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Chris Fera
From Canon 5D to Film out . Apple Pro Res 422 or Pro Res 422HQ
on Jan 25, 2011 at 6:35:17 am

I shot a short film on the 5D Mark II and I am going to do a transfer to 35mm. Should I convert to Apple ProRes 422 or ProRes 422HQ? I read a few threads here and no one had a final answer. I know I am starting from an 8bit source but will I notice a difference once projected on a large screen? Also could I mix the two Apple ProRes 422 or ProRes 422 HQ on a ProRes 422HQ timeline? The reason for this would be making some of sequences, that require a better color correction, into ProRes 422 HQ and have a final output to ProRes 422 HQ. Your help would be very much appreciated thank you.


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Michael Kammes
Re: From Canon 5D to Film out . Apple Pro Res 422 or Pro Res 422HQ
on Jan 25, 2011 at 7:07:25 am

HQ will give you more latitude when color grading. It will really shine if you have some gradients; banding can sometimes appear less frequently with HQ than 422. Also, if you plan on doing motion effects, the less compression you use, the better.

This does come at a price: It takes up more space on your drive, and the renders are longer.

What about doing it the old fashion way: Cut at a low res, then online? Transcode the 5D to an edit friendly codec like ProRes Proxy or LT. This is easier for the CPU to handle and takes up less space. Then online/conform at an uber high Res - Cineform, ProRes 4:4:4:4, Uncompressed, etc. If you can afford a film out, you should be able to afford an online & conform session :)

~Michael



.: michael kammes mpse
.: senior applications editor . post workflow consultant
.: audio specialist . act fcp . acsr
.: michaelkammes.com

Hear me pontificate: http://michaelkammes.com/post-production/speaking-schedule/


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Brian DeViteri
Re: From Canon 5D to Film out . Apple Pro Res 422 or Pro Res 422HQ
on Jan 25, 2011 at 5:20:49 pm

I'd second the ProRes 4444 or Cineform codec choice for film out. Yes, the native original files do not really benefit from the extra bandwidth, but your color grading, effects, etc will all benefit from the greater flexibility.

As a side note, you may want to check out some of the RED 4k workflows to compare and learn a bit from their workflows.



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Chris Fera
Re: From Canon 5D to Film out . Apple Pro Res 422 or Pro Res 422HQ
on Jan 25, 2011 at 9:44:05 pm

Thanks a lot! This makes sense. I should have done that. However I am already half way through with editing. I started HQ but then I realized it was taking way too much space on my two 2tb hard drives... then I went down to PRORES standard and I digitized all that was left with this codec. Now is it OK to keep editing mixing the two together and then conform everything to 444 to HQ? In this case should I leave my timeline settings to HQ (the way I started) or change to standard? Thank you so much for your expert advice.


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Rafael Amador
Re: From Canon 5D to Film out . Apple Pro Res 422 or Pro Res 422HQ
on Jan 26, 2011 at 12:57:58 pm

[Michael Kammes] "HQ will give you more latitude when color grading. It will really shine if you have some gradients; banding can sometimes appear less frequently with HQ than 422"
Sorry to disagree. the only difference between all the Prores flavors (except 444) is more or less data-rate. So more or less re-compression. IMHO, Prores HQ is always the best choice. The only reason to reduce the data-rate is HDs space.

[Chris Fera] " Now is it OK to keep editing mixing the two together and then conform everything to 444 to HQ?"
Forget about 444: First, because you are starting with 420 stuff. Second, because is a codec not yet fully developed. At the moment is only useful for very specific workflows (444 cameras and so), and if you are working with RGB applications like Color, AE, etc.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Michael Kammes
Re: From Canon 5D to Film out . Apple Pro Res 422 or Pro Res 422HQ
on Jan 26, 2011 at 3:26:59 pm

Rafael:

It's OK to disagree ;)

The data rate is the result of more / less compression. HQ has less compression, thus, a major reason why the resulting file looks better.

Look at something like 14:1. Crappy looking, right? Lots of info is lost during compression to make the file size smaller. Now look at uncompressed. Pristine! Very little compression.

I highly recommend doing some tests to confirm visually, especially when blown up.

~Michael



.: michael kammes mpse
.: senior applications editor . post workflow consultant
.: audio specialist . act fcp . acsr
.: michaelkammes.com

Hear me pontificate: Speaking Schedule .


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Rafael Amador
Re: From Canon 5D to Film out . Apple Pro Res 422 or Pro Res 422HQ
on Jan 26, 2011 at 7:14:21 pm

Hi Michael,
Sorry I should have been more precise. What I wasn't happy was about bringing the term "Latitude" or "banding" here. They have no relation with the Prores flavor you chose (10b/422).
Against the opinion of many others, I think as you do, that the only reason to use other than Prores HQ, is storage or band-width constrains.
There are many people advocating that Prores HQ should be used only when going 2K or up.
This makes no sense at all. There is no relation between a compression scheme and the picture size.
Cheers,
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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alberto anzani
Re: From Canon 5D to Film out . Apple Pro Res 422 or Pro Res 422HQ
on Jan 26, 2011 at 7:51:28 pm

Hi guys,
maybe the topic could be helpful. Sorry I joined the communty today.
I shooted a movie with DVCPRO HD 1080 1280x1080 24p with panasonic and I used in Final Cut Media Manager recompressing all in AppleProres 422 HQ 1280x720 24p for editing.

Now, for a film transfer I would like to use the native quality. So, if I do the inverse, compress the sequence from Proress 720 do Dvcpro1080, I am sure that the quality of the new Master clips will be igual with the native footage? All the color correction will be lost? I tried with 30 sec and it works everything, but I can't see any difference in quality between 720 and 1080.

My question is if I have to compress (reduce) all right but if I have to put more information in the clip
enlarging the frame size, is media manager/final cut able to do really, putting back the infrmation that had discarded?

I tried with EDL, but I got problems with the media reconnect.

Could you help me? thanks a lot
alberto from Comolake


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Rafael Amador
Re: From Canon 5D to Film out . Apple Pro Res 422 or Pro Res 422HQ
on Jan 27, 2011 at 9:28:11 am

Hi Alberto,
Please post on the Final Cut Pro Forum.
Cheers,
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Chris Fera
Re: From Canon 5D to Film out . Apple Pro Res 422 or Pro Res 422HQ
on Jan 27, 2011 at 9:27:03 pm

Hi guys, thanks for all the feedback. Nice work. My question though is still unanswered. Do you think you can mix Pro Res standard and HQ on the same timeline with settings at 422HQ? I think it makes sense to go HQ with sequences that will require more manipulation in post and stay standard with the rest as I really don't notice any difference between the two once the material is screened. HQ really takes a lot of space and more time to digitize...


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Michael Kammes
Re: From Canon 5D to Film out . Apple Pro Res 422 or Pro Res 422HQ
on Jan 28, 2011 at 12:33:14 am

You can mix those flavors of Pro Res on the same timeline without any issue, yes.

~Michael



.: michael kammes mpse
.: senior applications editor . post workflow consultant
.: audio specialist . act fcp . acsr
.: michaelkammes.com

Hear me pontificate: Speaking Schedule .


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Rafael Amador
Re: From Canon 5D to Film out . Apple Pro Res 422 or Pro Res 422HQ
on Jan 28, 2011 at 1:37:09 am

[Chris Fera] " Do you think you can mix Pro Res standard and HQ on the same timeline with settings at 422HQ?"
Part of your sequence is already HQ, so make sense to set HQ for the sequence codec.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Bill Davis
Re: From Canon 5D to Film out . Apple Pro Res 422 or Pro Res 422HQ
on Jan 29, 2011 at 1:53:08 am

Not to make things more complex...

But don't forget that the CAMERA NATIVE files are already encoded in H264 at a maximum data rate of 100Mbps.

ProResLT is DESIGNED to work with data streams of that size. So in the initial ingest and straight editing of 5Dmkii footage - you gain NOTHING from working in ProRes HQ or in any timeline workflow above ProRes LT.

Others here are correct that IF you're going to do compositing of sources at higher data rates and/or extra color grading in POST - then and only then will working with additional color space help you.

Bottom line. If you shoot correctly in the first place. (proper color balance/lighting in your field production and no mixed color temperatures you wish to correct in post - plus you're happy with the original "look" of your footage) than you can comfortably enjoy the benefits of the smaller data stream of ProResLT knowing that ALL the quality of your original footage will be maintained throughout your entire workflow.

FWIW.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Conner


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Chris Fera
Re: From Canon 5D to Film out . Apple Pro Res 422 or Pro Res 422HQ
on Jan 29, 2011 at 5:58:48 am

Thank you. This was very helpful. I totally got it. I am at stardard res right now and I don't see any difference with HQ so I'll make HQ only the sequences that will require more work in post.


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Rafael Amador
Re: From Canon 5D to Film out . Apple Pro Res 422 or Pro Res 422HQ
on Jan 30, 2011 at 5:24:49 pm

[Bill Davis] "But don't forget that the CAMERA NATIVE files are already encoded in H264 at a maximum data rate of 100Mbps.

ProResLT is DESIGNED to work with data streams of that size. So in the initial ingest and straight editing of 5Dmkii footage - you gain NOTHING from working in ProRes HQ or in any timeline workflow above ProRes LT."

The only reason to transcode, is just because FC doesn't support the format.
yes, BUT, don't forget that your H264 at (100mbps) is 8b/420, while the Prores file will be 10b 422.
You need room to put this extra information (no extra quality). Going to one of the more compressed Prores flavors (LT), wouldn't help much.
Unless you are really constrained by storage space, go always to the less compressed that you can.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Bill Davis
Re: From Canon 5D to Film out . Apple Pro Res 422 or Pro Res 422HQ
on Jan 31, 2011 at 3:47:01 am

I won't argue with the general assumption that working in the finest quality that your system both supports AND for which it does not extract a performance penalty is smart.

However, particularly in video editing, I've watched for decades as otherwise smart guys I've known spent time and resources assembling system that capable of working with UNCOMPRESSED files, only to end up feeding them an exclusive diet of 3.5Mbps DV footage.

Those systems WILL maintain the maximum quality that those formats can handle and may even be superior when it comes to compositing those shots with OTHER higher rez elements. - BUT -the lessons I learned in my early days in print advertising ring true.

Once you screen a photo with an 85-line screen - no matter HOW high-rez a print you make of the ad - you will never recover ANY of the resolution that's been LOST in the translation of the original shot.

So if you shoot on a 5dmkii and the CARD FILES exit with a file that's H264 bandwidth limited to 100Mbps - That's what your VIDEO is going to STAY no matter what other raster standard you may subsequently choose to plop them on.

FWIW.

"Before speaking out ask yourself whether your words are true, whether they are respectful and whether they are needed in our civil discussions."-Justice O'Conner


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Rafael Amador
Re: From Canon 5D to Film out . Apple Pro Res 422 or Pro Res 422HQ
on Jan 31, 2011 at 10:24:24 am

[Bill Davis] "Once you screen a photo with an 85-line screen - no matter HOW high-rez a print you make of the ad - you will never recover ANY of the resolution that's been LOST in the translation of the original shot."
Hi Bill,
I agree with you about that nothing will recover the lost resolution.
I'm talking about not adding further compression, which would leads to further lost in resolution.
I'm not talking about resizing or reprocessing "8b Uncompressed RGB stills", but of transcoding from H264 to Prores, (different compression schemes) and stuff with very different properties (8b/420 vs 10b/422).
We don't add quality on this transcoding, but we add data (almost double if we would be Uncompressed). We need where to put all these extra bits.
If you blow up a PNG with Photoshop, obviously will lose resolution. That's not a reason to save it as JPEG with high compression.

[Bill Davis] "So if you shoot on a 5dmkii and the CARD FILES exit with a file that's H264 bandwidth limited to 100Mbps - That's what your VIDEO is going to STAY no matter what other raster standard you may subsequently choose to plop them on."
The only workflow that would keep the full quality from that stuff, is 8/10b Uncompress.
Even Prores HQ will add compression. A generation lost.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Johnny Smith
Re: From Canon 5D to Film out . Apple Pro Res 422 or Pro Res 422HQ
on Mar 4, 2011 at 5:00:15 pm

don't make a print. you'll never get your money back. sorry, haven't read any of the responses, maybe someone already mentioned this. unless you're independently wealthy and this is your hobby don't waste the thousands. i have 2 shorts both shot on 35mm, both played at over 50 film fests. i won awards for both. the prints are collecting dust. a short film was still semi-important maybe 7-8 years ago. those days are gone. master on hdcam or bring your laptop and spend the 3-10K you were gonna waste on the print on shooting a feature with your iphone.


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