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oleg zinkovetsky
shotgun mic for indoors/outdoors aplications
on Oct 10, 2013 at 12:35:35 am

hi everybody. i'm new in microphone world and now looking to buy a shotgun mic for indoors/outdoors interviews. i can't afford to buy few different mics, so need some kind of magic solution or at least to get as much as possible close to it. my current choses ntg-3, mkh 60, mkh 8060 and sancen cs3, but maybe i'm loosing something.
please help!
thanxx a lot


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Ty Ford
Re: shotgun mic for indoors/outdoors aplications
on Oct 10, 2013 at 3:28:13 am

Hello Oleg and welcome to the Cow Audio Forum.

One of your first lessons is that what you want doesn't happen

Here's why:





Why do you think you need a shotgun?

Regards,

Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum Leader

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford's Blog


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oleg zinkovetsky
Re: shotgun mic for indoors/outdoors aplications
on Oct 10, 2013 at 12:55:32 pm

hi. thanx for reply. i'll need shotgun for two major reasons. first, i'll not be able to use lav in a lot of cases,
and second, i think the shotgun sounds better, more alive and not that chesty as lav.
but the main reason that i'll not be able to wire with lav every person i gonna interview.
thank you


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Ty Ford
Re: shotgun mic for indoors/outdoors aplications
on Oct 10, 2013 at 2:41:37 pm

Oleg,

As I mentioned, please watch the video. Shotguns are NOT indicated for most internal applications.

Regards,

Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum Leader

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford's Blog


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Bob Kessler
Re: shotgun mic for indoors/outdoors aplications
on Oct 10, 2013 at 3:28:10 pm

If you are willing to spend almost $1,500 on the Sanken, yet are considering the NTG-3, why not get the NTG-3 ($700) and for your hyper either the Audix SCX-1 ($500) or the Audio-Technica AT4053b ($600)? Either way you are still under the price of the CS3, and would have one mic for indoors and one mic for outdoors. In fact, you would have enough left over to add a lav to your kit.

BTW, quality lavs don't sound "chesty" when placed properly, and, even if you don't like the sound, can be sculpted with EQ in audio post.

Are you a "one-man-band" or will you have someone to assist you with the audio?

Peace,

Bob
____________________________________________________________________
Filmmaking is the art of the invisible;
If anyone notices your work you haven't done your job right.


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oleg zinkovetsky
Re: shotgun mic for indoors/outdoors aplications
on Oct 10, 2013 at 9:01:41 pm

i do have lav. i have the sen ew set, but didn't like the me2 that comes with it and i've the new got rode couple of weeks ago. the rode is much!!! better. but my situation is a little bit unusual bc i'll not able to wire the person with lav, and the mic gonna be in about 3-4 feet from the person, but never closer then 2'.


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Ty Ford
Re: shotgun mic for indoors/outdoors aplications
on Oct 11, 2013 at 2:26:12 am

Why so far away?

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford's Blog


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oleg zinkovetsky
Re: shotgun mic for indoors/outdoors aplications
on Oct 11, 2013 at 4:00:37 am

thanxx for the link, it was very interesting and helpful.
i thought about shotguns first of all bc of the distance between mic and person. why so faraway...
i can't talk about this project now bc it's still project and nothing been shot and published yet, but basically partially bc of security reasons and partially bc some of interviews gonna be with spiritual leaders and they simply not allowed to wire them with lavs or even hold mics too close to them. my life could be much easier if not all those things :) but not that interesting...:)
is this 3' usable distance for hypers?


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Ty Ford
Re: shotgun mic for indoors/outdoors aplications
on Oct 11, 2013 at 12:11:02 pm

Oleg,

Good sound is a game of inches, not feet. The best boom mics begin to sound like the worst boom mics at anything over 2 feet.

If they want to sound good and connect to their intended audiences, you have to get in close.

You can't be a shy boy and get good audio. :)

Regards,

Ty Ford

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford's Blog


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oleg zinkovetsky
Re: shotgun mic for indoors/outdoors aplications
on Oct 11, 2013 at 4:35:44 pm

Yep, I know, but it's simply impossible to argue with security similar to secret service. if not that, I would do things the way I did til now, just concealed lav or ntg3 or 416 on boom on stand, simple.
But let me ask u another question. Maybe it sounds stupeid, but I've never used hyper before. Why everybody uses hyper indoors, not outdoors? And why everybody usually have shotgun for outdoors?


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Ty Ford
Re: shotgun mic for indoors/outdoors aplications
on Oct 11, 2013 at 10:06:40 pm

"Why everybody uses hyper indoors, not outdoors? And why everybody usually have shotgun for outdoors?"

The reason is in my video.

Regards,

Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum Leader

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford's Blog


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oleg zinkovetsky
Re: shotgun mic for indoors/outdoors aplications
on Oct 11, 2013 at 10:14:22 pm

Yes, I understand the point about indoors, but why not to use hyper outdoors? Better derectivity, better off axis rejection, so why not to use it outdoors also?
Sorry to drive u crazy with this kind of questions, but I'm new in this kind of sound and never used hypers before.


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Ty Ford
Re: shotgun mic for indoors/outdoors aplications
on Oct 11, 2013 at 10:39:53 pm

I was crazy long before I met you.:)

You can use a hyper outside. In fact, if you're anywhere there's a lot of middle and low frequency noise around you (traffic, machinery,, etc.)and you want to isolate the voice from the noise, you're better off with a hyper or super.

The Schoeps cmc641 is one of the best. I've used it outside and inside. Outside, with a black top parking lot on one side and a huge glass window on the other, a hyper or super will do better than a shotgun.

Shotguns are said to have "reach." Well they do have high frequency directivity, not no where near as much as much directivity with mids and low, so that stuff gets into you audio in a very unpretty way.

If you can't get a schoeps get an AT4053B or Audix scx-1 HC and get wind gear; a zeppelin and a fuzzy.

Regards,

Ty Ford
Crazy Cow Audio Forum Leader

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford's Blog


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oleg zinkovetsky
Re: shotgun mic for indoors/outdoors aplications
on Oct 11, 2013 at 11:13:33 pm

Thanxxx a lot. Last question. Is sen mkh 50 or 8050 is a good choice? My friend is sen authorised dealler, so can get a dealer price for it.


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Ty Ford
Re: shotgun mic for indoors/outdoors aplications
on Oct 12, 2013 at 1:33:12 am

Then listen for yourself to both. I find the 8050 has too much bottom and too much top. The MKH50 is a better choice.

Regards,

Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum Leader

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford's Blog


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oleg zinkovetsky
Re: shotgun mic for indoors/outdoors aplications
on Oct 12, 2013 at 10:13:42 pm

thanxx a lot. the last question if you don't mind. mkh is rf bias, all others are not. is that the problem? does audix for example picking up same rf interference? cellphones and wifi are everywhere, so it kinda worry me.


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Ty Ford
Re: shotgun mic for indoors/outdoors aplications
on Oct 13, 2013 at 3:24:17 am

The NTG-3 is ALSO an RF condenser.

that has noting to do with cellphones or other rf devices. It has to dose seem to make it less prone to moisture problems.

Good to be worried, because interference is increasing everywhere.

Start reading and learning: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microphone

Regards,

Ty Ford

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford's Blog


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Craig Alan
Re: shotgun mic for indoors/outdoors aplications
on Oct 13, 2013 at 4:52:06 pm

Having taken Ty's advice a while back I have used all three:
the senn's (I inherited from the guy who ran the studio I teach in before me);
the Schoeps; and the ATs.
The Schoeps I use when we are doing one production with a small group and it feels ultra disciplined. Best sound of the bunch but expensive. And I only have one. came in this wooden box like it was a collector's item and I treat it that way. If you can afford it, get it.
The AT's are my go-to hypers. Never disappoints. The Senns I use for beginners. Since what you discribe feels like somewhat trying circumstances, I'd go with the AT's. They are small, solid build, easy to manage, a great deal for their price. As well as a wind fussy, get a high quality shock mount like RYCOTE INV-HG Lyre Shockmount (41118). And if interference is not a factor, I'd use a butt plug transmitter on the mike. Now you have a very discrete small form factor that might be less threatening than a long shot gun and xlr cord. Ty is correct that 2 feet is way better than 3 because the mike is sensitive and will pick up all sorts of background noise; but the closer to your subject, the more the voice of your subject dominates. The sound quality is very good, Another factor is how well the mike is aimed at the subject. Wear headphones and have the boom pole operator wear headphones and their own headphone amp. Not sure how 2 feet is a threat but 3 feet is ok?

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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Ty Ford
Re: shotgun mic for indoors/outdoors aplications
on Oct 13, 2013 at 5:16:58 pm

Craig,

Thanks for your support.:)

And not any junk headphones, get Sony MDR7506 or ATH-M50. Note: Both Sony and AT make lesser headphones at cheaper prices. Don't go there or you will miss hearing something that may end up on your time line.

Regards,

Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum Leader

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford's Blog


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Craig Alan
Re: shotgun mic for indoors/outdoors aplications
on Oct 13, 2013 at 5:40:46 pm

I have the Sony's and if I were to buy today I'd get the ATH-M50S That's S for straight cable. I hate the coiled cable. Doesn't store well and gets tangled with anything it touches. And the coil over time gets less tight defeating the only advantage it has. My only other gripe with the Sony's is the ear pads are a bit too small for my head. But what you hear is what you get. Many phones sound better because they sweeten the sound. Not what you want for monitoring.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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oleg zinkovetsky
Re: shotgun mic for indoors/outdoors aplications
on Oct 16, 2013 at 3:58:21 pm

yea, i know)) i had sen hd 25-i-ii, which is great. a bit aggressive and narrow sound stage, but beside it very good sound. i lost it a month ago. i gonna check m50 next week. also sen 70 om, drain batteries faster then other ones. i guess, m50 is 32 om. never liked sony)
thanxx


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Ty Ford
Re: shotgun mic for indoors/outdoors aplications
on Oct 16, 2013 at 4:27:04 pm

It's Ohm not Om.

The Sony MDR7506.

Buy now.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford's Blog


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oleg zinkovetsky
Re: shotgun mic for indoors/outdoors aplications
on Oct 16, 2013 at 3:51:40 pm

thanx a lot.
i heard at has a lot of handling noise problems.
next week i gonna rent this one and audix to check and compare.


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Craig Alan
Re: shotgun mic for indoors/outdoors aplications
on Oct 16, 2013 at 11:31:29 pm

Not sure you are getting the point. You want something to monitor your sound, what you hear is what you capture, not something that will sound good in a side by side comparison. Take Ty's advice. I actually wear a pair of Senn's when I'm editing but switch to the Sony's when I'm editing sound. And I always wear the Sony's when I'm filming. Handling noise is usually caused by a bad connection - either the headphone jack or plug. Or tangled up interconnects. But what you need to hear is any mike or xlr or reception handling noise and any b.g. noise and any buzz or interference, or or or. That needs to be addressed. And post is too late. Seriously, the audio forum is one of the most consistently informative sites on the net. You can get wildly different opinions by very talented people in other forums. And I'm not saying there isn't a part of good sound acquisition that is more art than craft. But for many shoots, you just want good clean sound without serious flaws. And the leaders on this forum have years of experience and are generous in sharing what they have learned. More shoots are ruined by audio problems than visual problems. Get one of the headphones Ty suggests and buy another pair for your listening pleasure.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.


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oleg zinkovetsky
Re: shotgun mic for indoors/outdoors aplications
on Oct 17, 2013 at 2:14:05 pm

i understand the point.
i have grado just for listening.
i had sen hd 25-I-II bc of most flat response on the market and great noise isolation. at m50 is basically a same, but less aggressive and a bit less of noise isolation. at least for my ears. sony is a worth out of three, but u can hear everything, and its half price of m50.
as i said, i'm new in sound world. i was photographer, director and manager for last 20 years, and i've never got into details about sound.
and i hate post, based on photography background, i have to do everything as best as possible during shooting and not to spend all life next to comp)).
i really appreciate a lot the experience and deep knowledge of sound professionals and a help i can get here.


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