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Craig Alan
2 302s 6 mikes 2 camcorders any gotchas
on Nov 14, 2013 at 4:23:21 am

Does any one see any problem in post if we shoot a musical group using two camcorders each fed from a SD 302 mixer with 3 mikes each?

I know the 302s can be ganged though I don't have the interconnect. However I want, for educational purposes, to use two audio techs working together with two camera operators.

If this is PROBLEMATIC I do have the interconnect to gang a mix pre D with the 302 and we could get by with 5 mikes, though there are 6 sound sources to be covered.

Also I only have one shure instrument mike. Would I do better with a shure vocal mike or a AT4053b to mike instruments?

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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Rob Neidig
Re: 2 302s 6 mikes 2 camcorders any gotchas
on Nov 14, 2013 at 4:06:38 pm

Craig,

Regarding using two 302s to two cameras -

There shouldn't be any real problem syncing these up in post. You may get a small drift over time, but you could re-align song by song if you are doing a longer program. The problem you will have is that you have to mix the 3 mics on each mixer together down to a stereo file on each camera. Normally for music post-mixing you would want all six of your tracks to be recorded separately so you could mix them together in post. Since I'm assuming your cameras only record stereo, you are going to have to do a submix of boths sets of 3 mics, then mix those two stereo files together. So it's possible, but not optimal.

Regarding using the AT4053b or Shure vocal mic on instruments -

It depends. What instruments? What Shure vocal mic?

Have fun!

Rob

Rob Neidig
R&R Media Productions
Eugene, Oregon


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Peter Groom
Re: 2 302s 6 mikes 2 camcorders any gotchas
on Nov 14, 2013 at 10:51:17 pm

Ok
My problem I see with this is that the 2camcorders can't be started synchronously so will not be sync able exactly.
You will find there's an issue with this when you try to mix. There will always be up to a frame difference between the tracks.
I had this last week with a split track of a shoot of an event where 2 cameras had 4 mics sep sound of the same scene.
When synced in avid there was a metallic phasing sound, as they were 1/4 frame out'
so I took an omf to protools, nudge them around by sample increments and sync them exactly then put them back to avid.
Peter

Post Production Dubbing Mixer


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Craig Alan
Re: 2 302s 6 mikes 2 camcorders any gotchas
on Nov 15, 2013 at 4:48:15 am

[Peter Groom] "You will find there's an issue with this when you try to mix. There will always be up to a frame difference between the tracks."

what if we use a clapper? Did your nudging solve the sync issue or just help a bit?

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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Peter Groom
Re: 2 302s 6 mikes 2 camcorders any gotchas
on Nov 15, 2013 at 1:44:07 pm

Hi
Its not the lack of a good sync point that is important but a video platforms inability to move fine adjustmnets than just + or - 1 frame at a time. Pro Tools alows me to nudge down to the sample which is 1/ 48000th of a second if need be.
When 2 cameras start recording on a press of a button, the actual moment of start on each will differ. This can mean that cam 1 started some part of a frame earlier than camera 2. A NLE isnt capable of slipping 1 to the eother by any less than 1 frame, so the offset caused by the actual moment of start may be up to a frame. which wehn you open the faders can result in a "metallic" sound (its actually an echo, but is much smaller than we can hears as an echo.

Hope this explains.
NB By syncing much more accurately in pro tools, then exporting a new file back into my avid, i was able to nudge the audio, relative to the other camera by miniscule amounts (way less than a frame) to give a solid sounding sync.

Peter

Post Production Dubbing Mixer


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Craig Alan
Re: 2 302s 6 mikes 2 camcorders any gotchas
on Nov 16, 2013 at 6:27:20 pm

Yes crystal. Had no idea that audio wasn't perfectly aligned with a single video frame. Gives me motivation to dig into a sound editing program. I have heard that metallic echo sound in recordings and just figured it was the acoustic environment not a sync issue. Thanks again.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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Craig Alan
Re: 2 302s 6 mikes 2 camcorders any gotchas
on Nov 16, 2013 at 6:23:51 pm

Thank you Peter. I have not used pro tools but will look into it in the future. Glad I posted. Kinda thought I was over-reaching but figured I'd check with this forum.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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Craig Alan
Re: 2 302s 6 mikes 2 camcorders any gotchas
on Dec 1, 2013 at 5:30:45 pm

Peter,

Just learned that FCP X can edit audio to 1/80th of a frame. Shouldn't this do the trick?

http://www.fcp.co/final-cut-pro/tutorials/1191-sub-frame-audio-editing-with...

Craig

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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Craig Alan
Re: 2 302s 6 mikes 2 camcorders any gotchas
on Nov 15, 2013 at 4:44:00 am

[Rob Neidig] "There shouldn't be any real problem syncing these up in post. You may get a small drift over time, but you could re-align song by song if you are doing a longer program.

that's what I was asking. Sounds doable.

[Rob Neidig] The problem you will have is that you have to mix the 3 mics on each mixer together down to a stereo file on each camera. Normally for music post-mixing you would want all six of your tracks to be recorded separately so you could mix them together in post. Since I'm assuming your cameras only record stereo, you are going to have to do a submix of boths sets of 3 mics, then mix those two stereo files together. So it's possible, but not optimal.

Granted. A mixer recorder is on my wish list.

[Rob Neidig] Regarding using the AT4053b or Shure vocal mic on instruments -

It depends. What instruments? What Shure vocal mic?

Shure SM58. Acoustic guitars. bongos.

Would it help to send one input to L one input to R channels and the third to center? There are three main talents. Guitar Guitar lead Vocalist.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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Rob Neidig
Re: 2 302s 6 mikes 2 camcorders any gotchas
on Nov 15, 2013 at 4:35:37 pm

<>

I'd probably try the AT4053b first. On acoustic guitar point it at the neck at the 12th fret. Changing the angle slightly toward the sound hole will give you less/more low end, which can sometimes become boomy. This is usually done with a cardioid pattern mic rather than the hypercardioid AT4053b, but the tighter pattern might actually help you isolate the guitar is this instance.

For the bongos, the 4053 should also probably work. Though the SM58 would probably be fine if you get it in fairly close. If you only have one 4053 and one SM58, I'd put the 4053 on guitar and the 58 on the bongos.

<>

Not really. That means that the third input is going to be mixed in with BOTH other inputs, making changing their relative levels in post pretty much impossible. If you can somehow record just two inputs to each camera, sending them hard left and hard right, then you would have isolated tracks for each of those to work with in post. Then you would need a third camera - or a portable audio recorder like a Zoom H2n - to record the 5th and 6th sources to. As has been mentioned elsewhere, a multi-track recorder, where all the sources get recorded together in one machine, is your best option. Then you don't need to worry about sync, drift, or nudging. And I don't know what cameras you are using to record this, but many video cameras really cheap out on the audio side of things. And some record to codecs that use compressed audio, further degrading your audio. So from a pure audio quality standpoint, something like the Zoom H6 or Tascam DR-680 would give you much better results.

The other option that I think somebody else mentioned already, too, is to hire an audio person to come in and take care of it. They can either record multi-tracks for you, or just do a live to stereo mix for you on the fly (or both). With a good sound person, that live mix would end up better than trying to record 6 sources to two cameras.

Have fun!

Rob

Rob Neidig
R&R Media Productions
Eugene, Oregon


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Craig Alan
Re: 2 302s 6 mikes 2 camcorders any gotchas
on Nov 16, 2013 at 6:15:11 pm

[Rob Neidig] "I'd probably try the AT4053b first. On acoustic guitar point it at the neck at the 12th fret. Changing the angle slightly toward the sound hole will give you less/more low end, which can sometimes become boomy. This is usually done with a cardioid pattern mic rather than the hypercardioid AT4053b, but the tighter pattern might actually help you isolate the guitar is this instance."

Thank you. That makes sense. I have several of these mikes and will set up both guitars with two of them.
I will use a third one for the bongos. I'll need to run 2 xlr cables to my mixer. I was using 3 cordless transmitters. My transmitter plugs do not provide phantom power. I will use the vocal mike for the singer

(unless a third AT would be a better choice?).

I will (for now) put both guitars on one channel and the vocals on the other (for camera one). Judging by the other posts, I will run into problems syncing the second camera's audio to the first. We will try it anyway and can always not use the audio track but use the second cam for different angles of the performers.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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Brian Reynolds
Re: 2 302s 6 mikes 2 camcorders any gotchas
on Nov 15, 2013 at 8:15:15 am

I doubt if you will get the 2 feeds good enough for music.... an interview would be fine, but not music.
Spend the money and do it properly hire a recorder for a day, even a Zoom H6. A few $$$ spent will save you hours of frustration.


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Craig Alan
Re: 2 302s 6 mikes 2 camcorders any gotchas
on Nov 16, 2013 at 6:40:03 pm

Thanks Brian. This is all being used in an educational setting and I don't mind it as a learning experience and though I aim for professional practices, it's ok if I we miss fire. That said, I also will add to the program what I can when I can.

I did a search on-line for the Zoom H6 and it seems pretty impressive for a small recorder. I have a sony but it accepts only one mini-plug. The H6 with an accessory has 6 xlrs inputs on 6 channels. Wow! It's now on my wish list.

Everything is bought with grant money and opportunities tend to come once a year. This year I've concentrated on finishing our studio and moving to P2 camcorders.

I've wanted a SD mixer/recorder for a while and when funding becomes available I will look into it and adding a H6 or whatever is the best in its class at the time. We are also just got a Canon 5D and it would be great for those shoots.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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Ty Ford
Re: 2 302s 6 mikes 2 camcorders any gotchas
on Nov 15, 2013 at 1:38:02 pm

HI Craig,

I don't know which mics you'll be using and where you plan to put them, but you may also run into phase/polarity problems simply because camera A's mics are over by camera A and camera B's mics are by Camera B.

Regards,

Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum Leader

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford's Blog


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John Fishback
Re: 2 302s 6 mikes 2 camcorders any gotchas
on Nov 15, 2013 at 4:08:42 pm

A note about sync. If you want hard sync both cameras need to be fed a reference signal such as video black or tri-level sync. Then if you feed timecode to each camera sync should be rock solid.

John

MacPro 8-core 2.8GHz, 16 GB RAM, OS 10.8.4, QT10.1, Kona 3, Dual Cinema 23, ATI Radeon HD 5870, 24" TV-Logic Monitor, ATTO ExpressSAS R380 RAID Adapter, PDE enclosure with 8-drive 6TB RAID 5
FCS 3 (FCP 7.0.3, Motion 4.0.3, Comp 3.5.3, DVDSP 4.2.2, Color 1.5.3)
FCP-X 10.0.9, Motion 5.0.7, Compressor 4.0.7

Pro Tools HD 10 w SYNC IO & 192 Digital I/O, Yamaha DM1000, Millennia Media HV-3C, Neumann U87, Schoeps Mk41 mics, Genelec DSP Monitors, Prima CDQ120 ISDN


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Peter Groom
Re: 2 302s 6 mikes 2 camcorders any gotchas
on Nov 15, 2013 at 6:41:26 pm

Hi - I agree, but I was working on the presumption that, as were having this discussion at all, jam syncing timecode to cameras and ref video prob isnt on the cards.
Peter

Post Production Dubbing Mixer


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Craig Alan
Re: 2 302s 6 mikes 2 camcorders any gotchas
on Nov 16, 2013 at 6:59:07 pm

Thanks John,
We are putting together a fly pack with a panasonic video mixer and a Mackie Onyx 1220i audio mixer. The recording device is a AJA KI PRO.
I would like to add a SD recorder when funding becomes avail.
What would your advise for a tri-level sync?

would this do the trick: AJA Video Systems Inc GEN10
HD/SD Sync Generator, Blackburst and Tri-level Sync Generator

I see more expensive units. A one you prefer and pros?

Where would this fit in the chain? Will it work with the set up we have so far?

I'll do a search for a tutorial on using a try-level sync but if you know of one please refer me.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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Brian Reynolds
Re: 2 302s 6 mikes 2 camcorders any gotchas
on Nov 16, 2013 at 7:26:23 pm

Why tri level sync? The mixer has its own sync, the audio mixer doesn't require sync and the recorder will record without an external sync.....
P2 cards for the camera? The AVCHD format on SD cards is much more cost effective.


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Craig Alan
Re: 2 302s 6 mikes 2 camcorders any gotchas
on Nov 18, 2013 at 1:21:53 am

[Brian Reynolds] "Why tri level sync? The mixer has its own sync,"

The mixer will mix multi cams live with one video output to the KI PRO.

But what if we want to capture each of the cams with say two tracks of audio each and have them all be synced in post?

Remember I don't have the audio recorder yet.

Will the panasonic mixer sync multiple cams so that we won't run into any audio sync issues? Syncing to a single video frame is not a concern.

What I would like to do is a live mix using the mixer but also record to the P2 cards of each cam and do a multicam edit. This will allow students to practice live mixing and multicam editing.

[Brian Reynolds] "The AVCHD format on SD cards is much more cost effective"

That's true but I really like the AG-HPX250PJ and the P2 cards are very robust and less likely to get damaged or stolen - doubt any students own P2 cams. There were already 3 of these cams when I arrived and it made sense to add matching cams rather than start again. These will be getting a lot of use. I have enough cards so I can capture one set while we use another. Panasonic just came out with a mini-version and adapter so the smaller cheaper ones fit in the older slots.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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John Fishback
Re: 2 302s 6 mikes 2 camcorders any gotchas
on Nov 17, 2013 at 12:34:54 am

The Gen 10 is excellent. We have one in our kit. It's very flexible and will generate both SD sync & tri-level sync. BTW, the KiPro will down-convert to SD in real time. You could capture it in your NLE.

John

MacPro 8-core 2.8GHz, 16 GB RAM, OS 10.8.4, QT10.1, Kona 3, Dual Cinema 23, ATI Radeon HD 5870, 24" TV-Logic Monitor, ATTO ExpressSAS R380 RAID Adapter, PDE enclosure with 8-drive 6TB RAID 5
FCS 3 (FCP 7.0.3, Motion 4.0.3, Comp 3.5.3, DVDSP 4.2.2, Color 1.5.3)
FCP-X 10.0.9, Motion 5.0.7, Compressor 4.0.7

Pro Tools HD 10 w SYNC IO & 192 Digital I/O, Yamaha DM1000, Millennia Media HV-3C, Neumann U87, Schoeps Mk41 mics, Genelec DSP Monitors, Prima CDQ120 ISDN


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Craig Alan
Re: 2 302s 6 mikes 2 camcorders any gotchas
on Nov 17, 2013 at 12:52:18 am

Thanks John,

I'll do a search for the Gen 10.

I find more and more uses for the Ki Pro.

When I said SD recorder, I meant sound devices audio recorder for multiple tracks.

Or was this an audio conversion for the Ki Pro you are suggesting?

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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John Fishback
Re: 2 302s 6 mikes 2 camcorders any gotchas
on Nov 17, 2013 at 3:28:03 pm

Sorry. I misunderstood. Thinking of sync I thought SD = standard def. A Sound Deviced recorder makes a lot more sense for audio.

John

MacPro 8-core 2.8GHz, 16 GB RAM, OS 10.8.4, QT10.1, Kona 3, Dual Cinema 23, ATI Radeon HD 5870, 24" TV-Logic Monitor, ATTO ExpressSAS R380 RAID Adapter, PDE enclosure with 8-drive 6TB RAID 5
FCS 3 (FCP 7.0.3, Motion 4.0.3, Comp 3.5.3, DVDSP 4.2.2, Color 1.5.3)
FCP-X 10.0.9, Motion 5.0.7, Compressor 4.0.7

Pro Tools HD 10 w SYNC IO & 192 Digital I/O, Yamaha DM1000, Millennia Media HV-3C, Neumann U87, Schoeps Mk41 mics, Genelec DSP Monitors, Prima CDQ120 ISDN


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Craig Alan
Re: 2 302s 6 mikes 2 camcorders any gotchas
on Nov 17, 2013 at 5:52:01 pm

Thanks John,

1) If I added the sound devices recorder would there still be a need for the AJA GEN10 sync?

2) If I did get the Sound Devices 664 Six-Channel Portable Production Mixer/Recorder or
Sound Devices 788T-SSD 8-Channel Portable Solid-State Audio Recorder would it completely replace the mackie we have in there now? Or is the mackie still worth it for feeding powered speakers or perhaps the Ki Pro for a fast stereo playback before editing the sound from the sound devices recorder?

3) The HPX250 P2 cams fyi have gen lock inputs which I assume is what you plug the gen10 outputs into?

4) And if the gen10 was used, I would not have sync issues with my cameras down to sub-frame levels for sound acquisition if I were outputting from two cams into the flypack fed by two field mixers?

5) What device plugs into the AES-11 input(?) of the AJA gen10?

I'm just trying to figure out what I could get at different price points since I never know what funding might be available. And I always need to research so I get all the little accessories with each device since I have no standing budget. You know like enough HD_SDI cables, power supplies, converters rack mount brackets etc etc.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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John Fishback
Re: 2 302s 6 mikes 2 camcorders any gotchas
on Nov 17, 2013 at 7:22:36 pm

Craig, here are answers to your question.

1. Yes. The ref signal times/syncs the cams together. Simply put, with ref each cam starts recording each frame at exactly the same time. However, you still need to feed timecode to each camera. With only 2 cameras you can use one cam as the master and feed its timecode out to the slave's timecode in. But, you always have to start the master cam before the slave.

On larger shoots it's more common to have a timecode generator referenced to master clock (see #5) which sends timecode to every device.

2. Probably, but not being a location sound mixer, wait for someone else to better answer that. The Mackie might give you more monitoring flexibility.

3. Yes.

4. You'd be fine if timecode is set up as above.

5. AES-11 is word clock or master clock output. This would be fed to digital audio devices and the timecode generator so they're all in sync with the video reference generated by the GEN10. All the sync comes from the GEN10 - audio and video.

John

MacPro 8-core 2.8GHz, 16 GB RAM, OS 10.8.4, QT10.1, Kona 3, Dual Cinema 23, ATI Radeon HD 5870, 24" TV-Logic Monitor, ATTO ExpressSAS R380 RAID Adapter, PDE enclosure with 8-drive 6TB RAID 5
FCS 3 (FCP 7.0.3, Motion 4.0.3, Comp 3.5.3, DVDSP 4.2.2, Color 1.5.3)
FCP-X 10.0.9, Motion 5.0.7, Compressor 4.0.7

Pro Tools HD 10 w SYNC IO & 192 Digital I/O, Yamaha DM1000, Millennia Media HV-3C, Neumann U87, Schoeps Mk41 mics, Genelec DSP Monitors, Prima CDQ120 ISDN


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Craig Alan
Re: 2 302s 6 mikes 2 camcorders any gotchas
on Nov 18, 2013 at 12:59:39 am

Thanks so much John, one follow up:

[John Fishback] " AES-11 is word clock or master clock output"

which is sent from the video mixer?

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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John Fishback
Re: 2 302s 6 mikes 2 camcorders any gotchas
on Nov 18, 2013 at 3:59:42 am

I forgot to mention you'd also need to send video ref to the visual mixer. AES-11 would only go to an external timecode generator or a digital audio recorder or workstation. That's how every device is synced. It all starts with the GEN10 as it generates all the sync signal needed.

John

MacPro 8-core 2.8GHz, 16 GB RAM, OS 10.8.4, QT10.1, Kona 3, Dual Cinema 23, ATI Radeon HD 5870, 24" TV-Logic Monitor, ATTO ExpressSAS R380 RAID Adapter, PDE enclosure with 8-drive 6TB RAID 5
FCS 3 (FCP 7.0.3, Motion 4.0.3, Comp 3.5.3, DVDSP 4.2.2, Color 1.5.3)
FCP-X 10.0.9, Motion 5.0.7, Compressor 4.0.7

Pro Tools HD 10 w SYNC IO & 192 Digital I/O, Yamaha DM1000, Millennia Media HV-3C, Neumann U87, Schoeps Mk41 mics, Genelec DSP Monitors, Prima CDQ120 ISDN


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Craig Alan
Re: 2 302s 6 mikes 2 camcorders any gotchas
on Nov 18, 2013 at 5:09:51 pm

[John Fishback] "I forgot to mention you'd also need to send video ref to the visual mixer. AES-11 would only go to an external timecode generator or a digital audio recorder or workstation. That's how every device is synced. It all starts with the GEN10 as it generates all the sync signal needed.
"


Thanks John.

1. Is there any software configuration needed when using the GEN10?

2. Ok. So if we get one of the sound devices recorders we need to go time code generator out the recorder to the GEN10 and then the outputs of the GEN10 take care of the rest?

3. If we don't have the recorder we could use a time code generator (which seems like a decent chunk of the cost of the audio mixer/recorder.

4. Any recommendations on a dedicated time code generator?

5. Now you mention a work station. If I add a macbook pro into the mix, would that do the trick? Also how would I send the timecode out the computer to the mixer and camcorders? A card of some sort?

6. I assume the REF port (#40) on the mixer receives the output of the GEN10?

7. Why does the mixer have 2 of these? Or does the generator go into the REF port of the mixer which uses the second REF port to pass the signal along to the GEN10 which then distributes it to the camcorders?



Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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John Fishback
Re: 2 302s 6 mikes 2 camcorders any gotchas
on Nov 18, 2013 at 9:07:09 pm

Okay, here goes.

1. No software config for the GEN10 that I know of. All settings are with the DIP switches. That's explained in the manual. Also, AJA tech support is legendary so you can always check with them.

2. The GEN 10 sends word clock to your timecode generator (to sync it up) which is then sent to all the cams, usually using a DA. Some folks will daisy chain timecode from cam to cam, but direct runs are better.

3. See #2. Something has to generate timecode.

4. A couple of names of companies that make tc gens are Denecke and Ambient, but I don't use these so, perhaps, one of the location sound guys can chime in here.

5. Using Pro Tools as an example, it has to have a device called a Sync HD which receives word clock or ref and then syncs Pro Tools to it. This is a bit involved and expensive.

6. Yes, the ref input of the visual mixer (switcher) gets the ref from the GEN10. The second connector is a loop through of ref. You could send that to another device, but, as the GEN10 has multiple ref outputs, it's better to run those directly to each of your devices.

7. See 6.

You should look in your area for a consultant who can help you with these issues. That person might be at a pro audio/video retailer or be a freelance sound or video guy.

There's one last thing I'll mention. Sound Devices makes the PIX240i. It records just like the KiPro, but also generates sync and timecode. It also has a built-in monitor. I'd call Sound Devices and ask for a detailed explanation to make sure it would do all the above while also recording. If it does, you don't need the GEN10, but would need a DA to deliver the ref to all devices.

John

MacPro 8-core 2.8GHz, 16 GB RAM, OS 10.8.4, QT10.1, Kona 3, Dual Cinema 23, ATI Radeon HD 5870, 24" TV-Logic Monitor, ATTO ExpressSAS R380 RAID Adapter, PDE enclosure with 8-drive 6TB RAID 5
FCS 3 (FCP 7.0.3, Motion 4.0.3, Comp 3.5.3, DVDSP 4.2.2, Color 1.5.3)
FCP-X 10.0.9, Motion 5.0.7, Compressor 4.0.7

Pro Tools HD 10 w SYNC IO & 192 Digital I/O, Yamaha DM1000, Millennia Media HV-3C, Neumann U87, Schoeps Mk41 mics, Genelec DSP Monitors, Prima CDQ120 ISDN


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Craig Alan
Re: 2 302s 6 mikes 2 camcorders any gotchas
on Nov 19, 2013 at 12:50:52 am

Thanks so much John. I have a much better understanding now. Since AJA makes the Gen10 and we have two of their KiPros I'll give then a call and see what they recommend. Now, at least, I know what to ask and can more or less follow the advice/connections. I should also be getting some training from Panasonic, so I'll ask the trainer about this as well.

[John Fishback] "2. The GEN 10 sends word clock to your timecode generator (to sync it up) which is then sent to all the cams, usually using a DA. Some folks will daisy chain timecode from cam to cam, but direct runs are better."

According to GEN10 product description:
Multiple outputs can synchronize entire systems without requiring a Sync DA

It has 6 outputs so I imagine it can support 5 cams plus the video mixer.

[John Fishback] "3. See #2. Something has to generate timecode."

I got that but meant that I'd rather put that money towards a mixer/recorder I want anyway than buying the time code generator sooner and the recorder later.

Thanks again.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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Craig Alan
Re: 2 302s 6 mikes 2 camcorders any gotchas
on Nov 16, 2013 at 7:23:03 pm

Hi Ty,

Gotcha. I will mike the 3 key talents with cam A and use cam B with a couple more but plan on not using them in the edit given Peter's advice. The limitation left is we'll need to get a good mix live on the two guitars since they will both go to one channel on our camcorder. The vocals will go to the other channel.

MIKEs available:

SHURE sm58 - we have 3 of them
SHURE sm57- we have only one
AT 4053 - we have 5 of them (we have I think 1 4053B and the rest are 4053A).

We also have other ENG dynamics but doubt they would be an improvement.

We also have Sennheiser G2-G3 kits with plug-in transmitters for dynamic mikes but not the units that supply phantom. I like using them since there is less set up given our need to set up shoot strike all within 1 1/2 hours. I already have frequencies that are ste for each kit that is getting good results and I have the mikes mounted on stands in storage. Our mixer bags are set up with the receivers.

But I'm open to all suggestions. And it's not that big a deal to set up the xlr cords. I can run the electric to the kino flos from one side and the xlrs away from their path. Striking is longer with more cords to coil. No big deal though if you agree that the 4053s will get better results.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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