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Craig Alan
schoeps mk41 cmc6 u for vocals
on Jun 6, 2014 at 11:02:28 pm

recording a vocalist with a fairly wide dynamic range. I like the quality I am getting except for the occasional pop. what is the best way to handle this? Is it to train the vocalist to back off when projecting? Adding a pop filter? I am already riding the gain on our 302 mixer. Nothing clipped but I did get some sudden pops. What distance and angle do you recommend? Is there a capsule of this mike that is better for music? Given that the room is not very well acoustically treated would a shire dynamic vocal mike be better? I like the sound better with the schleps but maybe a less sensitive mike would be more forgiving?

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Ty Ford
Re: schoeps mk41 cmc6 u for vocals
on Jun 7, 2014 at 2:19:40 am

Hello Craig,

The Schoeps B5D pop filter is always a good choice.

http://www.schoeps.de/en/products/categories/hollow_screen

I have a pair of them and they do a nice job for slight disturbances.

You don't want them singing directly into it as one might with the mic on a stand. I tried that once and found I had to put another foam filter on the tip of the B5D.

I have boomed from above and gotten good voice and instrument all on the same mic. Here:






Regards,

Ty Ford
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Craig Alan
Re: schoeps mk41 cmc6 u for vocals
on Jun 8, 2014 at 1:38:04 am

Thanks very helpful. If you were trying to feature a female voice with a sweet tone and a decent dynamic range over the instruments would you use schleps mk41 cmc6 with pop filter from above or an E6/sennheiser G3 or a shure dynamic/xlr?

Also what angle/distance are you using from above.

Also I think on my next try I will hang some blankets on either side of the talent because the studio is not sound treated and we are picking up b.g. noise.

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Ty Ford
Re: schoeps mk41 cmc6 u for vocals
on Jun 8, 2014 at 2:12:01 am

The Schoeps if the space is halfway decent.

Hanging blankets requires noise abatement, not acoustic treatment, which is what blankets would provide.

Schoeps at forehead height about a foot out, aimed at the mouth and chest.

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Ty Ford
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Craig Alan
Re: schoeps mk41 cmc6 u for vocals
on Jun 8, 2014 at 3:55:24 am

[Ty Ford] "Hanging blankets requires noise abatement, not acoustic treatment, which is what blankets would provide.
"


I don't follow this. Wouldn't blocking sound from the outside and absorbing sound so as to prevent echo be a good thing. Isn't this treatment?

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Ty Ford
Re: schoeps mk41 cmc6 u for vocals
on Jun 8, 2014 at 11:21:45 am
Last Edited By Ty Ford on Jun 8, 2014 at 11:23:38 am

Sorry, not enough coffee yet this morning. :)

Hanging blankets will not stop sound from the outside.

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Craig Alan
Re: schoeps mk41 cmc6 u for vocals
on Jun 8, 2014 at 6:47:32 pm

But they will help with echoes? Here's a clip from the last shoot. We used three cams and green screen. This is one that shows the mike placement and not edited yet in terms of keying. I'd never used this mike before for music. With dialog I have placed it just as you suggested. I only have one and its the best mike I have.


schoeps mk41 cmc6 for vocals



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Ty Ford
Re: schoeps mk41 cmc6 u for vocals
on Jun 8, 2014 at 7:07:23 pm
Last Edited By Ty Ford on Jun 8, 2014 at 7:08:43 pm

Well, you have two people playing and one singing. Sounds good, but I'd want to hear more of her uke and his guitar.

One mic can only capture so much Have them play the song. Put headphones on. Move the mic above her angled down and a little to camera left so it catches his playing too. So you're getting the whole performance on one mic. Not impossible at all. It does take some positioning and the players/singers performing at relatively constant levels.

When you get the best mix in your headphones, record them.

Blankets will reduce reflections that cause echoes. If you only have two blankets, usually putting them on adjacent walls in a square or rectangular room works best. I don't hear echoes on this clip.

I had two Schoeps overhead on this clip. Mostly over Shuviel (on the right). One of them was angled a bit to camera left to pickup Josh's guitar work. I probably could have done it with one mic, but I already had two up. I added some reverb to this.





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Ty Ford
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Craig Alan
Re: schoeps mk41 cmc6 u for vocals
on Jun 8, 2014 at 10:02:03 pm
Last Edited By Craig Alan on Jun 8, 2014 at 10:03:10 pm

Thanks Ty. There is a second mike on his guitar but I kept the levels low. You can see it if you go full screen. So you can blame me for that not mike placement. I think this song is all about her voice and lyrics. But when she leaned into the mike later on she poped. On the first clip you can hear the popping and on the second you can hear his guitar mike. Will the foam that came with the mike prevent the popping or just train her not to lean in on this kind of mike - yes I will try the over head position which will also pick up her uke. On a previous session his guitar dominated her voice and I wanted to correct for his. Perhaps overcompensated. Of course if I recorded to different channels I could remix it.

schoeps mk41 cmc6 for vocals pop



schoeps mk41 cmc6 guitar



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Ty Ford
Re: schoeps mk41 cmc6 u for vocals
on Jun 8, 2014 at 10:18:11 pm

yep, remix.

Keep her away from mic. Either from above so you get more uke or angled so you do.

Tell he the mic reaches out to her and she doesn't need to sing to it. She how she does with that.

Amazingly directional those cmc641, aren't they.

Regards,

Ty

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Craig Alan
Re: schoeps mk41 cmc6 u for vocals
on Jun 8, 2014 at 10:36:19 pm

Well I recorded to center channel for both so I'll have to reshoot. I love that mike. She is used to the shure where I told her when she went soft that she could practically eat it. I'll remind her of the difference.

Will the foam that came with the schoeps help a bit with breath and pop sounds?

BTW I did monitor with headphones and the guitars were more upfront when I monitored live. I could clearly hear her uke though still lower than voice and his guitar was clear enough.

OT: these short clips I uploaded took forever. How do you get yours into the cow posts?

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Bill Davis
Re: schoeps mk41 cmc6 u for vocals
on Jun 9, 2014 at 6:00:53 am
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Jun 9, 2014 at 6:10:22 am

If you're going to reshoot, a couple of optional notes...
Consider an inside rather than an outside key for her . As it is, her shoulder, nose and chin are all in danger of blowing out and you have little light for her eyes. Plus the whole scene falls off dramatically right to left with the guitarist in a shadow not too far off from the background level.
And is there a reason you're cutting both stringed instruments off in the frame? With no space around the players you'll have no wide shot possible in post.
I agree with Ty that with the Schoeps, you could place it more stage left and point across the duo and maybe slightly raised and angled down to focus on her voice but still keep the Ike and guitar in the pattern. I'd probably also have him swing around more to face the vocalist with his guitar neck more upstage. Then with a wider key coming from stage right, the guitarist could maybe pick up some edge light from her key.
Have the vocalist would essentially sing to the audience, not at the mic.
Finally, test the key before you reshoot. That BG looks at least a couple of stops too dim to keep noise out of the key - but I could easily be wrong. If the edges are clean, Carry on. Just some observances - for what they are worth.
Good luck and let us know how things go.

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Craig Alan
Re: schoeps mk41 cmc6 u for vocals
on Jun 10, 2014 at 3:58:21 pm

I agree with all that, Bill. Thanks. Poorly lit poorly framed and we will reshoot. The CYC wall needs some white light added to pull a key without noise. The lighting was the result of two second guessed schemes. There was a debate whether to go green screen or not and I was concentrating on the audio using the schleps for music for the first time.

But back to the topic - you would go with one mike positioned as noted rather than a second mike for his guitar? My gut tells me to mike them separately and each to their own channel. Thus the mikes would be aimed away from each other so as to not get any phasing problems.

But I am more than open to suggestions. Appreciate your feedback.

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Bill Davis
Re: schoeps mk41 cmc6 u for vocals
on Jun 11, 2014 at 10:12:58 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Jun 11, 2014 at 10:15:38 pm

Hi Craig.

Here's how my thinking would go with this.

A) I have one great mic and another of somewhat lesser quality. Add that to the fact that using a single mic eliminates all phase and imaging issues, I'd see if I could do the job with just the Schoepps first.

I'd start by putting my head where the mic will be and having the talent play and see if I can find the sweet spot where the balance between each instrument and her voice sounds best. Need more voice and less instruments, move the mic toward her mouth, but never forget that the Schoepps is very accurate, very sensitive and has very low self noise - so she does NOT have to use it like a singers dynamic and sing right at it. Just keep it aimed at her mouth because her voice is the star here. Also remember that the mic doesnt have to do everything. Too much guitar? See if he can just play softer.

If I can't solve it that way only THEN would I bring in the second mic. If you have to do that the 3 to 1 rule becomes important. Try to maintain three times the distance between the two mics as from any mic to the sound source.

Good luck and post how it goes.

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Craig Alan
Re: schoeps mk41 cmc6 u for vocals
on Jun 12, 2014 at 11:21:09 am

Thanks Bill. I follow. I see the advantages. I appreciate the review. I've used this technique for dialog. In fact, all my production teams shoot dialog with a single boom. Kinda surprised that it works this well for music. I'd love to add a couple more of the Schoeps to our arsenal.

I also see the advantage of being able to edit two separate channels. The singer does go from a whisper to fairly strong projection. I will most likely have a student audio tech. It's hard to ride the levels perfectly and there are times that the guitar will overpower her softest voice.

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Ty Ford
Re: schoeps mk41 cmc6 u for vocals
on Jun 8, 2014 at 11:18:18 pm

I post Youtube URLs

Ty

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Bruce Watson
Re: schoeps mk41 cmc6 u for vocals
on Jun 10, 2014 at 3:36:06 pm

That's remarkable Mr. Ford. Was the mic in "dialog position" (just out of frame and out in front of the mouth a foot or so, pointing at the mouth at about a 45 degree angle), or was it pointed more at his chest, or where? I never would have thought to use a hypercardiod like this for singing. Clearly an inspired choice.


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Ty Ford
Re: schoeps mk41 cmc6 u for vocals
on Jun 10, 2014 at 4:13:49 pm
Last Edited By Ty Ford on Jun 10, 2014 at 4:15:41 pm

Mr. Watson,

Welcome to Creative Cow!

Thanks for your kind remarks. This was shot in my audio studio. As such, there's damping and reflection control at work. The room's not dead, but it's tight; a combination of absorption and diffusion. That muslin backdrop also helps knock the bounce down. It's 24 feet long. I have it just off of two walls, clipped to the ceiling grid.

Yes, both CMC641 in a Schoeps stereo bar just out of frame, both over Shuviel on the right. Out front a bit with one Schoeps pointed straight down and the other pointed mostly down but angled to camera left enough to pick up Josh's guitar on camera left. I set them while listening to the two warm up and made the choice to leave both over Shuviel and angle one to catch Josh's guitar. I tried it. In my headphones it sounded like it worked.

It's very important that the playing and singing levels match because this approach doesn't allow for much in the way of mixing.

Regards,

Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum Leader

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Craig Alan
Re: schoeps mk41 cmc6 u for vocals
on Jun 10, 2014 at 6:28:57 pm

[Ty Ford] " As such, there's damping and reflection control at work. The room's not dead, but it's tight; a combination of absorption and diffusion. That muslin backdrop also helps knock the bounce down. It's 24 feet long. I have it just off of two walls, clipped to the ceiling grid.
"


Why then did you feel that my adding blankets (and I could also use large muslin backdrops instead) would not be that helpful?

Oh and thank you so much for your continued descriptions of your hard earned expertise. Love this forum.

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Ty Ford
Re: schoeps mk41 cmc6 u for vocals
on Jun 10, 2014 at 6:43:19 pm

Craig,

What I said was blankets won't help with noise abatement. Noise abatement is keeping outside sounds from getting in to your recording. The same is true for foam. If someone's outside with a lawn mower, blankets or foam won't stop that.

There are two aspects; noise abatement and acoustical treatment. Using acoustical treatment to try and fix noise abatement problems won't work.

Blankets and foam are for acoustical treatment.

You need D-I-D (Density-Isolation-Density) to block outside noise. Two walls (or other dense barriers) that are isolated from each other and do not touch each other in any way. e.g. nails and screws.

I floated 1 inch slabs of slate on my window well rims and isolated them from the rims with silicon caulk. I used the same caulk to keep the slabs from touching the exterior wall of the house. So, Density-Isolation-Denisty. It keeps the outside noise from getting in to my studio. It does nothing for in studio acoustics.

Make sense now?

Regards,

Ty Ford
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Craig Alan
Re: schoeps mk41 cmc6 u for vocals
on Jun 10, 2014 at 7:16:08 pm

Yes sir. I'm going to float some muslin from our grid and go outside and tell everyone to be quiet for the next two hours. and if they need to make noise they should build me a wall around our studio.

Seriously though, I was hoping they would help both treatment and abatement and you didn't seem to get behind either. But when I reread the thread I get it. I didn't believe that adding absorption would eliminate outside noise but thought it would help dampen it. Either way the room is rather hollow sounding and does have echoes even if they are not that audible in the recording.

Thanks Ty.

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Ty Ford
Re: schoeps mk41 cmc6 u for vocals
on Jun 10, 2014 at 7:48:38 pm
Last Edited By Ty Ford on Jun 10, 2014 at 7:49:09 pm

::the sword of the vocabularian comes down from the sky:: :)

Dampen means to get something wet. The word to use is damp.

Inside you need a balance of absorption and diffusion. Too much absorption and the place is dead and a pain to work in.

Regards,

Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum Leader

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Craig Alan
Re: schoeps mk41 cmc6 u for vocals
on Jun 10, 2014 at 11:03:04 pm

you are again correct though i am in good company

http://www.audimutesoundproofing.com/sound-absorbent-materials-sound-attenu...

dampen in the American Heritage Dictionary

verb

3) To soundproof.

oxford dictionary

Make less strong or intense:
nothing could dampen her enthusiasm
MORE EXAMPLE SENTENCES
SYNONYMS
2.1Reduce the amplitude of (a sound source):
slider switches on the mixers can dampen the drums

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Ty Ford
Re: schoeps mk41 cmc6 u for vocals
on Jun 11, 2014 at 12:01:33 am

Yeah, they're wrong unless they're using water or some fluid.

The world is a lot less precise with its words these days. For example, adverbs have almost completely been taken over by adjectives.

Regards,

Ty Ford
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Craig Alan
Re: schoeps mk41 cmc6 u for vocals
on Jun 11, 2014 at 3:49:46 am

Understood. As far as the studio - other than the cork floor, there is almost nothing that absorbs any of the sound and to my ears it sounds hollow and echoey. I do think for a music act it could stand some treatment.

And please read this: it's proof that "dampening" can be used as a form of sound treatment. Though they did use "damped down" to describe the technique.

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3700603

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Ty Ford
Re: schoeps mk41 cmc6 u for vocals
on Jun 11, 2014 at 10:33:37 am

Craig,

If it sounds echoey then you have reflected sound. This is not brain surgery.

Sound bounces off of hard, flat surfaces until it runs out of energy.

Find 'em, fix 'em.

Regards,

Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum Leader

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
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Craig Alan
Re: schoeps mk41 cmc6 u for vocals
on Jun 12, 2014 at 11:23:56 am

Understood. I thought the damp towel over the speaker 'fix' was kinda funny.

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