FORUMS: list search recent posts

2 Lapel Mics (Sennheiser ew 100-ENG G3) - 2 people, same studio, tinny sound

COW Forums : Audio Professionals

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
Arthur Leon
2 Lapel Mics (Sennheiser ew 100-ENG G3) - 2 people, same studio, tinny sound
on Jun 4, 2014 at 6:27:22 pm

Hello All.

I have 3 x http://en-us.sennheiser.com/wireless-clip-on-lavalier-microphone-set-presen...

At present I am only using 2 of them.

2 Mics, 2 transmitter, 2 recivers going to a Soundcraft MPMi (http://www.soundcraft.com/products/product.aspx?pid=157)

If I record only 1 person, the audio is perfect. However with 2 people, the male talent has a tinny kind of voice.

They are both in a studio and the distance between them is about 1.3 meters.

Male Talent - Transmitter set to -30DB
Female Talent - Transmitter set to -30DB

Male Talent - Receiver set to +12DB
Female Talent - Receiver set to +15DB

Tried to keep the mixer to 0DB.

For the male talent, HF is higher.

Can anyone please help me with this. I going a little nuts,

I am willing to have a skype call and find a mutual win win.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

Working to get somewhere, I think :)


Return to posts index

Richard Crowley
Re: 2 Lapel Mics (Sennheiser ew 100-ENG G3) - 2 people, same studio, tinny sound
on Jun 4, 2014 at 10:58:31 pm
Last Edited By Richard Crowley on Jun 4, 2014 at 11:04:56 pm

You told us what microphones you are using. And what mixer you are using. Presumably you have connected the normal XLR output cables from the receivers into the XLR inputs of the mixer.
However, other details are not revealed. For example...
1) What does each microphone sound like when you "solo" that channel on the mixer? Is it OK there, or does it sound "tinny"?
2) Are you violating the 3:1 rule? Each microphone must be at least 3x farther from the other source as from its own source (the subject's mouth)
3) How did you have the channels panned? Were you mixing them, or are you keeping each microphone exclusively on a separate channel?
4) What did you record this on? How was the recorder (camcorder?) connected to the mixer?
Without knowing at least those details, nobody can really help much.

Posting an audible sample is worth at least 1000 words.


Return to posts index

Craig Alan
Re: 2 Lapel Mics (Sennheiser ew 100-ENG G3) - 2 people, same studio, tinny sound
on Jun 6, 2014 at 9:40:18 pm

[Richard Crowley] "2) Are you violating the 3:1 rule? Each microphone must be at least 3x farther from the other source as from its own source (the subject's mouth)"

Is this a ballpark rule of thumb or is this based on some hard wave form analysis? Just curious. Obviously your source needs to be much closer to the mike other wise background noise dominates the audio. But I have not heard that it produces tinny or any other characteristic sound other than noisy.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Canon 5D Mark III/70D, Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV40, Sony Z7U/VX2000/PD170; FCP 6 certified; FCP X write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


Return to posts index


Richard Crowley
Re: 2 Lapel Mics (Sennheiser ew 100-ENG G3) - 2 people, same studio, tinny sound
on Jun 7, 2014 at 2:37:52 pm
Last Edited By Richard Crowley on Jun 7, 2014 at 2:41:37 pm

Is this a ballpark rule of thumb or is this based on some hard wave form analysis? Just curious. Obviously your source needs to be much closer to the mike other wise background noise dominates the audio. But I have not heard that it produces tinny or any other characteristic sound other than noisy

A simple Google search will reveal dozens of explanations and demonstrations of the 3:1 rule with. There can be very serious phasing problems when sounds are picked up by two microphones at different distances. And timing problems as well.

I am doing sound for several seasons of a TV show where four guys are sitting around a rather small (~1.3m) table, and we have endless problems with the 3:1 rule. But that is what the producer wants.





Return to posts index

Craig Alan
Re: 2 Lapel Mics (Sennheiser ew 100-ENG G3) - 2 people, same studio, tinny sound
on Jun 7, 2014 at 3:35:53 pm

I have followed the 3:1 rule. But never really understood it well. You are correct the google search covers it in detail. Sorry can't imagine hiring an audio pro and not letting them handle the audio. Audio is by far the most unforgiving of all the production crafts. And the most critical.

So how do you mike the group facing each other around the table?

Now that I think about it, I've seen a lot of shows when a group is at a table together they use a very long table and usually there is a 'reason' at least one member is standing off to the side. Or they cut between close ups. But that is scripted. How would you handle the three judges or singers all facing the camera, sitting next to each other?

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Canon 5D Mark III/70D, Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV40, Sony Z7U/VX2000/PD170; FCP 6 certified; FCP X write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


Return to posts index

Richard Crowley
Re: 2 Lapel Mics (Sennheiser ew 100-ENG G3) - 2 people, same studio, tinny sound
on Jun 7, 2014 at 4:53:51 pm

Sorry can't imagine hiring an audio pro and not letting them handle the audio.
But "handling the audio" often does NOT include DESIGN, but only EXECUTION (sometimes spelled "accommodation"). I have been arguing from day one for using headset mics, but I was limited to using lavs, and HIDDEN at that. The producer thinks it is OK to see the fifth camera on a circular track around the table, but he doesn't want any visible microphones(!)

The programs are shot completely ISO, and he does the switching/editing completely in post production. And that includes recording all four microphones on separate tracks and manually mixing the audio to avoid the 3:1 problem. In many cases the sound from one of the OTHER guys is almost louder in the mic than the person who the mic is attached to!

Those "talent show" programs with the panel of judges have the people separated far enough to avoid the 3:1 rule. Or at least the ones that I have seen.


Return to posts index


Craig Alan
Re: 2 Lapel Mics (Sennheiser ew 100-ENG G3) - 2 people, same studio, tinny sound
on Jun 8, 2014 at 1:45:33 am

So if you had a larger table and each talent had their own lapel and sent to an individual channel you should be ok. On Dancing with the Stars the judges look to me to be pretty close but they are facing in the same direction not angled at each other.



Can't only one channel be active at any given moment? And toggled between the active speaker. You'd still pick up sound from whoever starts talking since they are so close. My point being that if i had someone with your skill I'd design the shots with sound as a variable. I mean the show is basically dialog. Sound is the most important aspect of the recording.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Canon 5D Mark III/70D, Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV40, Sony Z7U/VX2000/PD170; FCP 6 certified; FCP X write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


Return to posts index

Richard Crowley
Re: 2 Lapel Mics (Sennheiser ew 100-ENG G3) - 2 people, same studio, tinny sound
on Jun 8, 2014 at 4:29:54 am

That photo shows that the microphone placement is just outside the 3:1 rule. In addition, it seems rather likely that they are using an auto-mixer and ducking the mics when the subjects aren't speaking.


Return to posts index

Craig Alan
Re: 2 Lapel Mics (Sennheiser ew 100-ENG G3) - 2 people, same studio, tinny sound
on Jun 8, 2014 at 6:39:16 pm

How does the auto mixer work when two talents speak at once? On this show they have a lot of kidding and interrupting each other where one talent will lean into the other's space. That's when I thought the 3:1 would be violated. Is an auto mixer too expensive for the show you are doing? Sorry to be a pest but I'm really interested in how this is done properly because I am asked to shoot table meetings. Would a single omin hung in the middle of the table do the trick?

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Canon 5D Mark III/70D, Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV40, Sony Z7U/VX2000/PD170; FCP 6 certified; FCP X write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


Return to posts index


Richard Crowley
Re: 2 Lapel Mics (Sennheiser ew 100-ENG G3) - 2 people, same studio, tinny sound
on Jun 8, 2014 at 9:01:32 pm

Auto-mixers continuously measure the TOTAL sound level (to establish a "baseline background level", and they measure the level from EACH channel and compare it to the others, and to the "baseline ambient" level. It "enables" a channel when it "detects" that someone there is talking. Now "enable" may mean bringing it up from a lower level, or it may bean un-MUTING the channel, etc. however the sound operator has determined the proper operation is for the situation. And "detect" is also a rather complex thing with other parameters to configure by the operator.

One of those parameters to configure is how to handle concurrent channel activation. In some situations (such as a panel discussion or a congressional committee hearing, etc.) the chair or master of ceremonies or moderator, etc. has "priority" and over-rides any other channels. But in other situations (as with this TV show judges' panel), they set it up so that any channel that is active has equal priority and is mixed with the others. Of course in a live TV talent show (etc.) they have a human mixer also sitting there who is performing the final mixing function with the automatic feature only as an aid.

Those lav mics are close enough to the judges' mouths, and the judges are spaced far enough from each other that they exceed the 3:1 rule. The mouth of the adjacent judge is well over 3x farther from each microphone than the mouth of the judge the mic is attached to.

In the case of our "Table Talk" show, the guys are rather energetic. They are all runners and very physically fit, as well as "Type A" personalities and very frequently interrupt and talk over each other. And because of their personalities, they also frequently lean into the table and violate the 3:1 rule. In many cases the sound of a particular guy is almost louder on an adjacent mic than on their own microphone. Because the producer wanted no visible mics, we had to secure the lavs into the inside collars of their shirts. This is a pretty casual group, and they only wear suits and ties on very formal occasions or in very conservative venues.

Because the entire production is shot "iso" (each camera recorded to a separate media) and then "switched" during post-production, the audio is also recorded as each microphone on a separate channel and then the audio is "switched" in a similar manner to the video. Of course, for purposes of production design, the audio does not strictly "follow" the video switch becasuse there are lots of wide shots and over-the-shoulder shots and reaction shots and side-shots, so editing the audio is for all practical purposes another whole pass through the show after all the video shots have been selected.

We used five Sony EX1 cameras, each recording internally to their SxS cards. And on the most recent series, we used the producers new Zoom H6 recorder to grab the separate mic audio tracks. We also fed each mic to their respective camera both for sync purposes, and for a backup recording. I used my Panasonic AW-HS50 video switcher just as a "multi-view" so the director could see all five cameras.

I used a mic-spliter to send the mic channels to both the cameras and to the mixer/recorder.


Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2017 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]