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Frame rates and regions

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Daniel Hughes
Frame rates and regions
on Apr 11, 2011 at 2:14:41 pm

Hi everyone!

I'm a new member here, though I have followed the helpful advice given on the site for years, and have found it very useful.

I am almost finished shooting my first short motion picture (or short film), and I've used Canon EOS 550d/T2i. As I am in Scotland, a PAL region, was it wise of me to shoot the film in 24p? I had found that most movies/films are shot at 24p but doesn't this pose a problem for PAL broadcasting or DVD producing at 25p/50i?

Through some research, I did discover such a thing as NTSC Region 2, where apparently most Region 2 (IE Europe) PAL DVD players can actually play in NTSC format. This was comforting as the vice versa, PAL DVD on NTSC platforms, does not work; this must mean NTSC rules [most of] the world. Yet, this still begs the question: how are these other 24p films produced on PAL DVD's for PAL countries? Of course, it isn't all about DVDs I guess. I'm quite sure how reliable my research is either.

So I'm a pretty confused amateur.
Was I right to shoot at 24p? Or should have I used 25p?
Does it even matter?

Thanks,

Daniel


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Peter Burger
Re: Frame rates and regions
on Apr 14, 2011 at 9:29:57 am

For PAL DVDs it maybe would have been better to shoot 25p rather than 24p.

There seems to be a way to create a 24p DVD:

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/techniques-independent-production/60115-24p-dvd...

Or you could create a NTSC DVD by performing a 3:2 pull-down to 29,97 which is a common thing.

Another way is to do a PAL speedup to 25p and pitch the audio down accordingly, which is quite common as well.

There is a rather good article on wikipedia. It covers all the basics. You maybe want to take a look:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24p

Hope this helps.


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Daniel Hughes
Re: Frame rates and regions
on Apr 14, 2011 at 2:35:15 pm

I was aware of that but I think I've done something wrong, as when I go to burn a clip onto a DVD and select 24p there is this awful interlacing. I don't know if it's because the project and its footage are 23.976fps when the DVD burning seems to be exactly 24.000fps.

I'll try that speedup though, and I'll also try a speedup to 24.000 to see if the burn looks any better.

I'll also try the NTSC pull-down.

Thanks for those useful links!


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Peter Burger
Re: Frame rates and regions
on Apr 14, 2011 at 5:34:12 pm

Actually all 24p DVDs are 23,976 as well, so this shouldn't be an issue. What software are you working with?


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Daniel Hughes
Re: Frame rates and regions
on Apr 14, 2011 at 6:04:54 pm

This is with Sony Vegas, burning straight to DVD?

Here is the project's dimensions and frame rate, and when it's in burning mode:




When I select the 24p option and begin the process, it renders the video with the correct properties to then be burned to the disk, but when it does this the frame rate seems to be exactly 24.000p, and there is this horrific flickery interlacing.

Gah! It's quite frustrating! Although if I can't seem to solve it or find a solution I guess I could just settle with the NTSC 60i thing...


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Frame rates and regions
on Apr 14, 2011 at 7:19:27 pm

It looks like Vegas is changing the gamma of your footage. I'd nose around for a setting... or ask on the vegas forum.

Here are some questions for you:
Have you ever watched a Hollywood movie on DVD? You have?
Did you know that there's a 99.99% percent chance that the frame rate of that DVD is 23.976, and that your DVD player knows how play it on a PAL TV set?

Once you get the gamma issue settled, I don't think you have much to worry about.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Daniel Hughes
Re: Frame rates and regions
on Apr 14, 2011 at 9:33:30 pm

Hi Dave.

I can't quite understand how gamma affects frame rate. I tried burning a clip having changed the compositing gamma to 1 (linear), and I think it's better, but I'm not quite sure. I just grabbed the footage in the screenshot randomly but it probably wasn't the best for testing the movement and flickering. I'm trying again with some more kinetic footage as we speak...

Also, could you please explain gamma in the context of frame rates etc?
I've only ever known it to be to do with luminance in colour correction!

Thanks,

Daniel


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Frame rates and regions
on Apr 14, 2011 at 10:11:09 pm

[Daniel Hughes] "I can't quite understand how gamma affects frame rate"

It doesn't -- it's an additional issue you're having in vegas, and you have to sort it out. Go ask the vegas folks; I'm a Final Cut Pro guy.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Daniel Hughes
Re: Frame rates and regions
on Apr 14, 2011 at 10:12:40 pm

Sometimes I wish I was a mac owner.
Thanks for your time anyway!

Daniel Hughes
Amateur Writer, Director,
Director of Photography
United Kingdom


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Frame rates and regions
on Apr 14, 2011 at 10:21:48 pm

Aaaahhh, a computer's a computer. Once you get used to one type, the competing type doesn't look as good as it once did.

Besides, remember that now there's Adobe Production Premium CS5 for Windows machines -- your basic post-production facility in a box. It doesn't hurt that it includes industry-standard software like After Effects, Photoshop and Illustrator, either.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Daniel Hughes
Re: Frame rates and regions
on Apr 14, 2011 at 9:51:03 pm

Oh goodness. I grabbed some footage with more movement and it doesn't seem to have worked :(


In this piece of footage the camera is panning left to right.

So Tools > Burn Disc > DVD... and I'm given a window with a drop down list and six options. They are of frame rates 50i, 60i or 24p, with a mixture of PAL, NTSC and 16:9 and 4:3, all spread across six combined options. So I choose '720x480-24p - 16:9 (NTSC)'.
I choose my drive, and hit 'OK'. The video begins to render:



I have a feeling I'm doing something stupidly wrong... but that's what it looks like. And that's what the burned DVD looks like on other players :(

Thanks anyway for your comments, I'll try to investigate this further and probably consult the vegas forum!


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Peter Burger
Re: Frame rates and regions
on Apr 15, 2011 at 7:48:40 am

Never used Vegas myself before (although it came for free with my camera), so like Dave said, ask in the Vegas forum. Maybe someone there can help.

All the best!


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