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Using two recorders - one as backup

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Peter Robertson
Using two recorders - one as backup
on Dec 23, 2015 at 3:59:44 pm

Hi
Now that I have 2 recorders (Busman modded DR680 and a Zoom F8) I would like to use the DR680 as a backup for concert recordings. Can I use some splitter mic cable to achieve this or do I need separate mics for the 2 recorders? My mics are mostly Line-Audio and need phantom power.
What cables are suitable and what are the problems involved?
Many thanks
Peter


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Ty Ford
Re: Using two recorders - one as backup
on Dec 23, 2015 at 4:27:24 pm
Last Edited By Ty Ford on Dec 23, 2015 at 4:34:36 pm

Hello Peter and welcome to the Cow Audio Forum.

Mic splitters may be used. The better ones have transformers to isolate the recorders from each other and keep the impedance seen by the mics correctly.

Regards,

Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum Leader

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford's Blog


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Peter Robertson
Re: Using two recorders - one as backup
on Dec 23, 2015 at 4:34:56 pm
Last Edited By Peter Robertson on Dec 23, 2015 at 4:39:30 pm

Hi Ty
Wonderful to have such a prompt response.
All my mics need phantom power. I am recording live classical orchestral music - so no sound board line output. You recommend ones with transformer coupling - this would be 1 transformer to 1 recorder and the other feed direct to the other recorder to transfer the 48V - yes?
Many thanks
Peter
PS. Line-Audio is the name of the Swedish mic company


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Ty Ford
Re: Using two recorders - one as backup
on Dec 23, 2015 at 6:35:27 pm
Last Edited By Ty Ford on Dec 23, 2015 at 6:40:20 pm

Peter,

How many mics, please?

Here's a useful link. A lot depends on how well your mics tolerate impedance differences.

http://whirlwindusa.com/support/tech-articles/microphone-splitters/

Regards,

Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum Leader

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford's Blog


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Peter Robertson
Re: Using two recorders - one as backup
on Dec 23, 2015 at 7:22:31 pm
Last Edited By Peter Robertson on Dec 23, 2015 at 7:23:41 pm

Hi Ty
I will probable have about 6 mics for the main recording.
I have been looking at a few Tony Faulkner videos and he has a main system plus 2 separate and independent backups.
Mic transformers are expensive so I think I will just take an additional ORTF stereo pair for the backup.
Wonderful to have chatted with you.
Best regards and happy holidays
Peter


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Ty Ford
Re: Using two recorders - one as backup
on Dec 23, 2015 at 8:22:37 pm

Peter,

I have done a flute choir with one pair of Schoeps CMC641 in coincident X/Y and a pair of Neumann TLM 103 as a spaced pair outside the X/Y to four tracks of my Sound Devices 664. I forget, but I probably panned them full left/right. The 664 also does isos and a stereo mix. I seem to recall the stereo mix worked very well as is (was).

Here's an mp3 of one of those: https://www.dropbox.com/s/d1p25xyai506xkc/Baltimore%20Flute%20Choir.mp3?dl=...

Best of luck with your recording and please do stop back and let us know what you learned.

Regards,

Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum Leader

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford's Blog


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Peter Robertson
Re: Using two recorders - one as backup
on Dec 23, 2015 at 8:29:59 pm

That sounds like a Faulkner phased array.
Cheers
Peter


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Ty Ford
Re: Using two recorders - one as backup
on Dec 23, 2015 at 9:06:54 pm

Peter,

My description or the file itself?

I was interested in what the combination would sound like. the TLM 103 were about 2.5 feet either side of the CMC641. I hadn't heard of Faulkner. I sort of sussed it out and decided to try it on one of our recordings. When I got the files back in the studio and played them over the Event Opals, I was very pleased with the mixed results. The CMC641 are very tight. The TLM103 are very wide.

Regards,

Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum Leader

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford's Blog


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Bruce Watson
Re: Using two recorders - one as backup
on Dec 23, 2015 at 11:01:41 pm

[Peter Robertson] "That sounds like a Faulkner phased array."

It isn't really. Faulkner describes it like this: "The second array consists of a wide stereo bar with omnis spaced at around 67cms, and a pair of directional mics in between them spaced at around 47cms apart (both sets with the mics angled outwards)...For these arrays I normally use Schoeps CCM series or Rode NT6 mics. When using the Schoeps I would use CCM2H omnis and CCM21 subcardioids. When using the Rodes I would use their regular omni capsules on the outside and their regular cardioids in between." His full post is post #14 of this Gearslutz thread:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-locatio...

Faulkner's writings and postings on the subject seem to be just this specific, and he doesn't mention (that I know of) using anything in the middle besides his 47cm spaced sub-cards. So no XY, M/S, ORTF, etc. in the middle for Mr. Faulkner. Other people on Gearslutz do use all kinds of things as the middle pair and they get a wide range of results. But they don't call what they are doing a Faulkner Phased Array for obvious reasons.

But this has little to do with your original question of using a second recorder for backup. If you use one recorder for one pair of mics, and another recorder for the second pair, you still don't have redundancy. What you have, is a second point of view. If you do this with a Faulkner Phased Array, you've got something that's suboptimal, since the placement of the array is suboptimal for either individual pair -- by design. Faulkner's intent is to use both pairs in the mix. If you loose one pair, you loose the mix.

If you're going to use another recorder for backup, you should either use really good mic splitters, or you should use a backup mic array that's optimally placed.

If you're really serious about backup, you'd want to back up everything -- that is, two mics at every mic placement, separate cables, separate stage boxes and snakes, separate mic preamps and AD, separate recorders. But who is really willing to double their equipment costs and more than double their setup and tear down costs for backup purposes? The only time this would seriously matter is during live broadcasts, and this is the time that they won't let you do it, because of the visuals. So... it's very seldom done.


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Ty Ford
Re: Using two recorders - one as backup
on Dec 24, 2015 at 1:13:47 am
Last Edited By Ty Ford on Dec 24, 2015 at 1:14:26 am

Thanks Bruce,

Odd. What I came up with for the Faulkner phased array included two parallel Figure of Eight mics, spaced and aimed at the sound source.

Wonder why..

Regards,

Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum Leader

PS: nice sheep!

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford's Blog


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Bruce Watson
Re: Using two recorders - one as backup
on Dec 24, 2015 at 1:24:27 pm

[Ty Ford] "Odd. What I came up with for the Faulkner phased array included two parallel Figure of Eight mics, spaced and aimed at the sound source."

Some call his AB eights "Faulkner phased array". He also uses a different array using four mics with aligned capsules. He says he didn't name either array, that other people apply names. This of course confuses people; at least it confuses me. It would be nice to have a uniform naming convention, but that's probably asking a lot considering the vast number of microphone techniques in use every day. Just look at all the things people do under the name "Decca Tree" for example.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-locatio...

Faulkner's post #9 from the above link is one place he's posted about the names.


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Ty Ford
Re: Using two recorders - one as backup
on Dec 24, 2015 at 4:08:21 pm

Bruce,

Thanks for that rabbit hole! :)

Is it still 2015?

Good info!

Regards,

Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum Leader

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford's Blog


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