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shot gun suggestions

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Craig Alan
shot gun suggestions
on Nov 17, 2014 at 5:55:49 pm

would a shotgun give better results than our AT 4053 for outdoor shoots?

we have
Sennheiser ME66/K6 - Super-Cardioid Mic Capsule with K6 Kit

But I find out AT 4053 sounds better.

So can you recommend the next price point for a good boom or suggest we stay with the at 4053 with a blimp.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Canon 5D Mark III/70D, Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV40, Sony Z7U/VX2000/PD170; FCP 6 certified; FCP X write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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Richard Crowley
Re: shot gun suggestions
on Nov 17, 2014 at 6:47:30 pm

You say: "AT 4053 sounds better", but you give no definition for what you mean by "better". We would be shooting in the dark attempting any response because we don't know what the presenting symptom is. You wouldn't go to the doctor and simply say: "I'm not felling well."

By "better" do you mean directionality? sensitivity? "reach"? self-noise? ambient rejection? frequency response? Help us out here.


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Craig Alan
Re: shot gun suggestions
on Nov 17, 2014 at 8:13:47 pm

Hmmm. I find the AT 4053 seems to pick up the intended speaker more clearly even if you can hear back ground noise, seems like a more natural sounding voices and we've had problems with the shot guns with static and handling noise.

there may be lots of reasons for all this so really lets just edit the question to ask will a different type of mike than the AT 4053 be better for outdoor shoots and if so what would you suggest up to about $1200.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Canon 5D Mark III/70D, Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV40, Sony Z7U/VX2000/PD170; FCP 6 certified; FCP X write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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Ty Ford
Re: shot gun suggestions
on Nov 17, 2014 at 10:32:52 pm

Hello Craig,

the 4053b is hard to beat for the price point.

Here's what I'd do, rent a Schoeps CMIT. Not the SuperCMIT, just the CMIT.

If it floats your boat then you know what you have to do; grin and bear it and save up.

The ME66 is a student level mic. Always has been. It works, but it's edgy, nasty and noisy. For the price it's a great deal.

I don't really know of anything "in between." You can try one of these. http://tinyurl.com/nevnjsg
But I think you'll like the CMIT better.

For a third perspective, find someone around you with a Schoeps CMC641 supercardioid and compare that to your 4053. When I did years ago, I instantly understood why the Schoeps cost what it did.

Here: http://tinyurl.com/q6reccp

Oh, and here are some comparison files I recorded.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/0qdbe9wecjykwv1/AACHIAPv0WLlj51w6oJ_DiOoa?dl=0

Regards,

Ty

PS: Congrats on upping your game!

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford's Blog


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Craig Alan
Re: shot gun suggestions
on Nov 20, 2014 at 5:16:32 am

Thanks Ty,

We have a Schoeps cmc 6u mk41 kit. Not sure if that is the exact model you mention. But it is by far my favorite mike. Yes a step up from the 4053. However we have a bunch of the 4053 and get good results with it as well.

I understand why Hypers are better indoors than shot guns. But what about in reverse. What's the upside to using a shot gun outdoors over a good hyper?

'I don't really know of anything "in between."'

Yeah that was kinda what I was asking for. Or if not, I'd like to get some serious wind protection for the 4053. But again is this not the right choice for outdoors?

I could spring for the Schoeps CMIT if that is the only solid option. I'm basically aiming to get the kind of quality outdoors I can get indoors with the 4053.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Canon 5D Mark III/70D, Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV40, Sony Z7U/VX2000/PD170; FCP 6 certified; FCP X write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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Bruce Watson
Re: shot gun suggestions
on Nov 19, 2014 at 5:00:59 pm

... lets just edit the question to ask will a different type of mike than the AT 4053 be better for outdoor shoots and if so what would you suggest up to about $1200.

In general, a shotgun can sound better in exteriors when booming dialog. For $1200, I'd be looking for a Sennheiser MKH 8060. A large amount of exterior dialog recording in Hollywood is done with 8060s. A lot of people like the Sanken CS-3E also, but it's another $200.

Don't forget wind protection. For exteriors you'll want a basket and a furry at least. Something like the new Rode/Rycote blimp windshield.


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Ty Ford
Re: shot gun suggestions
on Nov 19, 2014 at 6:29:14 pm

Hi Bruce,

If you're outside and surrounded by hard, flat surfaces, e.g. pavement, walls, windows, the guns may not sound as good. It's all about what they're picking up from the sides.

I'm not sure how widely accepted the 8050 or 8060 are yet.

There's also the Schoeps CMC641 and Sennheiser MKH 50, but they are more expensive.

I own a pair of CMC641s, a Sennheiser 416, an 816 a Rode NTG2 and NTG3 and NTG8. I have reviewed all of them or used them in comparing one of the other mics. I have not tried the 8060, but have tried the 8050. The 8050 was very sensitive to boom handling noise. The Invision 7 mount takes care of that. It does have a "smiley face" (big on bottom, big on top) EQ that I didn't like for voice. The meat of the voice is in the midrange. That's why I like the Schoeps CMC641.

Regards,

Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum Leader

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford's Blog


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Bruce Watson
Re: shot gun suggestions
on Nov 19, 2014 at 7:21:14 pm

[Ty Ford] "If you're outside and surrounded by hard, flat surfaces, e.g. pavement, walls, windows, the guns may not sound as good. It's all about what they're picking up from the sides."

That's why I said "generally". And it's why I don't favor shotgun mics for interior work.

[Ty Ford] "I'm not sure how widely accepted the 8050 or 8060 are yet."

The dialog recording pros over on Jeff Wexler's JWSound Group forum seems to be very high on 8050/8060 mics as a group. I've been following the JWSound Group forums for years. One of the big reasons they seem to like the Sennheisers is that they are RF condensor mics, and therefore handle wet conditions well. This group also is very high on the Schoeps CMC5/6 with mk41 capsule (hypercardioid) for interior work.

I like the Schoeps mics too, but even used they are often well over the $1200 budget of the OP, so I didn't bother to mention them.

[Ty Ford] "It does have a "smiley face" (big on bottom, big on top) EQ that I didn't like for voice."

But the dialog guys like this. Given that boom operators are usually 45+cm from talent's mouth, the bottom end boost works fairly nicely for either men or women to give their voice a bit of extra warmth. The high end boost includes the presence range which is usually a nice plus for dialog clarity.

We aren't talking singing here. I don't think either the 8050 or 8060 will be on very many recordist's top 10 list for singers.

For the OP: rent your choice if you can. Try it out in your own work, see what you think before you spend the money and commit to it.


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Ty Ford
Re: shot gun suggestions
on Nov 20, 2014 at 9:57:52 am

[Ty Ford] "It does have a "smiley face" (big on bottom, big on top) EQ that I didn't like for voice."

{Bruce} But the dialog guys like this. Given that boom operators are usually 45+cm from talent's mouth, the bottom end boost works fairly nicely for either men or women to give their voice a bit of extra warmth. The high end boost includes the presence range which is usually a nice plus for dialog clarity.

We aren't talking singing here. I don't think either the 8050 or 8060 will be on very many recordist's top 10 list for singers.

--

Bruce, I'm a "dialog guy" when I'm on the boom or at the cart, and a "music guy" when I'm doing music. I don't find a lack of anything at 18" with a super or hyper, especially not a Schoeps CMC641. I'd rather hand post something I haven't tried to overthink in the field. The smiley face EQ can get you into trouble in tracking shots when talent is walking in grass or gravel. The HF boost picks up grass swish and gravel rattle under foot quite nicely, unfortunately. If you're outside in a highly humanized area, the low end from nearby cars and trucks, etc. doesn't really help you. Smiley face EQ is also a problem with overly sibilant voices. That even happens to some degree with the MKH416.

Regards,

Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum Leader

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford's Blog


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Bruce Watson
Re: shot gun suggestions
on Nov 19, 2014 at 7:31:50 pm
Last Edited By Bruce Watson on Nov 19, 2014 at 7:32:49 pm

Ah, another thought -- the MKH60 (not the 8060, but the 60) should have a flatter response curve. All the non-80xx mics do. The MKH20 for example is ruler flat from 20-20k, perhaps the flattest omni mic readily available.


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