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Craig Alan
follow up to 2 302s 6 mikes 2 camcorders
on Nov 25, 2013 at 5:58:27 pm

Ok make that 2 302s 4 mikes 1 mike per channel on each of the 302s and each of the 2 camcorders and would this do the trick in terms of sync?



Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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John Fishback
Re: follow up to 2 302s 6 mikes 2 camcorders
on Nov 25, 2013 at 7:02:32 pm

Looks good. Just be sure to start the reference camcorder (the one with timecode out) first, then start the slave.

John

MacPro 8-core 2.8GHz, 16 GB RAM, OS 10.8.4, QT10.1, Kona 3, Dual Cinema 23, ATI Radeon HD 5870, 24" TV-Logic Monitor, ATTO ExpressSAS R380 RAID Adapter, PDE enclosure with 8-drive 6TB RAID 5
FCS 3 (FCP 7.0.3, Motion 4.0.3, Comp 3.5.3, DVDSP 4.2.2, Color 1.5.3)
FCP-X 10.0.9, Motion 5.0.7, Compressor 4.0.7

Pro Tools HD 10 w SYNC IO & 192 Digital I/O, Yamaha DM1000, Millennia Media HV-3C, Neumann U87, Schoeps Mk41 mics, Genelec DSP Monitors, Prima CDQ120 ISDN


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Craig Alan
Re: follow up to 2 302s 6 mikes 2 camcorders
on Nov 25, 2013 at 9:00:43 pm

Thanks. This will give us 4 synced channels. The sound devices mixer/recorder is still on wish list. I'll research some more on what gear to add so we can record sound to the mixer recorder and be in sync with multiple cams.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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Craig Alan
john, would jam sync work as well
on Nov 26, 2013 at 3:52:31 pm

John,

I do have the option to jam sync slave 1 and then jam sync slave 2. This would not allow for genlock daisy chain because there is only one genlock port per cam. But would there be a drift problem with a jam sync of timecode? The page from the manual does say 2 or more cameras. I do no expect more than an hour shoot with no battery changes.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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John Fishback
Re: john, would jam sync work as well
on Nov 26, 2013 at 5:27:15 pm

I don't remember if I mentioned this in the original thread. If you want to sync 3 or more cams the best way is to distribute both the timecode and sync from DAs (distribution amps) to each cam. I wouldn't advise using one cam as the master with 3 or more cams. Too many things can go wrong.

If you do it this way, you should have no problems.

------
tc out------------------>DA
------ |
|
-------- |
sync out------->DA |
-------- | |
|------------- Cam 1 sync in
| |--- Cam 1 timecode in
| |

etc. for as many cams you need

John

MacPro 8-core 2.8GHz, 16 GB RAM, OS 10.8.4, QT10.1, Kona 3, Dual Cinema 23, ATI Radeon HD 5870, 24" TV-Logic Monitor, ATTO ExpressSAS R380 RAID Adapter, PDE enclosure with 8-drive 6TB RAID 5
FCS 3 (FCP 7.0.3, Motion 4.0.3, Comp 3.5.3, DVDSP 4.2.2, Color 1.5.3)
FCP-X 10.0.9, Motion 5.0.7, Compressor 4.0.7

Pro Tools HD 10 w SYNC IO & 192 Digital I/O, Yamaha DM1000, Millennia Media HV-3C, Neumann U87, Schoeps Mk41 mics, Genelec DSP Monitors, Prima CDQ120 ISDN


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Craig Alan
Re: john, would jam sync work as well
on Nov 26, 2013 at 6:06:57 pm

again I don't have a working budget. but just for future reference in your diagram above can I still use one of the camcorders to generate the timecode and sync?

camcorder 1 time code out/video out-->DA
>DA time code and genlock out-->camcorders 2
>DA time code and genlock out-->camcorders 3
>DA time code and genlock out-->camcorders 4

or do I also need a time code generator and other gear?

Sorry just really struggling and getting very mixed advice. Can't believe panasonic's tech support couldn't help with their own camera features.

In the mean time:should I go time code out and sdi out cam 1 to timecode in and genlock in on camera 2?

And if so can I jam sync or stay plugged in.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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Bill Davis
Re: john, would jam sync work as well
on Nov 26, 2013 at 9:57:34 pm

Out of curiosity, why do you feel you need house sync at all?

Is there a reason you need all the cameras and audio recorders following the same timecode?

If you've got consistent sample rates going, I haven't seen a modern camera visibly drift over time in years.

And with today's sophisticated NLE's that do waveform analysis and post sync so fluidly, just what are you trying to protect against?

My laptop running FCP-X can sync 8 cameras and 8 second system audio tracks without blinking an eye - and doesn't care a whit about whether or not timecode is present.

So I guess I'm wondering why you're trying to do it the "old school" way?

Are you editing in a facility that still requires timecode? Just curious.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Craig Alan
Re: john, would jam sync work as well
on Nov 27, 2013 at 4:12:27 am

Hi Bill,

This is why:

http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/30/871749

Please read thread and tell me what you think.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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Bill Davis
Re: john, would jam sync work as well
on Nov 30, 2013 at 11:15:12 pm
Last Edited By Bill Davis on Nov 30, 2013 at 11:17:56 pm

The referenced post has outdated info.

Modern NLEs typically allow you to slip audio in subframe increments - so you can address phase problems pretty easily.

I highly recommend that you NOT try to record any audio on the cameras themselves - other than on-camera mics for scratch track post sync.

It would be much better to have a second system master of a live audio mix, plus ISO stems to use if the initial live mix isn't what you were looking for.

A laptop running digital audio workstation software is the standard here - taking feeds from whatever mics or direct boxes you're using for performance capture.

This is important because sound is very slow compared to light - and while video coming from multiple cameras will all stay in sync - audio hitting mics that are separated by space will have noticible time delays. So you want to get the mics away from the cameras and on to the musical performers directly.

Direct box feed are MUCH better than mics in space - unless the room ambiance is an essential part of the sound you're trying to record.

With modern NLE tools, syncing sound with visuals isn't particularly difficult any more.

IMO, you should concentrate on your visuals - and have a different strategy and brain in place that can concentrate equally (but separately) on recording the audio.

Good luck.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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Craig Alan
Re: john, would jam sync work as well
on Dec 1, 2013 at 5:27:10 pm

Thanks Bill,

I found this:

http://www.fcp.co/final-cut-pro/tutorials/1191-sub-frame-audio-editing-with...

which explains the process of subframe audio editing pretty well.

I'll look for another specifically addressing syncing multiple channels of audio.

[Bill Davis] "I highly recommend that you NOT try to record any audio on the cameras themselves - other than on-camera mics for scratch track post sync.
"


Yes this was my only use for the internal mikes. Just as a reference.

[Bill Davis] "It would be much better to have a second system master of a live audio mix, plus ISO stems to use if the initial live mix isn't what you were looking for."

Yes I hope to add a sound devices 6-8 channel mixer recorder to our arsenal.

[Bill Davis] "A laptop running digital audio workstation software is the standard here - taking feeds from whatever mics or direct boxes you're using for performance capture."

You are saying using a laptop as the audio recorder? What software would you recommend?

[Bill Davis] "This is important because sound is very slow compared to light - and while video coming from multiple cameras will all stay in sync - audio hitting mics that are separated by space will have noticible time delays. So you want to get the mics away from the cameras and on to the musical performers directly."

Yes I explained the mikes are placed with the talent feeding 302 mixers (2 mikes each one to each channel) which in turn feed the camera audio inputs. Now if we could feed a laptop instead as a second system sound recorder that would be interesting. Though I have no experience with audio software and am pretty up to my eyeballs in learning new stuff right now.

[Bill Davis] "Direct box feed are MUCH better than mics in space - unless the room ambiance is an essential part of the sound you're trying to record.
"


Do you mean a DI box? If so a quick idiot's guide to the set up would help: what is connected to what and what unit would you recommend at what cost?


[Bill Davis] "IMO, you should concentrate on your visuals - and have a different strategy and brain in place that can concentrate equally (but separately) on recording the audio."

I have plenty of hands to do this. But I am the one man band teacher and have to figure it ALL out first.

Craig

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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Bill Davis
Re: john, would jam sync work as well
on Dec 1, 2013 at 6:50:54 pm

No time for too much response right now, but do a Google search on Firewire Mixers and you'll find a number of units that can take multiple mic feeds, set levels appropriately for a live performance - while simultaneously grabbing multiple channels of PFL audio from the channel strips to record on a laptop.

Done every day.

Any modern laptop has all the horsepower needed to do superb multi-track audio recording.

And the mixers often come with - or at least recommend suitable multi-track recording software that works with their hardware.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


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John Fishback
Re: john, would jam sync work as well
on Nov 26, 2013 at 10:58:06 pm

As Bill points out, it's not technically necessary to distribute the timecode. The sync is what keeps it all together. Still, I like timecode which helps me navigate clips, if necessary.

You can use cam 1 as a master for additional cams. You'd still need DAs to break out to each of the other cams. It's still important to start cam 1 first then the others.

John

MacPro 8-core 2.8GHz, 16 GB RAM, OS 10.8.4, QT10.1, Kona 3, Dual Cinema 23, ATI Radeon HD 5870, 24" TV-Logic Monitor, ATTO ExpressSAS R380 RAID Adapter, PDE enclosure with 8-drive 6TB RAID 5
FCS 3 (FCP 7.0.3, Motion 4.0.3, Comp 3.5.3, DVDSP 4.2.2, Color 1.5.3)
FCP-X 10.0.9, Motion 5.0.7, Compressor 4.0.7

Pro Tools HD 10 w SYNC IO & 192 Digital I/O, Yamaha DM1000, Millennia Media HV-3C, Neumann U87, Schoeps Mk41 mics, Genelec DSP Monitors, Prima CDQ120 ISDN


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Craig Alan
Re: john, would jam sync work as well
on Nov 27, 2013 at 4:01:42 am

Thanks John,

So I can sync without using timecode? Exactly what do I hook up with what? At this point I just want to know what my how to options are. I thought cams were synced using timecode.

If I just need a DA and not a AJA Gen10 or a time code generator, what's the best bang for the buck and how do I hook it up?

Every time I think I have a handle on this, someone else points out that it either won't work very well or it wasn't needed to begin with.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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John Fishback
Re: john, would jam sync work as well
on Nov 27, 2013 at 7:05:48 pm

As Bill said, you don't need timecode. The cams are synced by the reference sync. The sync keeps each frame of video in sync on all the cams. Sync doesn't care about timecode. Timecode is a convenience as you can go to the same code on every clip and see/hear the same thing. If you do not use timecode, you have to use an app like Plural Eyes that "listens" to all the audio tracks and syncs all the clips by lining up the video. Of course it's important to have the same good audio on all cams. This might not work for you as it sounds like you'll want to use different audio on your cam's tracks. If that is the case, then you need timecode for the NLE to successfully assemble the synced timeline. BTW, many NLEs can sync (like Plural Eyes) with just the audio. In that case you wouldn't need Plural Eyes. Again, I think it would be a good idea to hire a video engineer or someone in your area who's done a multi-cam shoot before to coach you through the first project.

John

MacPro 8-core 2.8GHz, 16 GB RAM, OS 10.8.4, QT10.1, Kona 3, Dual Cinema 23, ATI Radeon HD 5870, 24" TV-Logic Monitor, ATTO ExpressSAS R380 RAID Adapter, PDE enclosure with 8-drive 6TB RAID 5
FCS 3 (FCP 7.0.3, Motion 4.0.3, Comp 3.5.3, DVDSP 4.2.2, Color 1.5.3)
FCP-X 10.0.9, Motion 5.0.7, Compressor 4.0.7

Pro Tools HD 10 w SYNC IO & 192 Digital I/O, Yamaha DM1000, Millennia Media HV-3C, Neumann U87, Schoeps Mk41 mics, Genelec DSP Monitors, Prima CDQ120 ISDN


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Craig Alan
Re: john, would jam sync work as well
on Nov 27, 2013 at 10:42:15 pm

Thanks John,
I thought sync was based on time-code. And yes this research started with an audio tech telling me that a waveform sync (like aligning a clapper spike in post) would not sync separate tracks of audio recorded on different non-synced cameras good enough for music.
He did say he was able to sync properly using pro tools making corrections in very small increments that a NLE is not able to do. He also implied he would prefer not to have to do this.
I have no budget for a pro and pros are not necessarily teachers. I’ll continue to look for articles or tutorials or advice from whomever but if I don’t get any further I will :
Jam sync camera 1 (the master) to camera 3.
Connect time-code out to time-code in camera 1>camera 2
Connect camera 1 video out > genlock in on camera 2.
I’ll connect 302 mixers to camera 1 and camera 2.
Two mikes to each mixer; one on each channel.
Camera 3 will be free to roam and be cordless and will just use the internal mike.
Then I’ll import all three sets of media in FCP X and see what I’ve got.
The next time I get some funding, a 6-8 channel mixer/recorder is on the top of the list. I’ll also look into what tools are needed to make this easier if jam syncing does not do the trick.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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John Fishback
Re: john, would jam sync work as well
on Nov 28, 2013 at 2:46:21 am

Sounds reasonsble. You may have to slip & slide with Cam 3 in the edit, but it should be close. If you have breaks in your schedule, you might want to jam sync Cam 3 every hour or so.

John

MacPro 8-core 2.8GHz, 16 GB RAM, OS 10.8.4, QT10.1, Kona 3, Dual Cinema 23, ATI Radeon HD 5870, 24" TV-Logic Monitor, ATTO ExpressSAS R380 RAID Adapter, PDE enclosure with 8-drive 6TB RAID 5
FCS 3 (FCP 7.0.3, Motion 4.0.3, Comp 3.5.3, DVDSP 4.2.2, Color 1.5.3)
FCP-X 10.0.9, Motion 5.0.7, Compressor 4.0.7

Pro Tools HD 10 w SYNC IO & 192 Digital I/O, Yamaha DM1000, Millennia Media HV-3C, Neumann U87, Schoeps Mk41 mics, Genelec DSP Monitors, Prima CDQ120 ISDN


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Craig Alan
Re: john, would jam sync work as well
on Nov 28, 2013 at 5:31:02 pm

Thanks again John.

I appreciate your patience. It is not easy being a one man band.

I must say that riding the gain, mike placement, audio mixing is the part that takes experience, talent, craft, and a good ear. But just learning to connect things so they all allow for this is easy to do but very hard, sometimes, to learn how to do.

This particular puzzle has really surprised me on how hard it has been to get solid consistent advice. I mean Panasonic senior tech support has "no experience" using time code and genlock? Really? Someone there decided to build these features in to a prosumer level camcorder that they advertise aggressively.

Yes I read about the reported small drift over time and any power interruption with jam synced cams.

Cam 3 here is really just for learning. The set up will give us 4 tracks of audio which covers two guitars and 2 vocals. Ideally we would have two guitars and three vocals and a bongo covered but I know from our tests so far that the AT 4053s pick up the bongos and singers seated over their guitars pretty well. The guitar that is miked dominates and the lead vocalist has her own shure mike and her track sounds really good to my less than pro ears. The band liked the video we played back through an Imac with just three mikes mixed live into two channels to one camera.

My goal in the long run is to offer this to our music teachers and students so they can have decent reels of their talent and hard work.

In any case it's a start and should be way better than just using an attenuated house feed or a mike stand near house speakers or two mikes on two stands in front of a group -- all of which I've used before.

If it turns out we can't afford a sound devices 6-8 channel mixer then I'll go for the zoom H6.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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