archive Forum
on Jun 11, 2010 at 8:39:50 pm

[Fred Jodry] "John, Marc, you are wrong when you think that RAID has nothing sensible to do with archiving."

Nobody is asserting that.. Certainly data that is backed up or archived most likely came from a RAID.

Bottom line: If you're Archiving to HD, RAID or otherwise, you're asking for trouble. Unfortunately too many people are doing just that, so discussing archive on a RAID forum only encourages it.

[Fred Jodry] "CreativeCow.Net already has about 160 topics..."

Agreed... too many.

Can I suggest loosing the Mobile Me forum and replace it with Archive & Back-up.

John Heagy





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Ernie Santella
Re: General Back up & Archive Forum
on Jun 14, 2010 at 3:50:56 am

I'm all for adding a forum for this topic.

So, what recommendations do you guys have for a small shop? I've looked at some of these products mentioned but they are way too large and expensive for me. Any low cost options for archiving?


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Michael Aranyshev
Re: General Back up & Archive Forum
on Jun 14, 2010 at 9:09:11 am

Tape-based back-up has been around for ages and the hardware has been progressing and evolving steadily. Software however looks and feels the same it did a decade ago. Where is an app that would take an EDL and retrieve exactly the frames used in this EDL from a library of LTO tapes? OK it's really hard to do this trick with QT movies but why not with DPX sequences?


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John Heagy
Re: General Back up & Archive Forum
on Jun 14, 2010 at 2:22:27 pm

[Michael Aranyshev] "Where is an app that would take an EDL and retrieve exactly the frames used in this EDL from a library of LTO tapes?"

Not very familiar with DPX workflows but with DPX a good MAM(Media Asset Manager) is essential, and expensive, and i'd imagine it would have an archive function to handle restores. Short of that all you'd have to determine which files to restore "manually".

DPX is the defintion of fine granularity so you can restore down to the frame level. If you want to restore part of a QT or MXF file then you'd need "partial file restore". StorNext offers this as well as Cache-A with mxf (look for "mxf aware"). I heard Atempo was working on this a s well. We handle the granularity issue by "chopping up" large files so we don't need to restore a 1hr file for a 5 sec shot.

John Heagy



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yannick guillerm
Re: General Back up & Archive Forum
on Oct 15, 2010 at 11:11:58 pm

Hi John,

Just came through your post today. You mentioned several things about DPX management and partial restore. Atempo ADA 3.1 (soon 3.2) handles archiving of DPX files. It can read the DPX file header to read its metadata and store it in the ADA database. It then becomes searchable in the ADA GUI. You can search on DPX files with a specific frame rate for example.
ADA 3.1 also offers native partial restore of MXF files.

Don't hesitate to contact us if you'd like more information.

Yannick Guillerm
Atempo Inc
yannick.guillerm@atempo.com

PS: I'm also in favor of a new "ARCHIVE, BACKUP and ASSET MANAGEMENT" forum on Creative Cow :)


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B.J. Ahlen
Re: General Back up & Archive Forum
on Jun 14, 2010 at 4:01:29 pm

As a producer and editor looking at a scary amount of hard drives used for media backup, I'm now forced to get up to date on the various data tape technologies.

I'm hoping that the 1.6 TB (native) LTO-5 drives will be here soon with full reliability and true backwards R/W compatibility with LTO-4, but there is so much going on in this field, it is scary.

Like John, I think that a dedicated Backup and Archive forum would generate quite substantial interest and traffic, as well as additional sponsors.

There is a lot to talk about, from different types of drives and interfaces, different kinds of software support, autoloaders, etc., etc.

I'll be happy to share the best ways to handle off site media backup, as well as what I have learned from 7 years of using multi-generational online backup for non-media project files.



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