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Jacob Faga
recording separate audio for canon 5d
on Mar 24, 2010 at 10:13:40 am

Hi all

Ive been asked to record/boom operate audio for a short film. The DOP is using a canon 5d or 7d. The Short is low budget and the producer is looking to hire or if they can get the audio equip for free. As a cam op myself I understand the importance of audio. Although I understand the principles of recording audio and work on audio in post, I have never done this position before in production and am finding it a welcome challenge and good experience.

After understanding that the canon 5d is a great still cam and shoot great vids but is not a real video cam and that the in-built audio system cannot be reliable for recording audio. I am doing my own research on this and I guess will come up with some barriers which I want to iron out before shoot on the 1st of April.

Firstly, I am not sure what field mixer to use? and would like your help on a suitable field mixer with low budget in mind. Maybe at the production meeting this Sat I can recommend a unit of sorts. But if the producer comes up with their own gear then will have to go with that.

I can see 2 scenario's that may come up; a field mixer that can record and one that cant record and needs a vid cam to record on.

If I get the one that cannot record for budget reasons or otherwise then Im gonna take along my EX1 to receive the audio from the mixer but will have to probably carry mixer and vid cam in two bags.

Your help or any advise would be much appreciated.

Kind regards

Jake Auckland, NZ

PS thanks to audio pro's for audio tuts and advise and tips for audio!


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Jon Goodman
Re: recording separate audio for canon 5d
on Mar 24, 2010 at 1:27:08 pm

Hey Jake,
The only mixer that I know of that records is the Sound Devices 552. 5 inputs 2 track recorder built in.
Certainly, I would use a mixer and send a feed to the camera as well as a recorder. Zoom H4N's are popular inexpensive recorders. There are a number of mixers you could choose. I use Sound Devices 302 and 442 mixers.
SQN,PSC, Wendt, Shure all make mixers; it depends on budget, of course. If I were you I'd rent.
Cheers
Jon


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cowcowcowcowcow
David Jones
Re: recording separate audio for canon 5d
on Mar 24, 2010 at 2:06:37 pm

Hi Jake,

I would echo what Jon said; the Sound Devices 552 is the only mixer/recorder combo, and IMO is your best bet.

If you go with just a mixer, you CAN run it into the 5D but I believe you'll need this cable: http://www.trewaudio.com/store/product.php?productid=147&cat=21&page=1

I've never shot with the Canon 5D but based on what I've read about the latest firmware (which allows for manual control and records 48kHz/24bit), it should be as reliable as the video it takes. If you go with a seperate recorder, and you can't afford a full-sized one, then rent.

Best,

Dave J


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John Fishback
Re: recording separate audio for canon 5d
on Mar 24, 2010 at 6:10:26 pm

As David suggests make sure the camera is using the latest firmware and is shooting 23.976 or 29.97, and not shooting 24 or 30 fps. If the latter rates are used the editor will have sync challenges.

John

MacPro 8-core 2.8GHz 8 GB RAM OS 10.5.8 QT7.6.4 Kona 3 Dual Cinema 23 ATI Radeon HD 3870, 24" TV-Logic Monitor, ATTO ExpressSAS R380 RAID Adapter, PDE enclosure with 8-drive 6TB RAID 5
FCS 3 (FCP 7.0.1, Motion 4.0.1, Comp 3.5.1, DVDSP 4.2.2, Color 1.5.1)

Pro Tools HD w SYNC IO & 192 Digital I/O, Yamaha DM1000, Millennia Media HV-3C, Neumann U87, Schoeps Mk41 mics, Genelec Monitors, PrimaLT ISDN


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Jacob Faga
Re: recording separate audio for canon 5d
on Mar 30, 2010 at 10:41:04 am

Hi John,

Soz about my reply with PAL and NTSC as they dont apply to your advice on frame rate as you have correctly pointed out in this suitation.

Could you help me clarify a problem with frame rate and sync in post.

I finally have the sound gear that has been supplied due to budget constraints.

I have been given a Sony PCM D50 recorder and after testing found it to be not suitable for the film shoot I then advised the producer that this wont cut it for the indie film and ask that they can hire a field mixer, the audio development AD260 for a great price which they agreed. The AD260 needs a cam to record audio and the DP prefers to not have cables running off it because the shooting technique is handheld and glidecam with no sticks.

I guess I would have to take my EX1 and use that as a recorder and can run the D50 off the mixer as backup recorder but dont know if this is possible?

The question is im using the EX1 as a recorder and the EX1 only records at 25 or 50p and the DP told me that he will be shooting at 29.97 or 30fps. Im guessing this will be a problem? please advise what to do if any.

many thanks in advance

Jake



I have done some tests on D50 and still have background rustling even with a



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John Fishback
Re: recording separate audio for canon 5d
on Mar 30, 2010 at 9:41:08 pm

There are a lot of variables so I'm not sure how to advise you. In this kind of situation I'd test the workflow before the shoot. See if you can get together with the DP and run off 10 minutes of footage. Just let everything sit in one place. Be sure to talk all the while. Then import the video and audio into the edit system and see if they sync. Make sure the audio, after being imported, is 48kHz 16/24 bit (it should be as that's what the ex-1` records). And make sure every take is slated with a timecode slate or a clapper. And, again, as Bill mentioned, be sure to record audio with the camera mic. If all else fails, it'll will make syncing easier.

John

MacPro 8-core 2.8GHz 8 GB RAM OS 10.5.8 QT7.6.4 Kona 3 Dual Cinema 23 ATI Radeon HD 3870, 24" TV-Logic Monitor, ATTO ExpressSAS R380 RAID Adapter, PDE enclosure with 8-drive 6TB RAID 5
FCS 3 (FCP 7.0.2, Motion 4.0.2, Comp 3.5.2, DVDSP 4.2.2, Color 1.5.2)

Pro Tools HD w SYNC IO & 192 Digital I/O, Yamaha DM1000, Millennia Media HV-3C, Neumann U87, Schoeps Mk41 mics, Genelec Monitors, PrimaLT ISDN


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Jacob Faga
Re: recording separate audio for canon 5d
on Mar 30, 2010 at 10:39:37 pm

Thanks John its what I thought would have to do.

I guess if there are sync issues I would need to adjust speed in post by percentage.

Thanks again for your time.

Jake


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Mark Baldwin
Re: recording separate audio for canon 5d
on Sep 15, 2010 at 4:35:54 am

Will the Canon 5d mk II shoot 23.976?


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John Fishback
Re: recording separate audio for canon 5d
on Sep 15, 2010 at 3:25:27 pm

With the latest firmware it does.

John

MacPro 8-core 2.8GHz 8 GB RAM OS 10.5.8 QT7.6.4 Kona 3 Dual Cinema 23 ATI Radeon HD 3870, 24" TV-Logic Monitor, ATTO ExpressSAS R380 RAID Adapter, PDE enclosure with 8-drive 6TB RAID 5
FCS 3 (FCP 7.0.2, Motion 4.0.2, Comp 3.5.2, DVDSP 4.2.2, Color 1.5.2)

Pro Tools HD w SYNC IO & 192 Digital I/O, Yamaha DM1000, Millennia Media HV-3C, Neumann U87, Schoeps Mk41 mics, Genelec Monitors, PrimaLT ISDN


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Ty Ford
Re: recording separate audio for canon 5d
on Mar 24, 2010 at 5:53:15 pm

Greetings Jake and welcome to the Cow Audio Forum.

Whenever I attend low budget/no budget indie screenings in my town, the obvious lack of attention to the audio is pretty obvious. You don't mention any shooting/scene breakdowns, so it's difficult to say whether or not your boom (which mics, btw) is all you'll need to do the job or if wireless lavs have to be used to make some scenes happen.

The Sound Devices 552 is a top piece of gear. I doubt your budget can handle it. There is also the Cantar, BTW, which records and mixes; also way over your budget.

I'd be a little wary about accepting the position of low/no budget sound person on an indie (although I'm sure you'll learn a lot). There's a lot to the craft of good location audio. Too much to go into on this forum. If the producer doesn't know good from bad, you'll probably be fine. That said, try a Sound Devices 302 and Zoom H2, H4 or Sony M10.

Regards,

Ty Ford



Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide






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Bill Davis
Re: recording separate audio for canon 5d
on Mar 24, 2010 at 7:32:11 pm


Even if you decide to go "double system" and record your audio to a separate channel - make SURE you record a wild track on the 5dMkii's card via it's built in microphone. While it's quality will be generally terrible, you CAN often use it - with or without other software - in order to make syncing your wild sound tracks to the double system tracks easier.

One of the truly great tools recently marketed to work with Final Cut Pro, for example, is Plural Eyes - which syncs soundtracks via their waveforms automatically. It can't do it's job if there's not soundtrack - even if it's a very poor one - available and locked to the visuals in order to provide the primary sound template.






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Jacob Faga
Re: recording separate audio for canon 5d
on Mar 25, 2010 at 8:35:44 am

Many Thanks to all the guru's and your responses with my question and situation.

I hope this will be read by the others that responded.

I will take the advise of the different field mixers offered and do some research on the models and the specs of each recommended mixer.

In regards to the firmware update on the 5d I will find that out on Sat with the owner and pending that, I hope I can run it off the 5d as suggested, thanks for the link for cable needed.

In regards to NTSC. In NZ we shoot PAL and I think shooting in 23.976 or 29.97 may not apply in regards to sync in post but will match frame rate recordings, I may just run a test just to be safe.

Scenes? Well I have read the script and already can hear sounds and thinking of Foley, ambient and boom positioning etc. There are your basic dialogue with actors, indoor, in car and outdoor scenes. Car driving into shots, doors etc. I guess with indie film of low budgets I would have one all rounder directional mic supplied. I thinking of taken a c stand with pieces of carpet to soften sound if it gets a bit echoey and do the usual record foleys b4 as you all would know prep is key.

Thanks for plural eyes Ive seen the promo on it and yes it will make our lives less stressful and I guess I would be able to hear my wife more lol.

Thanks Again to the gurus of audio your wisdom is priceless.

Jake


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Ty Ford
Re: recording separate audio for canon 5d
on Mar 25, 2010 at 12:37:21 pm

[Jacob Faga] "Scenes? Well I have read the script and already can hear sounds and thinking of Foley, ambient and boom positioning etc. There are your basic dialogue with actors, indoor, in car and outdoor scenes. Car driving into shots, doors etc. I guess with indie film of low budgets I would have one all rounder directional mic supplied. I thinking of taken a c stand with pieces of carpet to soften sound if it gets a bit echoey and do the usual record foleys b4 as you all would know prep is key. "

It's about how the shooter or director envisions the shot. If you can work it out with them so you can use a boom mic properly, then fine. It just has to be added to the list of considerations for what the shot will look like.

An "all rounder" mic will be deficient somewhere. That's the way it is. I'd go for an Audio Technica 4053B, especially if you'll be shooting more inside than out. Carpet blankets, quilts, whatever can help if draped on c-stand arms.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Want better production audio?: Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide






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