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Sanken cs3e vs Schoeps 641

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Tom Smith
Sanken cs3e vs Schoeps 641
on Nov 29, 2015 at 12:15:10 am

I'm looking for best mic for dialogue. Interview type shots so microphone can always be within 2 feet. Mainly indoor, some outdoor.

Which one of these two will give the best clean sound? But also it is important which will make a slightly monotonous male voice sound better. Maybe have a lot of spunk to the highs while also being able to keep the nice deep pitch of the monotonous voice. I'm not an audio person so I don't really know the proper terms for any of this :P

Also (just hypothetically) if in the future I wanted to do a scene with moving subjects and hired a boom operator, would the Schoeps perform well or would I need a shotgun?


They will be hooked up to JuicedLink which goes directly into dslr.

I have cos-11 for lav currently.



-Thanks


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Bruce Watson
Re: Sanken cs3e vs Schoeps 641
on Nov 29, 2015 at 2:26:02 pm

The Sanken cs3e is a shotgun mic. The Schoeps CMC6-mk41 is a hypercardioid. You can't easily compare them; it's like apples and oranges.

People tend to default to hypers for interior work, especially if that work is in existing buildings (as opposed to purpose built sound stages). Hypers tend to perform better in the face of rapid first reflections. That is, when you are close to walls and/or ceilings, which is quite likely in rooms with "standard" 8' ceilings. Using shotgun mics in the same interiors can be problematic because of the way shotgun mics use interference tubes -- the rapid first reflections off the nearby surfaces interfere with the direct sound from the speaker's mouth resulting in comb filtering artifacts. IOW, it sounds pretty bad, and can't be fixed in post.

People tend to default to shotguns for exterior work, especially if that work is away from reflective surfaces such as building walls. This is where shotgun mics shine.

Given that you're using JuicedLink electronics and recording to a DSLR, you aren't getting Hollywood level sound anyway. IOW, your two mic choices are overkill, the rest of your system isn't up to that level of performance. You could upgrade to a low end recorder like the Tascam DR60mkII, or the DR70. This would improve the level of recording and let you hear more of what these mics can really do, for not much money. Alternately, you could look at mics like the AT4053b or the Audix SCX1-HC (both hypercardioids) which are favorites of the indy movie crowd for interior dialog work. You could then perhaps find a used Sennheiser MKH 416 shotgun for exteriors, also a favorite of the indy movie crowd.

But if you really really really want just the one mic, and I have to choose between the two you've offered, I pick the Schoeps mk41.


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Ty Ford
Re: Sanken cs3e vs Schoeps 641
on Nov 29, 2015 at 3:29:05 pm
Last Edited By Ty Ford on Nov 29, 2015 at 3:55:28 pm

Hi Tom and welcome to the Cow Audio Forum.

First, Whoa! The Sanken CS3e LOOKS like a shotgun, but it is decidedly not a shotgun. (Sorry Bruce)

A shotgun has the mic element at the bottom of the interference tube. That's the long tube with slots on the side.

The CS3e has the mic element at the tip of the mic and behind it are two other capsules that are under the slotted tube portion of the body. It uses the signal from the side capsules in its attempt to narrow the pattern. It's sort of a Franken-Mic. Very functional, but it does not function the same as a true shotgun.

The last time we tried a CS3e here it was slightly noisier than the CMC641. We were in my studio which is very quiet. In the street, you'd probably not be able to hear the noise.

The Schoeps CMC641 is a super cardioid, plain and simple. I think you'll like it. I own two. I use mine inside and outside (with wind gear). The DPA 4018 also deserves your attention. Here's my review of the DPA 4017 and 4018 with audio/video samples. The 4018-C makes a nice package and is very light and small.

http://tyfordaudiovideo.blogspot.com/2015/09/dpa-boom-mics-4017-and-4018-wi...

Regards,

Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum Leader

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford's Blog


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Bruce Watson
Re: Sanken cs3e vs Schoeps 641
on Nov 29, 2015 at 10:50:32 pm

[Ty Ford] "The Sanken CS3e LOOKS like a shotgun, but it is decidedly not a shotgun. (Sorry Bruce)

A shotgun has the mic element at the bottom of the interference tube. That's the long tube with slots on the side.

The CS3e has the mic element at the tip of the mic and behind it are two other capsules that are under the slotted tube portion of the body. It uses the signal from the side capsules in its attempt to narrow the pattern. It's sort of a Franken-Mic."


My bad, I believe you. In my defense (if that's possible) I was rushed and took B&H's description:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/406096-REG/Sanken_CS_3E_CS_3E_Short_S...

at face value. Didn't take the time to actually read up on it, and I've never used one. All the discussions I've read over the years, most everyone calls it a shotgun mic, and people tend to use it like a shotgun mic (for exterior booming).

That said, I don't think the rest of what I wrote was too far off.


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Ty Ford
Re: Sanken cs3e vs Schoeps 641
on Nov 29, 2015 at 11:03:12 pm

No worries, Bruce. You are a highly respected and valued member of this community/forum.

It's a very innovative design. The first CS3 had a problem that was fixed with the CS3e.

Lots of pros I know have made the same mistake. See a slotty tube, think it's an interference tube shotgun.

Had I not reviewed it some years back, I'd probably would never have known.

Here's that review: https://www.dropbox.com/s/wyg1l3hm0ddz5sd/Sanken_CS-3_Short%20Shotgun.txt?d...

Regards,

Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum Leader

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford's Blog


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Tom Smith
Re: Sanken cs3e vs Schoeps 641
on Nov 29, 2015 at 3:57:18 pm
Last Edited By Tom Smith on Nov 29, 2015 at 5:47:51 pm

Alright, thanks.

Are there any systems that will sync straight to the camera to get good sound?

I was checking out the dr60/70 and it says records to both dr60 and camera, so is it very simple to sync this with a plugin on premiere or something?

Are there other better, more expensive options that will do the same thing as dr60 (I prefer portable in case I want to film outside, I don't need more than 2 mic inputs just want best clean sound possible, up to 1k usd)? I bought the h4n before the JuicedLink to use with Ntg2 but the h4n had too much noise and I returned it.


-From the samples I heard I think I will be going with the Schoeps.


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Ty Ford
Re: Sanken cs3e vs Schoeps 641
on Nov 29, 2015 at 8:08:10 pm

Tom,

Syncing is relatively easy, but still requires some attention to detail. Using Pluraleyes on a computer with good video editing software helps.

The best 2-track recorder would be a Sound Devices 702-T.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/429564-REG/Sound_Devices_702T_702T_Hi...

Here's one on JW, but I don't know if it's still for sale.

http://jwsoundgroup.net/index.php?/topic/24157-fs-sd-702t-recorder-mint-con...

Regards,

Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum Leader

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford's Blog


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Bruce Watson
Re: Sanken cs3e vs Schoeps 641
on Nov 29, 2015 at 11:15:05 pm

[Tom Smith] "Are there any systems that will sync straight to the camera to get good sound?"

Syncing sound to picture is a pretty easy and simple process. Hollywood has been using a clapper board (clapper sticks, slate, etc.) for decades for this purpose. We've now got software like plural eyes that can automate much of the process in your NLE.

That said, if you really want to record sound via the camera, Beachtek has some XLR interfaces that feed the camera's mic-in, and if you want better there's always the Sound Devices MixPre-D (field mixer, not a recorder). It has excellent limiters, excellent preamps, and a specific output for DSLR cameras (unbalanced mic-level out). It even has a bracket for attaching it underneath your camera to make mixer and camera and single unit.

If you want a mixer/recorder from SD, there's always the SD 633 (way more money). And you can always go the full on recorder, with something like the new Zoom F8 (more inputs than you need, but that's how it comes), or the somewhat higher quality (but way more expensive) SD recorders up to and including the SD 788T. Not to mention recorders from Marantz (PMD 661 mk2), Edirol/Roland (R-44), Tascam (DR-680), Fostex (FR-2 LE), and many many more.

The problem with recording in the camera with a DSLR is that typically the DSLR's are optimized for picture (that's what they are selling). Audio is an afterthought, which almost always means cheap chips and automation you can't turn off (think automatic gain control). None of the stand alone recorders have these problems as their only purpose is to record audio.

Finally, I own and use a MixPre-D and the Schoeps mics. First rate products.


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Ty Ford
Re: Sanken cs3e vs Schoeps 641
on Nov 30, 2015 at 1:54:22 am

The Canon 5D Mk iii (and perhaps others that may have come out after that, but I don't know for sure.) does record 16-bit, 48 kHz audio that's OK. Not amazing, but usable in most situations. The trick is to only open the camera audio gain one click and feed enough level from a mixer to get a good level on the cameras audio meter.

Regards,

Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum Leader

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford's Blog


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Tom Smith
Re: Sanken cs3e vs Schoeps 641
on Nov 30, 2015 at 5:28:21 am
Last Edited By Tom Smith on Nov 30, 2015 at 5:35:10 am

Ok, so for a high quality mic like the Schoeps will the recorder always have better sound? So for example if comparing the Tascam 70d with the SD Mixpre D directly to dslr, which would have higher quality sound?


You said the JuicedLink I have would not be able to get the full potential of the high quality microphone and the MixPre would be much better. I watched the video with ntg2 to dslr using these two and they seemed about the same, but that is a cheap microphone. Why is it different with a better microphone?

Finally, if the Tascam 70d would get better sound than mixpre D straight to dslr, would the Zoom f8, Tascam dr-680dmkii, Edirol r44 be way ahead of the Tascam 70d? I don't have the budget to spend 2k+ for Sound Devices now and would prefer 70d price (and that it records to dslr for reference) if the other options don't give the 700 dollar difference in sound.


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Ty Ford
Re: Sanken cs3e vs Schoeps 641
on Nov 30, 2015 at 1:38:51 pm

Hi Tom,

As with most things in the material world, your results will only be as strong as the weakest link.

When you say you watched the videos, were you in a studio with good monitors?

Was this on Youtube, Vimeo or one of the other online video services?

In the straight to DSLR thought. Your weakest link there would likely be the DSLR, regardless of what mic you choose or what preamp. Maybe not, but probably.

The there's the whole issue of assessing what you're listening to. I'm not being condescending here, I'm just putting it out there that most people have to be taught the differences in sound quality. After you've learned what to listen for, you can increasingly differentiate the bad from the good and learn what to do to get more good than bad. A big part of this has nothing to do with equipment or specs. It has to do with how you use the tools.

"Don't have the budget" is code for "I don't want to spend." If you expect to be doing this for a living or even a serious hobby, getting professional tools is the way to go. They will last longer and allow you to sound better, presuming your ability to learn how to capture the best sound continues to improve.

Good audio is not plug and play.

Regards,

Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum Leader

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford's Blog


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Tom Smith
Re: Sanken cs3e vs Schoeps 641
on Nov 30, 2015 at 2:06:17 pm

Ok Ty, I understand what you are saying. Down the road I can always upgrade to the better recorder like Sound Devices 702 after I finish buying studio equipment (lighting, bass traps, new lenses, etc.).

For now, considering the microphone is in the same placement, would you recommend the $1000+ for the Sound Devices Mixpre D which will go straight into a DSLR with bad audio (but gain turned 1 level below very bottom, mainly using preamp) or the $170-250 Tascam 60/70d which will record audio itself?


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Ty Ford
Re: Sanken cs3e vs Schoeps 641
on Nov 30, 2015 at 4:54:06 pm

Tom,

I have no way of knowing what your DSLR sounds like. I only know the 5D Mk iii can record OK audio.

If it will do that properly, I'd go right to the camera with a MixPre-D. Your postproduction life will be easier.

That way you begin to build a proper audio front end.

If your camera will not record good audio, then you have no choice but to go another way.

Regards,

Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum Leader

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford's Blog


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Tom Smith
Re: Sanken cs3e vs Schoeps 641
on Nov 30, 2015 at 6:36:27 pm

Ok thanks, I think I'll go with the MixPre D then unless anyone else has tried the two. The camera I have now is a t3i btw, later I will upgrade to 5dmkIII or Blackmagic production/cinema/ursa mini.


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Tom Smith
Re: Sanken cs3e vs Schoeps 641
on Dec 1, 2015 at 10:25:58 am

Do people put the microphone straight into Sound Devices 702 or is it better to put it into MixPre D into 702?


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Ty Ford
Re: Sanken cs3e vs Schoeps 641
on Dec 1, 2015 at 10:07:02 pm

Hi Tom,

You can certainly go from mic to 702T. It also can supply Phantom Power to mics that require that.

More info here:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/429564-REG/Sound_Devices_702T_702T_Hi...

Regards,

Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum Leader

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford's Blog


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