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5D III - Is it me? Am I missing something?

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Nick Griffin
5D III - Is it me? Am I missing something?
on Jun 5, 2014 at 6:52:53 pm

For the past couple of weeks I've been playing around with a 5D III while continuing to use our XDCam for the real work. As I'm sure most pros can understand one wants to be fairly familiar with the ins and outs of any new gear before taking it out on a gig.

OK, with that said, one thing that has really stuck out for me from the beginning and through a few tests is the bad smearing on pans. Horizontal motion going through the frame doesn't look great, but pans are really soft. Oddly enough tilts (vertical motion) does not seem to have the same problem and remains fairly sharp throughout.

I've tried different shutter speeds using the Time Value setting and a 500th of a second looks about the same as a 60th. So what gives? Am I missing something basic, or is it just the way it is with this camera?

Second question: Any "ideal" settings for shooting video in terms of ISO under different conditions? Put another way, what's the highest I can go before noise becomes obvious? On a regular camera I seldom move off unity gain and even then I try to keep use of the +9 setting to a minimum and only when really needed.

Thanx for any and all responses.


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Warren Eig
Re: 5D III - Is it me? Am I missing something?
on Jun 6, 2014 at 3:56:33 pm

Nick,

I have not seen these issues when shooting with Canon's native 1.23 firmware or with Magic Lantern 1.23 firmware. The latter lets you shoot 14bit uncompressed raw, no h.264 compression.

If you are setting up the camera to shoot 23.976, make sure you are in Manual (M) mode and set the shutter speed to 1/50 of a sec, this is closest to 1/48 with a shutter angle of about 178 degrees.

ISO should be set in multiples of 160. Use: 160, 320, 640, 1250 (as there is no 1280). (160 and its multiples look the "cleanest" because its really a native ISO rating with the exposure pulled down, which hides more of the digital noise.) I find that 640 seems to be the native ISO when shooting video mode.

If you pan on something too close you will see the judder. This is an anomaly of 24p. You would see the same thing if shooting 35mm in a Panavision camera. Just make sure you are at the optimal speed when Panning to avoid this short fall or have something cross the frame as you follow it.

Warren Eig
O 310-470-0905


email: warren@babyboompictures.com
website: http://www.BabyBoomPictures.com


REEL: http://www.babyboompictures.com/BabyBoomPictures/Reels.html


For Camera Accessories - Monitors and Batteries
website: http://www.EigRig.com



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Nick Griffin
Re: 5D III - Is it me? Am I missing something?
on Jun 6, 2014 at 4:07:56 pm

Thanx, Warren! I've been shooting in 60i. Shouldn't that make the judder better (less) rather than worse (more pronounced)? I'm going more for the look that will cut well with our regular camera which is 60i.

Also, the camera is only a couple of weeks old, should it not already have the latest firmware?


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Warren Eig
Re: 5D III - Is it me? Am I missing something?
on Jun 6, 2014 at 4:17:17 pm

Nick,

It should have the latest firmware of 1.2.3. You can check in the menus. So you want to set your camera to 29.97 or 30 NTSC 60i correct? Set the HDMI frame rate to 60i.

Warren Eig
O 310-470-0905


email: warren@babyboompictures.com
website: http://www.BabyBoomPictures.com


REEL: http://www.babyboompictures.com/BabyBoomPictures/Reels.html


For Camera Accessories - Monitors and Batteries
website: http://www.EigRig.com



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Nick Griffin
Re: 5D III - Is it me? Am I missing something?
on Jun 6, 2014 at 5:20:29 pm

Again, thanx Warren. That's how I have it set. Perhaps what I'm seeing is a camera that's not meant to be panned?

You're ISO speed advice was very valuable.


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Warren Eig
Re: 5D III - Is it me? Am I missing something?
on Jun 6, 2014 at 5:32:02 pm

Nick,

I pan and don't have this problem. I am also not shooting interlaced as you are. Can you go to a camera store and try to see if you get the same results with a demo? If you don't, if could be something with your camera. What shutter speed are you setting you camera to? 1/120 (for 60i or 59.94) or 1/60 (for 30p or 29.97)?

Warren Eig
O 310-470-0905


email: warren@babyboompictures.com
website: http://www.BabyBoomPictures.com


REEL: http://www.babyboompictures.com/BabyBoomPictures/Reels.html


For Camera Accessories - Monitors and Batteries
website: http://www.EigRig.com



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Nick Griffin
Re: 5D III - Is it me? Am I missing something?
on Jun 6, 2014 at 5:36:30 pm

I thought I had tried them in my attempt to go from a 60th to 500th. I will spend more time over the weekend experimenting. Your time and input are greatly appreciated.


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Devinda Fernando
Re: 5D III - Is it me? Am I missing something?
on Jun 7, 2014 at 7:23:12 am

Hi Nick,

I noticed you mentioned that the 5D MKIII using the Magic Lantern firmware allows you to shoot 14 Bit 2K raw footage... am I to assume then that the 5D MKIII Raw footage is of higher quality than the Sony NEX-FS700 that records 12 Bit 2K Raw footage using the Odyssey 7Q Monitor/Recorder?


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Nick Griffin
Re: 5D III - Is it me? Am I missing something?
on Jun 7, 2014 at 12:48:21 pm

[Devinda Fernando] "I noticed you mentioned that the 5D MKIII using the Magic Lantern firmware allows you to shoot 14 Bit 2K raw footage"

That wasn't me. It was Warren Eig. I'm a newbee trying to learn the ins and outs of the 5D III because I've seen so many others doing nice stuff with it.


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Warren Eig
Re: 5D III - Is it me? Am I missing something?
on Jun 7, 2014 at 5:26:24 pm

Devinda,

The 5D Mark iii with ML shoots 1920x1080 and various crop modes that are close to 2K. Some call 1920x1080 2K, others call it HD. I haven't used the Sony NEX-FS700, but the 5D is a full frame camera sensor, so resolution should be higher than an APC sized sensor.

Warren Eig
O 310-470-0905


email: warren@babyboompictures.com
website: http://www.BabyBoomPictures.com


REEL: http://www.babyboompictures.com/BabyBoomPictures/Reels.html


For Camera Accessories - Monitors and Batteries
website: http://www.EigRig.com



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Devinda Fernando
Re: 5D III - Is it me? Am I missing something?
on Jun 7, 2014 at 6:05:43 pm

Hi Warren, thanks for the reply. I saw the reviews of the Magic Lantern firmware and I guess what I mean by 2K is actually HD (1080 x 1920) which is what I believe the Sony FS700 also shoots. That is in terms of Frame Size. The Sony FS700 Sensor is also full frame 35mm, so unless one records more "detail per square inch" so to speak, they would both be even on that aspect, right?

But is the quality of the 5D better than the Sony? - and by that I mean is it a higher resolution, or a better color space recording? I'm going to assume that 14 Bit is better than 12 bit but was hoping someone had actually used these two formats in a real life situation and could testify from experience? I would love to test it out still waiting for my Sony to arrive, I currently shoot with a 5D MK3 but I really don't see much of a difference between the quality of normal H.264 footage converted to Apple Pro Res and 2K Raw using the Magic Lantern firmware?


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Warren Eig
Re: 5D III - Is it me? Am I missing something?
on Jun 7, 2014 at 6:13:23 pm

The 5D sensor is full frame 35mm still negative about the size of Vistavison. the FS700 is super 35mm about the size of an APC sensor.

ProRes is 10bit, much better than the highly compressed h.264. YOu are better off shooting ProRes than h.264.

I'm in Los Angeles. If you are in the same city, I'd be more than happy to do a side by side comparison with you.
YOu should see a hugh difference shooting Raw 14bit over shooting HDMI out to Prores capture. The HDMI out of the 5D is 8bit.

Warren Eig
O 310-470-0905


email: warren@babyboompictures.com
website: http://www.BabyBoomPictures.com


REEL: http://www.babyboompictures.com/BabyBoomPictures/Reels.html


For Camera Accessories - Monitors and Batteries
website: http://www.EigRig.com



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Devinda Fernando
Re: 5D III - Is it me? Am I missing something?
on Jun 8, 2014 at 5:54:28 am

*** The 5D sensor is full frame 35mm still negative about the size of Vistavison. the FS700 is super 35mm about the size of an APC sensor. ***

Thanks for clearing that up Warren. Is that a rule-of-thumb for larger sensors, or could a smaller sensor deliver a better quality image if it was the better technology?

I guess my only question further on that is whether the footage captured on the larger sensor (5D) is better quality - and in what way?... perhaps better image quality under higher ISOs/and Low light settings, because its seems illogical that if the output footage of either Sensor are both 1080p HD H.264, that they would differ on aspects like lines of resolution?

I totally understand about the difference between 8 Bit H.264 HD and Pro Res and even Raw. I guess my confusion still lies with whether 2K Raw comes in different 'flavors' - i.e. is there a 10 Bit Raw, a 12 bit Raw, 14 bit Raw etc...?

Would love to meet up and do a side by side, but unfortunately I'm literally on the other side of the world from you in Sri Lanka. I shoot mostly on the 5D MKIII which has become the industry standard in this country, but just ordered the Sony FS700 with the Odyssey 7Q for 2K Raw recording. Its coming from Singapore so its going to take a couple of months since it has to be firmware and hardware upgraded by the Sony agent there since we have no Sony Agent in Sri Lanka :( .

I definitely plan on doing some test shots with the FS700 - especially the Slo-mo capabilities and will post them on youtube when I get the chance.


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Devinda Fernando
Re: 5D III - Is it me? Am I missing something?
on Jun 8, 2014 at 6:33:22 am

***while continuing to use our XDCam for the real work.***

When you say XDCAM do you have a Sony Ex3? I have a couple of those and the 5D MK3 footage is far superior to the EX3 footage. With the exception of the annoying moire effect (aliasing) on the 5D, I'd say I'd use that for pretty much every professional shoot over the EX3.

*** I've tried different shutter speeds using the Time Value setting and a 500th of a second looks about the same as a 60th. So what gives? Am I missing something basic, or is it just the way it is with this camera? ***

As someone who uses a 5DMK3 intensively I have always found a huge difference in shutter speeds 50/60 and 500! For one thing you should notice the difference in the darkness of the image when on 500 Shutter speed when compared to 50 or 60?

*** Any "ideal" settings for shooting video in terms of ISO under different conditions? ***

Personally I try to keep it ISO 640 or under. In editing you can really push the 640 or less footage much more than anything higher. This means I have to somehow light the scene to bring the exterior conditions to that 640 ISO. If no additional light is available I then increase past 640 ISO as a last resort. I usually choose not to shoot anything ISO 2500 or more... (even though the camera can go to ISO 12,500). After 2500 there is just too much noise to be acceptable for the work I do.

For Green Screen and chroma keying I try to have lighting conditions bright enough to shoot at ISO 160, but again if not possible I still try to keep it at 640 or under.


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Nick Griffin
Re: 5D III - Is it me? Am I missing something?
on Jun 8, 2014 at 12:52:41 pm

[Devinda Fernando] "When you say XDCAM do you have a Sony Ex3?"

No. It's a several years old Sony Cinealta PDW-F350 with a 3.3mm wide angle zoom. Maybe I'm just used to its look, but it seems to handle motion better. Wonder if it would help if I went under settings on the 5DIII and reduced the sharpness setting? I love the image quality the 5D III produces on static shots so I wouldn't want to compromise that.


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Devinda Fernando
Re: 5D III - Is it me? Am I missing something?
on Jun 8, 2014 at 1:34:02 pm

Oh wow! Then you can't even compare the two in that case... the PDW-F350 is a far superior camera to the 5D Mk II DSLR and that reflects in the huge price difference between the two.


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Nick Griffin
Re: 5D III - Is it me? Am I missing something?
on Jun 8, 2014 at 2:20:49 pm

Okay I can easily understand how 24 (or 25) Progressive looks very different from 60 Interlaced, but what I can't understand is how 60i from the 5DIII looks so different, in terms of motion, than the XDCam at 60i. I will say that thanks to Warren's advice to shoot at a 60th of a second I'm getting much less 'judder,' but still see some.


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Bob Dix
Re: 5D III - Is it me? Am I missing something?
on Jun 12, 2014 at 6:38:26 am
Last Edited By Bob Dix on Jun 12, 2014 at 8:18:40 am

Hi Nick,

Well we have used two Canon 5D Mark II's HDV at 1920 x 1080p and have never had that problem OVER 4 YEARS.. I suggest, however, that you buy one of their Professional EF Stabilized lens like the 70-200mm which has a special horizontal stabilizer (in Australia).We operate at 1/60 sec shutter speed at 25fps never 24fps. We normally use the 35-135 EF IS f3.5 lens because of it's light weight, it is a consumer type lens and never a panning issue? But, pan very slowly ######

Freelance Imaging & Video
AUSTRALIA


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