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Seeking LTO / LTFS Wisdom.

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Jamie Watt
Seeking LTO / LTFS Wisdom.
on Dec 17, 2014 at 5:33:53 pm

Hi, I am a relative newbie to LTO tech. We have a Tandberg Data LTO6 Drive hooked up to a Mac running 10.8.5. I'm using LTFS manager to backup typically 50GB+ video files. I've managed to put them onto the tape without any issues.

Conscious that at some point we would need to copy the video files back onto an HDD, I decided to see how long it would take to copy a video file back off the LTO tape. I anticipated that the drag-and-drop functionality engendered by LTFS would make it fairly straightforward, but it wasn't.

Retrieving a file took forever- looking into it I discovered that a combination of Finder and the linear nature of the tape was to blame for the long read times. From reading forum posts here I understand that Finder sees the LTFS volume as regular drive (I think) and attempts to generate all the meta-info (date created, size etc) each time a finder type operation is performed… and that's partly responsible for the treacly nature of my interactions with the material on the tape.

Apart from using something like BRU PE, are there any strategies for speeding things up? I read that using Terminal is a relatively speedy option for performing copy operations, but I would really like to stay within a GUI as I have an irrational fear of the Command Line… I also read that if you put a file into a folder and copy that folder rather than the file itself from the tape to an HDD it will speed things up…

Is this the case? Any other suggestions for making the retrieval of video files from LTO tape less painful? I tried to copy a 20 GB file earlier and it suggested it would take 2 days, which is a bit slower than I'd anticipated.

Please forgive any ignorance on my part. I'm new here.


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Bob Zelin
Re: Seeking LTO / LTFS Wisdom.
on Dec 19, 2014 at 10:06:15 pm

and exactly what's wrong with using BRU ? It has a nice GUI, so you don't have to ever see any CLI commands.

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Jamie Watt
Re: Seeking LTO / LTFS Wisdom.
on Dec 20, 2014 at 12:05:58 am

I'm sure that there is nothing wrong with using BRU. I had a bit more of an issue with spending $500 on it after the original outlay on the LTO drive/media/interface... so I was hoping to keep costs down having thought that I'd finished the Backup/Archival spend.

I did figure out how to use Terminal for basic operations. It brought back not unpleasant memories of MS-DOS, but I have to train non-techies in the use of LTO for archival etc, so I think I will have to shell out for a pretty GUI. I am going to ask Santa for either BRU PE or PreRoll Post.

I'm favouring Pre Roll Post at the moment... for the following reasons given by Kevin Francis in another post, but still open to BRU PE if anyone can give me more compelling reasons for using it...

PreRollPost uses LTFS, an open standard that is becoming more and more widely adopted, does provide MD5 checksum verification, and orders the files for quick backup and restore, and stores archive data in a MySQL Lite format, which is searchable within the application.


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Bob Zelin
Re: Seeking LTO / LTFS Wisdom.
on Dec 23, 2014 at 3:15:31 am

Let me tell you something Jamie. As I get older, I am getting (once again) more aggressive on Creative Cow, and I know that I will eventually be thrown off, but I don't care - because of people like you. I use Imagine Products PreRoll Post all the time - it is a great LTFS software program. It's easy to use, AND they have little training videos on their website, to make it easy to learn how to use it. But it's the same price as Tolis BRU, which is also a wonderful program, with a wonderful easy to read and use users guide and quick start guide.

I have certainly played with the HP StorOpen software which is free.

In a couple of words, ITS A PIECE OF USELESS CRAP. (but it's free).

So Jamie - isn't a piece of software that is easy to use, and wonderful, and help you make money - don't those people DESERVE TO MAKE SOME MONEY ?????? Or do you want to make ALL THE MONEY, and the people that help you get NOTHING ? Do you want some moron to get onto Creative Cow, and say "hey Jamie, you don't have to spend one penny - all you have to do is run this terminal command, and then you don't have to buy BRU or PreRoll Post, and now you get to keep all the money from your clients for yourself". Would you pay this contributor on Creative Cow any money ? Would you say "hey man, thanks so much, can I give you a nice Christmas Present, and by the way, if I give you a little more money, would you answer my questions for free for the next year or two, so I can run problem free, in case I get into some trouble in the near future" ?

NO - you would not say this - you just want stuff for free, so you can keep all your clients money FOR YOURSELF, and not give a penny to any of the companies that make your life easier. You have to PAY COMPANIES (or people) to help you - there is no free lunch. These prices are cheaper than ever, and these are wonderful products, that will protect your behind, and let you make money from your clients, and you HAVE TO GIVE A LITTLE to the people or companies that help you.
Merry Christmas

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Neil Sadwelkar
Re: Seeking LTO / LTFS Wisdom.
on Dec 25, 2014 at 3:25:41 am

I agree with Bob. $500 for a software for doing safe, secure, and peace-of-mind backups is a no-brainer.

I own BRU-PE and Preroll Post. But I tend to use BRU more often. My experience with PreRoll Post has been posted here a couple of times. It seems to have issues with large file sequence archives - like ArriRaw, OpenEXR, DPX - so if you're data is much of that, then you may see problems that I saw. But Imagine are working on that aggressively and hopefully it will be a thing of the past.

On the Mac, for newbies, a simple to use, and fully secure software that makes backup effortless... there is nothing like BRU-PE. With a huge plus being that the software to restore your data is free of charge, and you're welcome to distribute it along with your backups. Meaning a client can be assured that he can restore his data without coming back to you.

PreRoll Post is an interesting development, but its still work-in-progress.

-----------------------------------
Neil Sadwelkar
neilsadwelkar.blogspot.com
twitter: fcpguru
FCP Editor, Edit systems consultant
Mumbai India


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Craig Alan
Re: Seeking LTO / LTFS Wisdom.
on Jan 4, 2015 at 5:45:10 pm

Hi Bob,

We have a growing production class lab with 10 thunderbolt iMacs and Pegasus raids.

On another forum you recommended:

"Imagine Products PreRoll Post with the MLogic MTape"

I assume that this is the least expensive of your recommended thunderbolt solutions and most portable/self-contained?

The unit has two thunderbolt ports so I can daisy chain it to our Pegasus Raids at each station?
Or does it need to be in a different order. MAC>RAID>LTO drive?

The Tolis Group's solutions look more expandable but requires at least two units - one to integrate with the thunderbolt Mac and then the LTO drive(s) are connected to it.

With the Imagine Products, do you recommend the "PreRollPost application" for an additional fee ($100 discount when bought with unit) or is - BRU Producer's Edition (PE) software or perhaps CAT DV better with the Imagine Products unit?

With 1 LTO drive and multiple iMacs and 100s of projects, I need a way to archive the tapes and have a spreadsheet of what is on them. This needs to be updated as I will wipe out the majority of the projects on both the raids and tapes at the end of each semester, saving only those we might need.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Canon 5D Mark III/70D, Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV40, Sony Z7U/VX2000/PD170; FCP 6 certified; FCP X write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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Jamie Watt
Re: Seeking LTO / LTFS Wisdom.
on Jan 28, 2015 at 4:13:05 pm

Bob, I normally avoid entering into discussions with people who use CAPS in vain. So I will not do so now. I hope that you can forgive me for trying to save money.

I ended up BUYING PreRoll Post as it makes my life EASIER and is good VALUE.

I figured out the relevant Terminal commands which did improve the speed of working with files on the LTO tape, but PreRoll Post offered a lot more functionality and a better workflow than LTFS/ Terminal.


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Kiki Muchtar
Re: Seeking LTO / LTFS Wisdom.
on Feb 22, 2015 at 10:14:03 am

[Jamie Watt] I figured out the relevant Terminal commands which did improve the speed of working with files on the LTO tape

Hi jamie, do you care to share the relevant commands? Right now I do it via finder, takes 5-6 hrs (same time if I use BRU PE) to finish archiving. Sure it helps me a lot if i could make the process speedier.


Thanks,
Kiki


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Tim Jones
Re: Seeking LTO / LTFS Wisdom.
on Feb 22, 2015 at 4:18:49 pm

If BRU PE is taking 5-6 hours to fill your LTO tape, something's wrong and you should mention that in your support ticket. An LTO-6 tape with BRU PE should take just over 4 hours to fill.

Using the command line with LTFS simply removes the Finder overhead, so the performance there would be better than the Finder copy, but still slower than BRU PE.

Tim
--
Tim Jones
CTO - TOLIS Group, Inc.
http://www.tolisgroup.com
BRU ... because it's the RESTORE that matters!


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Kiki Muchtar
Re: Seeking LTO / LTFS Wisdom.
on Jan 24, 2015 at 3:17:02 pm

Hi. I'm also new to archiving using LTO drive. I work for a foundation that archives national film collection (unlike in many developed countries, we don't get support from government to do our job, hence fund is significantly limited). I have some questions (which I haven't found the answers yet after some googlings):

1. I use 1.4 GHz iMac 8GB RAM. If I'm copying 2.5 TB video data from an external HDD (via Thunderbolt) to LTO tape (connected through ATTO Thunderink), would it be okay if I'm doing something else like using word processor, spreadsheet, and internet browsing?
2. I use HP LTO-6 Ultrium 6650. How much is the inversion transfer rate?

Thank you,
Kiki


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Neil Sadwelkar
Re: Seeking LTO / LTFS Wisdom.
on Jan 25, 2015 at 10:42:04 am

You can use BRU with LTO-6 drives from a variety of manufacturers.

An LTO-6 drive connected over mini-SAS to a SAS card sitting inside a Sonnet or OWC Thunderbolt-PCIe box, which is connected over Thunderbolt to a new MacPro, iMac, MacBook Pro, or even MacBook Air all work fine, and I've used all of these.

During a LTO-6 (or even LTO-5) tape backup with the above setup (using BRU-PE), the Mac isn't overly loaded so you can freely use it for any small task like browsing the web, checking your mail, doing your taxes. Just avoid doing something heavy like large Photoshop files, After Effects etc.

-----------------------------------
Neil Sadwelkar
neilsadwelkar.blogspot.com
twitter: fcpguru
FCP Editor, Edit systems consultant
Mumbai India


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Tim Jones
Re: Seeking LTO / LTFS Wisdom.
on Jan 29, 2015 at 4:54:47 pm

[Neil Sadwelkar] "During a LTO-6 (or even LTO-5) tape backup with the above setup (using BRU-PE), the Mac isn't overly loaded so you can freely use it for any small task like browsing the web, checking your mail, doing your taxes. Just avoid doing something heavy like large Photoshop files, After Effects etc."

Thanks, Neil. I'll add to that and state that the overhead for running BRU PE on a modern Mac is so low that we actually have customers that continue to actively edit while backups are running. Between the UI and the background threads, BRU PE utilizes an average of ~18% of a single CPU core. And, because BRU uses shared, read locks with accessing your files, it will even backup files that are in use (with very few exceptions).

Tim
--
Tim Jones
CTO - TOLIS Group, Inc.
http://www.tolisgroup.com
BRU ... because it's the RESTORE that matters!


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Kiki Muchtar
Re: Seeking LTO / LTFS Wisdom.
on Feb 14, 2015 at 6:05:06 pm

What if I choose to use LTFS instead of BRU PE? Can I also do 'basic' thing like internet browsing, checking emails, Word/Excel activities while archiving with LTO-6?

Thanks,
Kiki


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Neil Sadwelkar
Re: Seeking LTO / LTFS Wisdom.
on Feb 15, 2015 at 4:47:48 am

You do't need to use LTFS 'instead of' Bru-PE since you can write and read LTFS from within Bru-PE too.
And, like Tim commented, Bru-PE uses CPU very lightly so most any tasks while Bru is running, is just fine.

-----------------------------------
Neil Sadwelkar
neilsadwelkar.blogspot.com
twitter: fcpguru
FCP Editor, Edit systems consultant
Mumbai India


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Kiki Muchtar
Re: Seeking LTO / LTFS Wisdom.
on Feb 20, 2015 at 5:00:24 pm

Well, just a couple days ago when I was archiving, I opened PowerPoint, Word, Excel, and at some point my iMac was crashed badly. I had to press and hold the Power button to shutdown. After that, every time the archiving progress bar reached no more than 16%, the process stopped, than I couldn't eject the attached external HDD or restart.

I use iMac 1.4GHz i5 dual-core 8GB RAM.


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Tim Jones
Re: Seeking LTO / LTFS Wisdom.
on Feb 20, 2015 at 5:04:29 pm

Hi Kiki,

As Paige related, the web master and the engineers had not connected on the 3.1.10 update and that why your download was the older 3.1.9.

However, the issue that you're seeing is definitely indicative of an issue outside of BRU PE. Would you mind opening a ticket (if you haven't) at support.bru.com so that our team can help you to determine what was causing the hang that you're witnessing?

Tim
--
Tim Jones
CTO - TOLIS Group, Inc.
http://www.tolisgroup.com
BRU ... because it's the RESTORE that matters!


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Kiki Muchtar
Re: Seeking LTO / LTFS Wisdom.
on Feb 20, 2015 at 5:22:40 pm

Tim, I've opened a ticket and got answers from Eric. Will try the 3.1.10 tomorrow.

By the way, if I use a standalone HP machine, what's the benefit of using unique volume serial numbers?


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Tim Jones
Re: Seeking LTO / LTFS Wisdom.
on Feb 20, 2015 at 8:38:18 pm

[Kiki Muchtar] "By the way, if I use a standalone HP machine, what's the benefit of using unique volume serial numbers?"

The proper identification of tapes is required to locate a tape that is needed for restore. With BRU products, you just need to now the file or folder(s) that you wish to restore, BRU will tell you which tape is required to perform the restore. If you don't use unique identifiers, how would you know which tape will be needed? :)

Tim
--
Tim Jones
CTO - TOLIS Group, Inc.
http://www.tolisgroup.com
BRU ... because it's the RESTORE that matters!


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Tim Jones
Re: Seeking LTO / LTFS Wisdom.
on Mar 18, 2015 at 8:48:10 pm

Kiki,

Are you still following this thread? I've been in deep discussion with the folks at mLogic and we've got some ideas to solve both the performance and hang issues.

Tim
--
Tim Jones
CTO - TOLIS Group, Inc.
http://www.tolisgroup.com
BRU ... because it's the RESTORE that matters!


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